Thread: Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

Originally Posted by Oly

Add Bel Canto to the list that includes NAD and Bricasti for incorrectly advertising products as being Roon certified when they are not.

Sounds to me as if the title of this thread should have been something along the lines of:
“I Hate It When Equipment Manufacturers Lie”

Originally Posted by dminches

That has not been my experience with Roon. Even when playing local files Roon is constantly doing stuff. More to the point, if one has large library then local storage isn't possible (with a non-spinning hard drive) so using a NAS is necessary.

I too have NAS and I use Roon. The only issue that I once had was due to user error (me) with a batch of CDs that I did not rip properly.

I have absolutely no noise issues when playing ripped discs or downloaded music stored in a NAS using Roon.

That said, I decided to bypass the NAS altogether and stream my music from music services.

Now I can listen to hundreds of terabytes of music without even buying a NAS. And I hear no noise when streaming either.

It would make sense for Roon to keep the device for testing of their s/w for future releases, otherwise its impossible to quality control but I am not sure if I would technically call the certification as "free".

The recent Build 610 update, in my system, sounds better but only after I moved the library to local storage instead of NAS. One of the serious drawback of Roon that degrades the sound quality tremendously is its constant accesses to the storage device. With NAS, it creates a churn of network events that is detrimental and this has been proven time over time and also with my move to local storage. There has been several request from many of us to cache/buffer it locally but as usual it has gone into def ears.

From purely bit perfect playback s/w perspective, Roon is heavy weight due to its complexities in handling sophisticated UI management, AI, tracking, etc which are necessary evil for audio and thus needs power hungry CPUs. However, if you are DIY'ing there are ways to tame this beast somewhat partially, like processor isolation, etc.

IMO, Roon should consider an Audiophile version of the s/w with simple UI & less jazzy features, if they genuinely wants to hold onto the audiophile market (which I agree is dimunitive) as many companies (Taiko, PS Audio, etc) has started to realize sound quality issues with Roon and started to develop their own version.

Originally Posted by Swisstrips

To be clear, when indiv refer to local storage does this mean you are connected direct to DAC (no end point, streamer)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Local storage means storage that is locally connected to the Roon core. It could be internal driver (NVMe, SSD, spinning drives, SAS, etc) or external USB connected drives.

In my case, I have a DIY music server with DIY linear power supply w/ JCAT USB XE card connected directly to the DAC. No endpoint or streamer and I have gone through many of them only to find they sound less optimal with Roon if the server (running Roon core) is built and tuned carefully. The server runs Euphony. After a lot of experiments with different drives, I have settled for M.2 NVMe drives. My music is about 4Tb, so it isn't too bad.

Do they charge for certification? If not they will soon

Policy changes lately seem to have been financially driven, I’d be worried for their long term future, another reason I won’t recommit to Roon.

Originally Posted by Devg

Local storage means storage that is locally connected to the Roon core. It could be internal driver (NVMe, SSD, spinning drives, SAS, etc) or external USB connected drives.

It can also mean external Thunderbolt connected drives.

Originally Posted by Devg

Local storage means storage that is locally connected to the Roon core. It could be internal driver (NVMe, SSD, spinning drives, SAS, etc) or external USB connected drives.

In my case, I have a DIY music server with DIY linear power supply w/ JCAT USB XE card connected directly to the DAC. No endpoint or streamer and I have gone through many of them only to find they sound less optimal with Roon if the server (running Roon core) is built and tuned carefully. The server runs Euphony. After a lot of experiments with different drives, I have settled for M.2 NVMe drives. My music is about 4Tb, so it isn't too bad.

Hi Dev,

I'm particularly interested in the server you're using with Euphony OS. Is it a NUC, or what type of computer? How or where does the Roon Core get installed?

Originally Posted by Jack

Look here Stephan

Euphony

Thanks, Jack. I've spent the better part of day researching Euphony. And, I still have a number of questions, but no definitive answers. Sometimes I think I should use my professional experience to consult for companies and to help them provide information for potential customers (like me) with clear, unambiguous and definitive answers as 1) WHAT the product does 2) HOW it does it 3) WHY it works the way it does, and then, for the customer...what is the value proposition?

What I'm potentially interested in is:

1) Can I install Euphony on my Mac Mini? I don't know for sure, but the answer appears to be YES. But, I want to use it in conjunction with Roon with Roon functioning as a Server.

2) If install Euphony on Mac Mini, how do I boot up the computer? A: I don't know.

3) Do I uninstall the Roon Core I already have installed on the Mac OS partition and and re-install it on a Euphony partition? A: I don't know.

4) How do I specifically use Euphony with Roon as a server and send the music to an endpoint renderer? A: I don't know.

These are basic questions that I should be able to find answers for, but so far, have not.

Originally Posted by Puma Cat

Hi Dev,

I'm particularly interested in the server you're using with Euphony OS. Is it a NUC, or what type of computer? How or where does the Roon Core get installed?

Puma,
It's a high power server employing Xeon CPU. It runs Euphony OS and Roon core runs directly on it. In Euphony you can select which audio player you want and there are several to choose from - Roon server, Stylus, etc. I listen to Stylus most of the time for critical listening but with more and more tweaks I am finding Roon to be close match as well. The server is connected directly to the USB DAC.

Originally Posted by Puma Cat

1) Can I install Euphony on my Mac Mini? I don't know for sure, but the answer appears to be YES. But, I want to use it in conjunction with Roon with Roon functioning as a Server.

Yes and you can run Roon core.

Originally Posted by Puma Cat

2) If install Euphony on Mac Mini, how do I boot up the computer? A: I don't know.

For Mac, its better to install bootcamp and go from there. But you can first try to boot off the USB. Press and hold the Option (Alt) key immediately after turning on or restarting your Mac and select the USB drive.

Originally Posted by Puma Cat

3) Do I uninstall the Roon Core I already have installed on the Mac OS partition and and re-install it on a Euphony partition? A: I don't know.

Euphony is a complete OS made out of ArchLinux. You would install Euphony directly on a Boot device, like you would do with OSX.

Originally Posted by Puma Cat

4) How do I specifically use Euphony with Roon as a server and send the music to an endpoint renderer? A: I don't know.

In Euphony you can select which audio player you want. When you select Roon, you go into Roon's setting to configure your endpoint.

I hope that helps.

Originally Posted by Jack

Stephan

There are a couple of the guys on the AS forum that are heavy Euphony users and they can probably answer the questions you have. Other than that I would probably talk to Arthur at Power Holdings as he is the importer and seems to know a lot about it from what I was told by a user. From looking at the Euphony hardware they look like attractive alternatives to the Nucleus and the SGC units.

Euphony OS w/Stylus player setup and issues thread - Music Servers - Audiophile Style

Thank you, Jack!

Very helpful.

Originally Posted by Jack

Stephan

There are a couple of the guys on the AS forum that are heavy Euphony users and they can probably answer the questions you have. Other than that I would probably talk to Arthur at Power Holdings as he is the importer and seems to know a lot about it from what I was told by a user. From looking at the Euphony hardware they look like attractive alternatives to the Nucleus and the SGC units.

Euphony OS w/Stylus player setup and issues thread - Music Servers - Audiophile Style

Many thanks, Jack!

Originally Posted by Devg

Puma,
It's a high power server employing Xeon CPU. It runs Euphony OS and Roon core runs directly on it. In Euphony you can select which audio player you want and there are several to choose from - Roon server, Stylus, etc. I listen to Stylus most of the time for critical listening but with more and more tweaks I am finding Roon to be close match as well. The server is connected directly to the USB DAC.

Hi Dev,
Thanks so much for your reply. This is helpful background info.

Something I personally do not want to do is directly connect my Mac Mini to my DAC via USB. Moving it away from the audio rack as far as possible made for big improvement in sound quality.

Originally Posted by Devg

Yes and you can run Roon core.



For Mac, its better to install bootcamp and go from there. But you can first try to boot off the USB. Press and hold the Option (Alt) key immediately after turning on or restarting your Mac and select the USB drive.



Euphony is a complete OS made out of ArchLinux. You would install Euphony directly on a Boot device, like you would do with OSX.




In Euphony you can select which audio player you want. When you select Roon, you go into Roon's setting to configure your endpoint.

I hope that helps.

Very helpful, Dev, thank you. One question I have is that I would install another copy of Roon Core on the same boot volume that Euphony is on, is that correct? I could install the Euphony OS via Bootcamp as you have suggested.

Originally Posted by Puma Cat

Very helpful, Dev, thank you. One question I have is that I would install another copy of Roon Core on the same boot volume that Euphony is on, is that correct? I could install the Euphony OS via Bootcamp as you have suggested.

Roon comes prepackaged with Euphony. When you install Euphony, Roon will be available automatically but maybe an older version. You would follow the usual update procedure from Roon UI to get the latest and greatest

Originally Posted by Puma Cat

Hi Dev,
Thanks so much for your reply. This is helpful background info.

Something I personally do not want to do is directly connect my Mac Mini to my DAC via USB. Moving it away from the audio rack as far as possible made for big improvement in sound quality.

yeah, with Mac Mini, I would keep it away. In order to use Roon, you would need a Roon certified or Roon Bridge enabled streamer. In my experiments all these years, all possible upstream enhancements are easily heard downstream as well. So with a server/streamer solution I wouldn't neglect on network/connectivity part to get to the best sound quality.

Originally Posted by Devg

yeah, with Mac Mini, I would keep it away. In order to use Roon, you would need a Roon certified or Roon Bridge enabled streamer. In my experiments all these years, all possible upstream enhancements are easily heard downstream as well. So with a server/streamer solution I wouldn't neglect on network/connectivity part to get to the best sound quality.

Thanks, Dev.

I'm using a SOtM SMS-200 UltraNeo as my Roon endpoint. It shows up in Roon as the endpoint device and is labeled "Roon Ready" in the Audio settings panel in Roon.

And yes, I agree with your comment about upstream enhancements being heard downstream as well. This is why I am using a Sonore OpticalModule (OM) powered by an UpTone Audio LPS-1.0 to stream my data from the Mac Mini via Shunyata Sigma Ethernet cables to the OM downstream via OM-1 optical fiber to an Uptone Audio EtherREGEN Ethernet switch (also powered by an UpTone Audio LPS-1.2) and connecting to my SOtM with a Shunyata Omega Ethernet cable. Specifically, I'm not getting any low- or high-source impedance leakage current from components upstream to add noise to the ground plane and cause increased threshold jitter (and concomitant timing errors), and the Crystek CCHD-575 oscillator (clocks) in the OpticalModule and EtherREGEN are cleaning up any jitter and phase noise from the upstream components. So, about as clean a streaming connection as one can presently obtain for this configuration. Finally, my SOtM SMS-200 UltraNeo is powered by a Keces P3 linear power supply, and....the power supplies for the Uptone LPS-1.2 and Keces are powered by Shunyata Venom V14D Digital power cables plugged into a Shunyata Everest power distributor. So...pretty clean power all 'round.

Originally Posted by wklie

We got back our units previously sent to MQA Ltd. for certification.

They are scared of the Hong Kong Triads.....

Originally Posted by Projectman

I think I said it! I have had two devices that were advertised as Roon Ready. The two I have experience with were the NAD M10 and the Bricasti M3 DAC with Ethernet Streaming. Both were shown in Roon as Roon Ready - Uncertified. Both were advertised as being Roon Ready (since removed from the NAD and Bricasti's websites).

I have spoken by phone and email with NAD over a period of 12 months about problems with the N10 and Roon. NAD pointed the finger repeatedly at Roon and Roon did the same with NAD. Still not Roon Ready. I sold the M10. I now own and use in my main system the Bricasti M3 DAC/Streamer. I spoke by phone with the owner of Bricasti and he expressed his frustration with Roon. Still not Roon Ready.

My frustration is that Roon won't support the M3 going forward and the conditions of losing support were noted above.

What is he frustrated about, if I might ask? Is he not able to get his product certified due to a holdup caused by Roon? Did he agree to have it certified within a certain time period of advertising and selling it as Roon Ready? Not sure what to make of this without knowing the details of the agreement between Roon and the manufacturers.

1. Saw some comments on this thread about ROON being a very noisy user of computer resources. On my Windows 10 machine this sometimes is correct with regard to CPU/GPU. It happens when the ROON client screen is visible (or maximized) and needs to use the video driver. Sometimes automatic Windows OS updates resets the video driver to a Windows default instead of the specified third party (in my case). A bit of a PIA to reinstall the driver (5 minutes). Just an FYI for you Windows ROON users who see the CPU usage higher than expected.

More info here
GPU 100% on ROON Client Maximized - Support - Roon Labs Community

With my Sonore microRendu my computer noise stays mainly in the computer. Though I will soon upgrade to a opticalRendu and maybe even an EtherRegen.


2. One thing I heard about Briscati (I think in an interview) is that they outsource their software work. This could be one reason that their ROON-READY certification is pear shaped.

Originally Posted by Randy Myers

The absolute best way to run Roon, or honestly most any server side software, is to run Roon Core only off the server machine which does not run any GUI what so ever. The controller machine, tablet or whatever you use runs the GUI. In my case the controller is a Microsoft Surface but I have also used an Android. This way the Roon server runs no graphic front end at all and is extremely light weight on the server. I do not want my music server to be running a graphic interface even though the chances are it would not have much of a resource cost, it would still have some and the graphics would probably cost more in CPU cycles, memory usage, etc., then Roon Core itself.

Exactamundo. Good post, Randy.

Originally Posted by yyzSB

With my Sonore microRendu my computer noise stays mainly in the computer. Though I will soon upgrade to a opticalRendu and maybe even an EtherRegen.

If you're using a switch-mode power supply (SMPS) anywhere in your network chain from the router, music server/Roon Core, NAS, etc., down to the Sonore microRendu using unshielded (UTP) or shielded Ethernet cables, your system is quite likely passing low-source and high-source leakage impedance current down to the microRendu and through it to the clocks and flip-flops in your DAC chip. This results in increased noise on the ground plane for the flip-flops and PHY's and increased threshold jitter and concomitantly, timing errors, which are audible.

An easy fix for this is to use linear power supplies for those devices using SMPS; even the inexpensive Reliapro ones from Jameco Electronics which cost about 11 bucks will work to eliminate these leakage currents. A run of fiber in-between will do the same thing, though it will not eliminate clock phase noise from the el cheapo clocks in the upstream devices.

Originally Posted by Randy Myers

The absolute best way to run Roon, or honestly most any server side software, is to run Roon Core only off the server machine which does not run any GUI what so ever. The controller machine, tablet or whatever you use runs the GUI. In my case the controller is a Microsoft Surface but I have also used an Android. This way the Roon server runs no graphic front end at all and is extremely light weight on the server. I do not want my music server to be running a graphic interface even though the chances are it would not have much of a resource cost, it would still have some and the graphics would probably cost more in CPU cycles, memory usage, etc., then Roon Core itself.

I have to agree with your sentiments on running ROON on a server without a GUI. I have a few servers in my garage for my home office. They are connected by house copper via a Powerline. I was reluctant to use one of those servers due to the inconvenience of waking up the server, the heat of the garage, and the Powerline connectivity. I should test it out though when the weather gets cooler.

The servers I have cost about $1000 and have 12 cores with 96GB of RAM. Insane power for the price.

I am using a tablet to control Roon Core. However, I know that Roon does not tax my PC much at all. Let’s say that using Roon’s GUI does increase CPU needs, still we are not talking gaming software here. Quite frankly, I think that this GUI noise concern is overblown.