Am I Being Censored on Another Audio Forum Site?

[nicoff]

Am I Being Censored on Another Audio Forum Site?


I recently replied to a thread on another audio forum site. The original poster (OP) was asking for advise on long (35') HDMI cables for use with a TV.


I was the first person to reply to the OP. I suggested HDMI cables from Ruipro. I subsequently edited my post to suggest that he also look at Monoprice HDMI cables. Both my original reply and my edit showed up.


Sometime after I posted my reply, the owner of that forum replied recommending HDMI cables from a certain brand (I had never heard of that brand) and said (obviously referring to my comment) that Monoprice cables for the OP’s “$6k Sony Display”, “would be a joke”.


After reading the reply from the forum’s owner, I quoted his entire post and answered something along these lines (below in italics):


No joke actually. I own a projector with a MSRP price higher than that Sony display. I have been using a Monoprice 33ft HDMI cable for quite some time now. I can play 4k SDR with this set up with no problem.

However, I am in the process of upgrading my current projector to a newer native 4k with the newest technology. So I have been researching about the current-best long HDMI cables. I came across a paper/article that had a shootout of HDMI cables of different brands. You can find the result by googling this:

HDMI CABLES PERFORMANCE EVALUATION & TESTING REPORT #1 | 50FT/15M+ LENGTH CABLES

In that shootout both Ruipro and Monoprice came out tied on top. The folks who did that shootout claim to have no financial interest in any of the cable companies.

Then I visited a video forum that I have been a member of for nearly 20 years. The forum has a section for high-end displays. I came to the conclusion that many of the users of very high-end displays are using HDMI cables from those two manufacturers so my conclusion is that there is nothing wrong with considering them for long HDMI cables.


After a few minutes, I went back to the site and noticed that my post was nowhere to be found. I thought that I probably pressed the wrong button or that it may take a while for a response to a post to actually show. So I left it at that.

Sometime later, I re-visited the site and noticed that my reply was still not showing. Thinking, again, that I must have pressed the wrong button, I decided to repost.

Rather than quoting the forum’s owner, I decided to use the Quick Reply option instead. I posted my reply and added this preamble:
[I thought that I had posted this note before but maybe some computer gremlin ate it.]

After posting, I checked the web site and my post showed up! Great!!

So here is the thing, sometime later I went back to that site and my reply that was previously visible is now gone. It disappeared.

So… What is going on? Am I being censored for suggesting something that is different to what the owner of the forum was suggesting? Or is this just a computer gremlin?

[RDSChicago]

Hmmm, I wonder!

[Phil A]

Who knows (might be) - could even be a site upgrade that messed up things. Wouldn't lose any sleep over it. I don't find anything wrong with Monoprice's cables. I actually just bought a couple for my 4k system with the intent to upgrade when the pandemic gets more under control and I could have a B&M store deliver and set-up a TV (have my eyes on a Samsung 65 inch Q800T - currently have a 55 inch Sony UHD set - just sit 7 feet away and furniture constraints dictate size, weight and stand configuration) along with a player (probably a Panasonic UB-9000). They are not long cables. I have an old bonded Blue Jeans 50 footer going to my main system projector I brought from my old house. In my bedroom system, I needed a 35 foot cable (I had one almost that long but not quite in the basement of my old house but I left it). I did buy a Monoprice many months before the move and it was defective (way too late to return but wasn't all that costly). Discovered that while the projector was being installed and I wanted it finished so I just ran out to Best Buy while the installer was there and picked up an Monster cable (overpriced but it worked). I'd like to move the main system projector into the bedroom and get an ultra short throw (vs. running the 50 footer thru the attic above the living room). That's probably a bit off (maybe a year).

I have played with various HDMI cables in the old house (two projectors, one in the great room and one in the basement). For something well constructed with proper specs, I never noticed much in the way of difference for video. I did, however, before going to audio file playback (probably around years back), use an HDMI audio de-embedder (for a bit) going from a modded Oppo BDP-83 into my DAC to play the hi-rez audio (SACDs at 24/88.2 and DVD-As up to 192kHz, which the Oppo would pass anyway from its coax digital out but I wanted to pass the video on to the projector) and found using different ones for (2-channel) audio did make a difference (I even put a good power supply on the HDMI audio de-embedder - using one of the power supplies I had for that right now on a network switch in one room and used it for a bit when I had a Squeezebox Touch).

Cable discussions also on most sites have a way of going south in an extremely short period of time (it's just the way it is - I stay out of them) and they could have been edited. It doesn't really bother me on what people think one way or the other. Many moons ago (maybe around 20 years back), I had Proceed electronics (AVP pre/pro). The pre/pro would easily allow one to compare digital cables. So I decided to do an experiment. Over a period of time, I probably had a total of a couple of dozen people (no more than a handful at any time). I concentrated on people who claimed there were 1s and 0s floating down the cable and therefore it would make no difference. I had every type from people who though wire was wire to those engineering types who would talk you to death explaining why there couldn't be a difference (which I could here). I had someone else go behind the component and switch the various cables (which were labeled so we could go back and determine which ones were switched in) so I didn't even know which one was playing (but could hear the difference). I got one fellow who told me he heard a difference and wanted to take apart the component since there had to be something in the signal path causing that problem. Anyway the results showed that with what was used that couldn't be the case. After that I gave up on cable discussions.

[joeinid]

Based on your information, I’d say yes you are being censored.

[Mike]

What site?

[mep]

Am I Being Censored on Another Audio Forum Site?


I recently replied to a thread on another audio forum site. The original poster (OP) was asking for advise on long (35') HDMI cables for use with a TV.


I was the first person to reply to the OP. I suggested HDMI cables from Ruipro. I subsequently edited my post to suggest that he also look at Monoprice HDMI cables. Both my original reply and my edit showed up.


Sometime after I posted my reply, the owner of that forum replied recommending HDMI cables from a certain brand (I had never heard of that brand) and said (obviously referring to my comment) that Monoprice cables for the OP’s “$6k Sony Display”, “would be a joke”.


After reading the reply from the forum’s owner, I quoted his entire post and answered something along these lines (below in italics):


No joke actually. I own a projector with a MSRP price higher than that Sony display. I have been using a Monoprice 33ft HDMI cable for quite some time now. I can play 4k SDR with this set up with no problem.

However, I am in the process of upgrading my current projector to a newer native 4k with the newest technology. So I have been researching about the current-best long HDMI cables. I came across a paper/article that had a shootout of HDMI cables of different brands. You can find the result by googling this:

HDMI CABLES PERFORMANCE EVALUATION & TESTING REPORT #1 | 50FT/15M+ LENGTH CABLES

In that shootout both Ruipro and Monoprice came out tied on top. The folks who did that shootout claim to have no financial interest in any of the cable companies.

Then I visited a video forum that I have been a member of for nearly 20 years. The forum has a section for high-end displays. I came to the conclusion that many of the users of very high-end displays are using HDMI cables from those two manufacturers so my conclusion is that there is nothing wrong with considering them for long HDMI cables.


After a few minutes, I went back to the site and noticed that my post was nowhere to be found. I thought that I probably pressed the wrong button or that it may take a while for a response to a post to actually show. So I left it at that.

Sometime later, I re-visited the site and noticed that my reply was still not showing. Thinking, again, that I must have pressed the wrong button, I decided to repost.

Rather than quoting the forum’s owner, I decided to use the Quick Reply option instead. I posted my reply and added this preamble:
[I thought that I had posted this note before but maybe some computer gremlin ate it.]

After posting, I checked the web site and my post showed up! Great!!

So here is the thing, sometime later I went back to that site and my reply that was previously visible is now gone. It disappeared.

So… What is going on? Am I being censored for suggesting something that is different to what the owner of the forum was suggesting? Or is this just a computer gremlin?

The site is obviously deleting your comments. You have already hinted at why.

[Shadowfax]

Aficionado? If so, not out of the norm.

[Mike]

Since I’m in the midst of completely redoing my home theater - all new cables, new surrounds, adding Atmos, adding center, adding subs, new projector, new multichannel amps and new SSP, new screen, I went with AudioQuest Cherry Cola HDMI for the long run and Diamond HDMI for the short runs.

Most of my HT stuff was brought from Canada in the 90’s. LOL. It was so desperately in need of a refresh.

[Mr Peabody]

Sparing the long story I too found a difference in sound of HDMI cables. So I assume picture quality would benefit from a better HDMI. Although I guess if you can't see the difference, what does it matter.

Where I had cheap HDMI, that's the first thing I check if there's an issue. Higher failure rate than better/more expensive.

If I was doing a long run, even 35 feet, and it was in-wall, I'd spend the money for the more advanced, I think they are fiber optic, it's been a while since I've had to look at HDMI.

I bought a cheap XLR for a quick hook up, this was for HT, I procrastinated upgrading it. I eventually had too due to a short developing in one cable.

If someone has had good luck with cheap cables you have been fortunate. My experience has not been that good and I don't even mess with them any more.

With all that being said, it's not right to delete another person's opinion as long as they were respectful.

As far as I can remember the only thing I have bought with Monoprice on the label was a HDMI manual switcher for the bedroom. The page on Amazon said it would pass 1080p, when I got the unit the box clearly said it was up to 1080i. I just didn't bother with them any more after that.

[nicoff]

Sparing the long story I too found a difference in sound of HDMI cables. So I assume picture quality would benefit from a better HDMI. Although I guess if you can't see the difference, what does it matter.

Where I had cheap HDMI, that's the first thing I check if there's an issue. Higher failure rate than better/more expensive.

If I was doing a long run, even 35 feet, and it was in-wall, I'd spend the money for the more advanced, I think they are fiber optic, it's been a while since I've had to look at HDMI.

I bought a cheap XLR for a quick hook up, this was for HT, I procrastinated upgrading it. I eventually had too due to a short developing in one cable.

If someone has had good luck with cheap cables you have been fortunate. My experience has not been that good and I don't even mess with them any more.

With all that being said, it's not right to delete another person's opinion as long as they were respectful.

As far as I can remember the only thing I have bought with Monoprice on the label was a HDMI manual switcher for the bedroom. The page on Amazon said it would pass 1080p, when I got the unit the box clearly said it was up to 1080i. I just didn't bother with them any more after that.

Thanks for the reply!

HDMI cables are always changing as a result of updated/new standards. So even the most expensive cable available today is not guaranteed to work when new standards are adopted.

When I built the room, I had composite cables and VGA cables installed (I am talking long ago! ) Back then, that was state of the art. Eventually, HDMI came along and I moved to HDMI cables.

But the HDMI technology continues to evolve (HDMI 1.0, 1.2, 1.4, now 2.0, 2.1). To do 4K video, all of the cables in the chain must must premium HDMI cables. Easy to do between components except when one has an ‘old’ HDMI cable in a wall.

Today there several HDMI cable options: passive, active, fiber, hybrid, etc. For long cables say over 30 feet, passive cables can’t do 4K HDR. So I am looking at the three other options. But even if I go with the most expensive active/fiber/hybrid cable I can buy today, I am certain that I will have to replace in the future to meet whatever new standards they come with. Lesson learned: I should have put a conduit in the wall so I could switch the cables at will!

One thing about projectors that is different from audio is that the there numerous parameters that require to be calibrated for the projector/screen to show their best. IME, the key thing is to make sure that one starts with a well built cable with zero drop outs for the incoming digital signal. Then in the projector one can make all kind of adjustments (gamma, tone mapping, etc, etc.) to get the best image from the specific projector/screen/room. Unfortunately no single cable regardless of price can do all that.

And btw, I have decided not to bother about that other forum. Life’s short! Thanks again!!

[bart]

Nicoff, I just checked the thread on AA.
Your post is there!
Here it is:

Check out cables made by Ruipro. They are fiber cables. A 12 meters cable is selling for about $135 on Amazon.

PS. That cable can do 4K HDR. If you do not need that, then you can get much cheaper cables. Monoprice is a good source.


I think you don't need to worry.

[Mikado463]

Nicoff, I just checked the thread on AA.
Your post is there!
Here it is:

Check out cables made by Ruipro. They are fiber cables. A 12 meters cable is selling for about $135 on Amazon.

PS. That cable can do 4K HDR. If you do not need that, then you can get much cheaper cables. Monoprice is a good source.


I think you don't need to worry.

perhaps 'Lu' had a change of heart .........

[nicoff]

perhaps 'Lu' had a change of hart .........

perhaps 'Lu' had a change of hart .........

Thank you Bart & Mikado!

Actually, what you still see is my original reply to the OP.

After my first post, the owner of the group replied to the thread. And it is my reply to the owner’s post that was censored.

Just this morning, I read a message that the owner of the forum sent to me last night. The message confirms that my post was deleted because he does not want to see any reference to Monoprice or cheap cables.

Every forum has rules. Like no politics, no bad words, respect for others, etc. And users are made aware of those rules before they sign up. I am fine with all that. I know that I did not violate any of those rules (I am sure that my account would have been terminated had that been the case).

That said, to me is all water under the bridge. I prefer to hang around forums where users posts that follow the forum written rules are not being censored.

Thank you Bart & Mikado for your message!

[nicoff]

Deleted/duplicate post

[JWhip]

Hi Nicoff, I would never visit such a site ever again.

[W9TR]

I don’t envy any site owner that has a complementary business they are running on the site. It makes administration devilishly difficult. The site owner will be accused of being too strict or too lenient. There’s little middle ground.

Now as far as HDMI cables go, my next one will be 2 1/2” PVC conduit form PJ to rack. I’m tired of ripping out cables so I need to make it easier.

[Mike]

I don’t envy any site owner that has a complementary business they are running on the site. It makes administration devilishly difficult. The site owner will be accused of being too strict or too lenient. There’s little middle ground.

Now as far as HDMI cables go, my next one will be 2 1/2” PVC conduit form PJ to rack. I’m tired of ripping out cables so I need to make it easier.

It’s definitely a balancing act. . But Audioshark was created because of a lack of tolerance. I think we have a great group of experienced guys (with actual systems) and we aren’t afraid to talk about Monoprice cheap cables either. Hey, I’ve bought some myself for my computer!


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[dznutz]

As mentioned previously in another thread, I have over 15 years in this hobby and have spent well over a million on Audio gear... as soon as I raised concern with how Axiss Audio ships very expensive Accuphase products I was immediately banned. I just hope that the people posting on Aficionado are aware of whats going on there.

[Mike]

As mentioned previously in another thread, I have over 15 years in this hobby and have spent well over a million on Audio gear... as soon as I raised concern with how Axiss Audio ships very expensive Accuphase products I was immediately banned. I just hope that the people posting on Aficionado are aware of whats going on there.

Joe and I are.


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[Mechnutt]

Speaking of cheap cables. Blue Jean Cables BJC Series 1 is rated up to 45 feet and 4Kx2. They are made in the good ole USA. I have used their HDMI cables and have had no issues.

[Mr Peabody]

Good point Nicoff on the ever changing technology. I've got fairly expensive Transparent component cables in a closet, pretty much obsolete. I use Tributaries for video now, not the most expensive but have shown to do a good job. At least I didn't have to rip the component cables out of the wall.

I personally don't consider Bluejeans "cheap". They perform beyond their price. Depending on length a set of RCA's may cost $40.00, a cheap set is below $10.00.

[Mr Peabody]

Good point Nicoff on the ever changing technology. I've got fairly expensive Transparent component cables in a closet, pretty much obsolete. I use Tributaries for video now, not the most expensive but have shown to do a good job. At least I didn't have to rip the component cables out of the wall.

I personally don't consider Bluejeans "cheap". They perform beyond their price. Depending on length a set of RCA's may cost $40.00, a cheap set is below $10.00.

[BlueFox]

I personally don't consider Bluejeans "cheap". They perform beyond their price. Depending on length a set of RCA's may cost $40.00, a cheap set is below $10.00.

Actually, a cheap cable is less than $1000.

[joeinid]

Joe and I are.


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Stockholm syndrome ?

[XV-1]

As mentioned previously in another thread, I have over 15 years in this hobby and have spent well over a million on Audio gear... as soon as I raised concern with how Axiss Audio ships very expensive Accuphase products I was immediately banned. I just hope that the people posting on Aficionado are aware of whats going on there.

Masterlu sells Accuphase along with the nice juicy margins.

[Ritmo]

It’s not uncommon to be banned by audio sites for even honest and reasonable comments. I was recently banned by What’s Best Audio.

Why? Because I commented on the demo of the VAC - Von Scheweikert at Florida Expo that the equipment was impressive but the sound was inconsistent. A couple of posters, including a TAS reviewer, strongly disagreed with me. And within a day or two, I was banned.

Interesting that such a transparent but respectful comment would end up with a ban; specially in a site that is known for disrespectful and insulting arguments. I’m not sure if my comments are still there but I used to go by MJB.

[u-sound]

different in germany, i used to post on "hifi-forum.de".
there you get shot if you post something sounds very good. a crowd of unexperienced frustrated members and also officials will tell you it is not possible. any kind of insult is allowed.

[Mr Peabody]

Maybe for you high rollers but you don't have to spend $1k to show an improvement over the cheap cables typically provided in the box. Some may only have $1k in their system. Many name brand cables have entry points at $100.00 give or take. I would hope for that $100.00 they would show an improvement over something like Monoprice.

Actually, a cheap cable is less than $1000.

[Mr Peabody]

Maybe for you high rollers but you don't have to spend $1k to show an improvement over the cheap cables typically provided in the box. Some may only have $1k in their system. Many name brand cables have entry points at $100.00 give or take. I would hope for that $100.00 they would show an improvement over something like Monoprice.

Actually, a cheap cable is less than $1000.

[Mikado463]

It’s definitely a balancing act. . But Audioshark was created because of a lack of tolerance. I think we have a great group of experienced guys (with actual systems) and we aren’t afraid to talk about Monoprice cheap cables either. Hey, I’ve bought some myself for my computer!


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Mike I think it's quite apparent of the amount of openness and freedom here on your site vs. 'the other'. I thank you for that !
I've had posts 'dissapear' as well over there.

IMO, 'Jdandy' was the Class act of that site !

[Mike]

Mike I think it's quite apparent of the amount of openness and freedom here on your site vs. 'the other'. I thank you for that !
I've had posts 'dissapear' as well over there.

IMO, 'Jdandy' was the Class act of that site !

You’re welcome. I agree on Dan. We talked regularly on the phone. He was always supportive. He was a great customer too!

[Mike]

Mike I think it's quite apparent of the amount of openness and freedom here on your site vs. 'the other'. I thank you for that !
I've had posts 'dissapear' as well over there.

IMO, 'Jdandy' was the Class act of that site !

You’re welcome. I agree on Dan. We talked regularly on the phone. He was always supportive. He was a great customer too!

[Kingrex]

I always run a 1.5" pvc pipe from the rack to the projector. That way I can pull any cable at any time. I dead end it in a ceiling joist bay and put a double cut in data ring in the ceiling. Try for only 1 x 90* turn. Also try to find, or make sweep 90*. The larger the arch the better.

[mep]

It’s not uncommon to be banned by audio sites for even honest and reasonable comments. I was recently banned by What’s Best Audio.

Why? Because I commented on the demo of the VAC - Von Scheweikert at Florida Expo that the equipment was impressive but the sound was inconsistent. A couple of posters, including a TAS reviewer, strongly disagreed with me. And within a day or two, I was banned.

Interesting that such a transparent but respectful comment would end up with a ban; specially in a site that is known for disrespectful and insulting arguments. I’m not sure if my comments are still there but I used to go by MJB.

Mike-I'm blown away that you were banned by the World Boxing Federation. You are the mild-mannered reporter from the Daily Planet. There are people on that forum that deserved to be banned, but you certainly weren't among them. You just dared to speak the truth as you heard it.

[asindc]

Count me among the satisfied Monoprice HDMI users. I run 25’ from my pre/pro to my ceiling-mounted front projector. By the way, I use Wireworld for the shorter runs to components and I have found that as you move up the WW HDMI latter, there is very little picture quality improvement. I hear more improvement on the audio side. This tells me that for long runs to video displays that will not be outputting audio, going with lesser expensive quality is the way to go.

[asindc]

Count me among the satisfied Monoprice HDMI users. I run 25’ from my pre/pro to my ceiling-mounted front projector. By the way, I use Wireworld for the shorter runs to components and I have found that as you move up the WW HDMI ladder, there is very little picture quality improvement. I hear more improvement on the audio side. This tells me that for long runs to video displays that will not be outputting audio, going with lesser expensive quality is the way to go.

[Mahalo]

[QUOTE=nicoff;300702]Thank you Bart & Mikado!

...

Just this morning, I read a message that the owner of the forum sent to me last night. The message confirms that my post was deleted because he does not want to see any reference to Monoprice or cheap cables...
QUOTE]

My hat's off to the owner for being straightforward and giving you the heads up. Others have commented on this thread about outright bans for similar comments on other forums. Made me wonder, could the owner on that site have such a positive opinion of you based upon other posts that he gave you the heads up rather than a ban?

[nicoff]

My hat's off to the owner for being straightforward and giving you the heads up. Others have commented on this thread about outright bans for similar comments on other forums. Made me wonder, could the owner on that site have such a positive opinion of you based upon other posts that he gave you the heads up rather than a ban?

You might be probably correct. Let me say it one more time, I totally respect that it is somebody else's site; no hard feelings from me.

[Kingrex]

I wonder what the relationship of site usage to deleted post and banning of members is. Does it increase, decrease or have no impact on traffic.

When I first started posting, sites were full of Trolls. I don't see that so much anymore. Maybe that is good work by moderating. Maybe the Trolls just moved on.

Something I feel I notice is that no matter the site. Even boating forum I go too, there appears to be maybe 15 to 20 people who account for 70% of the post. Each site is kind of a good oll boys club. Audioshark seems to be one that is more broad in user posts.

[Phil A]

It’s not uncommon to be banned by audio sites for even honest and reasonable comments. I was recently banned by What’s Best Audio.

Why? Because I commented on the demo of the VAC - Von Scheweikert at Florida Expo that the equipment was impressive but the sound was inconsistent. A couple of posters, including a TAS reviewer, strongly disagreed with me. And within a day or two, I was banned.

Interesting that such a transparent but respectful comment would end up with a ban; specially in a site that is known for disrespectful and insulting arguments. I’m not sure if my comments are still there but I used to go by MJB.

Doesn't surprise me at all. In some instances, it can be hard for a forum owner to ascertain certain intent from a written post and they take the extreme position without really trying to see or clarify (e.g. via a PM) what was actually said. More often than that, sites are run by people many of whom are a bit drunk with their power. I've seen people banned for things that I have no idea what the owner or adminstrator was even reading and posted a personal public attack on the member. The funny thing is that in many of these instances if the member posted such an attack (and I should add that it would likely be in violation of the rules on many of these forums) on the owner for the same thing, the owner would deem such a person an A-Hole and would probably ban them. So I guess the moral is that if someone has power and is going to abuse it, I'd be happy to let them and move on where your opinions are more valued.

[Watchdog507]

I participate on a few audio forums and I have never seen that level of micromanaging moderation. The W B F site seemed to be outwardly accommodating but this kind of puts a new perspective on it. The trolls have moved to Twitter where gratification is quicker and not moderated IMHO.

[XV-1]

It’s not uncommon to be banned by audio sites for even honest and reasonable comments. I was recently banned by What’s Best Audio.

Why? Because I commented on the demo of the VAC - Von Scheweikert at Florida Expo that the equipment was impressive but the sound was inconsistent. A couple of posters, including a TAS reviewer, strongly disagreed with me. And within a day or two, I was banned.

Interesting that such a transparent but respectful comment would end up with a ban; specially in a site that is known for disrespectful and insulting arguments. I’m not sure if my comments are still there but I used to go by MJB.

VAC & Von Scheweikert are both big advertisers on WBF, so you must not have any negative views.
any product that is not advertised is up for open slander if needed.

sad but true.

[Mike]

VAC & Von Scheweikert are both big advertisers on WBF, so you must not have any negative views.
any product that is not advertised is up for open slander if needed.

sad but true.

We once ran industry related ads. It lasted about two weeks. Someone would say “I heard X amp and it sucked.” 15 minutes later my phone rings from Company X with a demand to “delete that comment and ban that guy!!!”

Ritmo’s example is a perfect one. His comment was basically a particular sponsors room sounded inconsistent. That’s pretty PC.

Hence, the reason we don’t have ads today except those that are handled by Google Adsense.

I know I could make way more money on ads from industry related folks, but the headaches aren’t worth it. We make less than $30 a month from the Google ads. We could be making thousands. But, been there, done that. Just not worth it.


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[bzr]

Ahh the good old "speaka zee ivandays" while he casually buys his wife/son/gardener a new Porsche.... All good Mike. I wont say anymore.

[XV-1]

Ahh the good old "speaka zee ivandays" while he casually buys his wife/son/gardener a new Porsche.... All good Mike. I wont say anymore.

Kev, how much money is enough?
I would luv to know

[sharkmouth]

Shane, I'm guessing he hasn't got as much as he used to....

[XV-1]

Kev, why you have two login's ?

[bzr]

Kev, why you have two login's ?

You know why Bhodi...

[XV-1]

You know why Bhodi...

ROFL - where is Bhodi? rubber room? with his Magico's of course or whatever else Boris tells him is good.

[sharkmouth]

now now