Thread: $700 Amplifier that sounds identical to SOTA amplifierIf

We love to argue about the superiority of tube versus solid state, class A versus A/B or class D, brand X versus brand Y. We are all so certain of our opinions.

What if there existed a sub $1000 amplifier that was the equal of ANY SOTA amplifier regardless of its brand, design or cost? What if we subjected this miracle amplifier to subjective tests by the finest golden eared experts in all of audiophilia? Surely, THEY could identify the imposter.

If such a feat were truly possible, wouldn't the creator of the modest amplifier be one of audio's greatest geniuses? And what would the implications be regarding our firmly held beliefs?

And what if this actually happened more than 30 years ago? I remember it. Do you?

http://www.stereophile.com/content/c...TXRtyvXQYxF.97

In the 80's, I had Carver amps with B&W 801F's. I'm not surprised by this.

Since Bob 'retired,' he decided to build and sell tube amps. I still have a pair of Phase Linear 400 Series Two amps sitting on a shelf. I believe the Series Two came out after Bob sold Phase Linear and the Series Two addressed the instability issues that plagued the original design. People used to refer to Phase Linear as Flame Linear. When Bob first started Carver, his first products looked exactly like Phase Linear amps and preamps.

Over the years I had several different Carver or Sunfire amps. My favorite one was the Sunfire Signature II 625x2. It was head and shoulders above the rest of the Carver or Sunfire lines in sound quality. It was in my system for quite some time. I put many amps against it and the Sig II either held its own or came out on top. It was not the same sounding as the other Sunfire like the 300x2. The only reason I sold it was to get the McIntosh mc402 otherwise it would have still been in my system.

Only one one small thing on some of the Carver or Sunfire amps, need to watch the caps or have them recap especially the Sunfire power supply.

For the Carver line, my fave was the 500T. I thought the 500T at the time was very musical and I am a sucker for a VU. He has a 500 also but the T was more to my liking.

Not only do I remember the Carver 1.5t I owned it. It was my 1st entry into Hi-Fi from Mid-Fi. Thanks for sharing. It brings back some good memories.

I've always had a thing for Carver gear and have sworn to myself years ago to eventually recreate my oldest brother's Carver system TX-11, C-1, DTL-100, M-400t) one day including the JBL L112's he had. That system had the biggest impact on me and my love for not only music, but stereo equipment as well.

Now that I have the TX-11a and enjoy its sound very much, I've been wondering about something else... I've always fancied the M-500t and have been wondering if the sound quality of that amp would surpass the sound quality of my Wyred 4 Sound ST-250. Obviously, the 500t has more power, but I'm not worried about that at all. It's the overall sound quality that I'm interested in. That and the great looks of that particular amp with those meters.

Without the blue LED's though...

There was quite a bit more that went on inside those "t" amps than just a resistor at the outputs.

And Bob Carver always had a love and fascination with tube amps. It's just that when he was starting out, solid state was also just coming out and everyone was going that way, hence the introduction of the Phase Linear 700 amp. So in a sense, he was forced into SS amp design because that's where technology was going. Now that he's made his fame and fortune, he can go back to his love of designing and building tube amps, or in his own words, he has come "full circle".

Originally Posted by audio.bill

I find it interesting that Bob Carver claimed he could make a solid state amp with sound that could not be differentiated from the best tube amps, but now has chosen to manufacture and sell tube amps exclusively. All he basically did with his infamous 't' mod which emulated tube amps was to insert a resistor of about one ohm in series with the amplifier's output just before the binding post. That was his method for increasing the output impedance of his 't' amps to be more similar to a typical tube amp which uses output transformers.

Back in the day I sold Carver. We sold quite a few amps etc., however I was never really a fan. I never liked the sound of Carver amps back then. Tons of power but if I recall correctly I always felt they were very bright and thin sounding. And I do not remember an amp that we had more problems with than his cube.

My brother bought his M-400t (cube) brand new in 1983, and sold it in 2003. That was 20 straight years of constant blasting, in stereo mode for about 15 of those years, and bridged mono for the last 5 years. Not once did he ever have a problem with that amp.

In fact, other than the DTL-100 dying on him after about 12 years (maybe longer), he never had an issue with any of his Carver gear.

Which is very cool. When you sell them you see the ones that people bring back in. With any decent equipment the failure rate is fairly low. Just in my experience it was higher on the cube (not Carver in general) than other products we carried.

I liked the Carver line in general, especially the tuners, but personally I was not a fan of the sound of their amplifiers, back then. I never had one in my personal system. A couple friends did. I did have many different amplifiers. I built many Hafler's and had them in my system quite often, some McIntosh's, Audionics, Nakamichi (Stasis), Yamaha, etc. It very well could have been that they just did not match well with KEF speakers....

Again, I'm old so my memory could be completely faded

Not a fan of his transistor amps, just thin sounding to me. Haven't spent enough time with his tube gear to make a judgement.

I guess I'll find out soon enough about how these old Carver amps sound compared to newer designs such as my digital W4S ST-250. Though this in itself is an old amp, it's a totally different technology, and I'm quite happy with the sound I get from this little W4S amp.

What I have coming in the mail (FedEx), is a totally refurbished Carver M-500t signed by the ol'e boy himself, Bob Carver. On top of that, it has what the Carver community calls the "MkII" modification.

Now the M-500t was supposed to be the most musical amp in the M-series lineup. The MkII mods tighten up and extend the bass, provide a fuller mid-bass and midrange, smooth out the highs, better transients, a lot less distortion, a lot less crosstalk, a little more forward sound stage, and a LOT more power output. Stock power is 251w @ 8 ohms, 330w @ 4 ohms. With the MkII mods, it's now rated 395w @ 8 ohms and 420w @ 4 ohms.

The extra power doesn't really concern me too much since I live on the 3rd floor of an apartment complex. What I care about is the overall sound, and to be honest, the looks of the amp in general.

Nice looking amp Charles. I hope it thrills you!!!

Thanks for posting this. As a young-ish guy (I was but a teen when the above article was published), it's enlightening as to a more complete understanding of Mr. Carver (and all that is ballyhooed about him both in his favor and otherwise), and an approach to "measuring" an amplifier to gauge its sonic signature that I had never heard of. I actually found that fascinating and am keen to do some more reading...

Great post!

GL with the 500T.I am a sucker for a VU. I believe Rich is still doing mods on Carver equipment.

Thanks guys, and you're welcome, Don. And yes Ernie, Rich still does mods. Mark (DaddyJT) is who performed the mods on the amp I'm getting. It along with the C-9 will be here tomorrow. That means I'll have all weekend to play around with them.

I used to have a C-19 pre. I sold it to go with a Audio Research SP16. To be honest, I cant say the AR was that much of an upgrade if at all outside of having a different signature sound. The c-19 was cleaned up / recapped by Rolland and it sounded darn good!

Well, it's here, the Carver M-500t MkII along with the little Carver C-9 Sonic Hologram Generator. The amp looks near new, the C-9 literally looks brand new!

Wow! Looks great. Let them warm up and tells us how they sound.

Moved some things around and installed the C-9.

Nice... how does it sound?

Originally Posted by chops

Moved some things around and installed the C-9.

In a word, BALLS! And I don't mean that in the way that it has more than twice the power of the W4S. Just at normal listening levels (meters showing a max of around 1 watt), it has some strong, tight bass. The midrange is smooth and full yet a little more forward than the W4S. Treble is just about the same as the W4S, if just a touch more refined. But the more important thing, it has a wider and deeper sound stage.

And even more important than all of that... BIG METERS!

Originally Posted by joeinid

Wow! Looks great. Let them warm up and tells us how they sound.

Originally Posted by Randy Myers

Nice... how does it sound?

Looks good! Again I am a sucker for a vu.

Dammit... my new little classic play toy doesn't have any meters at all... now I am depressed ... glad you are liking it Charles!

And that proves the work to make them an mkII is worth it!

Well Randy, get yourself a classic Carver amp! There's several different types of meters to choose from.

Originally Posted by Randy Myers

Dammit... my new little classic play toy doesn't have any meters at all... now I am depressed ... glad you are liking it Charles!

Hehe... nah... waiting for my STP-SE and I will be good for now... really enjoying this little 45 watt dual mono Audio Research.... so clean...

You could always get one of these and use it with your amp!

Originally Posted by Randy Myers

Hehe... nah... waiting for my STP-SE and I will be good for now... really enjoying this little 45 watt dual mono Audio Research.... so clean...

Lol... yea, I don't think so ...

Listening to this modified Carver M-500t MkII some more, I have a few more things to say about it...

It has a way of pulling out delicate details in the music, very light on its toes so to speak. Everything is super clean and clear. The words playful and lively comes to mind. I guess you could say it has the same performance traits of a good ESL speaker. Instant transients, uncolored sound with loads of detail and still remaining refined and non-fatiguing.

I'm listening to albums that I know like the back of my hand, and I'm hearing new details within that I never knew was there before. There's more acoustic space that can be heard, more decay in notes, shear black silence, extra textures in the instruments, and a warmish cozy feeling.

Does it sound like tubes at all? No, not really. Unless you consider the non-fatiguing sound and acoustic air along with the delicacy within the details as tube sounding. Then in that case, yes, it sounds like tubes.

And something I learned this evening about the MkII mod on these amps... Not only do they replace and upgrade every thing electrolytic capacitor in it, they also upgrade all of the diodes in the power supply as well as some kind of up-sized/upgraded transistors. And speaking of transistors, they replace the OEM Toshiba output devices with new and much larger Sanken output devices. These are the same used in a LOT of high-end audiophile amplifiers. These alone probably attribute to most of the sonic improvements in this amp.

I have to say, I'm really impressed with this amp. It has well exceeded my expectations by a long shot!

Excellent! Glad you are happy with it!