Thread: So happy with my digital...finally

Getting my digital back to close to where I was when I had the Select II at home with the Avantgarde’s has been a daunting task with my MBL 101e mk2’s.

With top cabling, Everest 8000/Omega XC, the 9008 monos/6010d pre, an Aurender W20SE/ACS10, I was well on my way to getting my MBL system to perform to its ultimate level. But finding the right sources has remained my biggest challenge.

I brought home a number of different DAC’s, some that were the absolute best with every speaker in the store, were not quite the right fit for the MBL’s. The MBL’s are different birds. They need sources which are super dynamic and detailed, but retain a smooth naturalness to the midrange with tight bass. The one thing MBL’s do is reveal any flaws or weaknesses upstream.

The MBL Reference DAC and N31 were excellent. I could have lived happily with either of those, but I kept looking. I brought home a variety of different DAC’s and CD/DAC combo’s, including the MSB, EMM, Luxman, Chord, etc. And like Goldilocks and the three bears, some where a little too smooth, others a little too bright, others a little too flat, but when I stumbled upon the K-03XD in my system, it was “just right”. I knew right there and then that the new XD sound was perfect for my MBL system.

When I jumped to the Grandioso K1X, I was a little apprehensive. I was concerned that the excellent combo I had with the K-03XD was going to somehow disappear if I moved up the chain and lead me back to going in circles. That concern was quickly dissipated from the first note from the K1X. From this point, I waited patiently for the K1X to break in before making my next move: the Cybershaft Clock and external PSU. When the clock arrived and was connected with a Shunyata Sigma 75ohm clock cable, this is when things got really interesting. I heard an even greater smoothness, but with no loss of detail. Digital immediately became a lot less digital sounding. There was no downside to this addition, only more positive attributes.

Next up, I added the Esoteric PS1. The addition of the power supply helped tighten up the bass region and provide more dynamic punch, but it’s impact wasn’t quite at the level of the Cybershaft clock. If the clock was the icing on the cake, the PS1 was sprinkles with a cherry on top.

My next move was to replace existing USB cables with Omega USB. I will soon be replacing all existing cables with Omega clock cables, Omega Ethernet from the wall to the ACS 10 and Omega Ethernet from the ACS10 to the W20SE (that’s how they connect). I’m also going to add an 50ohm Omega Ethernet between the W20SE and Cybershaft Clock.

At this stage, I am beyond delighted with the sound of my digital. YES, this is a hell of a lot of money and a hell of a lot of boxes, but I really feel it’s now up to snuff with what I had with the DAC I still consider the best in the world, the MSB Select II on my AG’s.

So what’s left? You know...the mind keeps thinking. Esoteric is reportedly coming out with a new ultimate reference clock (G1X). The details are sketchy at this point, but I am excited to see what the new year brings. I’m thinking of getting this new clock and possibly integrating it with the Cybershaft clock (which remains as the Master Reference Clock). This is definitely “out there” in the world of clocks, but the results could be even more incredible. Stay tuned.

https://www.esoteric.jp/images/produ...c/p1x_main.jpg

Originally Posted by Mike

Getting my digital back to close to where I was when I had the Select II at home with the Avantgarde’s has been a daunting task with my MBL 101e mk2’s.

With top cabling, Everest 8000/Omega XC, the 9008 monos/6010d pre, an Aurender W20SE/ACS10, I was well on my way to getting my MBL system to perform to its ultimate level. But finding the right sources has remained my biggest challenge.

I brought home a number of different DAC’s, some that were the absolute best with every speaker in the store, were not quite the right fit for the MBL’s. The MBL’s are different birds. They need sources which are super dynamic and detailed, but retain a smooth naturalness to the midrange with tight bass. The one thing MBL’s do is reveal any flaws or weaknesses upstream.

The MBL Reference DAC and N31 were excellent. I could have lived happily with either of those, but I kept looking. I brought home a variety of different DAC’s and CD/DAC combo’s, including the MSB, EMM, Luxman, Chord, etc. And like Goldilocks and the three bears, some where a little too smooth, others a little too bright, others a little too flat, but when I stumbled upon the K-03XD in my system, it was “just right”. I knew right there and then that the new XD sound was perfect for my MBL system.

When I jumped to the Grandioso K1X, I was a little apprehensive. I was concerned that the excellent combo I had with the K-03XD was going to somehow disappear if I moved up the chain and lead me back to going in circles. That concern was quickly dissipated from the first note from the K1X. From this point, I waited patiently for the K1X to break in before making my next move: the Cybershaft Clock and external PSU. When the clock arrived and was connected with a Shunyata Sigma 75ohm clock cable, this is when things got really interesting. I heard an even greater smoothness, but with no loss of detail. Digital immediately became a lot less digital sounding. There was no downside to this addition, only more positive attributes.

Next up, I added the Esoteric PS1. The addition of the power supply helped tighten up the bass region and provide more dynamic punch, but it’s impact wasn’t quite at the level of the Cybershaft clock. If the clock was the icing on the cake, the PS1 was sprinkles with a cherry on top.

My next move was to replace existing USB cables with Omega USB. I will soon be replacing all existing cables with Omega clock cables, Omega Ethernet from the wall to the ACS 10 and Omega Ethernet from the ACS10 to the W20SE (that’s how they connect). I’m also going to add an 50ohm Omega Ethernet between the W20SE and Cybershaft Clock.

At this stage, I am beyond delighted with the sound of my digital. YES, this is a hell of a lot of money and a hell of a lot of boxes, but I really feel it’s now up to snuff with what I had with the DAC I still consider the best in the world, the MSB Select II on my AG’s.

So what’s left? You know...the mind keeps thinking. Esoteric is reportedly coming out with a new ultimate reference clock (G1X). The details are sketchy at this point, but I am excited to see what the new year brings. I’m thinking of getting this new clock and possibly integrating it with the Cybershaft clock (which remains as the Master Reference Clock). This is definitely “out there” in the world of clocks, but the results could be even more incredible. Stay tuned.

https://www.esoteric.jp/images/produ...c/p1x_main.jpg

Congrats Mike,

Quite a system you have there! Next to my Select DAC, the Grandioso K1 was my favorite, so I’m not surprised the K1X is an ideal fit. The Select DAC is so organic sounding, it might have been too much of a good thing when paired with the inherent smoothness of the MBL 101E speakers.

Ken

Originally Posted by Alpinist

Congrats Mike,

Quite a system you have there! Next to my Select DAC, the Grandioso K1 was my favorite, so I’m not surprised the K1X is an ideal fit. The Select DAC is so organic sounding, it might have been too much of a good thing when paired with the smoothness of the MBL speakers.

Ken

You nailed it!


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Originally Posted by Mike

You nailed it!


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Esoteric has historically had a sharper attack than the MSB DACs. While this might have been somewhat exaggerated in their earlier models, they appear to have gotten it just right in their latest iteration.

Ken

dang, that's a lot of work Mike - glad you found success!

Is your Esoteric stack less expensive than the MSB Select II you originally had? I'm curious if you had found digital nirvana with the MSB, why try and recreate it with Esoteric?

Originally Posted by tino27

Is your Esoteric stack less expensive than the MSB Select II you originally had? I'm curious if you had found digital nirvana with the MSB, why try and recreate it with Esoteric?

If you read what I wrote above, I changed speakers. To compare apples to apples price wise, I really need the P1X/D1X.


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Essentially, what you are saying, is there that is not a best component, but a best system as a combination of attributes. Depending what you have down the line, will determine the best synergy.

I concur with that line of thought.


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I did actually read that you changed speakers. It never occurred to me that one might have to re-evaluate upstream components when changing speakers. I guess I always assumed that once you got your upstream components sorted, the choice of speakers would complement that stack of electronics.

Originally Posted by tino27

I did actually read that you changed speakers. It never occurred to me that one might have to re-evaluate upstream components when changing speakers. I guess I always assumed that once you got your upstream components sorted, the choice of speakers would complement that stack of electronics.

The MBL’s are different birds as I mentioned above. More careful matching the sources. I discussed my Phonostage on another thread. Horses for courses.


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BTW, congrats on getting things sorted with the Esoteric stack! I know how hard dialing in system synergy can be.

Originally Posted by Kuoppis

Essentially, what you are saying, is there that is not a best component, but a best system as a combination of attributes. Depending what you have down the line, will determine the best synergy.

I concur with that line of thought.


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Yes. I would still say the Select II is the best DAC I’ve heard, except on the different birds: MBL’s. Ditto for my Phonostage! Maybe it’s their efficiency or their lack of that makes you pick different sources. Maybe it’s the super smooth tweeter. Maybe a combination.


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Originally Posted by tino27

BTW, congrats on getting things sorted with the Esoteric stack! I know how hard dialing in system synergy can be.

Thanks. It’s been fun.


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So Mike, replacing the VAC and the MSB, what was it exactly in the sound that did not harmonize with the MBLs? Too smooth, lack of detail? Of course, AGs are like putting a stethoscope on your upstream components.

Not trying to be nosy here, trying to learn. I could see MBLs somewhere in my future as well.


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Originally Posted by Kuoppis

So Mike, replacing the VAC and the MSB, what was it exactly in the sound that did not harmonize with the MBLs? Too smooth, lack of detail? Of course, AGs are like putting a stethoscope on your upstream components.

Not trying to be nosy here, trying to learn. I could see MBLs somewhere in my future as well.


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Too smooth as Ken mentioned. The MBL tweeter is super smooth with a roll off around 14-15khz.

From Stereophile review:

“The 101E Mk.II is remarkably flat throughout the midrange and treble, and this version of the speaker is less peaky in the top octave than the original, though it does roll off quickly above 14kHz.”



Source: MBL Radialstrahler 101E Mk.II loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com



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Originally Posted by Mike

Too smooth as Ken mentioned. The MBL tweeter is super smooth with a roll off around 14-15khz.

From Stereophile review:

“The 101E Mk.II is remarkably flat throughout the midrange and treble, and this version of the speaker is less peaky in the top octave than the original, though it does roll off quickly above 14kHz.”



Source: MBL Radialstrahler 101E Mk.II loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com



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Thanks for pointing out the roll-off, Mike. That basically means that the MBLs are more tolerant towards components trimmed for high resolution and sparkle in the top-end.


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Wow, they really do roll off above 14 kHz! But they sure sound terrific. One of my top four speakers under $100K. It’s all about component matching. I rebuilt my entire system every time I’ve changed speakers.

Ken

Originally Posted by Mike

...I really need the P1X/D1X.

...now you're talking.

Originally Posted by Mike

Yes. I would still say the Select II is the best DAC I’ve heard, except on the different birds: MBL’s. Ditto for my Phonostage! Maybe it’s their efficiency or their lack of that makes you pick different sources. Maybe it’s the super smooth tweeter. Maybe a combination.


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My theory is that the the sharper attack on the leading edge of notes (sparkle or bite) of the Esoteric K1X compared to the MSB DACs offsets some of the treble roll off (smoothness) of the MBL 101E’s.

I really don’t believe it has anything to do with the level of detail, as my Select DAC has more detail than any of the three Esoteric Player/DACs I’ve owned.

This is what component matching is all about in a system, offsetting the tendencies of different components to achieve a balanced and pleasing overall presentation.

Ken

Originally Posted by Mike

..Esoteric is reportedly coming out with a new ultimate reference clock (G1X)...

Given what Cybershaft are doing it would be hard to justify pulling the trigger on G1X unless you were splashed with cash and really wanted the eye candy option for eye candy sake. I would love to own a G1X but my next clock will be a Cybershaft, hidden in the bowels of my audio rack.

Originally Posted by brodricj

Given what Cybershaft are doing it would be hard to justify pulling the trigger on G1X unless you were splashed with cash and really wanted the eye candy option for eye candy sake. I would love to own a G1X but my next clock will be a Cybershaft, hidden in the bowels of my audio rack.

I want to see the specs of the G1X. It may outperform the Cybershaft. Who knows?


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It might. But one thing is a given, it will be a lot more $$$ than the highest spec Cybershaft.

Congrats Mike!

Not surprised about the results Mike is hearing from the top shelf Esoteric digital components. Like Mike, I have an all MBL pre, amps and speakers system.

Several months ago I brought home the new Esoteric N01XD for a trial. I posted the results elsewhere on AS, but, in summary, it easily bested my current streamer and elevated the overall performance of my system. The folks at Esoteric have raised their game. And, the synergy with MBL is fabulous.

i'm guessing that the synergy in Mike's MBL system is amp<->dac related. or maybe amp/speaker <-> dac related.

but since it likely requires those big MBL amps to properly light up the MBL 101's, then there you are.

Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne

i'm guessing that the synergy in Mike's MBL system is amp<->dac related. or maybe amp/speaker <-> dac related.

but since it likely requires those big MBL amps to properly light up the MBL Extreme's, then there you are. were you to use a different set of amps then the equation would likely change. you might need a quad set of different amps. a challenging scenario.

Yes, that's absolutely true. Cables too.

This is a very interesting thread and one can see from the responses why it is so difficult to identify what the impact of any single component on the sound of our systems.

Some of this goes back to the debate of how we prioritize the components in our set-ups. (After treating your room and insuring clean power) I am in the camp of:
1- Selecting a speaker that works well "in your room"
2- Amps that get the most out of the speakers.
3- Source components
4- Cables that get you closer to the sound you are looking for.

As Mike OP notes far too often judgements are made on components/speakers without considering how they are interacting with the rest of a set-up. I think he and Mike B. (Ritmo) noted how difficult it is to match non-MBL gear with MBL speakers. I would probably own 101e MK II's right now if I didn't truly believe I would have to move from my Momentum's to 9000 series MBL amps. Even though I believe that M-400's should be "included" in any discussion of Best Amps I think 101's and Xtreme's will always sound best with 9000 series amps. MBL's are not easy speakers to control.

Another interesting comment from Ken in Post #20 relates to MSB "detail". I have not had the Select DAC in my set-up so I can only comment on the Reference version. When A/B'ing the Reference versus Vivaldi the MSB was absolutely stunning on vocals. The Reference DAC cleaned up something, call it hash if you want, that accompanied vocals. It was one of those things you did not know was there 'till it was gone. Detail is where the MSB trailed. At the time I posted my thoughts I noted one example where birds could be heard at the beginning of one track with the Vivaldi, yet you could barely make them out with the Reference DAC. In this comparison if one was choosing DAC system based on vocals and price, just the way most purchasers lean, the Reference wins out. If you are looking for extracting all of the detail in a recording and you were willing to spend a bit more, the Vivaldi could be the choice. Since most of us are not starting from ground zero others factors come into play.

Originally Posted by apdoc2004

Jim,
Could you let me know the name of the song with the chirping of the birds in the beginning? It will be a good test for my system.
Thanks,
Anshul

On Ummagumma/ Grantchester Meadows from Pink Floyd there’s some chirping at the beginning, and throughout the song.

But that’s probably not the song, because if you wouldn’t hear that chirping clearly and well differentiated with a 90K DAC, you’d been profoundly screwed . It’s a great audiophile track anyway.


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Originally Posted by Bairdg

Well, after chatting with Mike in the background a fair amount in recent weeks, I think it is appropriate for me to contribute to this forum my experience with the K1X/PS1/Cybershaft setup, by combining and editing several posts I made on another forum.

I recently replaced an Esoteric D02/P02/G01 stack with an Esoteric K1X/PS1/Cybershaft OP21A/Ultra Pure PS setup. For me, the K1X is a revelation, especially in combination with the PS1 and the Cybershaft clock and PS. To my ears, the sound I am getting is better than what I have heard from both a DCS Vivaldi stack and a Nagra HD DAC X in a system with the same electronics as mine with Magico M3 speakers, and is in the same league (at least at first blush) as what I heard at MagicoÂ’s facility from a system consisting of MSB Select II feeding CH Precision M1 monos (might have been M1.1s) and Magico M6 speakers. To be fair, I listened to this last system for only an hour, using music I know well, and some cuts chosen by Alon Wolf. It could well be the case that if I had spent significant time with it, I may be more or less willing to state that the sound I am getting is in the same league as that being produced by the system at MagicoÂ’s facility.

In any event, what I hear from the K1X is music with a transparency, organic immediacy, unetched detail, tonal density, three dimensionality, openness and incredibly well articulated, center of the earth bass that is only matched by the system I heard at Magico. It goes without saying that there are plenty of great systems with great digital front ends I have not heard. But I sure do love what I am hearing. Interestingly, I am getting this sound, which largely mirror's Mike's experience, in a system that incudes electronics and speakers that are very different than Mike's, especially the speakers and electronics.

The other equipment in my system includes a Baetis Ref server (soon to be replaced by a Taiko SGM Extreme), Spectral DMC 30SV pre/DMA 500 AR mono amps, MIT SHD interconnects and speaker cable and Magico M Project speakers. Clock cables are Shunyata Sigma v1. Looking forward to getting the v2 version, or perhaps the Omega version :-). I also own a Spectral 4000SV CD player, and while it is higher resolution than the Esoteric P02/D02/G01 on redbook CD and creates a wonderful synergy when used in an all Spectral SV topology setup, it is clearly bested by the new rig and has been largely collecting dust of late. For those who are interested in some clock comparisons, and the relative contribution of the Cybershaft vs the PS1, read on.

Before selling the G01, I tried using it with the K1X and found that whereas the G01 was necessary for the D02/P02 to sound highly resolving and musical (rather than fairly resolving and a touch too analytical, which they did without the clock), it did not provide the K1X with a clear improvement. Indeed, I slightly preferred the K1X without the G01, although my wife (a jazz vocalist with an excellent ear) slightly preferred it with the G01. By contrast, the Cybershaft clock and itÂ’s PS made a dramatic improvement to the sound of the K1X, which already sounded streets ahead of the older stack. This improvement was in the nature of greatly enhanced spatial resolution and transparency. It was more impactful than the addition of the Esoteric PS1, which I would characterize as being akin to going from a great stereo amp to a pair of monoblocks based on the same circuit design (larger soundstage and better low end and better dynamics). Further, adding the G01 to control my DCS Network Bridge as a Word Clock generator while slaved to the Cybershaft added no noticeable improvement as compared to not having the G01 in the system. I appreciate that the G01 is not the latest offering from Esoteric, but it is the data point that I have.

What I did not do was wait the presumably 200 hours or whatever the burn in period is for the K1X before adding the clock and the PS1. Rather, I had the K1X for about ten days before I had the clock, and it was another week or so before the PS1 showed up. During the period from getting the K1X and finally the PS1, I was only semi-diligent about burning in the new pieces. So it is reasonable to conclude that some (significant) improvements continued to take place in each component in addition to compounding improvements being realized by the addition of the clock and then the PS1. Indeed, the whole setup does seem to me to be getting better still. I have also not gone back and tried the K1X with the PS1 but without the clock, or with the clock and without the PS1 now that they have undergone perhaps 100 hours of use. So, my inquiry is far from being as methodical as it might be. That said, I am pretty confident in my conclusion that forced to choose I would take the clock over the PS1.

Thanks for your post. Interesting comments. I owned the Grandioso K1 and found it to be very musical with a warm and organic presentation. When I added the Grandioso G1 Clock, I got quite a bit more detail and clarity but the musicality to my ears went way down. I was frustrated with this result, so I traded in the Grandioso K1/G1 for the MSB Select DAC, which gave me both a high level of detail and musicality. Had I not purchased the Grandioso G1 Clock, I would probably still own the Grandioso K1, although I may have upgraded, yet again, to the Grandioso K1X. Maybe the Cybershaft Clock is just plain better than the Esoteric Clock.

Ken

Originally Posted by apdoc2004

Jim,
Could you let me know the name of the song with the chirping of the birds in the beginning? It will be a good test for my system.
Thanks,
Anshul

See Post #79 in this thread should you care for additional details. MSB Reference DAC

The song was Melody Gardot's "After The Rain"

An aside, my local dealer and I have discussed performing another A/B in my set-up. Awhile back they swapped out the Femto 77 for the Femto 33 clock.

Originally Posted by bernardl

I may have an opportunity to buy a second hand N01XD..

Huh? How can there be a 2nd hand N01XD out there, not even a year since it was released, right?

Probably the cash. Because probably nothing better. Hope you get to get one.

It looks like I am not hesitating anymore...

So when are we getting Roon support again? ;-)

Originally Posted by bernardl

So when are we getting Roon support again? ;-)

As of October, Esoteric was working with Roon on that. Two months later.... nobody knows 🤦*♂️

Santa brought a few goodies for me.

Shunyata Omega 75 Clock Cable - for Aurender W20SE to clock off the Cybershaft OP21A
Shunyata Omega 50 Clock Cable - for the Esoteric Grandioso K1X to clock off the Cybershaft OP21A
Shunyata Omega Ethernet Cable (long run) - from switch to ACS10
Shunyata Omega Ethernet Cable (short run) - from ACS10 to W20SE. I already had a Shunyata Omega USB cable which runs from the W20SE to the Esoteric Grandioso K1X.

When I first connected the W20SE to the clock, I went into Advanced Settings2 and enabled to WORD clock. I sat back and listened. It sounded like crap. Compressed soundstage, veiled, etc. Then I remembered the upsampling rates of the DAC, in this case, my Esoteric Grandioso K1X must match the W20SE and visa versa. I have always liked 4fs on the K1X which is upsampling everything to 176.4, so I set the up sample rate under the WORD Clock Setting on Aurender Settings2 to 176.4 and VOILA! Magic! PURE magic!

I’ll let these new cables burn in before further evaluating things.

Originally Posted by Mike

Santa brought a few goodies for me.

Shunyata Omega 75 Clock Cable - for Aurender W20SE to clock off the Cybershaft OP21A
Shunyata Omega 50 Clock Cable - for the Esoteric Grandioso K1X to clock off the Cybershaft OP21A
Shunyata Omega Ethernet Cable (long run) - from switch to ACS10
Shunyata Omega Ethernet Cable (short run) - from ACS10 to W20SE. I already had a Shunyata Omega USB cable which runs from the W20SE to the Esoteric Grandioso K1X.

When I first connected the W20SE to the clock, I went into Advanced Settings2 and enabled to WORD clock. I sat back and listened. It sounded like crap. Compressed soundstage, veiled, etc. Then I remembered the upsampling rates of the DAC, in this case, my Esoteric Grandioso K1X must match the W20SE and visa versa. I have always liked 4fs on the K1X which is upsampling everything to 176.4, so I set the up sample rate under the WORD Clock Setting on Aurender Settings2 to 176.4 and VOILA! Magic! PURE magic!

I’ll let these new cables burn in before further evaluating things.

Nice Mike! Also gulp. That is $12k of clock cables in my set-up!!

Can’t imagine the improvement you must get with the Omega Ethernet

Mike: are you able to discern any difference between Omega Ethernet and Sigma Ethernet? Thanks

With all of those goodies, Santa thinks you were not “naughty” this year!

Originally Posted by thyname

Mike: are you able to discern any difference between Omega Ethernet and Sigma Ethernet? Thanks

Yes, BUT, not as significant as the USB.


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Mike,...outstanding! Congratulations!