Thread: To clock or not to clock?

Have you tried using the AES/EBU connection between your units? This offers a superior connection than coax or optical - it's the professional standard.

Personally I leave USB (a computer industry protocol) to PC applications. If your 2 Esoteric units can't sort out clocking between themselves, I wonder if an extra box will accomplish anything better!

Originally Posted by Paleo137

Hi,

I am considering adding the Esoteric G 05 clock to my system.

My digital front end is an Esoteric K 01 XD which is connected with a USB cable to an Esoteric N 03 T operating in RAAT mode and connected to a Roon NUC via the LAN.

According the K01 manual, “the USB input does not support clock synchronization.”

So far, I have not tried out any other ways of connecting the K 01 to the N 03 T as I gather that, by using USB, both streamer and DAC are controlled by the same clock. The USB connection also supports higher bit rates than RCA or optical. So far, I have not come across 32-bit files in the wild.

My dealer lent me a TEAC clock. While playing a high-quality CD the sound became very precise, almost etched, but not in a bad way. I was a bit unsure how this would work out long-term. With a rather poor CD the added precision was not helpful at all.

The K01 has a Grandioso Custom VCXO II clock; the G05 is a SXT 03 OCXO clock. I know nothing about clocks, and I wonder if the G05, being only a clock, would improve upon the K01 clock.
As I stream about 80% of the time, to really benefit from a better clock it would be necessary to change the way of connecting the DAC to the streamer and have both devices synchronized by the G05. This would mean buying three new cables as well.

I would be grateful for any advice on this idea, especially from people who have tried a similar move.

I have been using the K01-XD as a optical disc transport and DAC in my system along with an Aurender N20 for streaming for 3 years or so. In that configuration I connected via USB. From the beginning I was impressed with the performance achieved by Esoteric's relatively new Master Sound Discrete DAC. Exceptionally musical and refined without the dryness I had experienced with the dCS Puccini DAC and clock it replaced (something that wasn't as apparent until I compared it to the K01XD in my system).

Encouraged by what I read in posts here on Audioshark by SCAudiophile regarding the (new to me) Cybershaft master clocks I purchased a Cybershaft OP21A-D clock ~ 2 years ago.

As you point out, the addition of a master clock requires the use of a digital connection other than USB. Given the digital inputs available on the K01XD I ended up using the RCA.

As good as the performance of the USB connection was prior to the addition of the Cybershaft, without a doubt, the sound quality with the addition of the outboard master clock was superior. More coherent presentation from side to side and top to bottom. The transparency of the system was improved significantly. Bass and rhythmic drive was so much better, I could not believe how much I was leaving on the table prior to the addition of the master clock.

IMO, in the era of digital music transports and streaming, a master clock should be considered an essential component. I hope you try the Esoteric G05 in your system. I would enjoy reading your impressions.

Using the 10 MHz connection from DAC to clock won't do anything when using USB for the digital connection? I was thinking of adding a clock someday but only have USB as an option.

Originally Posted by mxk116

I have been using the K01-XD as a optical disc transport and DAC in my system along with an Aurender N20 for streaming for 3 years or so. In that configuration I connected via USB. From the beginning I was impressed with the performance achieved by Esoteric's relatively new Master Sound Discrete DAC. Exceptionally musical and refined without the dryness I had experienced with the dCS Puccini DAC and clock it replaced (something that wasn't as apparent until I compared it to the K01XD in my system).

Encouraged by what I read in posts here on Audioshark by SCAudiophile regarding the (new to me) Cybershaft master clocks I purchased a Cybershaft OP21A-D clock ~ 2 years ago.

As you point out, the addition of a master clock requires the use of a digital connection other than USB. Given the digital inputs available on the K01XD I ended up using the RCA.

As good as the performance of the USB connection was prior to the addition of the Cybershaft, without a doubt, the sound quality with the addition of the outboard master clock was superior. More coherent presentation from side to side and top to bottom. The transparency of the system was improved significantly. Bass and rhythmic drive was so much better, I could not believe how much I was leaving on the table prior to the addition of the master clock.

IMO, in the era of digital music transports and streaming, a master clock should be considered an essential component. I hope you try the Esoteric G05 in your system. I would enjoy reading your impressions.

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

Using the 10 MHz connection from DAC to clock won't do anything when using USB for the digital connection?

Correct. Syncronization between USB source and DAC happens over USB bi-direction communication. The DAC needs to tell the USB source when it's ready to receive the next chunk of data. If I had a N-03T and the capacity to own a master clock generator + cables, that is what I'd do. When you scroll through input sources on Esoteric digital device they appear in order of most best to least best. ES-LINK is always most best, USB is always least best in the order.

On another thread someone said using the 10 MHz connection the external clock takes the place of the DAC's internal clock. Some friends say clocks won't do anything unless you have more than one component plugged into them which the clock would then sync those components. I will table the urge to clock until some definite facts can be determined. Esoteric has a good website comparatively but I'd think better information should be out there on how to use the clock.

Originally Posted by brodricj

Correct. Syncronization between USB source and DAC happens over USB bi-direction communication. The DAC needs to tell the USB source when it's ready to receive the next chunk of data. If I had a N-03T and the capacity to own a master clock generator + cables, that is what I'd do. When you scroll through input sources on Esoteric digital device they appear in order of most best to least best. ES-LINK is always most best, USB is always least best in the order.

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

..I will table the urge to clock until some definite facts can be determined. ..

The definite facts are well known. There are no known unknowns.

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

On another thread someone said using the 10 MHz connection the external clock takes the place of the DAC's internal clock.

No it doesn't.

Then what is the 10 MHz connection for? If it's as you say it seems all sources should connect to the clock, pass through it then out an output which then would go to the DAC.

From what you are saying a clock would not do me any good using USB out of my ACS10 into the N05xd USB input.

You say facts have been determined but no one has been able to explain how these clocks work. How they should be used properly. I'd even accept a link to something.

Originally Posted by brodricj

No it doesn't.

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

..Some friends say clocks won't do anything unless you have more than one component plugged into them which the clock would then sync those components....

Not quite right. In D1X an external clock is only used to synchronize any digital sources which support external clock. If the digital sources do not support external clock you do not clock D1X. In the K series an external clock (if used) is syncronized with the internal master sound discrete clock to provide a master clock signal which gets distributed to the CD/SACD playback circuit. Similarly, when using digital sources input to K series that do not support clocking the external clock should be off. What happens if you clock the DAC but not the digital source a data bit gets dropped in the D/A data clock and you get sonic artifacts. So your friends are not quite right.

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

..How they should be used properly. I'd even accept a link to something.

How they should be used properly is written in the owners manual. In your case you can expect better sound clocking the N-03T to the K-05XD compared to using the USB connection. But you are wasting your time with G-05 unless you also invest in 2 x clock cables of suitable pedigree. The owners manual doesn't tell you that, but that is a known known from vast end user experience reported here that is overwhelming. It has been written about extensively in this forum.

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

Then what is the 10 MHz connection for?

It is used to connect a master clock generator - which has higher precision and lower phase noise than the internal master sound discrete clock - to the clock synchronization circuit to produce a combined master clock signal distributed by the Digital FPGA to the DAC FPGA (and the CD/SACD circuit). The internal master sound discrete clock is always in the circuit.

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

..no one has been able to explain how these clocks work..

You don't need to know how a sausage machine works. As a consumer of sausages you only have casual interest knowing your sausage was made by a sausage machine.

I found this, just an example of why I'm in the dark.
One Master to Rule Them All
Which brings up another point — there can only be one master clock in a digital system. If multiple devices are trying to be the word clock master or each is running off of its own internal clock, then the digital data streams won’t line up, and you’ll hear clicks, pops, and general badness in the audio. So, if you’re using two or more pieces of digital gear, and they’re connected using AES, S/PDIF, or ADAT digital formats, ensure that one piece (the one with the best clock, or an external, standalone clock) is the master and everything else is set to slave off of that.

This seems to contradict your answer.

Originally Posted by brodricj

No it doesn't.

The owner's manual does not. I read the G05 just this morning and it's very vague. It tells you how to hook it up and that's about it.

I'm not the OP. In my situation I only have the ACS10 going to the N05xd via USB. So I could connect the N05xd to a G05 but it seems this would do nothing to help?

Originally Posted by brodricj

How they should be used properly is written in the owners manual. In your case you can expect better sound clocking the N-03T to the K-05XD compared to using the USB connection. But you are wasting your time with G-05 unless you also invest in 2 x clock cables of suitable pedigree. The owners manual doesn't tell you that, but that is a known known from vast end user experience reported here that is overwhelming. It has been written about extensively in this forum.

Brodricj is spot-on with this.

There are ample papers, texts, etc. from the scientific community, the satellite comms, and other technical communities as to how isotope decay-based atomic clocks, stabilized crystal-based master clocks and other devices (word clocks) and clock circuits are built and why they exist.

In audio to understand why better clocks, both onboard and offboard, make a difference, it is useful to understand the problem domain itself, jitter, and phase noise in digital signals & circuits.

This text is a very deep read and also covers atomic and other clocks and their effects together with related topics...

No audio manufacturer will ever document all the info needed to answer the call above. As Brodricj states, the well known info is out there.



Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk

The book:

Understanding Jitter and Phase Noise: A Circuits and Systems Perspective https://a.co/d/4CLASnX

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

..there can only be one master clock in a digital system....This seems to contradict your answer.

Correct. And no it doesn't.

There is a master clock generator, which gets connected to the 10 MHz input of the DAC.
There is the master sound discrete clock, which is inside the DAC which you can't do much about except choose whether its oven is always on or not.
There is the clock sync circuit, which is inside the DAC which you can switch on/off in the device menu.
The master clock generator and the master sound discrete clock are both connected to the clock sync circuit.
The output of the clock sync circuit is simply called the master clock, and it gets distributed where it needs to go. It can be syncronized to the master clock generator 10 MHz signal or not depending on the user preference.
In some Esoteric master clock generators (such as G02X) there is also another clock input for a 1 pps GPS reference clock signal. If used you then have four clock signals in the system serving a purpose, but still only one master clock signal (at the output of the clock sync circuit).
Esoteric has moved away from word clocks. G02X was the last Esoteric master clock generator that supports the 44.1/48 MHz groups. And the current Esoteric players/DAC's do not support word clock inputs. Not even the flagship D1X-SE or K1X-SE support word clocks.

...and to wrap all this up (hopefully) the 1 pps clock signal (if used) and the master clock generator 10 MHz clock signal (if used) increase the timing precision, lower the jitter, and lower the phase noise of the master clock signal. Which yields sonic benefits when you sync the digital source to the DAC/player. All this stuff can be physically hooked up together, but when you select from the MENU "CLOCK SYNC OFF" in the DAC only the master sound discrete clock is used as the master clock timing reference. The master sound discrete clock is always in the circuit.

Why would the clock not work if you use USB out from the source? I would be USB to DAC then 10 MHz connection from DAC to clock.

Bottomline the clock would not do me any good because I only have the DAC with the 10 MHz connection?

Originally Posted by brodricj

...and to wrap all this up (hopefully) the 1 pps clock signal (if used) and the master clock generator 10 MHz clock signal (if used) increase the timing precision, lower the jitter, and lower the phase noise of the master clock signal. Which yields sonic benefits when you sync the digital source to the DAC/player. All this stuff can be physically hooked up together, but when you select from the MENU "CLOCK SYNC OFF" in the DAC only the master sound discrete clock is used as the master clock timing reference. The master sound discrete clock is always in the circuit.

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

Why would the clock not work if you use USB out from the source?

Why would what clock not work, the master sound discrete clock? or the external clock?

USB input uses the master sound discrete clock as the master clock, not the external clock. It's designed that way.