Thread: Samtastic!

Listening to Devialets SAM technology on my fact 8s for the first time tonight. WOW! BASS!!!!!!

Id tried SAM with a pair of Dynaudio focus 160s a few weeks ago and actually didn't like it, but with my fact 8s, it's very good indeed. Bass is pretty spectacular now from these otherwise lean leaning speakers.

I can A/B the SAM with the remote so my first thought was that this new bass may degrade the mids and highs, but that does not appear to be the case. Jury's still out because I need to hear it with more material, but so far liking what I'm hearing. Impressive!

This is so cool to hear, but I wonder why the formula for the 160's didn't work as you expected. Any ideas?


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My guess is the dyNaudio focus 160 is a speaker that is already very accomplished in the bass department. So with the SAM, it was a bit too bass heavy. The fact 8 on the other hand really mates perfectly with the extra bass.

It doesn't seem to add bass that doesn't exist. Meaning tracks that have little bass content remain so, but tracks that do have prominent bass, the bass is deeper and more impactful.

SAM is really interesting technology and kudos to Devialet for making it so speaker specific.


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Glad you are loving the SAM technology, if we can get enough votes for my Strads, I may give the Devialet a try.

Originally Posted by Dizzie

jaxwired,

Did you try various levels of SAM ob both speakers? You might have liked a reduced level on the Dynaudio.

No, I did not try that. I simply tried "ON" or "OFF". You may well be right. 100% on seems to be quite good with the PMCs though.

Originally Posted by JDLaudio

Good ole DSP is finally getting some much needed praise.

As long as you don't mind all of your source material being played back at 24/96.

But it is a BIG limitation until they decide to do something about it. Maybe not for others. And there's no guarantees.

Originally Posted by JDLaudio

Good ole DSP is finally getting some much needed praise.

But shouldn't DSP also consider the placement of speakers in the room and the subsequent interaction?

Is this as complete as what Acourate and Spatial computing offer?

Originally Posted by Myles B. Astor

But it is a BIG limitation until they decide to do something about it. Maybe not for others. And there's no guarantees.

You know what just struck me as being really ironic and kind of funny when you consider all of the digital lovers who proclaim their distaste for all things analog? Digital has to be converted to analog in order for us to hear it. There is no way around it, it's just a matter of how the digital conversion to analog will take place. On the other hand, there is no reason why analog can't remain analog from the time it's recorded until it comes out the other end of your speakers and fills your room with sound.

Originally Posted by mep

You know what just struck me as being really ironic and kind of funny when you consider all of the digital lovers who proclaim their distaste for all things analog? Digital has to be converted to analog in order for us to hear it. There is no way around it, it's just a matter of how the digital conversion to analog will take place. On the other hand, there is no reason why analog can't remain analog from the time it's recorded until it comes out the other end of your speakers and fills your room with sound.

Very true, but storage of data works far better as digital than analog. Analog data degrades over time. Everytime you play vinyl or tape you've degraded the original a bit more. Digital is static the data never changes. Play it a million times, sounds as fresh as day one. Not to mention the physical limitations of dynamic range that can be imbedded in vinyl. Digital has no such limitations. Digital is a far superior way to store an analog signal if you want to capture the original signal without limitations and you want to maintain the fidelity of that signal over time.

Originally Posted by JDLaudio

Acourate and AudioLense are far superior, I'm sure. DSP can be used to correct just the power response of the speakers themselves, or also include some room correction. Acourate and AudioLense even correct for phase, which can be made much worse by equalization. Equalization without phase correction can sometimes cause more problems than it solves.

Agreed,

I see the very expensive (but desirable) FM Acoustics Linear Harmonizer can do equalization without the phase distortions. We got a nice demo of it in warsaw. I wish that stuff was more "affordable". LoL

So what's the early consensus on SAM?? I read some love it, others not so much.

If I understand this article correctly, Jeff took the S1 SAM configuration and used it on his Q7's and proclaimed it to be the best match for the Q7's he's ever heard?

I asked Devialet support about using the SAM profile for the a different model, but same brand...here is what they said:

"Dear Mike,

Thank you for your message.

Regarding SAM profiles, each of them are unique to a specific model of speaker.

For each profile, over 60 measurements were taken, measurements such as maximum excursion for instance. It means that every speaker has its own excursion. It could be dangerous for a speaker to take another profile than its own as the excursion might be different. It could indeed damage the speaker, and this is just regarding excursion maximum.

I hope it does answer your question.

Best regards from Paris,"

So, as of now, SAM voting for Q7 is at a whopping 4%...so given the above....I hope Jeff didn't damage those big Q7's.

Welcome to the forum Jeff !!!!

Thank you for joining !!!

Originally Posted by Jeff Fritz

Hi fellas,

I turned SAM off when I switched over to the Q7s. Pretty big difference in bass response between an S1 and a Q7

Thanks for reading!

Jeff

Thanks for clarifying Jeff.


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It sounds like SAM is doing what Deqx have been doing for years with their speaker calibration.

I guess "EQ" is still verboten in Audiophilespeak and "Preset EQ" is outright heresy.

Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield

I guess "EQ" is still verboten in Audiophilespeak and "Preset EQ" is outright heresy.

Its downright blasphemy!


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Originally Posted by Bobolaclune

Interesting thread. If we accept that the room is the single biggest component we have and if we accept (as I have come to do) that the Raidhos have unusual room responses .... it naturally follows that a combination of room correction and SAM may actually be the optimal way to deal with the Raidho bass response. Raidhos suggested room positioning (wide apart , heavily toed in , close to sidewall boundaries , close to listener plane) is sufficiently unusual that audiophiles will experience a number of issues arising out of that. Their room treatments , prior speaker positioning and most importantly, mindset are setup for another ballgame altogether . Raidhos are clean-slate speakers and a lot of those preconceptions have to be thrown out.

I completely rail against the idea that a number of expensive and elaborate power, speaker and interconnect choices have to be made in order to render the speakers truly workable. If that is the case , that suggests that Raidho has embarked on a new business strategy that involves ensnaring audiophiles in a continuous chain of connected purchases as they frustrate themselves into an orgy of Raidho-Ansuz buying . "Say it ain't so!!!"

The alternative - is that we are simply dealing with a product that is in many ways, not completely thought through and where the designers have made deliberate choices which have left the speakers tantalizingly close to greatness without actually ever achieving it. I note that they remain conspicuous by their absence from this & other Forums.

Either way , f1eng's suggestion above is a good one - a combination of SAM & room correction may be what the Raidhos need to get us , the consumer to where the Company should have taken us in the first place.

Hello ? Lars ? Michael? Are you listening?.........

Shodhan

This post is one of the most honest assessments of Raidho issues that I have read yet. The crazy aunt in the attic has been brought downstairs for all of the relatives to see.

Originally Posted by Mike

Its downright blasphemy!


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Cello Pallette?

That said, let's not's be naive here. It always comes back to is the cure worse than the disease? Not to mention everyone's situation is different.

Back in the Dark Ages, audio equipment use to have things called "tone controls", but these were found to be tools of the devil and cast out. Because we know every audiophile has perfect speaker/room interface, output impedance and recordings.
Much better to lift those cables for any hint of brightness and for misbehaving bass, turn what was once a "family"/"living" room into something resembling an iso-ward at an asylum.

Ok, I'm done now.

Originally Posted by Bobolaclune

Interesting thread. If we accept that the room is the single biggest component we have and if we accept (as I have come to do) that the Raidhos have unusual room responses .... it naturally follows that a combination of room correction and SAM may actually be the optimal way to deal with the Raidho bass response. Raidhos suggested room positioning (wide apart , heavily toed in , close to sidewall boundaries , close to listener plane) is sufficiently unusual that audiophiles will experience a number of issues arising out of that. Their room treatments , prior speaker positioning and most importantly, mindset are setup for another ballgame altogether . Raidhos are clean-slate speakers and a lot of those preconceptions have to be thrown out.

I completely rail against the idea that a number of expensive and elaborate power, speaker and interconnect choices have to be made in order to render the speakers truly workable. If that is the case , that suggests that Raidho has embarked on a new business strategy that involves ensnaring audiophiles in a continuous chain of connected purchases as they frustrate themselves into an orgy of Raidho-Ansuz buying . "Say it ain't so!!!"

The alternative - is that we are simply dealing with a product that is in many ways, not completely thought through and where the designers have made deliberate choices which have left the speakers tantalizingly close to greatness without actually ever achieving it. I note that they remain conspicuous by their absence from this & other Forums.

Either way , f1eng's suggestion above is a good one - a combination of SAM & room correction may be what the Raidhos need to get us , the consumer to where the Company should have taken us in the first place.

Hello ? Lars ? Michael? Are you listening?.........

Shodhan

Reading posts like this brings back memories. It was almost 2 years ago when Jock (The Professor) and myself purchased Raidho D1's at the same time. We were the first in the U.S. The proverbial guinea pigs. There was very little information on the web about the "C" series on the internet other than a few users in Asia who were very happy with them. There was nothing on the D series of course. Bob (Vintage Tube) as many will remember had purchased the Raidho C3.1's before the D series was announced. I attempted to reach Bob, but he has become quite the recluse after an incident on another forum. I spoke with his dealer, John at Audio Salon, and John said Bob continues to be very happy with his C3.1's. So, I went ahead and purchased the Raidho D1's from John in Miami. John tried to help, but he too was unfamiliar with the D series. So, Jock and I were left to struggle through the same things many of your are experiencing on our own.

Our problems became exacerbated when we both, once again, at the same time, purchased D3's (version 1). I can still remember to this day, getting them home, unpacking them with an audiophile friend, setting them up where I had the D1's, and sat there and listened to what can only be described as bad. The bloated bass, the stiff new drivers, combined with my challenging room, quickly turned my smile upside down. To use a line from Michael Kim, it sounded like I had 10 cheap subwoofers in the room. Jock too was experiencing similar challenges. But as we piled on the hours (we were hopeful that 500 hours was the magic number! ), we could hear the Raidho magic creeping through. We were determined. We worked together. Emailing. Texting. Talking. He was thinking up new ideas to tame the bass, I was constantly reaching out to Lars and Michael who were quite helpful, but many of their suggestions ultimately failed. I tried granite, cables, electrical grounding, mechanical grounding, whatever was suggested or any ideas Jock and I drummed up.

If any of you have bothered to watch the Room Acoustic video Myles posted the other day, you will note how the expert says listening in the near field reduces the speaker/room interaction (which is obvious). I tried listening in the near field, long wall, short wall, normal listening position,etc., and in my main room, the result was always the same. As a side note, I observed those who visited my listening room while I had the D3's and noted how most were VERY uncomfortable listening near field. Many would get up and walk and stand several feet behind the chair. They simply hated listening in near field. One guy said, "by the way those drivers are vibrating and popping, I think they are going to fly out and hit me in the head." Eventually, I just gave up and sold the D3 v1's.

I returned to Raidho with the launch of the D3 v2. This time around, I had better success. I tried the D3 v2 in my main room, but the bass wasn't much better. When I moved them into my rather large great room (45' x 15' x 13' ceilings), powered them with the VAC phi200's, I had finally got them. Bass problems were gone. The magic was there. I eventually sold them (as us gear swappers do), and I will say, I do honestly miss their 3D/holographic magic. I would love to own the D5's one day, but its unlikely to happen any time soon give the space requirements. I was going to go with D5's, but after seeing them and asking questions about their space requirements, I thought it best to hold off.

So, the point is, I know what all of you are going through. You can hear the magic. You can hear the potential. You want them to work sooooo badly. I will tell you it IS possible. I was able to get them to perfection - but it took a room where essentially the room wasn't in the equation. It took the right amps (VAC phi200's). It took weeks of experimenting with setup to get things dialed in just right. And yes, in the end, the gear swapping bug hit, I blew it all up and moved on.

When I spoke with Lars at RMAF, he showed me the treatments they are working on (of course, the cynic in me did think "are they selling me a problem only so they can sell me a solution?"). From what I heard, I think these treatments are well worth exploring.

I chuckled when I started to read about the DSP discussion and Raidho's. I thought to myself "yup, been there, done that too". When I had the Raidho D3 v1's, I tried the McIntosh MEN 220, DSPeaker 2.0, DEQX and several other DSP products. Yup, they worked, the boomy bass was fixed, but guess what? The magic was gone too.

Good luck - I really do hope you reach Raidho nirvana.

Originally Posted by Mike

Reading posts like this brings back memories. It was almost 2 years ago when Jock (The Professor) and myself purchased Raidho D1's at the same time. We were the first in the U.S. The proverbial guinea pigs. There was very little information on the web about the "C" series on the internet other than a few users in Asia who were very happy with them. There was nothing on the D series of course. Bob (Vintage Tube) as many will remember had purchased the Raidho C3.1's before the D series was announced. I attempted to reach Bob, but he has become quite the recluse after an incident on another forum. I spoke with his dealer, John at Audio Salon, and John said Bob continues to be very happy with his C3.1's. So, I went ahead and purchased the Raidho D1's from John in Miami. John tried to help, but he too was unfamiliar with the D series. So, Jock and I were left to struggle through the same things many of your are experiencing on our own.

Our problems became exacerbated when we both, once again, at the same time, purchased D3's (version 1). I can still remember to this day, getting them home, unpacking them with an audiophile friend, setting them up where I had the D1's, and sat there and listened to what can only be described as bad. The bloated bass, the stiff new drivers, combined with my challenging room, quickly turned my smile upside down. To use a line from Michael Kim, it sounded like I had 10 cheap subwoofers in the room. Jock too was experiencing similar challenges. But as we piled on the hours (we were hopeful that 500 hours was the magic number! ), we could hear the Raidho magic creeping through. We were determined. We worked together. Emailing. Texting. Talking. He was thinking up new ideas to tame the bass, I was constantly reaching out to Lars and Michael who were quite helpful, but many of their suggestions ultimately failed. I tried granite, cables, electrical grounding, mechanical grounding, whatever was suggested or any ideas Jock and I drummed up.

If any of you have bothered to watch the Room Acoustic video Myles posted the other day, you will note how the expert says listening in the near field reduces the speaker/room interaction (which is obvious). I tried listening in the near field, long wall, short wall, normal listening position,etc., and in my main room, the result was always the same. As a side note, I observed those who visited my listening room while I had the D3's and noted how most were VERY uncomfortable listening near field. Many would get up and walk and stand several feet behind the chair. They simply hated listening in near field. One guy said, "by the way those drivers are vibrating and popping, I think they are going to fly out and hit me in the head." Eventually, I just gave up and sold the D3 v1's.

I returned to Raidho with the launch of the D3 v2. This time around, I had better success. I tried the D3 v2 in my main room, but the bass wasn't much better. When I moved them into my rather large great room (45' x 15' x 13' ceilings), powered them with the VAC phi200's, I had finally got them. Bass problems were gone. The magic was there. I eventually sold them (as us gear swappers do), and I will say, I do honestly miss their 3D/holographic magic. I would love to own the D5's one day, but its unlikely to happen any time soon give the space requirements. I was going to go with D5's, but after seeing them and asking questions about their space requirements, I thought it best to hold off.

So, the point is, I know what all of you are going through. You can hear the magic. You can hear the potential. You want them to work sooooo badly. I will tell you it IS possible. I was able to get them to perfection - but it took a room where essentially the room wasn't in the equation. It took the right amps (VAC phi200's). It took weeks of experimenting with setup to get things dialed in just right. And yes, in the end, the gear swapping bug hit, I blew it all up and moved on.

When I spoke with Lars at RMAF, he showed me the treatments they are working on (of course, the cynic in me did think "are they selling me a problem only so they can sell me a solution?"). From what I heard, I think these treatments are well worth exploring.

I chuckled when I started to read about the DSP discussion and Raidho's. I thought to myself "yup, been there, done that too". When I had the Raidho D3 v1's, I tried the McIntosh MEN 220, DSPeaker 2.0, DEQX and several other DSP products. Yup, they worked, the boomy bass was fixed, but guess what? The magic was gone too.

Good luck - I really do hope you reach Raidho nirvana.

When you get there, are you greeted by a leprechaun with a pot of gold?

They sounded very good at Rhapsody in NYC when I heard them. Deeeep soundstage.

To be honest, I have to wonder why bother with raidhos at all? Lots of other superb speakers that don't have these problems. Many that are cheaper actually.

I heard D3s recently and my first comment was "wow, that's a lot of bass" and the room was quite large with large openings at side and back. And the speakers were well clear of room boundaries. And the electronics used were not bass bandits, to the contrary.

Shodhan - another Danish speaker that is no slouch:



DALI EPICON 8 | New High-End Reference Loudspeaker

I've had mine for the better part of 6 weeks now and I'm really loving them. They have vocals to die for (probably the best I've heard in my family room). Top end is airy and sweet and has this "ease" to it. Bass is defined and proportionate. They produce a HUGE soundstage. Setup took me only a few minutes (playing them straight on as they are designed to do - really helps). They look gorgeous. They are the quintessential plug-n-play speaker.

I would characterize their sound as slightly warm, full-bodied, smooth and very musical.

Originally Posted by Bobolaclune

Wonderful....enjoy Mike. So glad they're everything you hoped for. And a nice match with the NuVista to boot. Awesome

For the money, they are superb and so musically satisfying.

Originally Posted by Mike

Shodhan - another Danish speaker that is no slouch:



DALI EPICON 8 | New High-End Reference Loudspeaker

I've had mine for the better part of 6 weeks now and I'm really loving them. They have vocals to die for (probably the best I've heard in my family room). Top end is airy and sweet and has this "ease" to it. Bass is defined and proportionate. They produce a HUGE soundstage. Setup took me only a few minutes (playing them straight on as they are designed to do - really helps). They look gorgeous. They are the quintessential plug-n-play speaker.

I would characterize their sound as slightly warm, full-bodied, smooth and very musical.

In the background on the wall, you see all types of posters from Dynaudio proclaiming everything they are knowledgeable about. They need a new poster that says they are learning Chinese.

Originally Posted by mep

In the background on the wall, you see all types of posters from Dynaudio proclaiming everything they are knowledgeable about. They need a new poster that says they are learning Chinese.

Quite a collection of gear. Rowland, Viola, cj, Chord, etc. Guess they know their speakers but are still learning about equipment!

Originally Posted by JDLaudio

No speaker company in the world can put forth a design that reproduces perfectly level frequency response throughout its entire range. SAM is attempting to equalize the speakers for any deficiencies they have using their brand of electronics. Of course, the room will still contribute its voice to the equation. The SAM technology tries to cure one part of the problem that it has control over......its amp voicing in combination with a particular speaker. They naturally do not have any idea how a customer's room will contribute to the overall sound. But I give them cudos for their attempt to get some part of the synergy under control. But ultimately, the consumers will decide if their thoughts on voicing are going in the right direction.
But SAM will not fix a horrible room. So SAM is not a cure-all.

Well said. The fact is that even among audiophiles, the number of people that implement room correction is tiny. SAM may not be perfect, but it's better than nothing which is how most audiophiles run.

Originally Posted by FlexibleAudio

Of course they don't run flat response curves but my first point is that this may be due to a speakers failure but is very often intentionally designed into the speaker. This is partly why many hate the sound of Magicos. Alon probably does the flat curve thing better than anyone. Many buy a speaker (knowingly or not) due to its unique character. As I understand it Neil at Avalon not only tailors his curves, he does it differently for each speaker depending what his vision for the sound of that particular unit. Lots of designers do this to differentiate their product. It sells.

That's a great way to build consistency of sound into your products. Having heard Avalon speakers at a show, I'm convinced there is some jigger-pookey going on with the crossover and I mentioned this before in another thread. The soundstage started 3 zip codes north of the speakers. Obviously some people like that effect, but it's an effect that quickly wore on me because it's not natural.

Originally Posted by FlexibleAudio

It just seems to me Sam will neuter the speakers of the designers intent (at least in as far as listening to them in an anechoic chamber goes).

Man, it pains me to say this, but I think Paul is right and I agree with him. If SAM could "fix" every high-end speaker, don't you think all high-end speaker designers would incorporate it into their speaker system? You have to sell your soul to the digital devil to use SAM and audiophiles whose main sources are analog first and digital second (if at all) are not going to sell their analog souls for the promise of digital heaven.

I also know that Dan is correct when he says:

The average audiophile does not have the skill or equipment to take good measurements.

However, you don't see too many analog audiophiles using DRC/DSP-it's against our religion.