Thread: D'Agostino Helius Monoblock Amplifiers

Originally Posted by mep

You need to join WBF. You will find a bunch of kindred souls there.

I'm not sure I understand your response unless you were just being sarcastic(which I don't need).

BTW, I do belong to WBF

I just wish the manufactures would protect the dealers that bring in this ultra high end gear for demo in their stores. If you bring in a flagship product like this then only displaying dealers should be allowed to sell that model. I would like that level of sale to go direct to the manufacture with a maximum preset discount allowed. Then the manufacture issues a check to the dealer. This would cut down consumers using dealers resources and then purchasing from another dealer that doesn't even have a showroom. Obviously at a highly discounted price because that dealer has no investment in demo gear. But that's a different topic

Originally Posted by Mike

Keith - there will always be more expensive products coming out. I still go back to the benefits of trickle down technology.

As for $65,000 speaker cables....sorry, I got nothing.

Which is why its humorous that JA thinks the Pass X60.5s are the best amps he's ever heard- 11k. Ayre did the whole solid aluminum brick thing before anyone and originally charged $18k/pair. Dan adds copper and a Breguet copy cat dial and charges 55k.

JA said "in his room" - and when you consider all the factors (cost, weight, heat, etc.), they are excellent amps. JA told me he's reviewing the 60.8's right now. Will be interesting to hear how he likes them.

I think a lot of times the ultra high end is used as a sales tool. Demo the 250k and then the 60k and instantly write up the 60k pair because of that trickle down technology

Originally Posted by KeithR

Which is why its humorous that JA thinks the Pass X60.5s are the best amps he's ever heard- 11k. Ayre did the whole solid aluminum brick thing before anyone and originally charged $18k/pair. Dan adds copper and a Breguet copy cat dial and charges 55k.

And now Ayre charges $28.5 them. Since by your definition whats inside means nothing then Ayre just added ~$10k of profit for no reason.

I think someone is suffering from "Amp Envy".

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Originally Posted by still-one

And now Ayre charges $28.5 them. Since by your definition whats inside means nothing then Ayre just added ~$10k of profit for no reason.

Actually Charlie had a long post about why it costs them so much now- just the parts increase was like 4-5k to the Series 2 version. Said he tried a zillion other brands and didn't sound right. He was not happy about raising price. He also offers an upgrade to all prior customers for just the difference in price.

Alternatively, I'd like to hear why Dan raised prices for his monoblocks so much in the past two years.

Originally Posted by KeithR

Actually Charlie had a long post about why it costs them so much now- just the parts increase was like 4-5k to the Series 2 version. Said he tried a zillion other brands and didn't sound right. He was not happy about raising price. He also offers an upgrade to all prior customers for just the difference in price.

Alternatively, I'd like to hear why Dan raised prices for his monoblocks so much in the past two years.

Actually if you sit down and talk to Dan he will readily explain why those increases occurred. Like Charlie he is very open.

My guess would be around 25k for the COB. A lot of people have to get a piece of the pie.

Since $250k is more than any of us here has admitted we are willing to pay for any amplifier we could use our savings to purchase this Reinast Luxury Toothbrush for $4k. I wonder what's inside?

Originally Posted by still-one

Since $250k is more than any of us here has admitted we are willing to pay for any amplifier we could use our savings to purchase this Reinast Luxury Toothbrush for $4k. I wonder what's inside?

You know Jim there's more people than not who would say that your gear is ridiculously priced and a rip off. Especially those Opus cables.

Originally Posted by mep

It should come with a new set of teeth.

lol!!!!

this is a funny subject, i was recently listening to a $75k pair of speakers which to me is 2 times the money i would need to put together a good enough sounding system for me to live with forever, but when i was listening to them playing with $200k monoblocks (kaguras), the speakers didnt seem like as much money anymore. lol.
the price is going up and up in this industry. i remember when dynaudio came out with the evidence, all the reviews started out "if your internet company just went public and you are looking for speakers" . now $85k speakers are almost mainstream.
but i still love to go hear all this stuff, i neither would nor could buy. its all in good fun, and is always entertaining. and the look on your non audiophile friends face when you told him he was just listening to a $200k pair of amps is priceless.lol.

Originally Posted by Myles B. Astor

You know Jim there's more people than not who would say that your gear is ridiculously priced and a rip off. Especially those Opus cables.

Myles, I do not disagree with those sentiments. I think that the MSRP is unjustifiable. My mistake was trying them in my system. I didn't want to buy them but they were not coming out. I have had many animated discussions with my dealer over current pricing models.

What bothers me is that new brands think they have earned the right to enter the market at these high prices without a track record or distribution network. The market is getting saturated.

Originally Posted by still-one

Myles, I do not disagree with those sentiments. I think that the MSRP is unjustifiable. My mistake was trying them in my system. I didn't want to buy them but they were not coming out. I have had many animated discussions with my dealer over current pricing models.

Certainly that's a point of contention. OTOH, if you have the money and can buy a yacht--and perhaps more of his amplifiers will be sold in Asia and Russia--what different does it make? That's his and other company's market.

What bothers me is that new brands think they have earned the right to enter the market at these high prices without a track record or distribution network. The market is getting saturated.

Again certainly arguable and perhaps a topic for another thread. But what better way for a company to get attention?

Originally Posted by Garth

I wonder what bothers people the most the price at 250,000
The steady rise in price
The cost of parts to what it sells for
The free market being seen as out of control
The Russian and Asia Market out spending the North American Market
The how good can it be anyway thoughts
Or the fact that it is selling
Or that most of us do not have 250 grand for what is only one part of a system
Just wondering

None of the above. Doesn't bother me at all. Neither does a million dollar bugatti veyron.


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Originally Posted by Garth

I wonder what bothers people the most the price at 250,000
The steady rise in price
The cost of parts to what it sells for
The free market being seen as out of control
The Russian and Asia Market out spending the North American Market
The how good can it be anyway thoughts
Or the fact that it is selling
Or that most of us do not have 250 grand for what is only one part of a system
Just wondering

"The steady rise in price" in the industry overall could see affordability levels fall especially against a rising $USD. Whether or not that would impart on those demand levels partly depends on whether new product offerings enter markets to fill in voids at lower price points, that do offer compelling price/performance ratios. Problem with what I see with new price level benchmarks is that total value proposition is lowered, in other words you get less performance and quality for the dollar spent.

Progressively in a digital world, HiFi technology is embracing more advanced electronics than ever before. So you would think that the principles of Moore's Law would equally apply and that high priced electronics would also be subjected to high depreciation factors. So I suppose unless it is unique, exclusive, collectible with a long useful life engineered into it, it is going to struggle with much of tomorrow's competition and depreciate rapidly as Moore anticipates with quality-adjusted processor pricing.

I think for example McIntosh has faired well historically with their core product lines. A value proposition driven consistently by:

1. Technical and aesthetic formula.

2. Quality Construction and Craftsmanship.

3. Long brand gestation in the market place.

4. Long refresh lifecycles. If it's a winner, why change it.

5. Traditional Resale/bluebook values.

These factors helped me to choose the brand over others. Certainly, there are better performing brands that I salivate over, but it got down to the overall value proposition for me.

Not knocking D'Ag. He is building his own brand reputation. If he can pre-sell 30 sets for $250K each, in advance of even launching physical product to market, then he must be a talented engineer but an even better business man.

Originally Posted by still-one

Actually if you sit down and talk to Dan he will readily explain why those increases occurred. Like Charlie he is very open.

Why don't you share with us if you know. Dan's not on this forum.

Originally Posted by mep

Excellent point Myles. It just goes to show that being outraged at pricing is all relative. It reminds me of a cartoon I once saw in a mag I won't mention.

You know I wish I could afford some of this gear too. Not to mention like some of our Asian audio buddies who have three systems. But I'm not bitter or jealous-two traits that always seem to rear their ugly head in these discussions. Hey if someone works hard and legitimately earns their money, all the more power to them!

Originally Posted by still-one

Since $250k is more than any of us here has admitted we are willing to pay for any amplifier we could use our savings to purchase this Reinast Luxury Toothbrush for $4k. I wonder what's inside?

Thanks for making my point, Jim- we're at that place in audio, just few will come out and say it. There really isn't that much "inside." The circuits aren't changing much. Parts quality has been the larger improvement (caps, etc) in the past 10 years. But the death spiral up in prices continues. When does it end?

And I agree with you that newer competitors are primarily focusing at the uber-high end now.

Originally Posted by mep

In the grand scheme of things, whats it matter? Would you buy the amps if you liked the explanation? If the answer is no, why does Dan or anyone else owe you an explanation on how he prices his products for the market? Explaining yourself to people who never intend on being your customer makes little sense to me. If I'm in the market to buy a new VW Jetta because that is all I can afford or that's all the car I'm willing to pay for, do I really have any business asking Ferrari to explain how they arrived at their retail price for their 2014 Ferrari F12berlinetta?
?

Maybe because when prices go up 40% on a product in a very little amount of time, I would question what's going on? ahh, the horror!

Originally Posted by mep

But you weren't going to be a customer when the price was 40% lower were you?

Why would you assume that? And please don't make assumptions about my ability to purchase expensive items.

Anyways, I'm done with this topic. Carry on- maybe Dan will make a $100k preamp to match.

Originally Posted by mep

If you have to take out a second mortgage on your home or cash in your retirement account and jeopardize your future and end up in a nursing home with a 300lb woman who makes minimum wage beating the snot out of you because you crapped your diapers twice on her shift, you might want to rethink your position in the audio market.

But she told me, "this will hurt me more than it will hurt you."


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Originally Posted by Mike

But she told me, "this will hurt me more than it will hurt you."


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IIRC Fremer wrote he took out a loan to pay for his Wilson speakers.

Originally Posted by mep

JA did talk about that. It might have been his retirement account he dove into.

That's what I recall too.


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Originally Posted by KeithR

Why would you assume that? And please don't make assumptions about my ability to purchase expensive items.

Anyways, I'm done with this topic. Carry on- maybe Dan will make a $100k preamp to match.

Actually he was supposed to come out with two new amps, the one ~$250k and another ~$125k. There are other products in his pipeline that should show up before the uber priced products.

Originally Posted by KeithR

Why don't you share with us if you know. Dan's not on this forum.

He will be at Paragon in Ann Arbor on the 24th if you would like to ask him. You could also question the people from dCS, Transparent Audio and Wilson why they have crazy priced products.

Actually I don't know why any manufacturer would participate in online discussions. They have little to gain and usually get nothing but grief.

Originally Posted by mep

They usually don't end well as the haters come out of the woodwork.

Exactly.

The Wilson's with the D'Agostino amps were wonderful at the 2013 New York audio show. I've got some of Dan's older gear when he was heading Krell. I think he was and remains a great designer.

Wow, I just finished reading through this entire thread and quite frankly, I'm exhausted. A lot of anger at the relentless upward spiral in price. I remember when I got into this hobby back in the 80's, if you saved your money you could really put together a top of the line system. Not too much was out of reach. Those days are long gone for most of us. In my opinion, this has really become a rich man's hobby. And unfortunately for most of us, this is now the audiophile manufacturers' main focus.

Ken

Ken - don't get discouraged, there is a lot of great gear for reasonable prices.


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Originally Posted by Mike

Ken - don't get discouraged, there is a lot of great gear for reasonable prices.


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Thanks Mike!

Originally Posted by Alpinist

Wow, I just finished reading through this entire thread and quite frankly, I'm exhausted. A lot of anger at the relentless upward spiral in price. I remember when I got into this hobby back in the 80's, if you saved your money you could really put together a top of the line system. Not too much was out of reach. Those days are long gone for most of us. In my opinion, this has really become a rich man's hobby. And unfortunately for most of us, this is now the audiophile manufacturers' main focus.

Ken

Well Ken you have a some great gear in your system now. I understand your post full well I started in the mid 1970s buying gear. You are right a average guy could buy the best of the best it was a lot of money then but do able sort of. Many would love to have the system you have.

The million plus systems are few and far between. I wonder if their is more 100,000 dollar gear in inventory than in homes. It is out of my reach which is fine you get what you get in life.

Since I stopped trying to make sense out of life things have gone a lot smoother LOL.

Originally Posted by Garth

Well Ken you have a some great gear in your system now. I understand your post full well I started in the mid 1970s buying gear. You are right a average guy could buy the best of the best it was a lot of money then but do able sort of. Many would love to have the system you have.

The million plus systems are few and far between. I wonder if their is more 100,000 dollar gear in inventory than in homes. It is out of my reach which is fine you get what you get in life.

Since I stopped trying to make sense out of life things have gone a lot smoother LOL.

Thanks Garth. You have a really fine system too. How are you liking the KXR-20/MXR-20 combo? Are they a big improvement over the KXR/MXR combo?

Best,
Ken

Originally Posted by Alpinist

Thanks Garth. You have a really fine system too. How are you liking the KXR-20/MXR-20 combo? Are they a big improvement over the KXR/MXR combo?

Best,
Ken

I did the upgrade about a month ago. Big improvement in sound much cleaner more depth, better at instrument placement . I do not think anyone or at lest a very few would not find it worth doing.
It has a completely different sound than it did. I did the MXR and KXR at the same time which added the most to the sound I do not know. Ayre is a good company for me anyway no problems so far and upgradable . It took less than a month for the upgrades and a lot of that time was the Canada USA border it slows things down . The upgrade is not cheap but worth it IMO.

Originally Posted by Garth

I did the upgrade about a month ago. Big improvement in sound much cleaner more depth, better at instrument placement . I do not think anyone or at lest a very few would not find it worth doing.
It has a completely different sound than it did. I did the MXR and KXR at the same time which added the most to the sound I do not know. Ayre is a good company for me anyway no problems so far and upgradable . It took less than a month for the upgrades and a lot of that time was the Canada USA border it slows things down . The upgrade is not cheap but worth it IMO.

Garth,

That is a terrific feature offered by Ayre that allows you to upgrade these components. Even though expensive, it is probably far cheaper than selling or trading in your KXR/MXR and purchasing a new KXR20/MXR20. The chassis construction on both components is one of the finest I've ever seen.

Ken

What’s next?

The next thing I’m going to build is a new product line called the Progression, set to be priced somewhere between $10,000-$20,000. The first product in the line will be a big mono power amplifier, similar to a Momentum but costing somewhere around $16,000-$18,000. And it will be very powerful. I’m hoping that will appear before the end of the year – I’ve told the factory ‘August’, which means I’ll probably finish it in late November!

Once the Progression line is done, I’ll turn my attention back to the Helius amplifier I’m building. Helius is truly a monster amplifier. It’s made of three chassis – it’s got a ‘plus’ amplifier and a ‘minus’ amplifier because it’s a purely balanced design. People say they’ve made a balanced design, but I don’t think anyone’s made a truly balanced design like this. It’s got two completely mirror imaged amplifiers that are virtually identical, only one is inverted from the other.

And then, I took the insides of the amplifier – all the bit stuff, the transformers and electrolytics and power devices and heat sinks – and put them all in one case. But no input board: the input board is inside the base, fully isolated chamber with its own power supplies, and sits below the amplifier on some suspension equipment made by Mike Lapis of HRS fame. So there’s no vibration, then it’s totally sealed with µ-metal and copper shielding around it so no influence from the amplifier.

The amplifier is built out of a solid block material, and the toroid is 10” in diameter and it’s seven inches tall. So the toroid itself probably weighs about 130lb, and that is actually milled into a block, the outside block of the amplifier; the toroid fits into a hole and is then covered.

The electrolytics capacitors, of which there are a total of 12 in the two sides, comes out to 1.2F. Each transformer is 6kW, 12kW in total. It’s got a giant copper heatsink; 10” tall, 28” long, and 1.5” thick. That’s bolted to a piece of specially designed aluminium designed for heat reduction in aircraft known as 5051, and each fin of that heatsink is milled out whilethen the base is bolted to the outside of the copper. And that’s three inches deep and of course 10” tall and 28” long – it’s a single piece. And that’s the heatsink for the output stage.

The capacitors, and power supplies are all in this great big block. If you imagine the block is 11” deep, 10” tall, 28” long – that’s where the block starts – and then it’s hollowed out to fit the transformer and the six electrolytics. Then in the back – where it’s ‘empty’ – is where the protection circuits and the hook ups and all that go, then that part is slid onto that heatsink, there’s bolts that go through the inside web of the heatsink to hold that block on, so it’s one rectangle.

If you add up all the parts, the amplifier is going to weigh 780-800lbs. Per channel. Each plus amplifier and minus amplifier has its own cord; it’s designed to run on 220V or 240V… it doesn’t run on 110V. And you need two of them for each channel.

It’s got an extraordinarily gorgeous meter on the front. It’s about 10-12” in width, and six inches high that sits on the front. It’s really strange – it’s almost Bauhaus in design, but looks like a Momentum from another dimension. This is not that big for the kind of power it will produce, though, because it will produce up to 20,000W into one ohm!

Once I get the Progression amplifiers done, this is next in line. I would love to have it ready for CES, but maybe I’ll just show the case. I have the metalwork ready. But it will definitely happen by March next year. Or maybe CES 2017!

From Meet Your Maker - Dan D'Agostino interview | Hi-Fi+

Wow

Thanks

The whole interview is great.