Thread: MSB Select DAC

Wondering whether any of you guys know which msb was used in the Absolare room in Munich? Perhaps a diamond dac V? Either way, I felt it got despatched by the Kodo Beat TT by a long, long way. Presumably the select is much better than the diamond?

Originally Posted by Mike

Wait a minute...isn't this an MSB thread? Damn...all threads seem to turn to Lampi talk.

That's Norman.

That vinyl was sounding damn sweet on that video - bit of Rachmaninov always goes down well with me.

I can't ID msb gear by sight as I am not close enough to it - perhaps the msb guys will know?

Originally Posted by Mike

Thanks Peter. Your videos are a great asset for our feeble minds.

Thanks for the video Peter. Those are the old style MSB fins so it is likely a DAC IV but that style is still available as an option on the DAC V so it is hard to tell from the video.

Originally Posted by still-one

I was going to ask the Moderator(as) to rename this thread from MSB Select DAC, but it gone in so many directions I don't know what you would change it to.

As long as Norman is around, all DAC threads will turn to Lampi talk.

Originally Posted by still-one

I came in a bit late and Vince had probably already covered that point. I believe it was the 33 version of the clock but not the final version. During another session I was in another room talking with Larry who indicated this was still a pre-production unit. Production units will sound better as he had just given instructions to upgrade the transformers on the first run of 50 units.

This raises a question for me. How many $90,000 Dacs are sold. 50 is $2.75 million in sales (assuming retail price less 25% discount (pulling that number from my head) and 25% dealer commission type fees (same head idea)). A lot of revenue on 50 DACs, but is 50 a realistic sales number? Boutique audio products are a hard sell, and to find 50 people to spend more than the average price of a house in many cities in the US seems pretty hard. That said, I would love to hear it.

sfox,

During Larry's introductory "tour" of the SELECT in Europe and Asia, they sold 47 units.

That's why they're doing a 50 unit initial production run.

Keep an eye out, as MSB is going to do more dealer events, introducing the SELECT to different markets in the US.

alex

That is mind blowing. 47 is stunning at that price.

Very impressive (whether 25 units or 47 units). It is an area I don't play in. I have a modest setup and love how it sounds. I cannot fathom such a DAC. One day I may hear it, but I know I will never get one, even if it is the greatest piece of equipment I have ever heard. I guess I could win the lottery. If I bought a ticket.

Deleted.

That is shocking. Who would have dreamt there are 47 people in the world who did not buy the DHT DAC "who's name we shall not mention".

Originally Posted by FlexibleAudio

That is shocking. Who would have dreamt there are 47 people in the world who did not buy the DHT DAC "who's name we shall not mention".

I had asked you this in April, in case you think I am reacting post your negative comment on Lampi

http://audioshark.org/lampizator-186...tml#post123239

Your reply

http://audioshark.org/lampizator-186...tml#post123242

Originally Posted by bonzo

I had asked you this in April, in case you think I am reacting post your negative comment on Lampi

http://audioshark.org/lampizator-186...tml#post123239

Your reply

http://audioshark.org/lampizator-186...tml#post123242

Bonzo, I answered your question regarding my show experience in post #68 above. I will repeat it here to help you.

I spent a good part of the day at Axpona listening to both the B-7 and the GG. As many on this forum know I was keenly interested in the Lampi and this was my primary reason for attending the show. It was not under ideal conditions. I would never use this venue to pick the Lampi over the Allinic or vice versa, but the conditions were more than adequate for me to recognize the wonderful and familiar sound of DHT euphonics. I adore them. I also know and understand their limitations.

As I said, I would not use a show to a/b two dacs that are very similar and make a choice between the two. This was a much simpler exercise and was not ambiguous.

To explain further. At Axpona the GG was set up in one room and the B7 was set up in another. Completely different rooms; completely different set ups; and completely different formats were played. In each case I heard clearly the familiar sound of DHT goodness. PCM, DSD, Room1, Room2, System1, System2 it did not matter. In each case I heard the mid range linearity with frequency limitations, coloration (method of distorting through even order harmonics), and higher noise floor I associate with this architecture. I listened at very high volumes and very low volumes in assessing these results in both locations. I love this type of sound and the dac "who's name we shall not mention" is quite good at its reproduction, but I do not want it all the time. While it is quiet for a DHT, it is not, IMO, as linear beyond the mid range, as low in overall distortion, or as quiet as the MSB. These are things I value in my baseline dac. Why does this bother you so much? Mike said essentially the same thing about the dac "who's name we shall not mention" in post #69 above". I will repeat it here to help you.

Interesting. Like I said in my review, it's like adding a top notch SET amp to your system. For some, that's nirvana, for others it's "too colored". I notice this right away when I switch back to my Lumin or T+A. It doesn't make it right or wrong, just a different delivery.

I have no idea what motivates you guys that worship the dac "whose name we shall not mention" and I don't care, but your vigorous refusal to allow anyone to have an opposing view or belief can really be a buzz kill. Especially when people are called flawed and wrong. Try to accept the fact that people have different values systems. It's not a contest. After I spent several months evaluating the merits of the dac "whose name we shall not mention" and spent most of a day listening to its sonic signature that immediately jumped out to me in the first 30 seconds (just like it does to Mike), I decided to spend a lot more money on something different because I value that something. But all you guys do is try to point out to the masses what an idiot I am. I understand your motivation is not financial (even though I have seen some coincidental behavior), but it sure is odd.

Originally Posted by FlexibleAudio

Bonzo, I answered your question regarding my show experience in post #68 above. I will repeat it here to help you.



As I said, I would not use a show to a/b two dacs that are very similar and make a choice between the two. This was a much simpler exercise and was not ambiguous.

To explain further. At Axpona the GG was set up in one room and the B7 was set up in another. Completely different rooms; completely different set ups; and completely different formats were played. In each case I heard clearly the familiar sound of DHT goodness. PCM, DSD, Room1, Room2, System1, System2 it did not matter. In each case I heard the mid range linearity with frequency limitations, coloration (method of distorting through even order harmonics), and higher noise floor I associate with this architecture. I listened at very high volumes and very low volumes in assessing these results in both locations. I love this type of sound and the dac "who's name we shall not mention" is quite good at its reproduction, but I do not want it all the time. While it is quiet for a DHT, it is not, IMO, as linear beyond the mid range, as low in overall distortion, or as quiet as the MSB. These are things I value in my baseline dac. Why does this bother you so much? Mike said essentially the same thing about the dac "who's name we shall not mention" in post #69 above". I will repeat it here to help you.



I have no idea what motivates you guys that worship the dac "whose name we shall not mention" and I don't care, but your vigorous refusal to allow anyone to have an opposing view or belief can really be a buzz kill. Especially when people are called flawed and wrong. Try to accept the fact that people have different values systems. It's not a contest. After I spent several months evaluating the merits of the dac "whose name we shall not mention" and spent most of a day listening to its sonic signature that immediately jumped out to me in the first 30 seconds (just like it does to Mike), I decided to spend a lot more money on something different because I value that something. But all you guys do is try to point out to the masses what an idiot I am. I understand your motivation is not financial (even though I have seen some coincidental behavior), but it sure is odd.

That description of yours from a show, while explained well, is very basic, and I would never do it for an electronic item at any show, especially one where changing the valves changes the sound. I have demoed a lot of items at Munich and other shows, and never posted unless I heard them in proper environments. Just basic responsible audiophilia. I am quite happy for you to value another dac, and post good things about it, but be honest with yourself in your auditions, not go to shows and think oh wow I have this figured out now.

I will point out the silliness in evaluating a planar speaker placed close to the front wall I will point out the silliness in this show evaluation.

I posted those links to let you know that I brought this up BEFORE you posted your negative review. I guess this was lost on you.

As for motivation, this is an audio forum. All we do is live and die by audio here, if you go to a bodybuilding forum, people will defend their protein powder. That said, again this defense is not about any particular dac, but about the silliness in a hifi show evaluation.

Originally Posted by bonzo

That description of yours from a show, while explained well, is very basic, and I would never do it for an electronic item at any show, especially one where changing the valves changes the sound. I have demoed a lot of items at Munich and other shows, and never posted unless I heard them in proper environments. Just basic responsible audiophilia. I am quite happy for you to value another dac, and post good things about it, but be honest with yourself in your auditions, not go to shows and think oh wow I have this figured out now.

Ps: I will ignore your ad hominems, I have not indulged in any, but just like I will point out the silliness in evaluating a planar speaker placed close to the front wall I will point out the silliness in this show evaluation.

I posted those links to let you know that I brought this up BEFORE you posted your negative review. I guess this was lost on you

Well Bonzo, I want you to know that I am sorry if I have no met your expectations as a responsible audiophile. I will try to do better in the future. In the mean time I think you should look up the word ad hominem. You have called my thinking flawed, wrong, silly, and irresponsible. Those are ad hominems. I, in turn, have questioned the rationality of your motivation which by definition is an assault on your character, but it is also a reaction to your assault on mine.

Regarding the second bold, it can not be clearer that my point related to show observations was in fact lost on you. For the third time, I would not make subtle measurements at a show. What I was measuring was so obvious you could do it at a show practically in an instant. (As Mike has done in his system.)

Again I did not assault your character, I would post the same to someone who made a judgement listening to a planar stuck to the front wall

Originally Posted by bonzo

Again I did not assault your character, I would post the same to someone who made a judgement listening to a planar stuck to the front wall

I find it difficult to believe you honestly don't understand what you just said but maybe you don't. => "I did not assault your character I would [call any one stupid that does something I consider to be stupid]." Ok, well I am glad we cleared that up. I will do my best to be a good boy and buy dacs the way you want me to in the future.

Before we move on, can I ask you a couple simple questions? Is it possible that anyone on the planet earth could buy any dac made on the planet earth besides the "one who's name we shall not mention" and gain your approval? Should all dac manufacturers just close up shop because this issue is completely settled? Maybe vinyl should too? I am completely serious. Help me understand your view on this.

I have a silly digital audio joke to liven things up since we have been getting so serious.

Question: What's the difference between the DHT dac "whose name we shall not mention" and the Allnic D5000DHT dac?

Answer: Three guys on the internet.


Get it???.....pretty funny huh?

Originally Posted by FlexibleAudio

Before we move on, can I ask you a couple simple questions? Is it possible that anyone on the planet earth could buy any dac made on the planet earth besides the "one who's name we shall not mention" and gain your approval? Should all dac manufacturers just close up shop because this issue is completely settled? Maybe vinyl should too? I am completely serious. Help me understand your view on this.

Of course. There are so many people who have bought other dacs that I have not said anything on the forum too. Why I find your case disturbing is I knew you were excited about the Lampi, yet you used a hifi show to make a judgement, a judgement that most Lampi users who have heard it in proper conditions will tell you is incorrect. Had you just got out and bought msb, never having considered Lampi, or demoed the Lampi at home, tried a couple of valves, and then bought msb, would have been fine.

As for TT, I will sell my Lampi the day I land a cheap deal on a couple of thousand of used quality classical vinyl, and invest in a TT.

For the record, both audiophile Bill here and I didn't like the Lampi room in Munich. He didn't own one then and was disappointed, but then heard mine at home and now has bought the B7 which he has upgraded in a couple of weeks to GG.

I also tell him off because he keeps using hifi shows.to judge Martin Logans, which never sound good at a show

Originally Posted by bonzo

Of course. There are so many people who have bought other dacs that I have not said anything on the forum too. Why I find your case disturbing is I knew you were excited about the Lampi, yet you used a hifi show to make a judgement, a judgement that most Lampi users who have heard it in proper conditions will tell you is incorrect. Had you just got out and bought msb, never having considered Lampi, or demoed the Lampi at home, tried a couple of valves, and then bought msb, would have been fine.

As for TT, I will sell my Lampi the day I land a cheap deal on a couple of thousand of used quality classical vinyl, and invest in a TT.

For the record, both audiophile Bill here and I didn't like the Lampi room in Munich. He didn't own one then and was disappointed, but then heard mine at home and now has bought the B7 which he has upgraded in a couple of weeks to GG.

I also tell him off because he keeps using hifi shows.to judge Martin Logans, which never sound good at a show

I am audiophile bill and can attest to not liking the Lampi / Avantgarde room in Munich - sounded most uninspiring to me. And yes I am guilty of writing off Logans by the umpteen poo auditions I have heard at shows.

Anyway. Paul - I think you have made an incorrect assessment on the rose tinted, rolled off, and coloured Lampi signature. The output tubes substantially impact the signature to go from fast, dynamic and exceptionally detailed (101d) to romantic and full bodied with 300b as an example. Also the recti can substantially impact the sound. There are some traits you always get like vast 3d soundstage and always engaging. When I borrowed Bonzos big 7, I used one combination of recti, cabling and 101d that I really did not like as it sounded very solid state in the sense I did not like. Fwiw - I have no idea why anyone would buy an MSB after the few auditions I have heard (not of select though) under *show conditions* but I still would not write MSB off without hearing head to head at home.

IMG-20150627-WA0003.jpg

Btw here is a Total dac demo I recently had at a guy's place, and had taken my Lampi over as well. I have not posted anything about the Total dac on any forum because given that room and speakers I don't think it's fair to do so. He is expanding the room and getting better speakers, and I will then visit him again.

Originally Posted by still-one

Well since you have decided to trash this thread I decided to go outside and stick a tube in a pile of my dogs crap to see if it helped. Nah. It still smells like crap.

I'll wait for a thread that people add value to. Bye

Apologies. I will go off this.

Originally Posted by bonzo

Of course. There are so many people who have bought other dacs that I have not said anything on the forum too. Why I find your case disturbing is I knew you were excited about the Lampi, yet you used a hifi show to make a judgement, a judgement that most Lampi users who have heard it in proper conditions will tell you is incorrect. Had you just got out and bought msb, never having considered Lampi, or demoed the Lampi at home, tried a couple of valves, and then bought msb, would have been fine.

As for TT, I will sell my Lampi the day I land a cheap deal on a couple of thousand of used quality classical vinyl, and invest in a TT.

For the record, both audiophile Bill here and I didn't like the Lampi room in Munich. He didn't own one then and was disappointed, but then heard mine at home and now has bought the B7 which he has upgraded in a couple of weeks to GG.

I also tell him off because he keeps using hifi shows.to judge Martin Logans, which never sound good at a show

Bonzo, The above bolded statement is kinda ridiculous. Someday after listening to your "dac who's name we shall not say" for a lengthy time you, I am sure, you will have an occasion to listen to a quieter, more full range, lower distortion dac and you will hear a difference. I prefer that difference in my baseline digital. That's me. What Bill thought about Munich has no relevance on the matter. Don't tell me you think the "dac who's name we shall not say" has a lower noise floor and lower distortion than the MSB? People may not like the MSB but this point is not in dispute. The only thing that is in dispute is my taste in sound which is not up for negotiation.

Back to my question, I take it from the first paragraph the only people who have not bought the dac "who's name we shall not say" that you approve of are those that did not look into the dac "who's name we shall not say" first and, as such, remained ignorant. Goodness, you need to get after those poor dudes and stop wasting so much time on me.

Wow what a conscious misinterpretation!

Originally Posted by still-one

Well since you have decided to trash this thread I decided to go outside and stick a tube in a pile of my dogs crap to see if it helped. Nah. It still smells like crap.

I'll wait for a thread that people add value to. Bye

Jim, You can run but you can't hide. It doesn't matter what forum, hell it doesn't even need to be digital, the thread is going down because of the dac "who's name we shall not say." It is much bigger than us mere mortals. Lock your doors at night and look under your bed before you turn the lights out. They are every where.

Originally Posted by FlexibleAudio

Bonzo, The above bolded statement is kinda ridiculous. Someday after listening to your "dac who's name we shall not say" for a lengthy time you, I am sure, you will have an occasion to listen to a quieter, more full range, lower distortion dac and you will hear a difference. I prefer that difference in my baseline digital. That's me. What Bill thought about Munich has no relevance on the matter. Don't tell me you think the "dac who's name we shall not say" has a lower noise floor and lower distortion than the MSB? People may not like the MSB but this point is not in dispute. The only thing that is in dispute is my taste in sound which is not up for negotiation.

Back to my question, I take it from the first paragraph the only people who have not bought the dac "who's name we shall not say" that you approve of are those that did not look into the dac "who's name we shall not say" first and, as such, remained ignorant. Goodness, you need to get after those poor dudes and stop wasting so much time on me.

Paul - I don't think that anyone would dispute lower noise floor and distortion. You can obtain imperceptible levels of both those parameters for $1k in the form of an oppo - does not mean one would prefer the sound. Anyway - going down the measurebator route is rather pointless given that many audiophiles prefer vinyl with comparatively horrendous measurements and amps like the ongaku with 5% distortion.

You could spend £3k and get an oppo with 37 femtosecond clock and other goodies OPPO BDP-105D Audiocom Signature

Originally Posted by Steve

Very interesting specs.

I know especially if you have an oppo 105d ready to go and then it is £2400 for the upgrade. Might get mine done sometime for so little money - might make a great disc transport and dac.

Anyway - back to MSB. I think they use oppo transports?

Originally Posted by bonzo

Of course. There are so many people who have bought other dacs that I have not said anything on the forum too. Why I find your case disturbing is I knew you were excited about the Lampi, yet you used a hifi show to make a judgement, a judgement that most Lampi users who have heard it in proper conditions will tell you is incorrect. Had you just got out and bought msb, never having considered Lampi, or demoed the Lampi at home, tried a couple of valves, and then bought msb, would have been fine.

As for TT, I will sell my Lampi the day I land a cheap deal on a couple of thousand of used quality classical vinyl, and invest in a TT.

For the record, both audiophile Bill here and I didn't like the Lampi room in Munich. He didn't own one then and was disappointed, but then heard mine at home and now has bought the B7 which he has upgraded in a couple of weeks to GG.

I also tell him off because he keeps using hifi shows.to judge Martin Logans, which never sound good at a show

Originally Posted by FlexibleAudio

This is probably a silly discussion but I will play. To me the Lampi is like a Boxter, I suspect it's measurables may not be earth shattering but it sure is fun to drive......just not everyday.

Originally Posted by Audiophile bill

Paul - I don't think that anyone would dispute lower noise floor and distortion. You can obtain imperceptible levels of both those parameters for $1k in the form of an oppo - does not mean one would prefer the sound. Anyway - going down the measurebator route is rather pointless given that many audiophiles prefer vinyl with comparatively horrendous measurements and amps like the ongaku with 5% distortion.

Bill, I could not agree more. Measurements besides maybe noise floor tell very, very little about the human listening apparatus. I have said a gazillion times now, I love the second harmonic distortion of DHT's but not some of their other attributes all the time (see my tag below about dos harmonics). When I made the statement above about the Boxter and less than perfect measurements, a follower of the dac "who's name we shall not say" (WNWSNS) said I was wrong and that started this love fest. In my recent post (which you refer to) I was simply again responding to Bonzo's post were he was telling me most WNWSNS followers would still consider my judgment incorrect. I was merely asking the question to clarify if he was referring to measurements since my subjective judgments can't be wrong (they are mine).

Originally Posted by FlexibleAudio

Bill, I could not agree more. Measurements besides maybe noise floor tell very, very little about the human listening apparatus. I have said a gazillion times now, I love the second harmonic distortion of DHT's but not some of their other attributes all the time (see my tag below about dos harmonics). When I made the statement above about the Boxter and less than perfect measurements, a follower of the dac "who's name we shall not say" (WNWSNS) said I was wrong and that started this love fest. In my recent post (which you refer to) I was simply again responding to Bonzo's post were he was telling me most WNWSNS followers would still consider my judgment incorrect. I was merely asking the question to clarify if he was referring to measurements since my subjective judgments can't be wrong (they are mine).

Sorry if I missed it in the thread - did you buy an MSB and if so, which one did you go for?

Originally Posted by FlexibleAudio

Bill, I could not agree more. Measurements besides maybe noise floor tell very, very little about the human listening apparatus. I have said a gazillion times now, I love the second harmonic distortion of DHT's but not some of their other attributes all the time (see my tag below about dos harmonics). When I made the statement above about the Boxter and less than perfect measurements, a follower of the dac "who's name we shall not say" (WNWSNS) said I was wrong and that started this love fest. In my recent post (which you refer to) I was simply again responding to Bonzo's post were he was telling me most WNWSNS followers would still consider my judgment incorrect. I was merely asking the question to clarify if he was referring to measurements since my subjective judgments can't be wrong (they are mine).

No, I said your subjective judgements will most certainly be incorrect/incomplete because they were made at a hifi show. That last point of the statement is what the love fest was about. And they would be different if made at a proper audition.