Thread: MSB Select DAC

Originally Posted by Mike

How's that system of yours coming along? Any more updates? Is music playing yet?

Continuing to make progress.....slowly but surely. Music won't be for a while. Getting room designed by Nyal at Acoustic Frontiers. Picking a contractor. Ordered new Ascona. Bought a lightly used MSB Diamond Dac IV Plus with Galaxy and nice upgrade path. Thanks for asking.

Ah, you got an MSB! Congratulations

Have you hooked it up already?


cheers,
alex

Originally Posted by asiufy

Ah, you got an MSB! Congratulations

Have you hooked it up already?


cheers,
alex

No Alex, I pulled the trigger this weekend. I have been building out my system for a long, long time. It is in boxes until my room is done; hopefully this fall. Thanks for all of your help.

Originally Posted by Mike

Nyal is a great guy. That's a terrific move. He really knows his stuff. I think you'll really enjoy the MSB IV too.

Regarding the MSB, I wanted something neutral and quiet to form a baseline that does a good job with both formats. After I get settled in I will play around with some things more colorful (i.e., flexible audio). Do you remember two years ago on AA when I started my quest (below)? Yours was the last post on my thread at the time.

http://www.audioaficionado.org/general-audio-discussion/19937-help-new-system-flexible-audio.html

The fundamentals of that thread are still my plan. Patience grasshopper.

Originally Posted by Mike

That's smart! The MSB is the Porsche of DAC's. The Lampizator is the Ferrari (no jokes please )

i'll agree on MSB=Porsche.

i'd call the Lampizator the 'Lotus' of dacs.

Lampizator is high performance, cutting edge, and minimalist with a touch of DIY.......certainly more DIY in it's past than in it's present and future.

it may or may not have 'Ferrari' performance.....I cannot say at this point. but it comes up short in the cache' department.

which does not mean i'm not interested because I am.

This is probably a silly discussion but I will play. To me the Lampi is like a Boxter, I suspect it's measurables may not be earth shattering but it sure is fun to drive......just not everyday.

Originally Posted by wisnon

You suspect wrong…and I have 2 Trinity Dac owning pals to back me up who play theirs most everyday.

I also have another NYC Pal who has a upgraded Platinum MSB Dac and TWO Big7 Lampis (one is a HeadDac) and will sell one and get a Golden Gate HeadDac. I myself spent a day at his place last year comparing 4 of his Dacs…Lampi B7, the said MSB that retailed at $35K , the Hugo and the PSA Direct Stream.
The Lampi and the MSB were close. Since then he sent back that B7 for a complete overhaul and bought the first B7 HeadDac.

Relax Norman. Your Lampi is peachy. It sounds to me like a well designed DHT; nothing more nothing less. Sometimes I want more than what a DHT does with regard to SNR, frequency range, etc. Sometimes I don't want to go chasing for a new plate impedance every time I want to go outside the mid range. The fact that many (including Trinity and MSB users) are impressed with the linearity of a DHT in a given tube's frequency range and it's natural second harmonic distortion is no surprise to me (especially if some of those folks are not familiar with a well engineered DHT's sound to start). It is truly romantic. It is also the origin of my silly tag line about "preferring dos harmonics when I drink nonlinear." I love them.

My only point, and I think the feeling of many after a while with DHT's, is they fall a bit out of love when they realize what's missing. I have every intention of adding DHT's to my dac mix (as my link in post #56 above stated 2 years ago) because they are so pleasant, but I will always want more. Lastly, I respect your friends views--that's all fine, but they have no impact on my point one way or the other. This is a subjective thing.

Originally Posted by FlexibleAudio

Relax Norman. Your Lampi is peachy. It sounds to me like a well designed DHT; nothing more nothing less. Sometimes I want more than what a DHT does with regard to SNR, frequency range, etc. Sometimes I don't want to go chasing for a new plate impedance every time I want to go outside the mid range. The fact that many (including Trinity and MSB users) are impressed with the linearity of a DHT in a given tube's frequency range and it's natural second harmonic distortion is no surprise to me (especially if some of those folks are not familiar with a well engineered DHT's sound to start). It is truly romantic. It is also the origin of my silly tag line about "preferring dos harmonics when I drink nonlinear." I love them.

My only point, and I think the feeling of many after a while with DHT's, is they fall a bit out of love when they realize what's missing. I have every intention of adding DHT's to my dac mix (as my link in post #56 above stated 2 years ago) because they are so pleasant, but I will always want more. Lastly, I respect your friends views--that's all fine, but they have no impact on my point one way or the other. This is a subjective thing.

Is this based on your listening at the hifi show, or a proper audition - because I found the B7 beats Trinity and Esoteric K01 on SS characteristics - bass, speed, slam, and detail, and I listen mostly to orchestral, not vocal midrange like Diana Krall (though I do listen to opera). Your description of why Lampi guys like Lampi is totally incorrect, and is based mainly on 300b type valves, not 101d, for example. In fact you are generalizing valves like Jadis rather than being specific about Lampi

It's fair for him to have his opinion provided it's based on a proper audition. Problem is I think it's based on his hifi show experience, so flexible audio, please confirm

Originally Posted by wisnon

I am completely relaxed, but these pals are VERY experienced audiophile. One runs arguably the 3rd biggest show in the world and the other has 2 of the finest reference sytems I have heard and I have had private demos at the HQs of some of the biggest names in high end audio.

My pals know from DHT…believe me.

I also enjoy what I have an am not threatened in any way, so dont sweat it.

You are free to want what you want, but you are passing blind judement here. I am just clearing up an apparent misconception you seem to have.

Norman what do you mean I am passing blind judgment? How could you possibly make that statement. I just said I have seen people not familiar with DHT's go gaga for a while until they eventually go back to a more full range presentation and want more. Me included. I was not talking about your friends. You have told me before Adam runs a big show; he raves about the product and I have no doubt he loves his Lampi (as he should) and I am sure your other friends do as well.

I am relating to my experiences and you are relating yours. I am not passing blind judgment. I gottta say though, I continue to be amazed by your Lampi zealotry whether it be on this or any of the many other forums where you incessantly challenge anyone who questions Lampi's absolute sonic superiority. It's great to be happy with a product but your inability to comprehend that Lampi's are not the be all and end all of the audio world seems unnatural. At this level it is largely subjective. When you do things such as argue against a widely understood concept like the impact of plate impedance variation on frequency range as if it doesn't exist just because it's a Lampi.....C'mon man!!! Why do people roll tubes??? Because this variation and the level of second harmonic distortion create SQ deltas that people like based on the impedance matching of there particular system and/or tastes. Some people like you and your friends like this and some people like me and my friends do too; just not all the time. It's not blind judgment, its how we feel.

Originally Posted by bonzo

Is this based on your listening at the hifi show, or a proper audition - because I found the B7 beats Trinity and Esoteric K01 on SS characteristics - bass, speed, slam, and detail, and I listen mostly to orchestral, not vocal midrange like Diana Krall (though I do listen to opera). Your description of why Lampi guys like Lampi is totally incorrect, and is based mainly on 300b type valves, not 101d, for example. In fact you are generalizing valves like Jadis rather than being specific about Lampi

I am not a Lampi expert like you guys. I spent a good part of the day at Axpona listening to both the B-7 and the GG. As many on this forum know I was keenly interested in the Lampi and this was my primary reason for attending the show. It was not under ideal conditions. I would never use this venue to pick the Lampi over the Allinic or vice versa, but the conditions were more than adequate for me to recognize the wonderful and familiar sound of DHT euphonics. I adore them. I also know and understand their limitations.

Originally Posted by wisnon

The only DHT Dac I can think of apart from Lampi is the Allnic which uses ONLY the small 3A5 tubes. I would not equate Allnic user opinion with Lampi as they have nothing to do with each other. Most Lampi DHT Dac owners NEVER roll tubes.
Anyway, its your right to feel the way you do Paul, even if divorced from reality. LoL

Originally Posted by wisnon

You seem to think DHTs in amps correspond directly to the implementation in Dacs. My experience is different.
Also the rectis have a big impact, so its not all about the DHT output tubes.

I already said you are free to FEEL how you wish, but you pass judgement on a piece at a show on the opening day when the speakers had issues? Did you listen to speakers or to the electronics then?
I think you are generalizing too much.

Umm no Norman, you said I am free to feel the way I do and then made it clear I am divorced from reality and laughed out loud at me ....that is a very different thing. You should be more careful.

Originally Posted by Mike

Interesting. Like I said in my review, it's like adding a top notch SET amp to your system. For some, that's nirvana, for others it's "too colored". I notice this right away when I switch back to my Lumin or T+A. It doesn't make it right or wrong, just a different delivery.

What was it about vinyl that you loved so much? A year ago I don't think vinyl was seriously on your radar. Today it might be front and center, no?

True Mike, you are observant. As I have said else where, as simple as I can put things it really comes down to vinyl being more real to me and at the same time more relaxing. Maybe its a time domain thing. Frankly, DHT does a bit of the same thing for me but at the expense of noise, frequency range, and coloration (depending on the tubes). I want a super-quiet, full range, neutral option as my baseline. That's why I went for the Arc Ref 10 Phono (with a SS first gain stage and 6922's) over the Allnic H5000 DHT phono, and I went with Nordost wires over others. Like I have tried to say before, IMO this is very personal and not about what's best. I suppose you could argue I should have done the Soulution 750 phono given my baseline goals but I felt that was a little too much SS for my taste. The Ref 10 is very neutral, quiet and full range to my ears, but has a bit of the second harmonic goodness.

Originally Posted by FlexibleAudio

Continuing to make progress.....slowly but surely. Music won't be for a while. Getting room designed by Nyal at Acoustic Frontiers. Picking a contractor. Ordered new Ascona. Bought a lightly used MSB Diamond Dac IV Plus with Galaxy and nice upgrade path. Thanks for asking.

Originally Posted by Mike

If the REF10 phono is anything like the REF10 preamp, you're in for a real treat.

I'll be very interested to see what table you end up with. Of course my vote is for the Kronos!

Sorry Mike, but as I mentioned above I did the Ascona. I think Gunther does a real nice job of engineering for sound absorption and I like a mass loaded design for dynamics. It is very very quiet and neutral which is the goal right now. Again, thats just me. I gotta start some where. No doubt the Kronos is phenomenal.

Originally Posted by still-one

Mike
It hasn't really been about the MSB Select DAC since the first page!! That was about 65 post ago.

Sorry about that Jim.

Originally Posted by still-one

So a proper audition is when you agree with the results?

No, quite obvious. One which is not at a hifi show, especially for an electronic item (dac, CD, amp, pre, etc)

Originally Posted by MDP

Mike has a great point here. One of the things I love about the Lumin,beside the sound, is that the model I bought has not been replaced or updated. I receive automatic updates when they are released, and so my product stays current.
Lamp should slow down and concentrate on a few products and make them the best they can be, and then live with it for a few years while R&D continue.
Constant change does keep people like me away from their product.

That said, I still want to hear a Lampi !!

The truth is people like to upgrade. Like Wisnon, I am not upgrading from my B7. The B7 beats Trinity, Esoteric K01, Playback designs and MSB on multiple systems where people have heard them next to each other (Of the only two reports I have seen go the other way, one is at a hifi show, and the one was Ian (Madfloyd)), and remember that most positive Lampi reports are with low quality valves (i.e. replicas). Only Mike, Sfox, and one or two others have real quality valves.

Given that to me the B7 beats other digital sources at much less the price, I don't see the point of upgrading to GG to beat only the B7. Happy to be second best. But the jump from L5 to B7 was well worth it as for a small price I vaulted over a lot of digital

Originally Posted by wisnon

Relax Paul, its all good.
I wish you joy in your audio quest. As long as you are happy...I am happy for you.
Just a little poking in fun, that's all.

Norman, I am quite relaxed. However, when I see an otherwise rational person consistently act in irrational ways I tend to smell a rat. In this thread alone you have said the following as it relates to my views on wholly subjective matters:

---My opinion is wrong.
---I am making blind judgments.
---I am divorced from reality.

This kind of irrational zealotry does not upset me in the least, it does, however, make me question your motivations. Do you recall a couple of months ago when I pondered wether you might have a financial interest in Lampi, you responded by offering me stock in a Swiss Audio company if I had "played nice on Lampi."

If you had played nice, I would have arranged to send you a Pvt Equity solicitation for a stake in a well known Swiss high end outfit that is thinking of expanding. I dunno what you pocket is like, but as you like the hobby and maybe had interest, it was a possibility.

So let me get this straight: I question whether your unrelenting, multi-forum pushing of all things Lampi which includes aggression toward all challengers might be financially motivated and you respond by denying any such thing but offer me a financial interest in another Audio Company if I "play nice regarding Lampi." Norman, I do not take a thing you say seriously so please leave me out of your diatribes.

Originally Posted by wisnon

First of all, to post private conversations is a big no-no! Speaks more about you than me.

2nd of all, play nice with ME (that should have been clear to you). Do you think I would pass ona refernce to someone who behaved in sstrange way? You were far from nice, accusing me of stuff like you do now. The company is owned by an acaquintance of mine who asked me as a favour to refer any potential investors I may run into. The fellow asked me as he knows I work in Corporate Finance and I MAY run into interested people. Nothing in it for me except friendship and I approached you as you may have been interested. however, as I have no skin in the game and you started to become unpleasant (with baseless accusations), I backed away. Again you claim stuff about playing nice with Lampi and your own excerpt says different. I dont work for Lampi nor any other company in Audio. No financial ties at all. i can hardly see how a Polish firm could afford Swiss salaries, when based on the Financials of even most of famous high end brands could NOT afford to pay me what I earn in Pharma. Switzerland is a big Pharma country, in case you dont know. Go talk to the people who actually know me, they know better. Even people I tangentially know like Marty from WBF know better as our companies crossed paths in the past. Go check out companies like Actelion, Roche, Merck-Serono (my old company), Novartis, Alexion, etc...That is my world.

I have the prospectus right here with me and I hve another local pals who has Gulf State heavyweight contacts and I passed on a copy to him to follow up with, as I think this particular audio company makes very commendable products and with expansion has the potential to sake up the high end market. i will let you know right here if and when it happens. This is just a hobby for me and I dont seek or expect to make a penny from any of this. I think you KNOW this and are trying to be mischievous. Oh well, it wont work with me as I have truth and reality in my corner. Not everybody is chasing a buck by any means necessary. Maybe in your world, not mine.

You have done your worst, but its no skin off my back.

Now, do YOU work for Soulution? You seem touchy about all things related to them, so Can I ridiculously assume you work for them?

Norman, you know darn well your comment about "behaving nicely" related to the fact that I came back from Axpona having decided to not buy Lampi and I spoke publicly on the forum about my reasoning. Per usual, you jumped on me so aggressively I finally questioned if you had a financial interest in an audio company and you denied it but offered me a financial interest in an audio company to behave nice.

In addition, the last time we had these pleasantries you made the same comments about me and my Soulution and you did it again earlier in this thread. It seems to be your weapon of choice when anyone stands up to you about your zealotry. Accuse the accuser of your behavior. Give me one example of me ever making a comment about my Soulution gear other than it matches well with Raidho's. That old school ploy is not applicable in this case.

As far as me "trying to be mischievous," Norman I try to just ignore most of your Lampi spin because it often makes little sense to me but sometimes it just goes to far. When you refute the well established characteristics of DHT's just because they reside in a Lampi is just silly and brings me back to thinking about your past behavior. I would never waste my time being mischievous for sport especially on your behalf, but dude you gotta keep it real in these threads.

Originally Posted by MDP

OK Boys, I've had enough of this bickering in public. If you want to continue this discussion,do it with PM's.

Clear??

I think Paul has made a pretty serious allegation that can affect the brand, and definitely Wisnon's online personality unless it's clarified. One of them is right. One of them loses a lot of credibility on forums depending on who is right. So I think clarity is important

I have simply stated facts. People can draw there own conclusions. I did not directly accuse Norman of anything. I asked a question he responded with the PM posted. That is the reality.

Originally Posted by MDP

OK Boys, I've had enough of this bickering in public. If you want to continue this discussion,do it with PM's.

Clear??

I understand Mark. I apologize to the forum that we reached that point. It was not my intention.

Originally Posted by wisnon

Mark I agree and I will discontinue, as I stated in my previous post.

Bonzo, as I have no financial or business connections in audio, I really dont care, personally. indeed, next time you come to Geneva, look me up and I will show you exactly where I work. I already know where you work in London when I called you last time.

Hi Norman I know where you work and nothing from me. But there are lot of people surfing the internet in their product search and while reading online recommendations. Do they take one based on what was heard at a hifi show, or discredit yours because of the allegations made by Paul?

Originally Posted by MDP

Mike and I are both sick of personal bickering. It has no value to our hobby.

Agreed