Thread: Looking for Tube DAC recommendations .....

I'd like your opinions, experience with, and tube dac recommendations. Thanks!

Here is one I have and still use. It's an Audio Logic 24MXL made by the late, great digital guru Jerry Ozment. I bought this in 2001 as a 2400 model and had it upgraded 3 years later to the 24MXL status. I just replaced the tubes again and it still sounds great.


http://www.perrottaconsulting.com/audiologic1.htm

audiologic24mxl-frontend.jpg

Arc ref dac.

http://www.audioresearch.com/ReferenceDAC.html

http://www.absolutesounds.com/pdf/ma...REFDAC4web.pdf

Has anybody heard this one?

Originally Posted by Mike

Arc ref dac.

Audio Research Reference DAC Digital Media Bridge

First of all let me say that for the short amount of time that this site has been up, I've found so much material to read it's not funny. I hope there won't be a test anytime soon...

After Mikes suggestion of the ARC REF DAC, I would recommend looking at the Wavelength DAC's. The only problem with Wavelength is that it is USB input only, but if that works for you Gordon is the man for USB DAC's.

Here's his website: Wavelength Audio, USB DACS, Crimson, Cosecant, Brick, Proton, Tube DACs

I used a Wyred 4 Sound DAC2 for a few years here. It was great at detail and precision, but seemed to be a bit harsh and lean in my system. I tried a few different DACs around the same price range ($1500-2000) but they were so similar that it didn't seem right to make a lateral move. I found a dealer who let me borrow a Wavelength Brick. It's a simple black box with one USB input and a single 12AU7 tube inside. It was much more musical than the Wyred but gave up a bit of the detail that I was use to. At that point I decided to up my budget realizing in order to get more I needed to spend more. I really wanted to get something like the Meitner MA-1, or the EMM DAC2x that you have. They were a bit over my price range though. I was seriously looking at the Wavelength Cosecant when the same dealer let me try his ARC DAC8. It had everything that I wanted. The detail was there along with that musicality I heard with the Wavelength. Now the DAC8 isn't tube based but hearing what I did with that piece, I wouldn't hesitate to jump at the REF DAC.

Another thing about ARC is the service they provide. If they release a product like a DAC and say it's capable of playing a certain type of file, you can be sure to know that it will. They also continue to update their drivers quickly when an update is needed and not a year or so down the line. I've been so impressed with my experience with them that I may eventually make the switch to all ARC gear.

The REF DAC has just about everything one would need from a DAC.

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/ces2012/ces2012_arc.htm

Originally Posted by dlb2

First of all let me say that for the short amount of time that this site has been up, I've found so much material to read it's not funny. I hope there won't be a test anytime soon...

After Mikes suggestion of the ARC REF DAC, I would recommend looking at the Wavelength DAC's. The only problem with Wavelength is that it is USB input only, but if that works for you Gordon is the man for USB DAC's.

Here's his website: Wavelength Audio, USB DACS, Crimson, Cosecant, Brick, Proton, Tube DACs

I used a Wyred 4 Sound DAC2 for a few years here. It was great at detail and precision, but seemed to be a bit harsh and lean in my system. I tried a few different DACs around the same price range ($1500-2000) but they were so similar that it didn't seem right to make a lateral move. I found a dealer who let me borrow a Wavelength Brick. It's a simple black box with one USB input and a single 12AU7 tube inside. It was much more musical than the Wyred but gave up a bit of the detail that I was use to. At that point I decided to up my budget realizing in order to get more I needed to spend more. I really wanted to get something like the Meitner MA-1, or the EMM DAC2x that you have. They were a bit over my price range though. I was seriously looking at the Wavelength Cosecant when the same dealer let me try his ARC DAC8. It had everything that I wanted. The detail was there along with that musicality I heard with the Wavelength. Now the DAC8 isn't tube based but hearing what I did with that piece, I wouldn't hesitate to jump at the REF DAC.

It's pretty cool when we are allowed to share info and post great links to all the great sites out there. That's what it's all about. Oh, no formal test but maybe a pop quiz now and then just to make sure you are paying attention. Eyes front, pencils down.

The Ref DAC looks very interesting. My Audio Logic is probably the oldest piece I have and it still works great but I just wonder how the new stuff sounds. I am looking for some sweetness and will give up a little detail to get it, especially for streaming audio or those less than stellar recordings.

Doug,

Thanks for the input.

Originally Posted by dlb2

Another thing about ARC is the service they provide. If they release a product like a DAC and say it's capable of playing a certain type of file, you can be sure to know that it will. They also continue to update their drivers quickly when an update is needed and not a year or so down the line. I've been so impressed with my experience with them that I may eventually make the switch to all ARC gear.

The REF DAC has just about everything one would need from a DAC.

The Audio Beat - CES & THE Show 2012 - Hot Product - Audio Research Reference DAC, Reference 5 SE & Reference Phono 2 SE

I know exactly what you mean. Thanks for the info.

Joe - I think "THE" DAC to get will be the new Lampizator Series 4 (with DSD capability coming). It will be tube and fully DSD compatible!

Fikus wrote: "HA !!! Finally - DSD done RIGHT !
I am very excited to have created my first DSD DAC and done it without chips. I designed a pure tube, zero solid state active decoder and filter that does DSD conversion without silicon. It is not easy to make but so satisfying. It takes all formats and file types and plays them with vinyl quality. It is for me a new era of digital. And in accordance with my LampizatOr principles I have glowing tubes in the DAC."

Mike

Originally Posted by Klipschfan

If you are pleased with your current DAC, just add a quality high end tube buffer. Give Bill a call or email-
Purity Audio Design "Harmony" Audiophile Vacuum Tube Buffer

Another good suggestion!

Joe - another option would be to have a DSD DAC (Benchmark 2.0 or Mytek 192) just for DSD playback and have a tube DAC like the ARC REF DAC for everything else.

I'm just not sure how long the Lampizator is going to take to come to market. It's still in testing phase.

Mike

Thanks Brian! Looks pretty cool.

Originally Posted by Klipschfan

If you are pleased with your current DAC, just add a quality high end tube buffer. Give Bill a call or email-
Purity Audio Design "Harmony" Audiophile Vacuum Tube Buffer

Joe - more on the LampizatOr DSD DAC:

LampizatOr DSD DAC



The DSD done right
In April 2013 we designed a DAC that converts DSD datastream (all types known) to analog and does it WITHOUT SILICON. We tried various chips - all kinds - some “DSD READY” some DSD through PCM and some real DSD.

As a chief designer I felt that Lampizator fame needs a DAC like no other. I created a converter that treats the DSD in pure analog domain and produces music in it’s virgin glory. Without any manipulation, digital processing, PCM conversion, delta sigma, or anything like that. We keep DSD in its purest native form and keep the sound with phase coherence, zero colorations or compression.

The sound is the purest copy of the original DSD recording we can think of.

The process is 100% free of active solid state components. Ony tube active filters are employed. At the end the signal is amplified by triodes again - in the way we always have done at LampizatOr.

I don’t follow the world developments in this field and I don’t have time to read internet forums but I guess this must be one of the first such pure tube DSD DACs worldwide.

In my design I used the FM radio principle for tuning into the datastream and extracting music modulation from the carrier waveform. The technology therefore is based on the grandmother’s radio with green magic eye.

The associated equipment is any computer - PC or MAC or Linux and ISO, DFF or DSF files. We also need a high quality USB cable that is “dsd-ready”. (we sell such cable in our shop).


The DSD DAC will be available from Level 3 to 5. (not the 6).
Commercial availability - June 2013.
Retro-fit upgrades of existing DACS will be provided when time allows.
The DSD DAC will play also PCM material via USB and SPDIF.

Price premium for DSD : To be announced in May.

Surprised nobody said AMR DP-777... has a few tubes in there, too.

Originally Posted by hiro100

Hi Joe

I had the AMR DP-777 for awhile to compare with the MSB and it was one of my favorite dacs I've had in my system. Very smooth with a slight warmth without sacrificing much detail. Another tube dac worth looking into is the Lampizator. It definitely had it's strengths with a very rich, warm, and dense sound but I think it's a piece you need to audition. In my system it did not work too well masking too much detail for my preference. I heard the ARC reference dac (not in my system) and it was very capable but the interface and accessing music via the network was having some issues when I tried it out. I would look at the Arc CD 9 which has a USB input so you can use it as a DAC and is not as complicated as the Arc Reference Dac. The CD 8 and CD 9 always sound very good every time I listen to a system with it.

Welcome to AS Hiro!!

I love my AMR DP-777.. but that's just me

Originally Posted by VT Skier

Doesn't Joe's EMM already handle DSD?

It does, so DSD is not really necessary.

Originally Posted by -E-

Surprised nobody said AMR DP-777... has a few tubes in there, too.

Originally Posted by hiro100

Hi Joe

I had the AMR DP-777 for awhile to compare with the MSB and it was one of my favorite dacs I've had in my system. Very smooth with a slight warmth without sacrificing much detail. Another tube dac worth looking into is the Lampizator. It definitely had it's strengths with a very rich, warm, and dense sound but I think it's a piece you need to audition. In my system it did not work too well masking too much detail for my preference. I heard the ARC reference dac (not in my system) and it was very capable but the interface and accessing music via the network was having some issues when I tried it out. I would look at the Arc CD 9 which has a USB input so you can use it as a DAC and is not as complicated as the Arc Reference Dac. The CD 8 and CD 9 always sound very good every time I listen to a system with it.

Originally Posted by Dewster

Welcome to AS Hiro!!

I love my AMR DP-777.. but that's just me

AMR is definitely on my radar.

What got me thinking about all this was the fact that my Audiologic was making the not so great recordings sound way better. I got the idea something newer might be even better - at least it would handle music higher than 24/96 if I wanted.

Originally Posted by Mike

Joe - I think "THE" DAC to get will be the new Lampizator Series 4 (with DSD capability coming). It will be tube and fully DSD compatible!

Fikus wrote: "HA !!! Finally - DSD done RIGHT !
I am very excited to have created my first DSD DAC and done it without chips. I designed a pure tube, zero solid state active decoder and filter that does DSD conversion without silicon. It is not easy to make but so satisfying. It takes all formats and file types and plays them with vinyl quality. It is for me a new era of digital. And in accordance with my LampizatOr principles I have glowing tubes in the DAC."

Mike

Originally Posted by bzr

Hi Joe, I have the Lampizator 4 coming in a few weeks. Just remember it takes a good 2-3 mths to get one depending on how busy bobthebuilder is. The Ref DAC is a great thing & the only reason I didn't buy it is that I want separate components so i went to the Soulution pre & the Lampi. Will give you an update when I have some hours on it.

Thanks Mike. Great recommendation

Kev,

Congratulations! I will be very interested in your opinion. I am not in a hurry but thought I'd start the research early.

Keep us posted.

Joe...many good choices already mentioned (ARC Ref DAC and CD 9, AMR DP-777, Lampizator, all the Wavelength USB DACs), so a few more for your consideration (and these run the gamut int erms of price range):

1) EAR 192 DACute: ear sources

or the newly released EAR SACD DAC (meaning can handle DSD) and Transport. And here is a pic of that combo from the NY Audio Show:



And here's a link to the show blog: Wes Bender Studio/E.A.R. | AudioStream

The EAR 192 DACute has quite a few reviews out there:

http://www.earyoshino.com/HiFi_World...192_DACute.pdf
EAR 192 DACute (£4003/£4440) - Outboard DACs

Here's a review of the CD player with USB input: ear acute

2) Oppo BDP-105 with Modwright Tube Mods:



Of course for review, look no further than our very own Jeff (JJinID) with his thread on the subject here: http://audioshark.org/modwright-inst...105-a-122.html. He finds it competitive with $10K player DACs!

3) Ayon CD-5S:



Serge owns both the the EAR ACute CD player and the Ayon 5S both of which are tubed player/DACs. Reviews:

Ayon Audio CD-5s CD Player Review | Dagogo | A Unique Audiophile Experience
http://www.ayonaudio.com/fileadmin/u...phile_2011.pdf
http://www.ayonaudio.com/fileadmin/p...wards_CD5s.pdf

Cyril,

Thank you for all the great recommendations. I really do have a lot to look at. The ModWright Oppo 105 is high on my list but the others will definitely be looked at for sure.

Joe,
I have heard tube dacs sounding less analog than my MDA1000 so to be honest, I don't have any interests in tubes in a dac.
Sorry guys but you're just falling into marketing here.
To deliver a 2.5V signal out of a digital source, there is absolutely ZERO reason to prefer tubes over class A discrete components. The level of "amplification" is so tiny there that tubes have absolutely no justification. At this level, tubes and SS act exactly the same.
Tubes get their utility in preamps, power amps and phono stages.
Even the use of a 6550 tube in the power supply section like ARC does is very questionnable.

Originally Posted by Jerome W

Joe,
I have heard tube dacs sounding less analog than my MDA1000 so to be honest, I don't have any interests in tubes in a dac.
Sorry guys but you're just falling into marketing here.
To deliver a 2.5V signal out of a digital source, there is absolutely ZERO reason to prefer tubes over class A discrete components. The level of "amplification" is so tiny there that tubes have absolutely no justification. At this level, tubes and SS act exactly the same.
Tubes get their utility in preamps, power amps and phono stages.
Even the use of a 6550 tube in the power supply section like ARC does is very questionnable.

I see your point Jerome, but sometimes people just want tubes. Tubes, tubes, glorious tubes!

Originally Posted by Jerome W

Joe,
I have heard tube dacs sounding less analog than my MDA1000 so to be honest, I don't have any interests in tubes in a dac.
Sorry guys but you're just falling into marketing here.
To deliver a 2.5V signal out of a digital source, there is absolutely ZERO reason to prefer tubes over class A discrete components. The level of "amplification" is so tiny there that tubes have absolutely no justification. At this level, tubes and SS act exactly the same.
Tubes get their utility in preamps, power amps and phono stages.
Even the use of a 6550 tube in the power supply section like ARC does is very questionnable.

Jerome...I am not sure I follow the logic in your argument. Can you explain more what you mean? Thx

Cyril,
What I say is pretty well known in the audio world :
There is no justification to use tubes in a source component which delivers a signal of 1.8 to 2.5 V. At such levels, tubes are not different than SS components : actually they can only add more noise.
Even Nagra does not use tubes in their cd player or their dac. If you ask them why, they will give you this answer. Tubes in a fixed low output digital component where no amplification is needed ( I'm not talking about dacs or cd players with a preamp section and a variable output of 6 to 8 V ) have no effects on the sound and no advantages over SS.
They are used for marketing reasons in those places.

Cyril,
To be perfectly clear, I do not mean that tube based CD players or Dac do not sound good. Most of them sound wonderful, but they would sound the same with SS components.
As Doug said, some people want tubes everywhere.
So now you found tubes in cd and dacs and power supplies !

Jerome... I have no understanding of the technical specs. All I know is my AMR CD player sounds amazing. I guess I am saying I don't care if it's SS or tube I just want it to sound great.

Jeff,

I mean the same. If a tube Dac sounds great I will buy it anyway. I just do not believe that the great sound will be BECAUSE of the use of tubes, opposite to preamps and power amps.

How about a $399 DAC that blows away competitors costing 2K or more? Heard about this from an audiophile friend before it was even available...pretty incredible

Their site MyDac

Reviews
Product Preview: Micromega MyDAC -The $399 Miracle | The Absolute Sound

The Micromega MyDac is an instant audiophile classic | The Audiophiliac - CNET News

I am a TUBE guy and I can tell you, unless its to light the room or for visual coolness, stick with SS. I am sure that there are some VERY fine tube decks out there that sound equally as good (as has been pointed out earlier) but you will be paying for the coolness of the tubes, not what they add.

Save yourself ALOT of money and investigate the MYDAC

Rob,

That's a cute little thing. Thanks!

Joe already know this......but I will simply say that "Something's Coming"!

I can't wait ....

Originally Posted by joeinid

I can't wait ....

It should be worth waiting for Joe...hope you liked my "teaser" video! It applies to me on the preamp front!

If I had not ordered the modded Sony 5400, I'd have the modded Oppo 105. Now that I see some light on a stand alone unit, I'm happy.

I'm sure Dan's preamp is awesome. Looks like he knows his stuff.

Zanden receives great reviews.

Originally Posted by joeinid

Zanden receives great reviews.

Hi Joe my friend had these three dacs at the same time to evaluate and chose to keep the Jadis.

In his system the Zanden had a warmer sound - - - The Metronome had a livelier sound - - - The Jadis was in the middle - - - i know for me it would have been the Zanden but it wasn't for me.

1106zandan.1.jpg - - - 9129_js1.jpg - - - c8.png - - -

Thank you Andre,

I'm with you. I think the Zanden would be my preference also based on your descriptions.

I plan on taking my time on a new DAC. I think there are more to come from some of my favorite manufacturers and it will give me a chance to get my vinyl rig going.

Originally Posted by MrAcoustat

Hi Joe my friend had these three dacs at the same time to evaluate and chose to keep the Jadis.

In his system the Zanden had a warmer sound - - - The Metronome had a livelier sound - - - The Jadis was in the middle - - - i know for me it would have been the Zanden but it wasn't for me.

1106zandan.1.jpg - - - 9129_js1.jpg - - - c8.png - - -

Joe...another one to consider is the new DAC from Cary Audio - they have both tube and SS variants: Cary Audio Design - DAC-100t - DAC

That looks interesting Cyril. I like it.

Hmmmm. Cary makes great gear. I'll check this out.

Originally Posted by cmalak

Joe...another one to consider is the new DAC from Cary Audio - they have both tube and SS variants: Cary Audio Design - DAC-100t - DAC

Originally Posted by MrAcoustat

Hi Joe my friend had these three dacs at the same time to evaluate and chose to keep the Jadis.

In his system the Zanden had a warmer sound - - - The Metronome had a livelier sound - - - The Jadis was in the middle - - - i know for me it would have been the Zanden but it wasn't for me.

1106zandan.1.jpg - - - 9129_js1.jpg - - - c8.png - - -

Hey Mr. A...great to see you here. I think I have spoken with him. yes, he loved his Zanden for years, and went back to Jadis after some time. I think he also had Metronome Kalista Ref Transport at one point. Perhaps he kept it? In any event, I have heard the Metronome Kalista Ref/C2A several times but not the Jadis which apparently is great. I would generally agree that 'untweaked' the C2A is livelier...but like much of the handmade stuff, I have found a lot of value in experimenting with my beloved Zanden. I am not here to try to change anyone's mind, but rather really enjoying sharing my own experiences with Zanden. The 'stock Zanden' plunked down on a table does have some vague shimmer which 'weakens' the strength of the signal, and particularly the bass. However, from an ever so slightly vague signal and light bass response, I managed to surpass the bass slam of an Esoteric X-01SE and Audio Aero La Source (also Esoteric vrds mkv transport) in my system. And markedly increase the depth and strength of the signal/note tone. Without changing the voice of the Zanden DAC. So for me, i'm happy. Tweaks?: Zanden DAC PSU tubes should be changed to Mullard 6CA4 and Sylvania 6X4, you can upgrad ethe stock tube in the main DAC with Amperex 7308 and EAT tube damper. Then to really decrease the shimmer and really start to produce a very, very strong deep note (still Zanden voiced), every single one of the 4 boxes needs great isolation and damping. So HRS underneath and a variety of HRS/Artesania/Stillpoints damping plates on top. The Stillpoints/Entreq dealer came over having heard 3 other Zanden digital systems before, and when we played deep house, he said he had never heard a Zanden slam tight, deep propulsive bass like this before. Its been 5 years of experimenting, but I think I've got it right now (at least for my ears)...and I have shared this with the good people at Zanden as well.

From PA,

Holy moly!

Just plugged in my new Lampizator gen 4/level 4 and whoa! Amazing. I really didn't think my system could sound this good. And right out of the box. I don't know how to describe except musical. I hear the interplay of instruments more and it sounds like I am right there with the musicians. I was a little doubtful but I see why people get so gaga over it. I have tried the Benchmark dac2, teac ud-501 and Peachtree iNova and, no sir, they are not even close.



« Last Edit: 14 Sep 2013, 09:03 pm by Jason »

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A couple of other nice touches - the L4 was optimised for the input impedance of my preamp and I was asked what output level I'd like. Plumped for 2.5V but TBH that obviously varies with the tube installed. CV491 (ECC82) requires noticeably more preamp gain than either ECC40 or 6829.

The L4 is excellent. It is hard to be read as objective without people thinking it is just self-affirming "I made the right decision" type of prose.

The price leap between the L3 and the L4 I have is substantial, but the increase in performance is "on another level". And indeed it is a level 4 - 1 level up!

Which kind of makes me extremely curious as to the quality of sonics available from a 5 or 6. I don't believe it'd be possible to have the same degree of lift in performance as witnessed between L3->L4 V-Cap'd.

I haven't heard a digital source that betters the L4's level of performance in my system. But that's just my opinion and biasing, I suppose.


========================
I thought it'd be interesting to take the Lukasz description of the Gen 4 sound and comment on them. In relation to the previous generation I can't comment, which is what his comments refer to. So my observations are simply objective rather than relative. Or where I have felt like it they are relative to an L3.

1) The musical changes are among others: more palpable sound, more “here” in front of you. You can isolate separate threads easier and follow them easier and understand who is doing what.

3D projection is very good. But the bolded bit is absolutely spot on. Rather than stuff getting a bit hashed together, it is incredibly easy to follow various aspects of some particular part in both simple and complex passages. It's the ability to handle complex passages that really stands out - when there's a lot in the mix it really seems quite oddly good at doing this.

It is a bit like comparing a cheap cartridge to an expensive one whose tracking ability is vastly better. Only the level to which this is taken with the L4 is beyond any analogue or digital source I have ever heard in my system. It is literally brilliant at it.

3) There is a deeper and more tuneful bass.

Well it is deep. It is tuneful. And in the L4 it is better controlled than in L3. It is also fast without being "forced fast" if that makes any sense.

4) Human voices are more human.

A fellow Apogee owner from Lichtenstein came round and remarked how good voices were with the L3. They are more real sounding with the L4. But then so are instruments - which get close to convincingly being in front of you. But then you could say that about quite a few good DACs.

5) The 3D space is a more believable one.

No question the L4 can place various elements of the sound where you'd expect them to be. With electronic music that fails to take on much meaning, though, but it still conjures up a very nice soundstage.

The L4 is considerably better than the L3 was with electronic music. It is quicker, and the bass doesn't lose the required control/grip. But it'll never beat my old Tri-Vista in its ability to shove out bass that is both very controlled and subjectively fast.

6) Long time fatigue is significantly smaller

Agreed. But then again rougher, harsher sounds can sometimes help to maintain interest, even if it is ultimately fatiguing. You cannot have everything. It is all a compromise.

7) Any remaining “digital roughness” is completely gone.

Totally true. And maybe hard to get used to. A prime example of this is the Libertines first album which I used to find a bit difficult to get through with the Tri-Vista and other DACs. It sounded bloody fabulous on Friday night. Really clear, alive and energetic and not at all harsh/rough. This aspect seems to apply to pretty much everything - there is no "digital glare" to speak of. A bit uncanny and quite unusual.

I have to concede that from all the above you just don't know how it sounds, just like any other written review. All you can do is imagine... but the above should help point you in a direction or frame of mind as to the sorts of things that this DAC is good at.

Thermionic DSD, LampizatOr Style | Confessions of a Part-Time Audiophile