What does it take?

JayT

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I have a simple headphone system in my office at work with a pair of Audeze LCD-2 headphones connected to my PC through a USB-connected ALO Pan-Am headphone amp/dac. The sound of most recordings is pretty stunning, and even recordings that are less-than-stellar sound very good.

What does it take to achieve this level of performance with a 2-channel speaker-based audio system?

By today's standards, my current 2-channel music system is not terribly expensive - probably totaling $18K or so at retail including cables. While it images much better than the headphone system (even the best headphone imaging doesn't sound very natural to me), I don't think it comes close to delivering the detail, top-to-bottom cohesiveness and smoothness, and satisfaction on a wide range of recordings that I get from my headphone system. On the best recordings, my stereo sounds fabulous and is immensely enjoyable, but there are so many recordings that I listen to, and enjoy, on my headphone system that sound like crap through my stereo.

So I'm wondering if it is possible to get a speaker-based system that will sound spectacular on the best recordings, but that is also forgiving enough to make less-than-stellar recordings sound really good, and how much one has to spend to achieve this.

Obviously, some of this comes down to the room. A big advantage of a headphone system is that acoustics are much better controlled. I'm the first to admit that my room acoustics are terrible, but I have spent a fair amount of time and money trying to make the room listenable. And, as I stated, on many recordings it sounds great. So how much does the room come into play in broadening the range of recordings that sound good?

Interested in your thoughts. Thanks.
 
You’ve got some very nice gear, so maybe you could further define “Sounds like crap?

What is it about the recordings that sound great on your headphone system that sound bad on your 2 channel system? Harshness, sibilants, etc? Or maybe a feeling of uneven or over blown bass?

My LCD-4’s are very smooth and I expect the LCD-2’s have a similar signature. Some people even call it ‘buttery’ whatever the hell that means. Just very smooth and non-fatiguing.

We have the same DAC and it is outstanding.

My 2 channel rig has similar tonality to my headphone rig. I went through quite a few speakers to find ones with the sonic signature I like. So I would say getting a great result in 2 channel is just harder and requires more effort in terms of setup.
 
Jay

I've owned a pair of Golden Ear speakers, Triton 5, in the past and they can if not set up just right sound quite siblant and forward. What I had to do with the to get them listenable on most recordings is to adjust the rake angle based on the seating height. A good example of how to do that is in the manual of any of the Vandersteen non-power speakers. Based on the seating height of the furniture at that time I had to raise the rear spikes a good bit and it toned the GE's down. Though while you would never even then confuse them for a Vandersteen or Harbeth it did make them in general more listenable. If the Audeze headphones are in fact "buttery" as Tom described you need to look for a speaker with those qualities. That will probably not include most of the now "popular" reviewed and talked about brands. Another step in the right direction if you intend to keep the Nord is to change from the Parasound to a tube preamp.
 
maybe you could further define “Sounds like crap?"


Crap is probably too harsh a term. If I had to pick a single word, I'd use congested. On my headphone system, it's easy to distinguish individual instruments, and voices and instruments/sound effects sound clear and detailed. On my main two-channel system, complex music (lots of layered sounds) can often sounds muddled and kind of flat.


It's possible that this is a problem with the room acoustics, or could be an issue with one or more of my components or component interaction. Or it could be that imaging problems are much more obvious on my main system than with headphones.


I've owned a pair of Golden Ear speakers, Triton 5, in the past and they can if not set up just right sound quite siblant and forward. What I had to do with the to get them listenable on most recordings is to adjust the rake angle based on the seating height.


I do have the rear height raised a bit so that the tweeters are facing more directly at ear height. Is this what you meant?


I'm not sure if sibilant is the right term, but I have noticed on some recordings that certain instruments and voices sound a little hard, particularly with increased volume.


The things I like about the GE Triton 2+ are the excellent bass which seems very well integrated with the rest of the sound, and the very dynamic sound. They are sometimes a bit forward sounding - with some recordings, I really like this, but others not so much.


Another step in the right direction if you intend to keep the Nord is to change from the Parasound to a tube preamp.


I would like to try a good tube preamp at some point. I had (and still own) a Schitt Freya preamp in my system before the Parasound, but I was frustrated by how noisy the tubes were (or became after a few months). I probably did not give this enough of a chance, but I tried it with the stock tubes as well as Tung-Sol tubes. At one point, I switched between the Tube output stage and the FET buffer, and heard a loud chirp which blew the tweeter on my previous speakers. This turned me off from playing with the pre-amp further. I ended up with the Parasound because a local dealer was willing to trade me for some equipment I was no longer using. Probably not the best reason to pick a piece of equipment.
 
Jay

Yes that is what I meant by rake angle. I used a blank sheet of paper with a large X for the ear level and a laser level to make the adjustment and it definitely helped some but in the end some of what you are hearing got them moved out of the Main system. They fared much better in the Family Room system where the much larger room gave them move room to breathe and get further away from the walls. In the end what you're hearing is kind of the nature of that beast. Only way I know to tame what you perceive is with a tube preamp and copper IC's and SC's and that may not be enough. You might want to see if one of your local dealers will let you try a another tube preamp and see if it help but it doesn't need to be one that uses 6H30 tubes.
 
Usually congestion is caused by reflections where the direct sound and sound reflected off walls ceiling, and floors all combine to create a blurred presentation. Coffee tables and gear placed between the speakers are also common acoustic problems.
 
I started out in the headphone side and indeed it was difficult to replicate the cohesive, liquid flow of music from great headphones. You need to experiment with different speaker brands and technologies until you find one that turns you on, sonically. For me this was Tannoy - I theorize that the point-source nature of the dual concentric drivers better replicates the cohesive sound of single-driver headphones, versus traditional tower speakers with drivers of different frequency ranges assaulting your ears from different points in space. And I love electrostatic headphones (Stax), but serving up bass from an electrostatic speaker is much more problematic. The Tannoy bass is not of the pristine quality of Stax, but the overall musicality and lifelike presentation (more like a performance than a reproduction) wins me over easily, and I prefer it to the very best Stax setup (SR-009 with a custom T2 amplifier) - even with mediocre recordings, and I listen to lots of rock & heavy metal. Though yes, there is much more $$$$ invested on the speaker side here.

Another aspect of Tannoys is the controlled dispersion. This makes them much more room and placement friendly than traditional wide-dispersion tweeters. And their high efficiency of course helps with the amplification side (I like tubes). Yes acoustic treatment is important, but if you have good room dimensions and nice furnishings (i.e. not too many hard reflective surfaces, not too low a ceiling or small a room, not just an audio shoebox with only audio gear in it), and spend good effort in the placement of speakers & seating, then a great speaker like the Tannoys can easily shine and strut its stuff with only very minimal acoustic treatments - no need to go overboard here.
 
Since the only practical way of setting up my system is with the gear in between my speakers I found moving the speakers out in front helped a lot. I also noticed that the pre-amp seemed to have a great influence on detail and instrument definition, separating even very complex music.
 
My system is set up in my home office/den which is a fairly small room and almost square (~13.5' x 14' x 8') which make acoustics a real challenge. I have a small equipment rack in between the speakers, although the front of the speakers are about a foot in front of the front of the rack. The room doesn't allow much in the way of acoustic treatments on the side walls since there is a desk and windows on one side, and built in cabinets on the other wall (but that also means there is some degree of diffusion of the side wall reflections).

I have two 6' tall tube traps in the corners behind the speakers, as well as two 2'x2'x6" GIK bass trap/diffusers on the wall behind the speakers. I've also got three 2'x4'x4" absorbers with scatter plates behind the listening position (which unfortunately is right up against the rear wall). The floor is hardwood with a large area rug. I do have an ottoman in front of the couch, but no hard surfaces.

I have another room in the house (rec room) which I could take over as a listening room. I'd have to get rid of my pool table. :( This room is ~17' x 27' x 8'. Still not ideal because the width is almost twice the height, but much better dimensions than my current room. This room has very reflective acoustics which would have to be tamed - mostly painted cinder-block walls, travertine floor, and a fair amount of glass, but this is certainly doable. I'll have to think about this.

I've only had my current speakers for about 6 months, so my wife wouldn't be too happy if I replaced them any time soon. I should probably play around with speaker positioning some more. I initially tried moving them forward a few inches and didn't like the results, but I have to be honest that i haven't really spent a lot of time experimenting.
 
I'd mess around with speaker placement. I've used the Wilson and Sumiko Masters guidelines to good effect. Somewhat tedious to do but the results are worth all the effort.
 
I’m in the camp of appreciate what you have and maximize its potential.

It takes an all out assault, not so much in terms of expense but rather working with what you have so your in the best position using time and effort.

Look at all you cables and ensure nothing is running parallel to power cables unless it’s a 90 degree cross. Ensure all cables are routed best possible, wiped clean and reset each connection while ensuring no corrosion exists.

Ensure your best cable is from the wall to your distribution unless your direct into amps or other equipment.

Play with your speakers to get the right position and toe in.

If you have settings on your equipment, play with those to achieve the best general purpose.

Then rest and enjoy, while figuring out the best path if you have any desire to upgrade.




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This is all good advice. Thanks. I'll definitely have to spend some more time looking at speaker placement.

I think my cable layout is pretty good, but the conditioner I'm using doesn't have a removable power cord, and as a result, the cord is considerably longer than I need and is not optimally routed relative to one of my interconnects. I've considered opening it up to replace the cord, but I've also been thinking about trading it in on a PS Audio Regenerator. I have a solar system on my room and I think the system's inverter is dumping a lot of noise onto the power line since I've noticed the system sounds worse on sunny days.

Thanks again for your comments.
 
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