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  1. #51
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    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    I didn’t say I enjoy all music, but I do play albums I like all the way through. It’s hard for me to find a jazz album from the late 1950s through the early 1960s that I would want to skip a track on.
    Yup, just listened to Sonny Rollins’ Saxophone Colossus. What track could you skip!

    Ken
    "No summit worth climbing is easily attained."
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  2. #52
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    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpinist View Post
    Yup, just listened to Sonny Rollins’ Saxophone Colossus. What track could you skip!

    Ken

    None!
    Or you would deserve to be crucified!

    I seldom skip tracks, but when I don't like an album, I won't lose my time on it, and move on to something else quickly.
    Vivid Audio - Burmester - Hegel - Marantz - Oppo - Pioneer 60" - Wireworld

  3. #53
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    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpinist View Post
    I actually find that I become more engaged musically when I listen to an entire album or CD compared to jumping around to my favorite tracks. The music just seems to flow better.

    Ken
    in this one for me I do it different, because there are so many poor albums around with just 1 great song, a few ok, and all the others are ďroom cleanersĒ (music that you turn on your own party when you like to finish the event). From the collection of great ones on all different albums I make my own playlist and have fun with my own mixture.

  4. #54

    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    Quote Originally Posted by u-sound View Post
    HA-N1Z/2EX-S40

    this is the topmodel....looking at it myself
    This model is not available in Canada/US, we have to go with the H60 variant

  5. #55
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    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    yes, i just see, melco seem not to be a brand in usa.
    there is a dealer for melco in canada
    https://gramophone.mybigcommerce.com...sort=pricedesc
    i guess he would be able to get you whatever you want from melco. probably the new series will be in his shop soon anyway. he seems to discount the old one.

    havent heard the melcos myself. as per friends the middle model with hdd is very good....then again the topmodel with ssd is said to be the best server to date. melco is not just assembling, they are computermanufactor of ssd and made a special audio ssd. that differs a lot comared to pc ssd, noisewise.
    nagra cd & tube dac with psu , audionet humboldt, alexia2, odin, hms definitiva

  6. #56

    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    I own Melco so let me clear a couple things up. Melco is distributed by Luxman in the US, Gramophone is the Canadian Distributor. The SSD drives from Melco are licenced to another Manufacturer so they cannot be sold in the US or Canada, that is why we only get the 6TB spinning platter drive models. Trust me, I tried real hard to get the SSD variant but the Distributor could not convince Melco to send one, not even for "audition".

    The Melcos could use some improvements in their user interface but sonically they do some wonders. Its a combination of their specialized and optimized drives as well as their ethernet "purifier". My X1 sounded considerably better being fed by the Melco than being directly connected to my home router.

  7. #57
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    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    You can buy all the Melco gear you want from Underwood HiFi.

    https://www.underwoodhifi.com/products/melco
    Main - JVC QL-Y7/Denon DL-301 Mk II, Gold Note PH-10, Nuprime CDT-8, Auralic Aries G1, Aqua La Voce S3, Supratek Chardonnay, Van Alstine Vision SET-400, Reynaud Abscisse Jubilee, (2) Rythmik F12SE, Audio Envy IC's & PC's, Triode Wire Lab PC's, USB & SC's, PS Audio Stellar P3, PI Audio Uberbuss, Timbernation rack

    Family Room - Oppo UDP-203, PS Audio Directstream/Bridge II, Audia Flight FL Three S, Nola KO, (2) Rythmik F-12G, Audio Sensibility SC & IC's, Neotech PC's, SurgeX SA-1810

  8. #58
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    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    You can buy all the Melco gear you want from Underwood HiFi.

    https://www.underwoodhifi.com/products/melco
    the ssd is not listed.

    dznutz, that is very nasty. thx for the info.
    truly crazy
    nagra cd & tube dac with psu , audionet humboldt, alexia2, odin, hms definitiva

  9. #59

    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    I wouldn't say nasty, as even the standard drives are very quiet, just simply a reality when dealing with the Japanese. They're very protective of their technology.

  10. #60
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    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    you could order from another country if you want it very badly
    nagra cd & tube dac with psu , audionet humboldt, alexia2, odin, hms definitiva

  11. #61

    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    Sorry to everyone else but I didn’t have time to read all the responses. The BDA-3 is a good DAC but from my understanding achieves its forte in the analogue output with modest DACs, but move onto FPGA designs like the chord DAVE or dCS Bartok which are ‘resolvers’ par exception, and it takes resolution up to another level.

    Or if you want the rounded sound you may consider spending less to get what you like more - if you are comparing the analogue sound you get versus more analytica approach of digital. The ps audio directstream is a vinyl like dac. All these DACs I’ve reviewed.

    my problem, and it’s just me, is that you can get away with a lesser source on these types of DACs and need only a steamer or server like an innuos into a Dave to outcompete what vinyl can - simply on economics of having to buy cables, phono stage, and cartridges, then the TT. It’s the original reason cd and digital came along - that you can do more for less. So all power for loving your tt set up, explore with what digital has to offer nowadays and I definitely think you get more for money.

    ive sat their listening to pricey transports into DACs and sometimes less is more, but the dac is definetely not something to skimp on.not that you have with your Bryston, but if you were thinking of taking your digital up a notch. Hope my honesty helps.

  12. #62
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    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    Quote Originally Posted by 13th Note HiFi Reviews View Post
    Sorry to everyone else but I didn’t have time to read all the responses. The BDA-3 is a good DAC but from my understanding achieves its forte in the analogue output with modest DACs, but move onto FPGA designs like the chord DAVE or dCS Bartok which are ‘resolvers’ par exception, and it takes resolution up to another level.

    Or if you want the rounded sound you may consider spending less to get what you like more - if you are comparing the analogue sound you get versus more analytica approach of digital. The ps audio directstream is a vinyl like dac. All these DACs I’ve reviewed.

    my problem, and it’s just me, is that you can get away with a lesser source on these types of DACs and need only a steamer or server like an innuos into a Dave to outcompete what vinyl can - simply on economics of having to buy cables, phono stage, and cartridges, then the TT. It’s the original reason cd and digital came along - that you can do more for less. So all power for loving your tt set up, explore with what digital has to offer nowadays and I definitely think you get more for money.

    ive sat their listening to pricey transports into DACs and sometimes less is more, but the dac is definetely not something to skimp on.not that you have with your Bryston, but if you were thinking of taking your digital up a notch. Hope my honesty helps.
    May I ask what analog setup you have and what you have used for these reviews.
    thanks in advance.

  13. #63
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    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    Quote Originally Posted by 13th Note HiFi Reviews View Post
    Sorry to everyone else but I didn’t have time to read all the responses. The BDA-3 is a good DAC but from my understanding achieves its forte in the analogue output with modest DACs, but move onto FPGA designs like the chord DAVE or dCS Bartok which are ‘resolvers’ par exception, and it takes resolution up to another level.

    Or if you want the rounded sound you may consider spending less to get what you like more - if you are comparing the analogue sound you get versus more analytica approach of digital. The ps audio directstream is a vinyl like dac. All these DACs I’ve reviewed.

    my problem, and it’s just me, is that you can get away with a lesser source on these types of DACs and need only a steamer or server like an innuos into a Dave to outcompete what vinyl can - simply on economics of having to buy cables, phono stage, and cartridges, then the TT. It’s the original reason cd and digital came along - that you can do more for less. So all power for loving your tt set up, explore with what digital has to offer nowadays and I definitely think you get more for money.

    ive sat their listening to pricey transports into DACs and sometimes less is more, but the dac is definetely not something to skimp on.not that you have with your Bryston, but if you were thinking of taking your digital up a notch. Hope my honesty helps.

    Can you quantify your selection , What digital budget are we talking about to outperform analog TT ...

    Regards

  14. #64

    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    Quote Originally Posted by Alrainbow View Post
    May I ask what analog setup you have and what you have used for these reviews.
    thanks in advance.
    i use pmc speakers, Cyrus amp gear and DACs from Chord and others. But gear changes all the time. At the moment I have some atc scm40 actives, Jade 2 headphones from HIFiMan and a rme dac

  15. #65

    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    Can you quantify your selection , What digital budget are we talking about to outperform analog TT ...

    Regards
    too difficult a question for anyone to answer I’d say. But generally I think a digital system will outperform a tt system at same price as it’s easier to make, economies of scale etc.

    obviously people who have analogue won’t agree because it’s their preferred choice of audio.

  16. #66

    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    Quote Originally Posted by 13th Note HiFi Reviews View Post
    too difficult a question for anyone to answer Iíd say. But generally I think a digital system will outperform a tt system at same price as itís easier to make, economies of scale etc.

    obviously people who have analogue wonít agree because itís their preferred choice of audio.
    I donít think you have to have an analogue system to disagree with both, the question and the answer. Too simplistic question and an answer without a logical base.

    Why the question is flawed: You simply cannot set a price level to the point where a personal preference for one thing is superior to the personal preference for another thing.

    Why the answer is flawed: same as above.

    Whatís the proof? Even in case of two digital systems you could not say how much more you would have to pay for one system to be better than another. This is, as price is not an objective, but a rather arbitrary measure. There are 5K DACs, which are better than 10K DACs, and vice versa. Also, whether that actually is the case or not, varies based on personal preferences.

    Therefore, some might prefer the cheaper, others the more expensive DAC. You cannot argue about taste (you can, but it is not meaningful, as it leads nowhere). Similarly, for some a 5K turntable can be better than a 10 DAC, and vice versa. For some analog is the real deal, while others prefer digital. And yet again others simply think that is not a relevant question, as they enjoy both for different reasons.

    You can apply the same logic to many audiophile questions, tubes vs solid state, copper vs silver cables, sigma-delta vs ladder DACs, device footers vs no device footers etc.

    Most of what we are dealing with in audiophile topics is not scientific. Itís based on preferences or beliefs, rather than facts. Is the price of an audio toy justified or not? The truth is in the ears of the beholder, and the depth of their wallet.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    ďLifeís too short to listen to bad audio.Ē

    Big rig: Brinkmann Taurus DD TT + 12.1 arm + Lyra Etna Lambda SL MC + HRS M3X2/ Cardas Clear Beyond phono/ Stillpoints LPI/ Soulution 520 preamp with phono/ Synology NAS with Roon + HD Plex linear PSU + Shunyata HD/ AQ Vodka RJ45 + Aqvox Network Switch SE + AQ Diamond RJ45 into DAC/ Brinkmann Nyquist MK II/ Soulution 511/ WyWires Platinum ICs/ Semi-active Lansche Audio 4.2 LS/ Inakustik Reference LS 4004 AIR/ 2x Audioquest Thunder HD for LS/ Audioquest Niagara 5000/ Shunyata AlphaHC (x2)+Alpha+Alpha Analogue+Alpha Digital/ Finite Elemente Pagode/ Stillpoints Ultra SS.

    Small rig: Naim UnitiServe/ Curious USB/ Tidal/ Linn Klimax DS3/ Shunyata Power cable/ Pass Labs INT-60/ Acoustic Zen Silver Reference II/ HiD Diamond 8/ Harbeth 30.2 40th Anniversary/ Shunyata Venom EU7 & Venom 3 HD.

    HP rig: MacBookAir/ Tidal/ Auralic Gemini 2000/ Sbooster LPSU/ Audeze LCD-2 Classic + WyWires Red/ Shunyata HD/ Shunyata Hydra 2/ Shunyata Venom.

  17. #67
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    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    I don’t think one is better over the other but cheap analog beats much more exp digital at many times. I asked you for the simple reason we all need a reference to guide us.
    I have tape and vinyl and a few dacs. My server is Cust made.
    for me there are in a simplistic way 3 levels of dacs.
    1 being bottom 3 top tier
    all need a great source but level 1 while it may get better is marginal in being improved. This alone is directly against your view.
    level 2 is where a diamond in the Rough resides some when given a great source like the sound galleries shows an approach to level 3.
    Level 3 like dcs or msb and others require less exp sources but even these benefit from a great source like sound galleries. The reasons it’s Less so simple they spend plenty of technics in re creating the data stream inside the dac. For me it’s tricky of I try this externally in level 2 Dacs. I use idion master re clocker to get me close after my own cust server.
    my over all point is some stuff is on the bottom and stays there but of you keep changing out devices how do you ever get a clear picture of how new stuff sounds.
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  18. #68
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    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    Quote Originally Posted by 13th Note HiFi Reviews View Post
    too difficult a question for anyone to answer I’d say. But generally I think a digital system will outperform a tt system at same price as it’s easier to make, economies of scale etc.

    obviously people who have analogue won’t agree because it’s their preferred choice of audio.
    So you are saying a 5K digital will beat a 5K analog and continues the same as we scale up , 10k,20k,30K ,40k etc .. ??

    I would have to strongly disagree , which one sounds the best will of course be subjective but when done correctly analog will match and beat digital at most price points IMO, its mostly systems dependent thou , the higher the resolution , dynamics and full range capability of the system the better analog TT will sound vs digital ..

    This has been my experiences over time .....

    Regards

  19. #69

    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    Quote Originally Posted by Alrainbow View Post
    I donít think one is better over the other but cheap analog beats much more exp digital at many times.
    Case in point: there probably are as many people on the forum who agree with this statement, as there are Sharks who disagree.


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    ďLifeís too short to listen to bad audio.Ē

    Big rig: Brinkmann Taurus DD TT + 12.1 arm + Lyra Etna Lambda SL MC + HRS M3X2/ Cardas Clear Beyond phono/ Stillpoints LPI/ Soulution 520 preamp with phono/ Synology NAS with Roon + HD Plex linear PSU + Shunyata HD/ AQ Vodka RJ45 + Aqvox Network Switch SE + AQ Diamond RJ45 into DAC/ Brinkmann Nyquist MK II/ Soulution 511/ WyWires Platinum ICs/ Semi-active Lansche Audio 4.2 LS/ Inakustik Reference LS 4004 AIR/ 2x Audioquest Thunder HD for LS/ Audioquest Niagara 5000/ Shunyata AlphaHC (x2)+Alpha+Alpha Analogue+Alpha Digital/ Finite Elemente Pagode/ Stillpoints Ultra SS.

    Small rig: Naim UnitiServe/ Curious USB/ Tidal/ Linn Klimax DS3/ Shunyata Power cable/ Pass Labs INT-60/ Acoustic Zen Silver Reference II/ HiD Diamond 8/ Harbeth 30.2 40th Anniversary/ Shunyata Venom EU7 & Venom 3 HD.

    HP rig: MacBookAir/ Tidal/ Auralic Gemini 2000/ Sbooster LPSU/ Audeze LCD-2 Classic + WyWires Red/ Shunyata HD/ Shunyata Hydra 2/ Shunyata Venom.

  20. #70
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    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    I have the Mojo Audo Deja Vu server and Mystique V3 DAC. Package is about $11k.
    I have the STST Motus II TT and Allnic H1201 pre with a sound smith modded Denon cartridge. $11k. New Hana next week.

    I am consistently drawn to my digital. With the new root ram software package on the server, the realism is through the roof. But then I have a few records that are damb nice and really suck you in too.

    My dac is the entry level dac. The new un-advertised Mojo Audio EVO DAC for $6k to $15k depending on configuration is suppose to stomp on mine. The $9k is suppose to be hitting the sweet spot, so $15k would get you a stunning digital package. You will prefer many album on digital to what you find on vinyl. Then again, you will also have jems in vinyl that are magic. Can't be beat.

    Mojo Audio is PCM only. 24/192. No bologna filters and upsampling tricks. Just a specific focus on PCM as best as can be.

  21. #71
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    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    Thats a lot of Mojo .....

  22. #72

    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuoppis View Post
    I donít think you have to have an analogue system to disagree with both, the question and the answer. Too simplistic question and an answer without a logical base.

    Why the question is flawed: You simply cannot set a price level to the point where a personal preference for one thing is superior to the personal preference for another thing.

    Why the answer is flawed: same as above.

    Whatís the proof? Even in case of two digital systems you could not say how much more you would have to pay for one system to be better than another. This is, as price is not an objective, but a rather arbitrary measure. There are 5K DACs, which are better than 10K DACs, and vice versa. Also, whether that actually is the case or not, varies based on personal preferences.

    Therefore, some might prefer the cheaper, others the more expensive DAC. You cannot argue about taste (you can, but it is not meaningful, as it leads nowhere). Similarly, for some a 5K turntable can be better than a 10 DAC, and vice versa. For some analog is the real deal, while others prefer digital. And yet again others simply think that is not a relevant question, as they enjoy both for different reasons.

    You can apply the same logic to many audiophile questions, tubes vs solid state, copper vs silver cables, sigma-delta vs ladder DACs, device footers vs no device footers etc.

    Most of what we are dealing with in audiophile topics is not scientific. Itís based on preferences or beliefs, rather than facts. Is the price of an audio toy justified or not? The truth is in the ears of the beholder, and the depth of their wallet.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    i think you can set a personal preference level with price. Checking out all these many components you find out the better ones perform better with price at the preference you buy them for. So Chord for one thing, another dac for another preference. If you go around dCSí premises like I did and see all the ring dac boards lined up from one gen to the next, see the components that go into a non compromising dac, not some dac where they bolt in an output and fiddle with it with some off the shelf dac, you see how the thing is so damn good when you listen to it. Itís not as if anyone can disagree as itís at a totally different level of resolution to anything else much cheaper , like the chord Dave too with an m scaler.

    There are very few DACs built at half the price that will outcompete double the price DACs fitting them into brackets of preference or their USP on sound they produce. In fact Iíve yet to hear one.

    I know people like not to accept you get what you pay for in audio but it is one of the immutable truths in audio a lot of the time. Although I agree some DACs perform as good cheaper. Iím finding that with an RME DAC against a chord Qutest (which I own) but there is hundreds difference not thousands.

  23. #73

    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    So you are saying a 5K digital will beat a 5K analog and continues the same as we scale up , 10k,20k,30K ,40k etc .. ??

    I would have to strongly disagree , which one sounds the best will of course be subjective but when done correctly analog will match and beat digital at most price points IMO, its mostly systems dependent thou , the higher the resolution , dynamics and full range capability of the system the better analog TT will sound vs digital ..

    This has been my experiences over time .....

    Regards
    yes I think so as digital is so good for the money. You can get modest DACs like the schiit multibit ones being as resolving and dynamic as a tt system because you only need a modest source. With tt you need cables, tt, phono stage. A complex cartridge. 3 box with more interconnects rather than two. With digital you just need one box streamer/dac or two box dac and streamer so economies of scale, cost to make.

    ok you might not get same smooth sound with some cheaper DACs but if you spend more you do, and even cheaper DACs are good enough to resolve the system to a good level that makes it as good as what vinyl can achieve aside preference.

    also most DACs, even basic ones, are able to resolve more than the cheaper turntables. This was true when cd came on the scene as a digital dac and source and it’s even more the case nowadays with fpga, ladder DACs, multibit, ess sabre etc, and proliferation of digital tech.

  24. #74

    What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    A plain-Jane price comparison does not tell the entire truth. It really depends on what is up- and downstream. While itís different things that affect the quality of digital and analog, there are also common factors.

    Component - both, but analog has more moving parts

    Media quality - both, maybe analog even more so

    Power supply - both, maybe digital even more, as it also applies to signal transport (although I also have a 4K power supply unit for my turntable, which makes a huge difference)

    Grounding - both, equally for power, signal and components

    Signal conversion - both, complex in either case, D/A conversion, signal processing, filters, upsampling, bit rates and formats vs intricacies of groove tracking, azimuth, vertical angle, cart load, alignment, and mV level amplification

    Cables - both, different types of cables going into a DAC and different types of cables in the TT setup

    Isolation - both, but analog is more sensitive to vibrations, as this needs to be addressed relative to component, placement, tracking, motor, power supply, and even media

    System matching - both, if components do not harmonize the system will never yield a top performance

    Acoustics - both, usually the most neglected factor, a little of room acoustic treatment is often equivalent to doubling your system investment

    Ergo: A 10K vinyl system can easily beat a 20K digital system, when basics are not taken care of properly on the digital side. And exactly the same applies vice versa. Simple component investment does not get you very far in any case.

    The trouble is, the weakest link principle applies: everything can be top notch, but if only one key element is suboptimal the entire setup suffers.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    ďLifeís too short to listen to bad audio.Ē

    Big rig: Brinkmann Taurus DD TT + 12.1 arm + Lyra Etna Lambda SL MC + HRS M3X2/ Cardas Clear Beyond phono/ Stillpoints LPI/ Soulution 520 preamp with phono/ Synology NAS with Roon + HD Plex linear PSU + Shunyata HD/ AQ Vodka RJ45 + Aqvox Network Switch SE + AQ Diamond RJ45 into DAC/ Brinkmann Nyquist MK II/ Soulution 511/ WyWires Platinum ICs/ Semi-active Lansche Audio 4.2 LS/ Inakustik Reference LS 4004 AIR/ 2x Audioquest Thunder HD for LS/ Audioquest Niagara 5000/ Shunyata AlphaHC (x2)+Alpha+Alpha Analogue+Alpha Digital/ Finite Elemente Pagode/ Stillpoints Ultra SS.

    Small rig: Naim UnitiServe/ Curious USB/ Tidal/ Linn Klimax DS3/ Shunyata Power cable/ Pass Labs INT-60/ Acoustic Zen Silver Reference II/ HiD Diamond 8/ Harbeth 30.2 40th Anniversary/ Shunyata Venom EU7 & Venom 3 HD.

    HP rig: MacBookAir/ Tidal/ Auralic Gemini 2000/ Sbooster LPSU/ Audeze LCD-2 Classic + WyWires Red/ Shunyata HD/ Shunyata Hydra 2/ Shunyata Venom.

  25. #75
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    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    I sat with Ultrafast and Joe P at ultrafast house. We went back and forth with a record and digital. Ultra was switching between vinyl and streaming the same album.. Non of us could tell the difference. Non of us could select whether we were listening to vinyl or digital. It's all about the media. Not the type of gear its played on. Of course you have to implement it properly.

    There is no way I have seen to make a crappy source on one format sound better than a great source on another format. I have personally seen on 2 systems, with a very identical source, where its pretty much impossible to tell the difference between digital and vinyl. Your amp, preamp and speakers as well as cabling and power provide enough distortion and masking to make the differentiation even harder to discern.

    You CAN build a digital setup that will outperform your vinyl on many album. Not all. And vice versa. Many vinyl album will outperform your digital.

  26. #76
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    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp



    For instance,
    This Paul Simon is horrible on vinyl. It is thin and fatiguing. The digital 24/44.1 is much more harmonically rich and pleasant to enjoy.
    The Duke/Coleman is way better on vinyl. Body is just as thick and the horns are spectacular on vinyl. Much more alive, quick and real.
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  27. #77
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    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingrex View Post
    I sat with Ultrafast and Joe P at ultrafast house. We went back and forth with a record and digital. Ultra was switching between vinyl and streaming the same album.. Non of us could tell the difference. Non of us could select whether we were listening to vinyl or digital. It's all about the media. Not the type of gear its played on. Of course you have to implement it properly.

    There is no way I have seen to make a crappy source on one format sound better than a great source on another format. I have personally seen on 2 systems, with a very identical source, where its pretty much impossible to tell the difference between digital and vinyl. Your amp, preamp and speakers as well as cabling and power provide enough distortion and masking to make the differentiation even harder to discern.

    You CAN build a digital setup that will outperform your vinyl on many album. Not all. And vice versa. Many vinyl album will outperform your digital.
    If they both sounded the same there is some system masking taking place, a sonic signature so to speak ...


    Regards

  28. #78
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    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    Quote Originally Posted by 13th Note HiFi Reviews View Post
    yes I think so as digital is so good for the money. You can get modest DACs like the schiit multibit ones being as resolving and dynamic as a tt system because you only need a modest source. With tt you need cables, tt, phono stage. A complex cartridge. 3 box with more interconnects rather than two. With digital you just need one box streamer/dac or two box dac and streamer so economies of scale, cost to make.

    ok you might not get same smooth sound with some cheaper DACs but if you spend more you do, and even cheaper DACs are good enough to resolve the system to a good level that makes it as good as what vinyl can achieve aside preference.

    also most DACs, even basic ones, are able to resolve more than the cheaper turntables. This was true when cd came on the scene as a digital dac and source and it’s even more the case nowadays with fpga, ladder DACs, multibit, ess sabre etc, and proliferation of digital tech.
    This has not been my experience , a decent analog rig is only complex in setup , as very few understands or make the effort to set them up correctly, Vinyl is not as plug and play as digital for sure but no simple inexpensive digital will match a decent vinyl rig..

    My 2c

  29. #79
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    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    @KingRex ..

    Rex could you post a pic of your Turntable with the vertere arm would love to see it .! Also are you running the 103 direct or using an SUT ...?


    Regards

  30. #80

    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    I agree with your comments - any source can pretty much beat the other unless if it’s vhs. but just to qualify my comments as being digital at x price can outstrip vinyl at same price. Above anything it’s simple economics I feel.

  31. #81
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    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    You just miss the Point it’s not just price. My first table was a td 125 and denon 103d cart sme arm. Analog has a texture digital does not. Even bad analog is ok to play bad digital runs me out of the room.
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  32. #82
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    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    Get a Lumin X1 for digital.
    Bud

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  33. #83

    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    Quote Originally Posted by Alrainbow View Post
    You just miss the Point itís not just price. My first table was a td 125 and denon 103d cart sme arm. Analog has a texture digital does not. Even bad analog is ok to play bad digital runs me out of the room.
    That thinking is common but itís not true anymore. Some DACs donít sound digital at all. The DirectStream I tested from ps audio is a classic example or adding the right power supplies into dacs or just changing pre and power or choice of speakers. An ADE Dac I have atm too is a good example - the dcs too. These are far from brittle as is a conception about digital. The atc scm 40a I have Atm are as smooth with digital as others with analogue. In fact some people on the ps audio website say they thought this with the DirectStream ie they can change to digital. Sonic signature is rarely one component or just to do with formats in hifi.

    A lot of the thinking about digital is not trying things with the right DAC. Into right system an analogue system sounds as good as digital but itís about cost to get there.

  34. #84
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    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    I like ps audio as a company and owned the PW2 and updated it to the DS
    i sold it about two years ago it was a nice dac bjt in no way is that analog sounding. See this is just a marketing ploy that smooth is analog or it has an analog sound.
    analog is not smooth nor is it sleepy. If there is any similarity it’s easy to listen to being not hurting my head. Analog has layers , has details both micro and macro but it is also has a fast dynamic asent and decent line real music does very few dacs approach this kind of speed. Analog is not slow I’m fact it’s absurdly fast it’s just annoying like bad Digital can be.
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  35. #85
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    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    13th ,

    I can agree with you that many DACs today don't sound “digital bad” at all and some actually do start to sound very very natural like analog with digital benefits, making them standout but at a high cost , but and its a big but, i have not heard one regardless of cost that doesn't exhibit some sort of digital signature, digital noise so to speak. This is obvious when going from one to the other and really obvious at hifi shows, where going from a well setup analog room to a digital room , ringing is very evident , the really good digital has it less so, but its there , kinda like how some analog TT groove noise is audible to those sensitive to it but many find its less obtrusive due to its natural nature ...

    BTW ,

    I’m assuming your not using an analog reference along with your digital reference when comparing.



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  36. #86
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    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    BTW , Its not either or for me plenty benefits to both , but analog TT allows one to unlock the golden era of lost recordings no more. To experience the music is what this hobby is all about ..


    Regards

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    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    to quote rene l, from nagra:

    In 2017 I did play most of the time at shows some master tapes on Nagra T with tube tape head electronics and also turntable so analog sources play a lot about 80% of the time. But in 2018 with the new ClassicPSU on the HD DAC I play about 40% analog source and 60% digital. At the last RMAF in Denver we got 5 Best sound of show without turntable. That was just impossible before!​

    all i can say is YES !
    tube dac with psu is paradies of sound, never will i go back to phono.
    nagra cd & tube dac with psu , audionet humboldt, alexia2, odin, hms definitiva

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    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    Owe goodness. Another digital vs analog. Just throw away all your vinyl and steaming services. Get 10 tapes you like and listen to nothing else ever again. Accept another tape if you can afford it.

  39. #89
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    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    When someone says there digital is replacing there digital I’m suspect to was there analog setup well. Was it able to convey analog for what it is. ? Both formats can be very good. But to me there is no doubt that analog if setup well can be made to be above digital even if it’s twice the price easy
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  40. #90
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    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    Solid double down Al.

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    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    Rex at 63 I long ago left digital. It’s only two years I’m back In tape and vinyl. I know have great digital and my analog is at the start. I’m just being honest.
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  42. #92
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    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    What good do you think your doing anyone. Its the same toxic spew that ruins every thread it infects. I thought we were here to help people.

  43. #93
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    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    Rex there is two two types of help.
    one is hey help me make this better or make it work.
    the second is hey I need help with an agenda of this is what’s best
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  44. #94
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    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    Quote Originally Posted by u-sound View Post
    to quote rene l, from nagra:

    In 2017 I did play most of the time at shows some master tapes on Nagra T with tube tape head electronics and also turntable so analog sources play a lot about 80% of the time. But in 2018 with the new ClassicPSU on the HD DAC I play about 40% analog source and 60% digital. At the last RMAF in Denver we got 5 Best sound of show without turntable. That was just impossible before!​

    all i can say is YES !
    tube dac with psu is paradies of sound, never will i go back to phono.
    its the going back which moves the soul and shake the earth

    BTW i would much prefer to use digital if doing show demo’s , very difficult to get analog TT setup correctly for show conditions, it also appears his Digital best his tapes too ...


    Regards

  45. #95
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    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingrex View Post
    Owe goodness. Another digital vs analog. Just throw away all your vinyl and steaming services. Get 10 tapes you like and listen to nothing else ever again. Accept another tape if you can afford it.
    The thread ask the question , analog vs digital , any suggestions on how much to spend maybe this is a bit much for you Rex..

    let the adults continue nuh ..!

  46. #96
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    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    The thread ask the question , analog vs digital , any suggestions on how much to spend maybe this is a bit much for you Rex..

    let the adults continue nuh ..!
    The ask was not really for an analog vs digital debate. It was merely an ask of what digital front end would surpass my current analog front end.

    I come to realize that it’s not like comparing apples to apples and that they both offer different advantages and disadvantages.
    Paul



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  47. #97
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    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    Why are you directing this at me Wayne. My interpretation of Al's comments was Al to say no digital can compare to Analog. I firmly disagree. Earlier I stated and included an example where digital and at what level shines compared to analog. A setup that would pair well with Audiophilehi VPI vinyl. I never looked at this thread as digital vs Analog. I tried to explain my opinion that at all comparable price points, both formats will outperform one another dependant on the source material. Provided the same attention to detail in the setup of the equipment has been undertaken.

    I personally take offence to the whole concept that somehow vinyl is a magic petroleum product that only it can unlock the magic of music. Thats crap talk. Thats the same old digital vs vinyl dribble I find polluting so many other threads.

    I gave a good example of an $11k digital setup that kicks butt (imo). Fwiw, my setup is all tube with open baffle horn speakers. I'm sure the Mojo gear will voice different, to some degree with ported box speakers and SS amps. Maybe, maybe not. System synergy is very apparent between speakers and amps, and preamps and amplifiers. I'm not experienced enough to understand the impact of sources to the amplification chain. I would assume a flat smooth setup migh benefit from a slightly brighter, snappy source. And vice versa. A fast and treble forward might benefit from a slightly darker more relaxed source.

    Due to the "Fact" that there are many members that love their digital front end playback equipment, I included, support the idea digital can outperform vinyl when properly implemented and meeting the subjecrive taste of the user. We all have our personal preferences. We seek different ends from our equipment. Al likes thousands and thousands or watts and massive line array speakers. I like a few watts and a horn. Radically different sound, but both pleasing. Personal preference will ultimately determine whether you can implement a digital setup and like it. And the type of music you listen too is a huge factor too.

  48. #98
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    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    Quote Originally Posted by Audiophilehi View Post
    The ask was not really for an analog vs digital debate. It was merely an ask of what digital front end would surpass my current analog front end.

    I come to realize that it’s not like comparing apples to apples and that they both offer different advantages and disadvantages.
    Its indirectly and directly comparing the two as you want the digital to surpass your analog and since your adding digital its not an either or which is exactly what I'm saying , it shouldn't be. What I'm arguing against is the notion that good analog is uber expensive and good digital is not , my take is you need really good digital to match and surpass analog , unless the analog was not really properly setup or good to begin with , not necessarily an either or , as in one being better...

    Rex’s explanation of album and download selection is spot on when comparing , its best of best and not necessarily everything analog or digital is gonna be better ...


    Regards

  49. #99
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    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    @Rex ,

    AlRainbow is just giving his opinion and he feels analog is superior no different than those who feel digital is superior , all opinions valid , my take is any serious audiophile should have both it gives you plenty options and major references as to where one’s setup is going or lacking, not to mention the recordings it opens you up to ..

    Agree with you also , that this is very system and music dependent , analog requires wide bandwith speakers and plenty headroom power to work vs digital, then there’s the you are there vs they are here recordings and listeners ..

    plenty choices ..!


    Regards

  50. #100
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    Re: What Music Server and Dac Will Out Perform My Turntable and Phono Preamp

    I had to sell my Basis TT with Basis arm and Benz Micro Glider cartridge. My vinyl was all cleaned via my ultrasound cleaner. I had a specially made isolation shelf. Cables were Audioquest Niagara into the top Aesthetix Rhea phono stage. The rest of the system is Ayre AX5/20, Vandersteen Quatro's. I have all Hurricane interconnects and William Tell bi wire speaker cables.

    I have been using The Memory Player for Laufer Technique for a few years now. Mark and Sam built in a custom DAC for me. I sold my Ayre QX5/20 DAC/streamer and feel that this DAC is much better. I also owned Empirical Audio's top DAC at the time with all the cap upgrades etc...

    I feel strongly that The Memory Player/DAC is by far the best digital I've ever heard. My buddy has the same player, but used the Davinci mk2 (the most current one as he just got it back after it broke and he has all the newest upgrades). This player is better than any vinyl (not reel to reel) that I've heard under 50k or so. I took it into a local dealer awhile back and we put it in his top system that was the 60k Wilson (not sure of the model name) with D'agistino electronics. It was the AMG table set up. Cart was Benz Gullwing if I recall correctly.

    Three of us chose The Memory Player. They nailed lowering all three jitters that they use to measure. They keep upgrading software and install it remotely. I can't physically use analog as it's too much up and down and even cleaning properly is tiring for me with the MS. I had no choice, but I'm glad I got in touch with Sam (owner and he only lives 30 minutes away) as he's a great guy and is using my player as an experimental one. He's got brand new cases (they are stunning with a large video display and a slot to rip. You can pick any auto color or various colored anodized cases) and is upgrading the DAC again.

    I never thought I'd say that digital was as good and better in some cases as analog, but unless you hear this player/dac set up, you won't understand as we've had digital since 83 or so and 90% still isn't what it should be by now.
    System:
    Vandersteen Quatro CT
    Ayre AX5/20
    The Memory Player with built in DAC and headphone amp built in on order
    AQ Niagara 1000 power device
    Audioquest William Tell bi wire speaker cable
    Wireworld 8 optical cable into the Empirical Audio Synchro Mesh from the TV and Blueray to reclock
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    Empire Ears Phantom CIEM's
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