What is the hot new DAC now?

**Mike** · May 29, 2017, 11:41 AM

What is the hot new DAC now? I heard the Aries at Munich a few times. Meh. I heard the TotalDAC stack. Good. MSB was sounding great. DCS too.

The new Auralic stack was very appealing (a more budget friendly DCS-like approach).

In my store, the Berk REF2 (with MQA coming VERY soon) remains how, ditto with the Chord DAVE and the new Esoteric Grandioso K1 is a terrific all-in-one.

The Ayre QX5 Twenty and Bryston BDA-3 remain great options in their price point.

The Lumin A1 remains one of my favorite all in one boxes.

I got to see the new T+A MP3100HV at Munich. Nice!

What's on your list?

**Randy Myers** · May 29, 2017, 12:03 PM

I hear the Lampi's are pretty great, but never heard one...

I am really loving my new Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2v2SE... best sounding DAC I have ever heard. I have had 10 different DACs; granted, none of the extreme ones like many you mentioned, but this new ESS9038 Pro based DAC is superb.

**Mike** · May 29, 2017, 12:19 PM

The Lampi's ARE great. Talk about staying power in the land of digital.

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**Alpinist** · May 29, 2017, 12:57 PM

Aqua Hifi Formula and La Scala Mk2
Nagra HD and Classic
MSB Select, Reference, Diamond & Sig. DAC V

Ken

**Joe P** · May 29, 2017, 01:04 PM

https://www.shenzhenaudio.com/l-k-s-...o-decoder.html
https://www.vinshineaudio.com/produc...-venus-r2r-dac
https://kitsunehifi.com/product/springdacgreen/

**bikeman71** · May 29, 2017, 01:04 PM

I am blown away by the T + A DAC8 DSD. After Roon went to 512 capability, I went out and bought a PC with the necessary muscle...the results are not subtle. Good recordings become great, and great recordings are just unreal.

This change represents the biggest upgrade in a single component I've ever been a part of. I'll do a more thorough review once my longer USB cable arrives and I can get the rack neatly situated for pictures.

Thanks to Mike for a flawless transaction.

**Kuoppis** · May 29, 2017, 01:21 PM

I liked the Meitner DA2 quite a bit on the demos I saw in Munich.

Can't get it for pocket change though...

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**asiufy** · May 29, 2017, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by Alpinist

Aqua Formula
Ken

People really need to listen to what the Aqua line of DACs can do, not only the Formula. The $3k La Voce is incredible, and not only with the $16k SGM...

Curious folks are welcome to check out the SGM + Aqua Formula combination in one of our rooms at the LA Show next weekend (#s 575/579)

cheers,
alex

**Alpinist** · May 29, 2017, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by bikeman71

I am blown away by the T + A DAC8 DSD. After Roon went to 512 capability, I went out and bought a PC with the necessary muscle...the results are not subtle. Good recordings become great, and great recordings are just unreal.

This change represents the biggest upgrade in a single component I've ever been a part of. I'll do a more thorough review once my longer USB cable arrives and I can get the rack neatly situated for pictures.

Thanks to Mike for a flawless transaction.

Bikeman,

What PC are you driving it with?

Ken

**bikeman71** · May 29, 2017, 02:09 PM

iBuypower liquid cooled BB931.

It has the i7-7700k...

**Devg** · May 29, 2017, 04:21 PM

Merging NADAC ?

Network attached DACs are gaining popularity these days....

**CPP** · May 29, 2017, 04:43 PM

Aqua Hifi La Scala MkII

PS Audio DirectStream Jr

Metrum Acoustic line of DACS: The Pavane and the new Adagio,

Holo Audio Spring DAC Level 3

**nonesup** · May 29, 2017, 05:48 PM

Wadax Atlantis
SURPRISING!

**kzhtoo** · May 29, 2017, 06:11 PM

Soon to be released Ayre QX-8. At least this is the price point I'm contemplating at the moment. Last time I churned out for then top of the line Chord QBD76HD, it lasted being that for 2-3 years. Not sure I want to follow the same path again. But of course, interested in DAVE as the natural successor and as a safe bet. However, only for the right price.

**sheltie1** · May 29, 2017, 06:15 PM

Only spent a few days with it so far, but the Stellar Gain Cell DAC from PS Audio is silly good for it's price point.

**Jack** · May 29, 2017, 07:29 PM

kzhtoo

Don't know what you consider the "right price" for the DAVE but their is one on AC for $7700.

mauidan · May 29, 2017, 07:53 PM

Modwright Oppo UDP-205.

**Mechnutt** · May 29, 2017, 11:54 PM

Originally Posted by bikeman71

I am blown away by the T + A DAC8 DSD. After Roon went to 512 capability, I went out and bought a PC with the necessary muscle...the results are not subtle. Good recordings become great, and great recordings are just unreal.

This change represents the biggest upgrade in a single component I've ever been a part of. I'll do a more thorough review once my longer USB cable arrives and I can get the rack neatly situated for pictures.

Thanks to Mike for a flawless transaction.

I second this. I heard this DAC at my friends house using HQ player at 512. Just awesome.

**Phil A** · May 30, 2017, 12:26 AM

Originally Posted by Kuoppis

I liked the Meitner DA2 quite a bit on the demos I saw in Munich.

Can't get it for pocket change though...

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I can only imagine. I have the DAC 2X with the new digital board (8xDSD) and it sounds wonderful (only have the version 2 with the new digital board for a bit over a month). I have an MA-1 in a secondary system. I like that too. Have not done the new board in it and not sure I'll end up doing it.

**Ctsooner** · May 30, 2017, 10:22 AM

Under 2k- Ayre Codex
Under 12K- Ayre QX5/20 (own) (honorable mention Empirical Audio ODSE/SE)
Under 15k- Brinkmann
Under 20k- TotalDac
Price no object- Davinci Light Harmonic mk2

Need to hear the Empirical Audio ODSX without the cap upgrades. Was told by two who own it that it's killer. I owned the ODSE/SE for a few years and LOVED it.

I have heard some of the tubed DAC's, but I'm no longer a tube guy, so I can't comment on them properly. JMHO

**kzhtoo** · May 30, 2017, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by Jack

kzhtoo

Don't know what you consider the "right price" for the DAVE but their is one on AC for $7700.

Thanks, Jack. But where is AC?

**Mechnutt** · May 30, 2017, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by kzhtoo

Thanks, Jack. But where is AC?

AC is the Audiocircles forum

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=109.0

**Kuoppis** · May 30, 2017, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by Ctsooner

Under 2k- Ayre Codex
Under 12K- Ayre QX5/20 (own) (honorable mention Empirical Audio ODSE/SE)
Under 15k- Brinkmann
Under 20k- TotalDac
Price no object- Davinci Light Harmonic mk2

Have you heard the Brinkmann, is it really that good?

I mean, the guy is like a million years old and does not have any prior experience whatsoever in digital (since the Zenith in 1986 that is).

It would be possible if he has just bought the whole thing and simply slapped his brand on it. As he did with the turntables.

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**Ctsooner** · May 30, 2017, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by Kuoppis

Have you heard the Brinkmann, is it really that good?

I mean, the guy is like a million years old and does not have any prior experience whatsoever in digital.

It would be possible if he has just bought the whole thing and simply slapped his brand on it. As he did with the turntables.

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Do you hate him that much? He brought in the right engineers to put it together. Have I heard it? Many times, yes. Mostly with MQA which it does a great job on. I'm not sure if it's full MQA or just the first fold like many of them. I think the question was 'what is your favorite DAC' or something like that. In that price range it has sounded very good with a few systems.

**Ctsooner** · May 30, 2017, 03:07 PM

Intersting...I spoke with someone to see if Helmut designs his own tables, arms and cartridge. I was told that he designs his own cart and has Benz make them for him to his specs. I own and love Benz. He designs all his own parts. Please show where I can see that he just slaps his brand on it, as you said with his TT's. Thanks. waiting for your response.

**Kuoppis** · May 30, 2017, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by Ctsooner

Do you hate him that much? He brought in the right engineers to put it together. Have I heard it? Many times, yes. Mostly with MQA which it does a great job on. I'm not sure if it's full MQA or just the first fold like many of them. I think the question was 'what is your favorite DAC' or something like that. In that price range it has sounded very good with a few systems.

No whatsoever negative feelings, I don't know the guy. And I do love his Bardo turntable design.

It's just I do live in Germany and here he is known for rather good analogue designs which he sketched and someone else designed and built for him, to be sold under Brinkman brand. He has however never released a digital product before.

So, outperforming e.g. Charles Hansen, who has been a leader in the area for more than a decade, I just find hard to believe. If he is however using someone else's design, who has more experience in digital, then the product could be that good. With only a few good MQA designs available so far, it is quite a simple thing to figure out who's design it might be.

In general I would however argue, that just a higher price point does not necessarily mean the products being better.

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**Kuoppis** · May 30, 2017, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by Ctsooner

Intersting...I spoke with someone to see if Helmut designs his own tables, arms and cartridge. I was told that he designs his own cart and has Benz make them for him to his specs. I own and love Benz. He designs all his own parts. Please show where I can see that he just slaps his brand on it, as you said with his TT's. Thanks. waiting for your response.

That's correct, similar thing to the Benz agreement. Hence it could be possible the DAC arrangement is also similar. But the 'table designer is not in the business of offering turntables himself. He just builds precision stuff in Baden-Württemberg.

But this is no secret in the industry, so sorry if I'm not really spilling any beans here. You might want to dig in deeper if you want, but don't expect me to get involved

.

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**KeithR** · May 30, 2017, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by Kuoppis

That's correct, similar thing to the Benz agreement. Hence it could be possible the DAC arrangement is also similar. But the 'table designer is not in the business of offering turntables himself. He just builds precision stuff in Baden-Württemberg.

But this is no secret in the industry, so sorry if I'm not really spilling any beans here. You might want to dig in deeper if you want, but don't expect me to get involved

.

And most people think Alon Wolf designs Magico...

Brinkmann is definitely new to the DAC game, but so are 10 other companies every year!

I edited my Ayre comment. Probably was unnecessary.

**Kuoppis** · May 30, 2017, 09:43 PM

Originally Posted by KeithR

And most people think Alon Wolf designs Magico.

...spoke to Yair Tammam in Munich, very nice guy. But I think he is a Magico employee.

The Brinkmann 'table case was more like ODM, which is very common e.g. in the computer industry, but maybe less so in high end audio. But that said, I think quite a few audio companies source components, such as DAC modules or DAC chips, from other manufacturers. Also incremental improvement, using a Dual-invented direct drive principle and optimizing it, is a commonly applied engineering approach.

For music lovers it's the end-result that counts: IMHO the Brinkmann 'tables are really good, I particularly like the Bardo (not even his top model). When I auditioned it I was really impressed.

And hopefully the Brinkmann Nyquist DAC is the same (just to get back to the original topic). The ES9018S chip is for sure good, but the architecture was introduced in 2009, so there might be use for the replaceable DAC module feature rather sooner than later.

PS: I was also surprised to find out that he actually introduced one DAC in 1986 called Zenith, but no follow-ups after that until now.

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**CPP** · May 31, 2017, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by Kuoppis

...spoke to Yair Tammam in Munich, very nice guy. But I think he is a Magico employee.

The Brinkmann 'table case was more like ODM, which is very common e.g. in the computer industry, but maybe less so in high end audio. But that said, I think quite a few audio companies source components, such as DAC modules or DAC chips, from other manufacturers. Also incremental improvement, using a Dual-invented direct drive principle and optimizing it, is a commonly applied engineering approach.

For music lovers it's the end-result that counts: IMHO the Brinkmann 'tables are really good, I particularly like the Bardo (not even his top model). When I auditioned it I was really impressed.

And hopefully the Brinkmann Nyquist DAC is the same (just to get back to the original topic). The ES9018S chip is for sure good, but the architecture was introduced in 2009, so there might be use for the replaceable DAC module feature rather sooner than later.

PS: I was also surprised to find out that he actually introduced one DAC in 1986 called Zenith, but no follow-ups after that until now.

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The way new DAC chips are being invented, just hang on, our current DACS will be obsolete before we know it.

And then we will be doing this thread all over again, and again and again.

**Mike** · May 31, 2017, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by CPP

The way new DAC chips are being invented, just hang on, our current DACS will be obsolete before we know it.

And then we will be doing this thread all over again, and again and again.

This is a great topic for a thread.

**Ctsooner** · May 31, 2017, 09:59 AM

Thanks for the info on Brinkmann. I too LOVE the Bardo. I love Basis and it was in my price range. To me, those are two great TT's.

As for the Nyquist being better than my QX5/20...No, it's not. It's just in the discussion of being a highly musical DAC that is well built, but a strong company. Only one of the dealers I buy from sell the Brinkmann gear, but it's new to them. I heard it there when they brought it in for audition and then at another dealer when I was traveling.

I honestly feel that for my money, the Ayre is a GREAT value. Both the Codex for 2k and the QX5 to me can't be beaten by anything near their price ranges. I've heard the QX5 with many different servers too as that's critical for DAC's.

I'm sure Mike will share that the DAC/Server combo needs to match up. I've heard some great DAC's with great servers sound so so. Still good, but not great. Digital is so tricky to match at times for many reasons. I'm assuming the clocking/jitter thing is the biggest part, but I listen, I don't design

lol..... Some really nice choices in DACs now at all price ranges.

**Kuoppis** · May 31, 2017, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by CPP

The way new DAC chips are being invented, just hang on, our current DACS will be obsolete before we know it.

And then we will be doing this thread all over again, and again and again.

And how spot on you are

.

But I think it is actually worse, we have done it before and will do it again. Scary how close that is to the medical definition of insanity.

It also is one of the reasons why I am so happy with the Meitner choice: introduced in 2011 it is still current, with the latest upgrade option to x5 DSD up-sampling just officially released at the LA show I think.

Long live FPGAs

.

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**Kuoppis** · May 31, 2017, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by Ctsooner

I honestly feel that for my money, the Ayre is a GREAT value. Both the latter Codex for 2k and the QX5 to me can't be beaten by anything near their price ranges. I've heard the QX5 with many different servers too as that's critical for DAC's.

I do have the Codex in my summerhouse set and have not been thinking about changing DACs ever since, after I putting it into the system.

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**CPP** · May 31, 2017, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by Kuoppis

And how spot on you are

.

But I think it is actually worse, we have done it before and will do it again. Scary how close that is to the medical definition of insanity.

It also is one of the reasons why I am so happy with the Meitner choice: introduced in 2011 it is still current, with the latest upgrade option to x5 DSD up-sampling just officially released at the LA show I think.

Long live FPGAs

.

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I think the real secret with this ever changing DAC world, is a manufacturer that builds an upgradeable dac, be it firmware or an offered hardware upgrade by sending the unit in, or even a modular DAC where you just unplug a card and enter the new card, reboot the unit and bingo. Upgradability has to be the key

**Ctsooner** · May 31, 2017, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by CPP

I think the real secret with this ever changing DAC world, is a manufacturer that builds an upgradeable dac, be it firmware or an offered hardware upgrade by sending the unit in, or even a modular DAC where you just unplug a card and enter the new card, reboot the unit and bingo. Upgradability has to be the key

I agree with you. I also feel that it's difficult to buy from a company where it's basically a one man show. There are many and I owned an Empirical Audio DAC, but as great as Steve is as a designer/builder, he's going to retire soonish I assume and then what happens when the DAC blows up etc... I got the Ayre for the SQ, but also because they upgrade the firmware and will eventually offer any hardware upgrades in the future and they won't gouge us. They kept the 9 relevant for over 7 years. That's an amazing thing in the audio world. Most just keep coming out with mk 2,3 and new models over a 7 year span. Once they figure out they have maxed their market, it's time to change a few things and even the box and say it's a new model and make folks want to trade in, sell and buy new rather than offer an upgrade like Vandersteen and Ayre do. I'm sure there are plenty more who also offer them, but I own these two lines so I know the policy. Things always keep changing, but not always for the better

....

**KeithR** · May 31, 2017, 01:38 PM

To answer the original question, isn't the Aqua Formula the "hot" dac?

**wisnon** · May 31, 2017, 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by CPP

I think the real secret with this ever changing DAC world, is a manufacturer that builds an upgradeable dac, be it firmware or an offered hardware upgrade by sending the unit in, or even a modular DAC where you just unplug a card and enter the new card, reboot the unit and bingo. Upgradability has to be the key

The secret to good Dac-ing is NOT the chips or one specific tech. Chipping is fools gold.

Its about the total implementation of the thing and the future will be more about the integration of the source and Dacfrom a greenfield perspective. Yeah, I have some insider insight from an ANALOG designer pal. Materials, optimized pathways, approptiate protocols, etc. Many things kill the perfection and brute force engineering based on current paradigms and dogma seem NOT to be the way forward to nirvana.
My 2 cents.

**wisnon** · May 31, 2017, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by Ctsooner

I agree with you. I also feel that it's difficult to buy from a company where it's basically a one man show. There are many and I owned an Empirical Audio DAC, but as great as Steve is as a designer/builder, he's going to retire soonish I assume and then what happens when the DAC blows up etc... I got the Ayre for the SQ, but also because they upgrade the firmware and will eventually offer any hardware upgrades in the future and they won't gouge us. They kept the 9 relevant for over 7 years. That's an amazing thing in the audio world. Most just keep coming out with mk 2,3 and new models over a 7 year span. Once they figure out they have maxed their market, it's time to change a few things and even the box and say it's a new model and make folks want to trade in, sell and buy new rather than offer an upgrade like Vandersteen and Ayre do. I'm sure there are plenty more who also offer them, but I own these two lines so I know the policy. Things always keep changing, but not always for the better

....

On the contrary, like most great breakthroughs, it will be the ONE man/woman who will shift the paradigm.

The revolution will most likely come from there than from the big consensus team.

**bonzo** · May 31, 2017, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by KeithR

To answer the original question, isn't the Aqua Formula the "hot" dac?

The two people who have compared Aqua Formula and Lampi are Mike, who preferred the Aqua, and Shakti on WBF, who does regular workshops in Cologne and rated Aqua LA Scala > Big 7 > formula > GG (rest of his system is YG Anat, Zingali speakers, many amplifiers including some of the best SETs, and a recent Micro Seiki 8000 mk II). But yes it is hot for sure. And I am glad people are shifting away from the likes of Esoteric and dCS. They have had their time and have failed to scale up performance and scale down the price.

**Ctsooner** · May 31, 2017, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by Ctsooner
I agree with you. I also feel that it's difficult to buy from a company where it's basically a one man show. There are many and I owned an Empirical Audio DAC, but as great as Steve is as a designer/builder, he's going to retire soonish I assume and then what happens when the DAC blows up etc... I got the Ayre for the SQ, but also because they upgrade the firmware and will eventually offer any hardware upgrades in the future and they won't gouge us. They kept the 9 relevant for over 7 years. That's an amazing thing in the audio world. Most just keep coming out with mk 2,3 and new models over a 7 year span. Once they figure out they have maxed their market, it's time to change a few things and even the box and say it's a new model and make folks want to trade in, sell and buy new rather than offer an upgrade like Vandersteen and Ayre do. I'm sure there are plenty more who also offer them, but I own these two lines so I know the policy. Things always keep changing, but not always for the better ....

Originally Posted by wisnon

On the contrary, like most great breakthroughs, it will be the ONE man/woman who will shift the paradigm.

The revolution will most likely come from there than from the big consensus team.

I surly may, but I was talking more about what makes a smart buy today. I was discussing the problem with purchasing from the smaller company. I also think that for many of us, we don't like chasing the DAC of the day and like the idea of knowing we will get software and hardware updates as they become available etc.. and it won't cost the loss of our current DAC and purchase of a new one.

As you know from the AG thread, Matt and I have been having long in depth conversations about servers and where that is heading. I believe that's what you also said in your post above. That can't be lost on folks as you hit the nail on the head. It's probably best for another thread, unless folks want to talk about it here. Servers are going in so many different directions.

**mresseguie** · June 18, 2017, 04:12 PM

I have not heard any of the four DACs, so I cannot comment on their sound. However, I have recently been reading up on the Denafrips DACs from China. The Singapore based distributor is a guy named Alvin. I have contacted him about an audition. I'm undecided if I want to try the Pontus or the Venus DAC.

Let's see if the link works now that this is my tenth post.
Sigh....No.

Michael

**mresseguie** · June 18, 2017, 04:12 PM

https://www.vinshineaudio.com

**Joe P** · June 18, 2017, 11:09 PM

https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2017/...reference-dac/

**Mike Lavigne** · June 19, 2017, 12:07 AM

Originally Posted by jap

https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2017/...reference-dac/

I heard the new MSB Reference dac at the L.A. Show 2 weeks ago in the same system as the MSB Select II, an hour apart.

they are cut from the same cloth, but different in degrees. the MSB Reference dac is very, very good.

I ended up buying the Select II.

**Mrppv** · June 19, 2017, 09:17 PM

The Schiit Yggdrasil was hot and new when it appeared last year, but maybe it still is, as just earlier this month it got a rave review from Robert Harley.

**Alpinist** · June 19, 2017, 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne

I heard the new MSB Reference dac at the L.A. Show 2 weeks ago in the same system as the MSB Select II, an hour apart.

they are cut from the same cloth, but different in degrees. the MSB Reference dac is very, very good.

I ended up buying the Select II.

Mike,

I think the biggest difference between the Select II DAC and the Reference DAC is not the doubling of the DAC modules from four to eight but the sophistication of the Select II DAC's variable linestage. This is the main reason that the Select II DAC consistently sounds better being run directly into the amplifiers rather than with a high quality preamp in the signal chain.

Ken

**Mike Lavigne** · June 20, 2017, 12:07 AM

Originally Posted by Alpinist

Mike,

I think the biggest difference between the Select II DAC and the Reference DAC is not the doubling of the DAC modules from four to eight but the sophistication of the Select II DAC's variable linestage. This is the main reason that the Select II DAC consistently sounds better being run directly into the amplifiers rather than with a high quality preamp in the signal chain.

Ken

Ken,

you could be right, but I tend to think it's more that (1) the additional output of the 8 DAC modules per channel allow for the elimination of the analog output stage, (2) the lower distortion of the additional DAC modules, and (3) the added solidity of the higher build standard and more exotic power supply.

if one has a top flight active preamp then you are going to be able to neutralize the internal passive line stage advantage. I would expect in my system using the dart pre with both the Select II and the Reference the Select II would still be clearly better. and at this point I 'believe' that the dart pre has a better line stage than the one resident in the Select II (but we are still early in the game and at some point I may be able to test this idea).

my opinion is also that a tubed line stage will have a hard time competing with the internal line stage of the Select II, since those tubes become an artifact in the way of the astonishing inherent purity of the Select II. the dart pre does not have that issue. there are not many sources of any kind, and maybe none other, that can make a demand on a line stage for transparency like the Select II.

that is just my 2 cents.

**Alpinist** · June 20, 2017, 12:26 AM

Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne

Ken,

you could be right, but I tend to think it's more that (1) the additional output of the 8 DAC modules per channel allow for the elimination of the analog output stage, (2) the lower distortion of the additional DAC modules, and (3) the added solidity of the higher build standard and more exotic power supply.

if one has a top flight active preamp then you are going to be able to neutralize the internal passive line stage advantage. I would expect in my system using the dart pre with both the Select II and the Reference the Select II would still be clearly better. and at this point I 'believe' that the dart pre has a better line stage than the one resident in the Select II.

my opinion is also that a tubed line stage will have a hard time competing with the internal line stage of the Select II, since those tubes become an artifact in the way of the astonishing inherent purity of the Select II. the dart pre does not have that issue.

that is just my 2 cents.

Mike,

You may be right. Have you tried running directly from the Select II DAC to your Dart 458 monoblocks? A direct comparison with and without your Dart pre would be an interesting exercise. Vince claims the Select II's variable linestage has so few components in its signal path that the addition of any preamp would result in a degradation of sound quality.

Best,
Ken

**Devg** · June 20, 2017, 12:28 AM

PS Audio DS Dac with the latest Huron firmware. Its a brand new DAC released a week back that can easily take up on far most costlier ones in the market today....

Thread: What is the hot new DAC now?