Thread: The Upgrade Company's Oppo mods?

Originally Posted by Bodhi

Dave, I'm with mep on this. If I were looking for a 2nd hand Pass, Dartzeel, Vitus or Gryphon component for example, if the component had been modded in any way (with the possible exception of a factory upgrade module), that would be a huge red flag for me and I would walk away. Manufacturers like Vitus design their gear with modular construction and offer field-upgradeable upgrade modules when available, however they are an exception.

Hi Bodhi,

I understand what you are saying. However, there are folks out there who will buy a piece of gear that has been modified. We're all different. Like I mentioned in the beginning, if a modded product is not your thing, no worries, just move on to something else.

Thanks,
Dave

Originally Posted by Steve

...TUG is a scam.

How does someone make a comment like this, if they don't have any direct experience?? You seem to have the intent to discredit TUC. I personally have zero respect and don't give any validity to your comment.

Dave

The 3 other people joining this forum to post on this thread made a total of 4 posts over 1 month in 2013 and disappeared. Suspicious, no?
thezaks, you join a thread dormant for 18 months to make a 1000 word post defending TUC.
If you're around next year, having made numerous posts on other matters, I guess you'll be owed an apology. I'm betting against it.

Originally Posted by thezaks

Hi Bodhi,

I understand what you are saying. However, there are folks out there who will buy a piece of gear that has been modified. We're all different. Like I mentioned in the beginning, if a modded product is not your thing, no worries, just move on to something else.

Thanks,
Dave

Hi Dave,

You're right. When I replied I had ultra high end gear in mind (typical me, lol! ). Fyi, I heavily modded my Ayon CD-5s which is a much more expensive player. But because I had my player modded by a very reputable high end audio engineer (not DIY or by a 'tech'), and the mods were all sensible, if anything it helped me sell my player. But the mods didn't add any value to my player & I ended up selling the player for the going rate at the time. And I marketed the mods very well with high res photos, links to my Audio Engineer's site etc. I've heard other 'philes have had success selling modded gear above bluebook value. It depends if there is a niche for that product and whether the parts you're incorporating into your project are the 'flavour of the hour'. In other words, it can be hit and miss. After that experience, I decided to simply buy a better player and be content as you said.

Cheers,
Bodhi.

Originally Posted by Smile

The 3 other people joining this forum to post on this thread made a total of 4 posts over 1 month in 2013 and disappeared. Suspicious, no?
thezaks, you join a thread dormant for 18 months to make a 1000 word post defending TUC.
If you're around next year, having made numerous posts on other matters, I guess you'll be owed an apology. I'm betting against it.

Hi Smile,

In that first post, I fully admitted that I'm just joining this forum, and that I came to it specifically because of the thread. I'm sure everyone comes to a forum for one reason or another, and mine was to share my experiences regarding TUC for this thread.

The intent of my post is not a defense of TUC - my intent was to share my "experience". I feel that actual experiences with TUC are a contribution to this thread and to the person who started this thread.

Dave

Originally Posted by CPP

And here it is,
---------------------------
Hi Chris,

Yes, any modification would void the warranty.

Best
Regards,

Customer Service
OPPO Digital, Inc.
2629B Terminal Blvd.
Mountain
View, CA 94043
Service@oppodigital.com
Tel: 650-961-1118
Fax:
650-961-1119

________________________________________
From: OPPO
Store
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 6:41 AM
To: OPPO Service
Subject:
Message From Chris

Message from Contact Us Web
Page

Name: Chris
E-Mail:
Phone:
Preferred Contact
Method: E-Mail
Category: Sales
Order Number:

Note: I was reading that the Modwright OPPO modifications will cancel out any warranty on the OPPO player, is
that correct ? and what about 'The Upgrade Company'

Hi Chris,

I think if someone is genuinely interested and wants to ask an honest question to TUC, I think it would be a good question to ask TUC. If the motive is otherwise, however, I suspect that TUC will be able to tell. I can only share my experience. When I sent in my Pioneer BDP-05FD blu ray player for an update modification, it came back playing video, but not audio. TUC asked me to send it back right away. They took a look at the player, and found some issues with it - suspicious of shipping issues. They immediately sent me a brand new upgraded BDP-05FD. I haven't had a problem with it since, and that was 2-3 years ago.

Thanks,
Dave

Originally Posted by CPP

Hi Dave, maybe TUC is going to warranty the repairs on the unit themselves and fix the unit at their repair shop. All I know and I can only go by what OPPO informed me, if you send a OPPO product back to OPPO for repairs and it has been modified by someone other than OPPO, your going to get it back. not repaired.

Hi Chris,

Thanks for sharing that! I think you're right, TUC would have to back the warranty themselves, with regards to the Oppo units. As I mentioned earlier, Onkyo seems to be fine with repairing modded home theater processors, as long as the mod isn't the cause of the issue.

Dave

Originally Posted by mep

And Mark, what rules does AS have against shills whose sole purpose in joining this forum is to shill for a company-let alone shilling for a 'company' that has a long track record on internet forums of causing hate and discontent?

Hi mep,

I take offense to your comment. You have now labelled me as a "shill" that is "shilling" for a company. Absolutely not true. I'm simply sharing my experiences. I don't understand why this thread has to degrade from sharing experiences to accusing folks of being shills??

Dave

Tell us more Dave, what was your compelling reason for joining AS and sharing your experiences in this thread? Why did you feel the need to do it?

Originally Posted by arthurs

Tell us more Dave, what was your compelling reason for joining AS and sharing your experiences in this thread? Why did you feel the need to do it?

Hi arthurs,

Actually, the thing that really attracted me to AS was the moniker - "We don't bite! The friendliest audio forum". However, after being labelled a "shill", I'm not so sure about that now.

Regarding the thread, the first post is why I thought I might have something to contribute.

Thanks,
Dave

Originally Posted by Mike

I've heard of TUC before. Basically, unless I understand the premise wrong, their position is "what you just bought sucks due to bad wiring and cheap parts and we know better and can fix it."

Am I close?

So this is a sales pitch of fear: get rid of your "crap parts" and not one of improvement modification like adding tubes to digital?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi Mike,

I'm sure everyone reads things a certain way, and I understand that. I think the TUC pitch, from my perspective, is that there are parts in equipment that can be bettered, and there is RFI that needs to be addressed. I think they even point out that expensive components can be bettered by these two items.

However, I don't perceive it as a sales pitch of fear. It can definitely read as over the top, but I'm betting there's truth to the fact that there are better parts that can be used in some areas of components, and I'm betting that reduction of RFI is beneficial as well.

That's why I had to try it, and I tried it on a lower cost component - my Pioneer BDP-05FD blu ray player. I wanted to find out - is this all a bunch of baloney, or is there something to it. I soon found out that there is something to it, as I mentioned in my experience with that BDP-05FD.

Was it a crazy life-changing improvement - no. Was it definitely an upgrade and better than it was - yes. Is the price I paid somewhat of a value for the improvement - yes.

And now, there are reviewers who are also finding that the improvements are there and are a good value.

By the way, I see that some of your equipment is some of the same brands that my dealer (Celestial Audio/Video in Phoenix, AZ) used to carry. Unfortunately, they had to close shop, after being open for 20 years. That's what put me on the road to looking at what would be next, and thus caused me to experiment with TUC. I've owned and had many Pass Labs and Cary pieces go through my room, and I thoroughly enjoyed all of them. My dealer had the Cary 805AE monoblocks, and I always enjoyed listening to them.

Thanks,
Dave

Originally Posted by Mike

What this flies in the face of, is the makers of these great products. I guess if things were pitched truly as an upgrade, an improvement and included specific details, and didn't rely on "your new amp sucks because the parts are cheap and the wiring is poor", then people COULD view it as a true upgrade like some of the after market mods for cars,

But what I see is quite insulting to the people who created these fine pieces in the first place.

What has TUC created from scratch? Do they have amps? Preamps? Speakers? Or do they just criticize others?

Although I have no first hand experience with TUC products, I have been in this industry long enough to hear the stories from others.

That being said, I'm glad your experience has been a positive one. Hopefully other TUC customers will chime in here and speak of their experiences so we can get a bigger picture of what is done and the realized benefits.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi Mike,

I agree with what you mentioned about flying in the face of Manufacturers. That's why Stereophile reviewers won't even consider reviewing the upgrades. However, reviewers from dagogo.com and positive-feedback.com have provided reviews.

To my knowledge, TUC has not created a component from scratch - I don't believe that is their business. Their business, as I see it, is to replace "some" parts and to apply some things which help with RFI. Through experience, they've gotten better at it. This is where I wondered if there was really going to be an improvement or not. Just because a part is supposed to be better than the one that was designed in with a component, doesn't mean it's going to make it better. However, they've done something right, because the upgrades do improve the performance.

Now you have me a bit curious, because it seems like a lot of the folks, like you, hear stories. I'm just wondering - who tells these stories? Are they from folks with actual experience with TUC? Seems like of all the forums I have read involving TUC, almost all of the negative comments were just speculation and/or came from reading speculation from other folks. In total, there was only 1-2 folks who actually had experience with TUC and complained about it, amidst the many folks who posted positive experiences. Seems like many folks have latched on to the 1-2 folks that had negative experiences, and they have formed their opinion based upon those. They've really poured it on in some of these threads, and then you see other folks repeating the same negative comments.

This thread is a great example and somewhat justifies my thoughts. So far, not one person with actual experience has chimed in that they had a negative experience.

I will say that David, from TUC, did himself a great disservice at times, by his posts in some of those forums. He let his emotions get to him, and he would go off. I can truly understand if folks have formed an opinion, based upon those comments. For me, he has been one of the nicest folks I have dealt with in all of my audio/video ventures. He has been extremely giving and trusting. He's had no issues when I returned several versions of TimePortal cables, since I didn't think they surpassed my references. However, I do have "some" of those cables now, since they have improved enough to justify replacing my references. It did take a few years and several versions of the cables. That's my experience.

Thanks,
Dave

Originally Posted by mep

Mike-I hope you can distinguish between real customers and sock puppets. If you look at one of the links I posted above, you will see another thread where thezaks has written a bunch of posts that mirror what is going on here. All of these threads have ended in disaster and I expect this one to be no different. Unlike companies that actually perform modifications which involve replacing resistors, capacitors, diodes, adding tube output circuits, and beefing up the power supply which can and will change the sound of the component (and we can argue if the change is better or worse and if the resale value has been negatively affected), that is not what TUC does. Knowledge of audio circuits and a background in electronics is not required for their mods.

It makes one wonder why someone who had an Oppo player modded by TUC would feel motivated to carry their flag and try to do damage control across several forums over a period of years.

Hi mep,

I'm actually happy that you posted those links, because it shows that the same kind of thing happens over and over. Yes, all of the threads ended in disaster. And yes, I have tried to post my opinions and provide my opinion on some of the baseless negative comments. I think that when folks take a really good look at these threads, they will see why the threads have been closed. As with this thread, where is all of the negativity coming from? Is it from the folks who post their positive experiences with TUC?

Actually, I believe TUC does replace some of the parts as part of their modification. Even if they only did RFI reduction and did not replace any parts, is that a bad thing? As long as it makes an improvement to the component, folks in general would be happy.

You're wondering why folks who have had a positive experience with TUC are happy to comment on that,even in multiple forums? That is not abnormal - it's what happens in many of the threads on any forum. Folks comment, good and bad, on their experiences with products. That seems normal to me. What makes me wonder is why folks who have zero experience with TUC come to the TUC threads to put down the company and the folks who have had positive experiences with the company. That seems a bit abnormal to me - seems to have the appearance of an agenda.

Dave

Originally Posted by rbbert

The areas of concern appear to be these:

1) your only posts here are in a thread which had been dead for over 18 months; it's not an unreasonable supposition to think you joined here merely to post in this thread

2) as Mark said, TUC's mods don't display any particular knowledge of engineering or electronics; they aren't much if any different than something anyone of us could do

3) there have been quite a few threads started at various Internet audio forums about peoples' horrible experiences dealing with TUC; perhaps they have no more basis than this one?

Hi Rob,

My responses below:

1) I don't think I've ever joined a thread at it's beginning. Whether for TV's, amplifiers, or anything. Whether it's this forum or AVS or Aficianado or others, I've never joined a thread at it's beginning. Some are within the first week or month, and some are threads that are a year or two old before I join them. I really didn't realize it's an issue to join a thread a year or two into its existence. I post in AVS regularly, and I do not see folks pinging others for being a newbie or joining a thread some period of time after its start. I've posted in some DIY stuff on the AVS forum, after the thread had been dead for a while, and nobody seemed to see that as an issue. Strange indeed...

Regardless, I have been upfront - I joined this forum/thread specifically for this subject. You are free to consider that as you like. When coming to a thread like this, I like to share my experiences with the discussion that is in question - even for those folks who like to share their negative comments.

2) Was it Mark or Mike? Anyway, I'm not sure how folks can make the assessment about knowledge of engineering or electronics? How can you be sure of all that is being done to a component? I'll say what I've been saying from the beginning. If, for you, the credentials are not satisfactory and you believe you can do the same yourselves, then there's really not a reason to be here. No worries, it's not for you - move on to something else. For me, I'm not worried about credentials or what has been done, so I suppose I'm a good candidate for TUC. (although, I admit, I did try it out with the least financial risk possible for myself) Like I mentioned, I wanted to find out if it was all baloney or if there was truly an upgrade. For me and my experience, I found it was the latter. Even when I get a new component (not from TUC), I'm not worried about the Designer's credentials, and I don't care what's inside. Ultimately, I care about the performance of the audio and/or video.

3) I have not seen that. I have only seen one or two folks on those forums, with actual experience, who claimed to have a negative experience. I think you'll find the same on this forum - nobody with actual experience has claimed a negative experience.


Dave

After reading this thread, is there anyone on AS that would send their Oppo to TUC?

Originally Posted by Steve

There are questions about it Dave. TUG or TUC or whatever you want to call it, "re"-sells "modded" product on its website at manufacturers RRP. It is not not an authorised dealer for any of these brands. No manufacturer warranty applies. These are clearly second hand modified goods for which onus is on TUG to warrant refund/repair/replace. Are they really that specialised to handle all of those brands? How could that be if they are not an authorised repairer by any manufacturer?

Where does he source these goods? The grey market or on demand. Money up front. On demand where the goods are not supplied by the customer is still grey market. Goods that are supplied by the customer is warranty void and needs to be "certified" or "re certified" by TUG on its terms for them to "accept the responsibility". Dubious. Like I said, would you as a customer want to test them out on a warranty claim of $50k for failed amplifier. And the poor international customer would have to ship that voltage modded POS that weighs a tonne at its own cost in the hope that TUG will come good on its second hand repair promise?

Speculation...? Read what they are selling online. It's a grey market SCAM. Don't get sucked into to it. Make no mistake, you are buying second hand goods from TUG by virtue of their practises. That is my opinion and I'm entitled to stating an opinion last I checked.

How come he hasn't been shut down yet? Maybe the serial numbers have been tampered with?

Those considering buying product off TUG have got to ask these questions and then think again.

The statements made have no representation and are opinions to raise discussion and awareness as is the typical purpose of a forum. YMMV. Do your own research and see for yourself!

Hi Steve,

First, it's TUC - The Upgrade Company. Manufacturer Warranty "can" apply, in some cases. As I mentioned with my Onkyo, the mods did not affect the Warranty. Mine was fixed under Warranty by an Onkyo Authorized Repair Center. In the case of an Oppo, if there's a genuine concern and a genuine interest, then ask TUC about it. Perhaps, as it was previously suggested, TUC would handle any issues.

Yes, speculation, from folks who have zero experience. Opinion, that is fine. I'm happy to share my experience, if/when it differs from your opinion. I'm also willing to be honest about things, including the negative posts that TUC has had in older forum threads (other forums).

To my knowledge, TUC has been in business for 30 years. I just looked it up, and they have an A+ rating with the Better Business Bureau. Still, what matters more to me is my experience, which itself has been great.

If folks have those questions, they can:

a. consider the comments by folks who have actual experience with TUC
b. try it as I did, on a lower cost component, and see if it's baloney or not

I agree, folks should do their own research. That's what I did. I ended up looking past the negative posts from folks who had zero experience with TUC. In the end, I was either going to slap myself up the side of my head for not listening to those folks, or I was going to be glad I didn't listen to those folks. For me, it turned out to be the latter.

Dave

Originally Posted by Steve

Fred's Upgrade Company, FUC no!

As much as my experience disagrees with your speculations and opinions, I've gotta give you guys credit on your creativity and sense of humor. Have a great weekend everyone.

Dave

Originally Posted by mep

Which means absolutely nothing as shown by an expose on 60 minutes a few years ago. BBB ratings are paid for regardless of the merits of the companies who shell out the cash to the BBB. The bottom line is never make a decision to do business with a company because of a great rating from the BBB.

Which is exactly why I mentioned:

Still, what matters more to me is my experience, which itself has been great.

Dave

Originally Posted by mep

Well, you have certainly been a flag bearer for TUC for years now as evidenced by the links I provided earlier in the thread. I'm glad you enjoyed the mods you had performed and they still motivate you to search out TUC threads on the internet and join forums for the sole purpose of spreading the TUC gospel. It's hard to believe that someone who has no skin in the game (meaning financial ties to the company) would care so much and spend years trying to set the record straight on how great it is to do business with TUC. I find it all a bit much.

+1

Originally Posted by mep

Well, you have certainly been a flag bearer for TUC for years now as evidenced by the links I provided earlier in the thread. I'm glad you enjoyed the mods you had performed and they still motivate you to search out TUC threads on the internet and join forums for the sole purpose of spreading the TUC gospel. It's hard to believe that someone who has no skin in the game (meaning financial ties to the company) would care so much and spend years trying to set the record straight on how great it is to do business with TUC. I find it all a bit much.

Hi mep (and Arthurs),

I appreciate your intentions and how you feel about this, but, to me, it seems a little backwards. Yes, I own TUC products and I like finding threads on those and sharing my experiences. I also own a Pioneer Elite RPTV (15 years old), and I like to find threads on that and hang out there as well. I hang out on the McIntosh threads, because I had (just sold) an MX-151. I hang around on the Krell threads, because I have a Krell amplifier. I hang around Wireworld Platinum threads, because I have some of their cables. There's many more... I might hang around for years on many of these forums. I even hang out there after I no longer own the products. It's fun to share.

Anyway, I have no skin in the game for any of these companies, yet I enjoy sharing my experiences for any of them on different forums and many threads.

This is "normal". It happens all the time on forums. Folks do this every day.


Dave

OPPO upgrades: Fairly new poster to various sites . Good info. on most topics. For someone that has invested 4+ years researching numerous products /strategies I have learned much and wish to share experiences . I've built 2 substantial media rooms in 3 years. Only component that is the same in both is OPPO 105D. When I first realized that companies do "mods"/ upgrades to OPPO did extensive research on 3 of them. Most everyone on numerous forums agree that OPPO is best bang for buck transport even used with some very high end components. That said when you are spending 10s of thousands on amps, power, speakers etc. The OPPO is a core component and the ability to maximize the OPPO was interesting.. Bottom line of the 3 companies ( 1 in U.K.- 1 added vacumn tubes on top of unit " too radical"; I decided to try The Upgrade Company. Frankly was shocked at improvement. Because I had a 2nd OPPO 105D not upgraded I played both for friends and they too could not believe the difference in sound ( fuller sound, crisp vocals & mid range, etc. + improved video quality including the Darbee video processor.) I'm sure the quality of other components and using high end power / HDMI cables is critical to the improvements I saw. I've been spending most time recently in the PS Audio DirectStream DAC /DSD vs PCM. post, but when I saw this decided to add my 2 cents. Do not understand the magic in the upgrade but know some components are replaced with higher end components and RF contamination is addressed. I also upgraded a Marantz A/V processor with similar results. As mentioned I've build 2 media rooms in 3 years and the upgrades truly enhanced the overall quality. Media Room-1= Classe SSP-800 + Classe Amps-B & W 802D Diamonds- Upgraded OPPO 105D -PS Audio DS DAC- Auralic Aries streamer-NAS. Top of line Shunyata power cables and filters- AudioQuest cables and interconnects all very high end. MR #2 Marantz A/V Processor SIMaudio Amps & pre Amps, OPPO 105D, Audience power conditioner and cables . Audioquest cables. PS Audio , Aries + DAC again for 2 channel music. Look forward to getting involved in more areas & post on this site. I have a serious case of the
Audiophile bug and can't seem to ever get enough info. D Nelson

I was looking to get a Modded 105D last year and found TUC online. After reading his web site I called to talk about his mods. I left a message twice and never got a call back. I continued my research and found a company called EVS, Rik Schultz and had a long conversation about the mods he would do. Anyway, long story short, the 105D sounds incredible. I spent $800 for the EVS mods. So there are lots of options for 105 mods and company's with good reviews.

Originally Posted by thezaks

Hi mep (and Arthurs),

I appreciate your intentions and how you feel about this, but, to me, it seems a little backwards. Yes, I own TUC products and I like finding threads on those and sharing my experiences. I also own a Pioneer Elite RPTV (15 years old), and I like to find threads on that and hang out there as well. I hang out on the McIntosh threads, because I had (just sold) an MX-151. I hang around on the Krell threads, because I have a Krell amplifier. I hang around Wireworld Platinum threads, because I have some of their cables. There's many more... I might hang around for years on many of these forums. I even hang out there after I no longer own the products. It's fun to share.

Anyway, I have no skin in the game for any of these companies, yet I enjoy sharing my experiences for any of them on different forums and many threads.

This is "normal". It happens all the time on forums. Folks do this every day.


Dave

Folks may do this every day but it is not normal. You said "I enjoy sharing my experiences for any of them on different forums and many threads." But on the Shark you have 25 posts, 24 of which are in this thread. A one-note-song is only noise.

Originally Posted by Dizzie

Folks may do this every day but it is not normal. You said "I enjoy sharing my experiences for any of them on different forums and many threads." But on the Shark you have 25 posts, 24 of which are in this thread. A one-note-song is only noise.

Hi Dizzie,

Actually, it is normal and it is the norm. I'm curious as to why you think it's not normal, even though folks do this every day on forums? If folks are doing this every day, isn't that the norm? Seems like a backwards world that you are trying to impress upon this thread.

What's not normal is folks giving newbie's a hard time, getting on folks who post in older threads, tracking posts, etc. Kind of creepy, if you ask me.

If you can't help yourself and will continue down that road, then you might as well go check into my posts (same user name) on the avsforum and/or the audioaficianado forum. Regarding this forum, my activity/behaviour is normal. Think about it, a lot of folks who join forums will start with one thread, and they will have quite a few posts in that first thread. Aside from that, the number of posts in a thread can depend upon the activity in that thread. For example, I posted in an OLED thread, but there's not any activity there, so my post(s) are limited there.

If someone on this forum cares only about posting in one thread, is that a problem? Everyone is different - we're not all the same. Some folks like posting in as many threads as they can and as much as time allows. Some are only interested in a few threads. And, there are folks who might only care about one thread.

You are seriously beating up on someone because they only posted in one thread (actually two in this case)? I guess all folks who post in the audioshark forum should be informed that it's frowned upon to only post in one thread! I was thinking that, based upon the moniker for this forum (We don't bite! The friendliest audio forum), I would not encounter this kind of attitude. Either your attitude is a representation of this forum, or, you are out of line with the intent of this forum. Perhaps a moderator or such can clarify for me and all the other one-threaders.

Dave

Originally Posted by mep

Serial killers consider what they do as normal also. It's all a matter of perspective.

Seriously mep, what is that supposed to mean? Are you actually comparing the normality of posting in a forum with serial killers?

Dave

I don't want to speak for Mep but I doubt that's the case. More likely he was commenting on the normalized view we each have of our own behavior versus how others may perceive or interpret it...hence the disconnect here of members who perceive repeated contribution to a single thread as unusual and potentially shilling and your view of it as typical and helpful...

Originally Posted by arthurs

I don't want to speak for Mep but I doubt that's the case. More likely he was commenting on the normalized view we each have of our own behavior versus how others may perceive or interpret it...hence the disconnect here of members who perceive repeated contribution to a single thread as unusual and potentially shilling and your view of it as typical and helpful...

Thanks arthurs! Your comment is much appreciated and is so much more reasonable and informative than many of the other comments that have been made.

So, I can understand that there is potential for shilling on any thread. On one side, there may be folks who are honestly sharing their experiences and/or their excitement for a product, and on the other side, there might just be some who are there specifically to entice others. In the same way, a shill might jump into a forum and onto only one thread, but so can a person who just wants to be part of a forum thread.

My point is that, more often than not, the newbie is joining for honest reasons. I'm sure there are shills that join as newbies, but I think the majority that join are not shills. And yes, some shills will pour themselves into one thread, but others will do it out of genuine interest - I believe the latter is the majority. It has to be. Otherwise, the majority of folks in these forums would be shills. If that's the case, then it's a forum I do not want to visit.

On the other side, there are the folks that are opposed to shills and will jump into a thread just to call out shills. These folks, as it seems here, do not have any experience with the thread topic. Because of this, from my perspective, it gives the appearance of an agenda.

My other point is that, in most forum threads (on avsforum and audioaficianado), folks do not pick on newbies for having an opinion, or for only contributing to one thread, or for saying something nice about a product. There might be opposing opinions, but when folks share their experiences, they don't get called shills. That is why I am calling that normal. Because it is the norm - it's typically what is seen. It's rare that folks who have actually had experiences with a product get called out for it by folks without any experiences. That is why this thread seems a little backwards, compared to all the other threads I participate in, in all the other forums I've visited.


Dave

No worries Dave. I see what you're saying but one important addition...surely you were aware of the volatility that has followed this topic to every site it's been on, so it can't be a surprising result when that trend continues...if you weren't aware, some research is in order. I'd suggest an agree to disagree approach to this thread and enjoy posting in some other good discussion on AS, this clearly won't be the thread that changes the world view on this topic...my two cents, overstated value for sure