Thread: Topping or MSB?

Guys after reading this review I am thinking I should sell the MSB and purchase the Topping DAC. With such a glowing review and “EndGameDAC” status it should be a no brainer right?

Topping D90SE Digital-to-Analog Converter - The Absolute Sound

Originally Posted by nc42acc

Guys after reading this review I am thinking I should sell the MSB and purchase the Topping DAC. With such a glowing review and “EndGameDAC” status it should be a no brainer right?

Topping D90SE Digital-to-Analog Converter - The Absolute Sound

LOL. I’ll put the Chord Mojo 2 against it!


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My Oppo 205 uses the same DAC's as the Topping, uses a similar way to overcome the "midrange hump" (summing the output of 2 of the ESS 9038PRO chips) with (very likely) a better output stage. Over about 50-60 hours of comparison with this to the fully optioned MSB Discrete, my initial impressions (arrived at after only about 10 minutes of comparing) were confirmed. The Modwright Oppo is clearly the equal (or better) of several DAC's in the under $10k range to which I compared it, but the MSB Discrete (even at the bottom of that manufacturer's range) is a clear step above.

Steven Stone is one of the few subjective reviewers with whom I have both a frame of reference and respect for his opinions, and it's not 100% clear to which higher end DAC's he is comparing the Topping, but in the greater scheme of things it is not truly "reference level".

I had one & sold it.

I have a Topping D50. Sometimes you find that even though you paid almost nothing for a product, you paid waaay too much.

Originally Posted by Jim Smith

I had one & sold it.

That’s all I need to know on this one.


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MSB Premier $28,000.00. Topping D90SE $900.00. That’s almost $27,000.00 I could have put in my retirement fund AND had an EndGameDAC! You guys are killing my financial security. Thanks

Originally Posted by nc42acc

MSB Premier $28,000.00. Topping D90SE $900.00. That’s almost $27,000.00 I could have put in my retirement fund AND had an EndGameDAC! You guys are killing my financial security. Thanks

LOL


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Originally Posted by nc42acc

MSB Premier $28,000.00. Topping D90SE $900.00. That’s almost $27,000.00 I could have put in my retirement fund AND had an EndGameDAC! You guys are killing my financial security. Thanks

Well it all depends on how much you value your retirement funds vs using a piece of equipment.

I will keep the MSB and enjoy my system until I run out of retirement funds. I think this is a better ROI.

Originally Posted by CPP

Well it all depends on how much you value your retirement funds vs using a piece of equipment.

Jeff this doesn’t surprise me but we are talking about the Topping DAC. Trust me I have had my share of DACs through my system and I am staying with my MSB.

Originally Posted by jeff1225

Well.....a good friend with a nice system (Tannoy Westminster, Acoustic Signature Montana, Canary Amps, etc) bought a Topping preamp as a back up and prefered it over his Audio Research Ref 6 preamp. I couldn't believe it when he actually sold the Ref 6.

I haven't heard the Topping so I can't comment about the sound.

Originally Posted by nc42acc

Guys after reading this review I am thinking I should sell the MSB and purchase the Topping DAC. With such a glowing review and “EndGameDAC” status it should be a no brainer right?

Have I got a deal for you. I'll buy the Topping DAC and do a direct swap for your MSB. Fair?

Originally Posted by jeff1225

Well.....a good friend with a nice system (Tannoy Westminster, Acoustic Signature Montana, Canary Amps, etc) bought a Topping preamp as a back up and prefered it over his Audio Research Ref 6 preamp. I couldn't believe it when he actually sold the Ref 6.

Wow, an actual subjectivist. No audiophile for sure.

Originally Posted by jeff1225

Well.....a good friend with a nice system (Tannoy Westminster, Acoustic Signature Montana, Canary Amps, etc) bought a Topping preamp as a back up and prefered it over his Audio Research Ref 6 preamp. I couldn't believe it when he actually sold the Ref 6.

I haven't heard the Topping so I can't comment about the sound.

So, did you have a chance to compare the Topping preamp to the ARC Ref 6 in your good friend's system before he sold the Ref 6?

Originally Posted by mep

So, did you have a chance to compare the Topping preamp to the ARC Ref 6 in your good friend's system before he sold the Ref 6?

Are you giving this some consideration as well?

Originally Posted by rbbert

Are you giving this some consideration as well?

I've always dreamed of replacing my ARC Ref 6 with a cheap Chinese preamp.

Mark I think your missing out on a true giant killer.

Topping Pre90 line preamplifier | Stereophile.com

Originally Posted by mep

I've always dreamed of replacing my ARC Ref 6 with a cheap Chinese preamp.

Originally Posted by nc42acc

Mark I think your missing out on a true giant killer

Nah

AJ we can dream about the elusive audio giant killers can’t we? I think the Toppings signal to noise ratio is around 198db so that should mean something.

Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield

Nah

Originally Posted by nc42acc

I think the Toppings signal to noise ratio is around 198db so that should mean something.

It measures well below human audibility/perception thresholds, so would be (audibly) transparent, which is not always desired.
But that's the sound, no way to overcome the Pavlovian drama created by the price, country of origin, etc, etc. The science is very very clear there, as I linked (tip of iceberg).
In the end, you only have to make yourself happy and keep street cred, so...

AJ good point and trying to read between the lines I think I understand. Street cred in as “hey I have a $780,000.00 system it sounds better than anything on earth” or “hey my system has the lowest distortion numbers possible and it sounds better than anything on earth ” ?
Clarify please?

Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield

It measures well below human audibility/perception thresholds, so would be (audibly) transparent, which is not always desired.
But that's the sound, no way to overcome the Pavlovian drama created by the price, country of origin, etc, etc. The science is very very clear there, as I linked (tip of iceberg).
In the end, you only have to make yourself happy and keep street cred, so...

Originally Posted by jeff1225

I guess you are attempting to be funny or sarcastic?

Both coach, both

Originally Posted by jeff1225

Street cred is irrelevant in audio.

Beg to differ.

Jeff hard lesson to learn but exactly. Case in point when I added the Constellation pieces in my system they sounded better than anything prior. No shits given that everyone scoffs about the “cluttered” interior build quality. I now enjoy my system more than ever and have no desire to change anything. Buy what sounds good to you with no regards to what the audio “camps” say otherwise.

Originally Posted by jeff1225

Street cred is irrelevant in audio. It's just you, in your room, enjoying your system. There is no one to impress but yourself.

AJ street cred in audio is people who buy to impress vs who buy to enjoy music. Big difference me thinks.

Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield

Beg to differ.

Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield

Beg to differ.

I don't think you mean "street cred", you probably mean "internet cred". Although perhaps I am wrong...

Originally Posted by nc42acc

Mark I think your missing out on a true giant killer.

Topping Pre90 line preamplifier | Stereophile.com

Yeah. It has a whopping total of 2 inputs. It looks like a real game changer.

Jeff it is interesting indeed. I have a stack of Chinadacs if you would like to try one.

Originally Posted by jeff1225

TOPPING Pre90 Preamplifier & Ext90 Input Extender Hi-Res Audio NFCA M

You can get an extender!

I'm an audiophile and I like my expensive tube gear (Air Tight and Yamamoto into some JBL Hartsfields), but I do find this Chinese stuff interesting.

Originally Posted by nc42acc

Street cred in as “hey I have a $780,000.00 system"

This. And no Toppings, just plain cheese.

Originally Posted by nc42acc

“hey my system has the lowest distortion numbers possible and it sounds better than anything on earth ” ?

Well, that would be equally foolish. What I'm saying is that to be satisfied, sound isn't the only criteria. All your senses are being used and for many, price has an astronomical impact. So spend as needed, to be happy.

Originally Posted by rbbert

I don't think you mean "street cred"

I do for in person listening

I don’t think that is the answer AJ. Money doesn’t always make a happy audiophile, but will make some happy. The senses you mention I am assuming you are stressing the cost of the item and how luxurious it feels and looks in your rack? This may be true for 50% but is insulting to the other 50%.

Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield

This. And no Toppings, just plain cheese.


Well, that would be equally foolish. What I'm saying is that to be satisfied, sound isn't the only criteria. All your senses are being used and for many, price has an astronomical impact. So spend as needed, to be happy.

Originally Posted by nc42acc

I don’t think that is the answer AJ. Money doesn’t always make a happy audiophile, but will make some happy.

Well, its not quite 50/50, by any stretch. Just this thread being Exhibit A.

Originally Posted by nc42acc

I am assuming you are stressing the cost of the item and how luxurious it feels and looks in your rack? This may be true for 50% but is insulting to the other 50%.

Marty, there is no "insult" to being human and being profoundly affected by price, street cred, etc.
Just a moment...
Double-Blind Violin Test: Can You Pick The Strad? : Deceptive Cadence : NPR
etc, etc, etc

AJ I understand the double blind testing and debunking most high end audio nonsense. My criteria in buying audio gear is does it reproduce music as naturally and true to life as possible. At my point in life the cost factor is not as important as it was when I was in my 20s but the criteria has never changed. There is a place for everyone in this hobby. I think we are good to say we can agree to disagree and hope we both get immense musical enjoyment from our audio systems. Relax and enjoy the music.

Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield

Well, its not quite 50/50, by any stretch. Just this thread being Exhibit A.


Marty, there is no "insult" to being human and being profoundly affected by price, street cred, etc.
Just a moment...
Double-Blind Violin Test: Can You Pick The Strad? : Deceptive Cadence : NPR
etc, etc, etc

AJ let me ask you this if I may. As a speaker designer and manufacturer if you produce a speaker that has a perfect Harman curve in room response and another designer/manufacturer builds a speaker with a carbon copy replica of your speakers response will they sound the same?
Sorry using dissimilar drivers but achieving the same results.

Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield

Well, its not quite 50/50, by any stretch. Just this thread being Exhibit A.


Marty, there is no "insult" to being human and being profoundly affected by price, street cred, etc.
Just a moment...
Double-Blind Violin Test: Can You Pick The Strad? : Deceptive Cadence : NPR
etc, etc, etc

Originally Posted by nc42acc

AJ I understand the double blind testing and debunking most high end audio nonsense. My criteria in buying audio gear is does it reproduce music as naturally and true to life as possible. At my point in life the cost factor is not as important as it was when I was in my 20s but the criteria has never changed. There is a place for everyone in this hobby. I think we are good to say we can agree to disagree and hope we both get immense musical enjoyment from our audio systems. Relax and enjoy the music.

I think we are in agreement without you realizing it .
You know I make/sell $42k speakers right?
Whatever makes one happy.

cheers,

AJ

Originally Posted by nc42acc

As a speaker designer and manufacturer if you produce a speaker that has a perfect Harman curve in room response.

There is no Harman Curve

Originally Posted by nc42acc

another designer/manufacturer builds a speaker with a carbon copy replica of your speakers response will they sound the same?

Absolutely not...unless you mean anechoically 3D. The latter being critical, since I make very few monopole radiators.
DACs and Preamps, etc are electronic signal passers. Speakers are signal transducers, into rooms, so best not compared.
In room curve(s) from a pressure mic are best not used to judge 2 ears/brain SQ
Btw, I've never heard either Topping 90 pre or dac, though I doubt I would.

cheers

Sorry I just see that “Harman” curve touted as the ideal and best a loudspeaker can be. I guess you read and see something enough you start to believe it. Go figure.

Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield

There is no Harman Curve


Absolutely not...unless you mean anechoically 3D. The latter being critical, since I make very few monopole radiators.
DACs and Preamps, etc are electronic signal passers. Speakers are signal transducers, into rooms, so best not compared.
In room curve(s) from a pressure mic are best not used to judge 2 ears/brain SQ
Btw, I've never heard either Topping 90 pre or dac, though I doubt I would.

cheers

Originally Posted by nc42acc

Sorry I just see that “Harman” curve touted as the ideal and best a loudspeaker can be.

Don't listen to anyone that claims that.

cheers,

AJ

I have the Topping D90 DAC (the original non-SE version which uses in my opinion superior AKM 4499 DACs) and dCS Bartok in my office system. The later - sadly - still sounds noticably superior. I said sadly, as I would rather sell the dCS, keep the D90 and pocket the change.

That said - Topping D90 has INCREDIBLE value.

Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield

There is no Harman Curve

I was going to post this as well. I don't recall ever reading the term "Harman Curve", and I have read quite a bit about Harman's and Floyd Toole's loudspeaker testing methods and findings.

I think it is a catch phrase used by the disciples who worship at the feet of anything from Harman.

Originally Posted by rbbert

I was going to post this as well. I don't recall every reading the term "Harman Curve", and I have read quite a bit about Harman's and Floyd Toole's loudspeaker testing methods and findings.