Standalone DACs under $10k?

**2FlyingYorkies** · January 2, 2021, 10:15 PM

I've had my PS Audio DS Junior for a few years now, and it's starting to make me consider upgrading. Functionally, it has days where it just sort of gets confused and needs the FPGA rebooted more than once. And the front display seems to have its own agenda as to when/what it feels like showing. From a sonic standpoint, I think I'm getting tired of the degree of built-in distortion at lower frequencies that comes from the transformer in the output stage. It can feel a bit "tube like" on good days but other times it's just flabby. Listening to the same tracks via the Sabre 9038Pro in my Oppo 205 disc spinner is audibly different, and I'm going to argue that it's different in a good way, at least from the standpoint of accuracy.

So what's everybody using that's still on the market new? I'm looking for a standalone pure DAC, so I do not need streaming or preamp functionality built in. If it's there, fine, but I'm not looking to pay extra to gain those features. Frankly, I haven't done any serious research yet, so I have not made my own list of candidates. I just got to the point of "fed up" tonight, and figured I start by polling this crew as to what's good!

**Jack** · January 2, 2021, 10:41 PM

Aqua Hi-Fi

**Mike** · January 2, 2021, 10:47 PM

MSB Discrete
Meitner MA3
Aqua LaScala v3

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**findog** · January 2, 2021, 10:54 PM

Any of the Lampizator DACs are wonderful.

**Kuoppis** · January 3, 2021, 05:27 AM

dCS Bartók

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**mikeyb** · January 3, 2021, 05:35 AM

Denafrips Terminator seems to be well thought of, not heard one but might be worth a look.

**brodricj** · January 3, 2021, 07:01 AM

The PS Audio is HiFi junk, for the reasons you have discovered. Ayon Audio Stealth is a HiFi bargain at its price point. I've owned the PS Audio Junior and senior DAC's, and the Ayon Stealth. No comparison, the Ayon walks all over the other two.

**Phishphan** · January 3, 2021, 04:58 PM

Bryston BDA3 is a steal.

The new Meitner DAC looks very interesting. Haven't heard it though.

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**2FlyingYorkies** · January 3, 2021, 06:48 PM

An interesting group of options to start looking at, including a couple I'm not at all familiar with.

I see that several of them are tube based, or at least have tubes in the signal path. Aside from "go listen and decide for yourself if you like it", what's the benefit/feature that this introduces into what should theoretically be a digital signal path? It's not "historically correct", and for me it's not even nostalgic since I've never been a tubes guy. Doesn't mean I can't start, but it just feels odd to me to intentionally put a known distortion source into what should otherwise be a bit-perfect digital device.

Looking at it from the other direction, I also see there are almost no delta-sigma DACs mentioned. Those have proven to measure very well on a bench, and my own ears seem to think that the one in my Oppo isn't bad at all sonically for being part of a movie player. Any particular reason that technology doesn't appear here? I wonder if it's because the base chips are fairly inexpensive, and even audio folks have struggled to find a way to charge higher prices for them? In the $2-4k range there are a number that get good discussion, including units from Matrix Audio and Okto Research, but nothing much above that price point.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not opposed to a strong performing bargain! Just trying to educate myself a little. And of course living out here in the audio wasteland of central Kansas, any kind of in-person audition is likely either a "buy and hope for returns" situation or a lengthy road trip that would break my quarantine a little more aggressively than I want to.

**Scotty** · January 3, 2021, 08:16 PM

Mojo Audio - outstanding - he occasionally gets the Mystique V3 in trade for the Evo

**rbbert** · January 3, 2021, 08:42 PM

I started a thread essentially identical to this one a few months ago; I can’t remember if there were other worthwhile suggestions, but you might want to check there

DAC's $5k - $11k

**tino27** · January 3, 2021, 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by Phishphan

Bryston BDA3 is a steal.

I'll second the Bryston BDA-3. Plus I'm using it with my Oppo UDP-205 so that I can still play back and decode my SACD collection (via HDMI cable). For me, it was a marked upgrade in sound over the Oppo's built in Sabre chipset and reasonably priced at roughly $4k.

**nicoludio** · January 3, 2021, 11:08 PM

Weiss DAC502 (DAC501 is the same but in a half size chassis).

Review and measurements (excellent btw) here - Weiss Engineering DAC502 D/A processor | Stereophile.com

Have compared it with the Chord DAVE & Bricasti M1 in one system and Aqua Formula xHD in another.

**Kingrex** · January 4, 2021, 01:02 AM

Originally Posted by Scotty

Mojo Audio - outstanding - he occasionally gets the Mystique V3 in trade for the Evo

I love my Mojo Audio. Best DAC I ever owned. I almost upgraded to his EVO last week. I'm just so happy with the Mystique V3 I could not pull the trigger. Don't forget about the server. Its way more important than people want to believe. The server is where the quiet, calm, clean background comes from. The DAC is more the pace, rhythm and timing. The OMG it sound real. Having both makes digital special.
Mojo is 30 day money back guarantee. But you wont send it back.

**Gregm** · January 4, 2021, 07:43 AM

For high-performance DACs under 5k I'll mention my own Ideon Ayazi Mk-2 and the Benchmark DAC-3, IMO excellent contenders.
In my small system, either of these DACs empirically sounded close to my hi-end MSB.

**CPP** · January 4, 2021, 09:01 AM

Just give it 6 months or a year and another dac(s) will be coming out. Its a never-ending cycle of what's best, best under and best over

How about Lampizator Golden Atlantic with additional DSD512 module, the T+A Dac8 DSD if you mostly plan to upsample all to DSD512, Bricasti M1, the Acqua Formula Dac, Berkeley Ref for PCM (used market), Meitner MA-1 just so many others, Denafrips Terminator, Schiit Yggdrasil, Holo May, Total Dac D1 MK2, etc..

**hifinutt** · January 4, 2021, 11:33 AM

black ice audio dacs are superb , huge popularity on forums in UK [ previous jolida] as they sound way above their price point especially when they are modded [ like mine ]

Black Ice Audio | Underwood HiFi

**Randy Myers** · January 4, 2021, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

MSB Discrete
Meitner MA3
Aqua LaScala v3

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No T+A Mike?

T+A worth considering and saving a bit of money, especially if you are a fan of how much better DSD can be.

**Mike** · January 4, 2021, 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by Randy Myers

No T+A Mike?

T+A worth considering and saving a bit of money, especially if you are a fan of how much better DSD can be.

I was thinking right around the $10k mark.

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**Randy Myers** · January 4, 2021, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

I was thinking right around the $10k mark.

I pretty much knew that, was just busting on ya.

However I would put the T+A as competitive against most anything in the up to $10K range, maybe even higher. If you are talking about DSD and especially if you are going to use HQ Player then you got to go considerably higher in my view

.

**2FlyingYorkies** · January 4, 2021, 07:23 PM

In my personal case, I'm running from my Aurender (or disc spinner, etc) directly to the DAC. No PC in the loop to upsample to DSD512, nor do I have plans to add one.

**Randy Myers** · January 4, 2021, 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by 2FlyingYorkies

In my personal case, I'm running from my Aurender (or disc spinner, etc) directly to the DAC. No PC in the loop to upsample to DSD512, nor do I have plans to add one.

Each person has to use what is best for them. Of course DSD can be enjoyed without up-sampling, and of course a PC is not always required tp perform up-sampling). I have over 400 DSD albums and their sound quality is amazing. But as I said, to each their own

. I hope you find the perfect DAC for your use. There have been some very good ones mentioned in this thread (including T+A).

**rbbert** · January 4, 2021, 09:05 PM

Originally Posted by Randy Myers

...T+A worth considering and saving a bit of money, especially if you are a fan of how much better DSD can be.

Why do you say this??

**2FlyingYorkies** · January 4, 2021, 09:18 PM

Originally Posted by Randy Myers

Of course DSD can be enjoyed without up-sampling, and of course a PC is not always required tp perform up-sampling).

Sure, I have some DSD albums too, and the PS Audio converts everything to DSD before doin the D/A conversion, regardless of original format. But how would a system like mine go from a Tidal streaming PCM/FLAC format to DSD512 without a PC in the mix? Genuinely curious, as I thought a high horsepower computer was needed for such things. I looked at the T+A back when I got the PS, and the extra hardware to extract max performance was a factor at the time.

**Randy Myers** · January 4, 2021, 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by rbbert

Why do you say this??

T+A is known as a DSD specialist to many. They have completely different circuits and signal paths for PCM and DSD files. They developed their own DSD circuits and in every review I have read for any T+A DAC they mention how their DSD process is top notch, among the best!

I was resistant and felt DSD was not a big deal. Norman, believe it or not, was the one who finally convinced me to try DSD (thanks Norman). After I did there was no turning back; in my view DSD sounds much better. A friend of mine is one of the first musicians to start recording in DSD. In his view DSD is the most analog sounding of the digital formats. I agree.

This was all long before I discovered HQ Player. HQ Player is not simply an up-sampling logarithm, although it does this better than any system out there. It is one of the finest sounding playback engines in my view and works very well in conjunction with Roon. Roon is my control environment and meta data provider and then it hands it off to HQ Player as the playback engine.

Anyway, probably more info than you were asking for...

**Randy Myers** · January 4, 2021, 09:37 PM

Originally Posted by 2FlyingYorkies

Sure, I have some DSD albums too, and the PS Audio converts everything to DSD before doin the D/A conversion, regardless of original format. But how would a system like mine go from a Tidal streaming PCM/FLAC format to DSD512 without a PC in the mix? Genuinely curious, as I thought a high horsepower computer was needed for such things. I looked at the T+A back when I got the PS, and the extra hardware to extract max performance was a factor at the time.

It depends on your system of course, but Roon does up-sampling, and there are Linux systems that can now also (although I have no knowledge of this). Not sure on Aurender, but they might be able to do up-sampling as well now... not sure.

I am familiar with PS Audio and was considering one of those prior when I choose T+A. I actually had a nice long talk with Ted Smith at a show once about how PS Audio internally up-samples everything and then down samples it to DSD128 to be converted to analog. By the way, the highest level level file that PS Audio convert is DSD128. This is strange to me since it internally up-samples to many times higher then that and then down-samples the file for final playback to DSD128. So unless you change your DAC any up-sampling you do should be capped at DSD128 because the PS Audio does not accept anything higher (unless they recently changed this).

The only system that truly requires a high horsepower computer is HQ Player. Roon is much more friendly with mid-powered gear.

Anyway, can't give you any exact recommendations because I do not use products like the Aurender; instead I use a custom built dedicated PC as my server. But I would tell you that there may possible be ways to accomplish this with your system and I would encourage you to search because it is certainly worth the effort.

I also always look for the highest DSD sample I can find when purchasing DSD albums (up to DSD512). I figure the better in the better out and I do believe that a lower level DSD files up-sampled do sound better then a PCM file up-sampled, but all of the above sound better in DSD with my system. Every file I listen to on my system is sent to the DAC in DSD512.

The portable player does not up-sample but it can play up to DSD256!

**rbbert** · January 5, 2021, 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by Randy Myers

T+A is known as a DSD specialist to many. They have completely different circuits and signal paths for PCM and DSD files. They developed their own DSD circuits and in every review I have read for any T+A DAC they mention how their DSD process is top notch, among the best!

I was resistant and felt DSD was not a big deal. Norman, believe it or not, was the one who finally convinced me to try DSD (thanks Norman). After I did there was no turning back; in my view DSD sounds much better. A friend of mine is one of the first musicians to start recording in DSD. In his view DSD is the most analog sounding of the digital formats. I agree.

This was all long before I discovered HQ Player. HQ Player is not simply an up-sampling logarithm, although it does this better than any system out there. It is one of the finest sounding playback engines in my view and works very well in conjunction with Roon. Roon is my control environment and meta data provider and then it hands it off to HQ Player as the playback engine.

Anyway, probably more info than you were asking for...

No, actually less, you didn’t really answer my question. DSD is great, but I still don’t understand what that has to do with T & A.

**Randy Myers** · January 5, 2021, 12:56 AM

Your question was "Why do you say this??". I pretty much answered the question in the first line. T+A is considered a DSD specialist or experts if you will. They have a dedicated signal path for DSD files that is separate from the signal path and processors used for PCM files, and the DSD files are converted using their proprietary DSD 1-bit dedicated processors. They are considered one of the highest level DACs for DSD files. If you don't understand that then I am afraid I cannot explain my statement any further.

By the way it is T+A, not T&A. An extremely highly rated German manufacture of some of the finest audio components in the world since 1978.

For PCM files eight 32-bit converters from Burr-Brown in a double symmetrical circuit are used. This circuit provides perfect compensation for non-linearities, and the residual background noise – which is excellent in any case with the 32-bit converters.

For DSD T+A's True One Bit DSD Converter is utilized. T+A is one of the only manufactures who separates PCM and DSD files which are then processed using completely separate signal paths, actual different sections within the T+A circuitry. In other words separate dedicated DACs are used for PCM and DSD, design specifically for each type of data.

"For the purpose of handling DSD data which can be supplied via the PC-USB input we have developed a unique, dedicated converter: the T+A True One Bit DSD Converter. This is of fully analogue construction and constitutes a genuine one-bit converter, since – unlike other manufacturers – we did not want to use the DSD mode of a PCM converter. This development ensures that DSD data are processed in a genuine one-bit stream process, uncoloured and without detrimental additional conversion, as in our PDP 3000 HV High-End DSD / PCM player. Fifteen long years ago we developed a means of galvanically separating the converter from the analogue section for use in our high-end players:"

**rbbert** · January 5, 2021, 09:02 AM

Whatever. Sounds like an infomercial to me.

**Randy Myers** · January 5, 2021, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by rbbert

Whatever. Sounds like an infomercial to me.

As you wish. You asked, I answered. I tried to answer in a shorter more basic form without going into the "infomercial" type language and you said I did not answer your question, therefore.....

T+A's reputation speaks for itself. Not saying it is the only great DAC in this range and certainly not saying it is for everyone. Other good choices have been listed here. For me, as a person who appreciates DSD, and later as a user of HQ Player, and on a reasonable budget, it is the ideal DAC.

**rbbert** · January 5, 2021, 12:46 PM

"T+A's reputation speaks for itself."

That's where we differ, I guess. dcs, MSB, Chord, Esoteric, Lampizator, Aqua, TotalDAC, etc. have pretty well established good reputations for sound quality. T + A gets praise, certainly, but not compared to those or some others. Just what I have noticed after a few decades of hanging around...

**aKnyght** · January 5, 2021, 01:16 PM

i have a t+a dac8 dsd and would enthusiastically recommend the OP include it in his search / investigation. at an msrp of ~$4k, its price / performance ratio is quite high and i feel one would have to venture decently north of $10k to materially better it.

build quality, fit-and-finish, materials, etc. are off the charts -- best manufactured piece of any type gear i own.

t+a technical service / assistance is second-to-none

the DSD converter in the t+a is exceedingly good and i up-sample everything to dsd512 with roon and then send to the dac8 dsd via USB. that being said, i used the PCM converter for the first year i owned the DAC and have no complaints at all about it.

in my mind at least, the reputation of t+a is beyond reproach - YMMV

**Randy Myers** · January 5, 2021, 01:38 PM

Exactly. T+A's reputation is indeed excellent. This does not mean the others mentioned in this thread are not equally respected. Of course they are, however to gain the same level of performance you are looking at 2 to 3 times the price, at least.

In Europe, and especially in Germany T+A is considered at the top of the pinnacle. Fairly recently there have finally been reviews in major publications such as The Absolute Sound and Stereophile and every single one have been rave reviews, some exceedingly so. So yes, T+A's reputation does indeed speak for itself.

**Kingrex** · January 5, 2021, 01:52 PM

Problem with this question, as are all these type questions, is the only reference any responder has is the equipment they have put in their rack. A retail store has a bias towards equipment they carry. Its really shooting in the dark.

Makes me wonder how many DAC say T+A, Shiit, Esoteric, MSB, etc actually own and compare what they are producing to the competition. You know, what are they making a baseline too.

**Randy Myers** · January 5, 2021, 02:03 PM

I have not owned an Esoteric (although I did own one from the company that owns them, Teac) or MSB. I have however owned 14 different DACs before I finally heard the T+A. At that point the rest was history as they say.

**TheGemState** · January 5, 2021, 02:25 PM

I am in the market for a new DAC as well so I am watching this thread. T&A is on the list along with many others which have been listed here. Among the 14 DACs that you have owned, were any of them 2-3x the price of the DAC 8? I know price is not everything but quality does tend to trend with price.

Has anyone listened to the Ayon DACs and would be willing to share their experience? They are also on my list.

Thanks

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**Randy Myers** · January 5, 2021, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by TheGemState

I am in the market for a new DAC as well so I am watching this thread. T&A is on the list along with many others which have been listen here. Among the 14 DACs that you have owned, were any of them 2-3x the price of the DAC 8? I know price is not everything but quality does tend to trend with price.

No they were not. There were a few in the same range however.

**TheGemState** · January 5, 2021, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by Randy Myers

No they were not. There were a few in the same range however.

Thank you.

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**u-sound** · January 5, 2021, 04:20 PM

the t+a dac8 was released about 5 years ago and is still a fine piece for dsd.
for pcm it doesnt sound better than a good new 1k dac.
today, for 4k you get a aqua la voce s3, a complete different animal over the dac8.

that said, todays 1k dacs do sound terrific.

**Randy Myers** · January 5, 2021, 04:34 PM

It looks like a fine piece. It all comes down to what you want the most out of your digital. I always liked the sound of Burr-Brown chips (Teac, Denon, and McIntosh that I had used them), however for PCM I would tend to think the Aqua La Voce would be a better machine, being a pure R2R ladder - FPGA-based DAC. Although I do believe that you would have to go much higher than a $1k DAC to best the T+A in PCM (8 separate DAC chips, precession construction, top grade parts, etc.)

.

However for DSD the Aqua La Voce only goes up to DSD128 because it uses DSD over PCM (DoP) and not Native DSD. So as I said it comes down to what is most important. If you most care about PCM or if you want better DSD. T+A's True One Bit DSD Converter is one of the best available and they do not use DoP for any level of DSD; therefore T+A is using Native DSD (through their proprietary DSD processor) for DSD64, DSD128, DSD256, DSD512, and their higher models DSD1024. I also like that PCM and DSD do not muck each other up in that they use completely separate data paths internally!

**u-sound** · January 5, 2021, 06:12 PM

very fair points randy, it all depends on your application.

**Randy Myers** · January 5, 2021, 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by u-sound

very fair points randy, it all depends on your application.

Exactly and the Aqua La Voce looks like a very nice piece if PCM is your main use.

**Jack** · January 5, 2021, 06:47 PM

It is a very nice piece.

**Kingrex** · January 5, 2021, 06:48 PM

I don't hear Ben with Mojo Audio talk so much about chips, processors and software. He seems to focus on the power supply. If you read TAS about the Wadax, its all about the PS. Same with MSB. The power supply. Even Xymox modding modems and routers, its the power supply. Then there is the case, isolation and dampening, quality of chokes. More pieces related to power and structural integrity and noise reduction.
Just some food for thought.

**Randy Myers** · January 5, 2021, 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by Kingrex

I don't hear Ben with Mojo Audio talk so much about chips, processors and software. He seems to focus on the power supply. If you read TAS about the Wadax, its all about the PS. Same with MSB. The power supply. Even Xymox modding modems and routers, its the power supply. Then there is the case, isolation and dampening, quality of chokes. More pieces related to power and structural integrity and noise reduction.
Just some food for thought.

I am not a technical expert from the company nor a professional reviewer. T+A does talk about all of those things and more and I assume that Aqua La Voce does also. Also, all of the other companies do actually discuss the processes and processors also, in addition to power supplies and casing, etc., as does most every top notch company.

**rbbert** · January 5, 2021, 07:15 PM

my recent experience with standalone DAC's is limited to the Schitt Yggdrasil 2 (not at all what I am after, although perhaps good at its price, returned via the company's excellent return policy) and the Aqua La Scala MkII (demo courtesy of Mike), the next step up the line from the La Voce and very nice sounding, but after burn-in completely indistinguishable from my current source. Like the T+A, the Schitt is often "promoted" by users and reviewers as competitive with other DACs well above its price range; let's just say I did not find that to be even close to true, and I'm sure that contributes to my skepticism (which admittedly may be totally unwarranted) about T+A, although I would still expect it to be a significant step up from the Yggy. I strongly suspect that I will end up with the MSB Discrete or dcs Bartok once I have had a chance to listen to them; yes both are "a bit" above $10k.

**Randy Myers** · January 5, 2021, 07:36 PM

And both a highly rated machines with great reputations. A friend has the dCS and likes it (not love it). But he is a vinyl guy all the way and digital is not a big part of his normal music listening. He has mainly MBL with a very nice Basis table, going through an ARC Ref 10 phono stage. Way above my level.

I would not kick either to the curb

.... they are two names I would love to have an opportunity to try one day (especially the MSB).

**aKnyght** · January 6, 2021, 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by Kingrex

I don't hear Ben with Mojo Audio talk so much about chips, processors and software. He seems to focus on the power supply. If you read TAS about the Wadax, its all about the PS. Same with MSB. The power supply. Even Xymox modding modems and routers, its the power supply. Then there is the case, isolation and dampening, quality of chokes. More pieces related to power and structural integrity and noise reduction.
Just some food for thought.

+1

exactly ...the implementation / execution matters. the same conversion chip/circuitry implemented differently will certainly not have the same SQ characteristics.

analogously, i would expect a 300B tube to sound different in a shindo amp than in a bottlehead DIY kit.

**rbbert** · January 6, 2021, 12:33 PM

Information on a DACs construction and features is useful to determine if a given unit can do what one wants in terms of connections, compatible formats, possible upgrades, etc. It's unlikely to be useful in determining whether or not the sound of the entire unit is what a user wants or likes; only listening can determine that.

**Randy Myers** · January 6, 2021, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by rbbert

Information on a DACs construction and features is useful to determine if a given unit can do what one wants in terms of connections, compatible formats, possible upgrades, etc. It's unlikely to be useful in determining whether or not the sound of the entire unit is what a user wants or likes; only listening can determine that.

I don't disagree, however being able to listen to a variety of DACs is not at all possible for many/most people. I have listened to many, but through the expense and headaches of using a variety of units, many times having to sell them afterwards.

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