Thread: So, does the introduction of MQA change/alter your plans going forward?

Originally Posted by audiophil

I'd like to point out that this article is more than 7 months old, and doesn't take into account the introduction of software decoding by the Tidal Desktop app (I've added to your post to bring it up to speed with the times).

Besides that, Michael Lavorgna doesn't say anything that I haven't already said. An MQA file in it's 24/44 or 24/48 container can still be read by a non-MQA DAC, but it's not going to be decoded to its full encoded sample rate (88.2 or 96k). In other words, an undecoded MQA file is just another 24 bit audio file, much like those for sale @ hdtracks.com and other sites.

"but it's not going to be decoded to its full encoded sample rate (88.2 or 96k).", This is what I am thinking that yes it's not decoded fully BUT it is decoded to some extent and I am saying that you can hear that "some extent" coding.

Originally Posted by still-one

That is what it is 24/44 and it is MQA. It sounds very good too.

Originally Posted by still-one

Just to let you know my 808v6 display shows MQA 44k on this title.

Interesting, Jim. I assume you're not directly connected to your DAC and using the Tidal app for playback.

For the sake of experimentation, could you do so and select "Passthrough MQA" and report what sample rate is displayed?

Originally Posted by rbbert

USB from my laptop to the rear USB input on the Oppo. Playing hi-res files from Foobar 2000 or JRiver it does up to 24/192, and as I said I'm getting 16/44.1 now, and Windows says the device is working properly, but Tida won't let me choose the option to let the computer control things

You're having the same issue that I and Rhapsody encountered. Try plugging in another USB device into your computer with the Tidal app open and see if it forces it to recognize the Oppo.

Lampi can play MQA if the streamer can play it, so no change for me. I have to find a good streamer at some point

Originally Posted by tunes

Bob,
In settings of the desktop tidal app, if you are seeing your msb dac selected, hover the mouse/cursor over the end of that text (ie to the right of "msb dac") and a tool icon will come up that you need to click to open the box that allows you to select exclusive mode.
Chris




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Hi Chris,

Thx. My pc is seeing my msb, BUT the Tidal app does not see it.

Originally Posted by Rhapsody

"but it's not going to be decoded to its full encoded sample rate (88.2 or 96k).", This is what I am thinking that yes it's not decoded fully BUT it is decoded to some extent and I am saying that you can hear that "some extent" coding.

I've seen nothing to indicate that there is any form of "partial" decoding when relying on software, so I will continue to respectfully disagree.

Originally Posted by audiophil

I've seen nothing to indicate that there is any form of "partial" decoding when relying on software, so I will continue to respectfully disagree.

Yes on this one let's just agree to disagree

Originally Posted by still-one

I think this is where all the confusion starts and I have no definitive answer.

I am guessing if you are not using a MQA DAC and using the Tidal ap you are getting a software decoded MQA file that assumes everyone is using Generic DAC A. Since they do not know what DAC you re actually using you get some improvement in SQ but not specific for your DAC.

Exactly

Originally Posted by still-one

I am connected to Tidal thru Meridian/Sooloos. The Tidal ap has no affect on my system. There is no place to select MQA Passthrough. That must only show up it you have a USB DAC connected to your laptop.

Correct - it only shows up when directly connected to your computer. Furthermore, per Tidal's own website (again, emphasis theirs):

How can I listen to TIDAL Masters (master-quality recordings)?
All you need is a TIDAL HiFi membership to access thousands of master-quality albums only through the TIDAL desktop application.

So what I'm asking you to do is connect directly to your DAC and compare the sample rate of a file played back via the desktop application, passing the undecoded MQA file to your DAC.

I have verified that software decoding via Tidal Desktop of Iron and Wine's "Ghost on Ghost" results in 88.2k sample rate, however your findings seem to indicate that hardware decoding displays 44.1k.

I'm interested to learn if files passed directly from the Tidal Desktop to an MQA enabled DAC display the decoded sample rate (88.2) or the original container rate (44.1) when decoded on your DAC.

Originally Posted by Rhapsody

Exactly

Except that you're not using the desktop app for playback.

Originally Posted by audiophil

Correct - it only shows up when directly connected to your computer. Furthermore, per Tidal's own website (again, emphasis theirs):

How can I listen to TIDAL Masters (master-quality recordings)?
All you need is a TIDAL HiFi membership to access thousands of master-quality albums only through the TIDAL desktop application.

So what I'm asking you to do is connect directly to your DAC and compare the sample rate of a file played back via the desktop application, passing the undecoded MQA file to your DAC.

I have verified that software decoding via Tidal Desktop of Iron and Wine's "Ghost on Ghost" results in 88.2k sample rate, however your findings seem to indicate that hardware decoding displays 44.1k.

I'm interested to learn if files passed directly from the Tidal Desktop to an MQA enabled DAC display the decoded sample rate (88.2) or the original container rate (44.1) when decoded on your DAC.

I know you asked Jim this, but this is one of my points. I am NOT using a MQA dac, so even if I got my Tidal app to see my dac, it's not an MQA dac and it's never going to show anything more than what the Tidal app is decoding to, which is 24/44 or 24/48 max. If you have a MQA dac, that's a different story.

Originally Posted by audiophil

Except that you're not using the desktop app for playback.

But the file came from the desktop app and the Aurender did not do anything to it other than pass it to the dac.

Originally Posted by Rhapsody

I know you asked Jim this, but this is one of my points. I am NOT using a MQA dac, so even if I got my Tidal app to see my dac, it's not an MQA dac and it's never going to show anything more than what the Tidal app is decoding to, which is 24/44 or 24/48 max. If you have a MQA dac, that's a different story.

I'm sorry, but this is where you're simply wrong. Since the announcement of MQA on Tidal I've been listening to 88.2 and 96k files all day long. I don't have an MQA enabled DAC - I'm using Tidal's built-in software decoding.

Originally Posted by Rhapsody

But the file came from the desktop app and the Aurender did not do anything to it other than pass it to the dac.

No, you flagged the file using the Desktop App so that you could later identify it, but Aurender pulls music directly from Tidal, it does not interface with the desktop app to do so.

Originally Posted by audiophil

I'm sorry, but this is where you're simply wrong. Since the announcement of MQA on Tidal I've been listening to 88.2 and 96k files all day long. I don't have an MQA enabled DAC - I'm using Tidal's built-in software decoding.

Then we REALLY disagree I do not believe that without a MQA dac you can get anything above 24/48. Anything above that has to be hw encoded in the dac. I also think your dac is upsampling, but I would not bet a penny on that

Originally Posted by audiophil

No, you flagged the file using the Desktop App so that you could later identify it, but Aurender pulls music directly from Tidal, it does not interface with the desktop app to do so.

Yes, agreed on this.

Originally Posted by still-one

I have no way to connect my laptop to my system.

My DAC displays the original rate. Either 24, 88, 96 or 192. (I don't think I have seen 384)

If you are seeing 88 I think your DAC is upscaling.

You'll have to define original rate - what I think you mean is container bitrate, which in the case of the album we've been discussing is 44.1.

I can assure you my DAC is not upscaling, it is simply displaying the bitrate of the file being passed to it after the MQA info has been decoded by Tidal.

Originally Posted by audiophil

You'll have to define original rate - what I think you mean is container bitrate, which in the case of the album we've been discussing is 44.1.

I can assure you my DAC is not upscaling, it is simply displaying the bitrate of the file being passed to it after the MQA info has been decoded by Tidal.

This is what the MQA review says "You cannot play back an MQA encoded 24/96 file as a 24/96 file on a non-MQA DAC.
Read more at http://www.audiostream.com/content/m...pCQhb5BKC0Y.99

So how are you playing it if it says that you can't?

Originally Posted by Rhapsody

Then we REALLY disagree I do not believe that without a MQA dac you can get anything above 24/48. Anything above that has to be hw encoded in the dac. I also think your dac is upsampling, but I would not bet a penny on that

You are not correct, and I genuinely wonder what would lead you to this conclusion, other than the outdated information from AudioStream you posted earlier. My DAC doesn't upsample at all, whether playing Tidal, local files, or anything else. At this point you're simply spreading misinformation.

Originally Posted by Rhapsody

This is what the MQA review says "You cannot play back an MQA encoded 24/96 file as a 24/96 file on a non-MQA DAC.
Read more at http://www.audiostream.com/content/m...pCQhb5BKC0Y.99

So how are you playing it if it says that you can't?

Again even though this article is less than a year old, it's outdated since the release of SOFTWARE DECODING.

You might as well have said, "How can you have traveled around the world? The world is flat!"

Originally Posted by audiophil

You are not correct, and I genuinely wonder what would lead you to this conclusion, other than the outdated information from AudioStream you posted earlier. My DAC doesn't upsample at all, whether playing Tidal, local files, or anything else. At this point you're simply spreading misinformation.

Can you please show me some written information from either Tidal or ??? where it says that you can play higher than 24/48 mqa on a non mqa dac. I am only going by the written information that is available and by what my dac is reading and by the definite different in sound.

I would love to see the information that backs up your claim as that would be a good thing, I just have not either seen or experienced what you are saying, please show me something that proves me wrong....I will embrace it wholeheartedly

Originally Posted by Rhapsody

Can you please show me some written information from either Tidal or ??? where it says that you can play higher than 24/48 mqa on a non mqa dac. I am only going by the written information that is available and by what my dac is reading and by the definite different in sound.

I would love to see the information that backs up your claim as that would be a good thing, I just have not either seen or experienced what you are saying, please show me something that proves me wrong....I will embrace it wholeheartedly

It's right in the Tidal Masters FAQ - the last question:

What is the difference between HiFi quality and Master quality sound?
HiFi audio is a superior sound, but is still limited in its resolution — 44.1 kHz/16 bit.


Yet TIDAL has partnered with MQA to deliver something infinitely better: an authenticated and unbroken version (typically 96 kHz/24 bit) with the highest possible resolution — as flawless as it sounded in the mastering suite. And exactly as the artist intended it to sound.

Originally Posted by audiophil

It's right in the Tidal Masters FAQ - the last question:

What is the difference between HiFi quality and Master quality sound?
HiFi audio is a superior sound, but is still limited in its resolution — 44.1 kHz/16 bit.

Yet TIDAL has partnered with MQA to deliver something infinitely better: an authenticated and unbroken version (typically 96 kHz/24 bit) with the highest possible resolution — as flawless as it sounded in the mastering suite. And exactly as the artist intended it to sound.

Phil, sorry but that does NOT say that you can play an MQA file higher than 24/48 in a non mqa dac.

Actually looking at posts on many different forums, (AudioNirvana, Computer Audiophile, WBF etc) I can't find one person except yourself that is using a non mqa dac and is reading anything more than 24/48. I can find may 20 or 30 people saying they are doing the sw decode and are reading 24/48.

Very possible that everyone else is wrong and your are right, we will get to the answer in the coming hours or days. Shall be interesting. I'm totally fine with being wrong on this, but I would like to see just one other example either in specific writing or someone else dac that is showing more than 24/48. Then I will believe.

What is really interesting is that NOWHERE except the mentioned MQA review does either the Tidal site, the MQA site or any other review on the net, that I could find, gives any specifics on what the SW MQA decoding is capable of 23/48 etc or the max that you can get with a MQA dac.

I have not heard anywhere else that the MQA review was outdated or is wrong either. It would be nice to find some clarification on it all though.....I'm sure there will be in the near future.

Originally Posted by Rhapsody

Phil, sorry but that does NOT say that you can play an MQA file higher than 24/48 in a non mqa dac.

Actually looking at posts on many different forums, (AudioNirvana, Computer Audiophile, WBF etc) I can't find one person except yourself that is using a non mqa dac and is reading anything more than 24/48. I can find may 20 or 30 people saying they are doing the sw decode and are reading 24/48.

Very possible that everyone else is wrong and your are right, we will get to the answer in the coming hours or days. Shall be interesting. I'm totally fine with being wrong on this, but I would like to see just one other example either in specific writing or someone else dac that is showing more than 24/48. Then I will believe.

True, but it doesn't make any mention of needing an MQA enabled DAC. In fact, there is no mention of MQA enabled hardware anywhere on the Tidal website. So I find it somewhat ridiculous that Tidal would make such a big deal out of this release (and the typical bitrate) without publishing the limitations or other caveat SOMEWHERE.

What Tidal DOES make very clear is that you can only access the Master files through the desktop application.

What I can also tell you from my own experience is that software decoding allows for 88.2 and 96k files to be sent to my DAC. By selecting "Passthrough MQA" the files are not decoded, and are limited to the original container size - 44.1 or 48k. Take the time to get things working on your end and you'll see exactly what I mean. You can prove it to yourself.

I've not reviewed those forums, so I have no idea what kind of playback chain those people are using. Perhaps they're all using a Lumin or Aurender?

Originally Posted by audiophil

True, but it doesn't make any mention of needing an MQA enabled DAC. In fact, there is no mention of MQA enabled hardware anywhere on the Tidal website. So I find it somewhat ridiculous that Tidal would make such a big deal out of this release (and the typical bitrate) without publishing the limitations or other caveat SOMEWHERE.

What Tidal DOES make very clear is that you can only access the Master files through the desktop application.

What I can also tell you from my own experience is that software decoding allows for 88.2 and 96k files to be sent to my DAC. By selecting "Passthrough MQA" the files are not decoded, and are limited to the original container size - 44.1 or 48k. Take the time to get things working on your end and you'll see exactly what I mean. You can prove it to yourself.

I've not reviewed those forums, so I have no idea what kind of playback chain those people are using. Perhaps they're all using a Lumin or Aurender?

No, on Computer Audiophile, no one is using Aurender or Lumin, they are using all types of setups, with all types of screen shots etc and no one shows higher than 24/48 with a non mqa dac.

Totally open to being wrong and sorry but my Tidal app will not communicate with my dac???

Originally Posted by rbbert

Are you guys arguing about what goes through the Aurender, or about the Tidal desktop app in general? Because Steve Stone's post at Audio Circle (linked a long time ago now, about 5 days LOL) specifically discussed the app allowing up to 24/96 through any DAC; higher res only with a MQA-DAC. BTW I think I have my setup working now, but have only had a chance to compare one album to its hi-res download equivalent. More later

Thank goodness, I was beginning to think I was alone in this world.

Also, I did a very quick cursory search and found plenty of people playing Tidal Masters with 88.2 and 96k resolution WITHOUT MQA enabled DAS. Here's one example. Read through the thread here.

"...For my PC Tidal app when connected to my Chord Mojo via USB, I can see that Beyonce/2L/Bruno Mars were playing back at 88kHz whereas The Doors/Buena Vista Social Club were playing at 96kHz. The switching of sample rates is automatic. Playing regular Tidal HiFi files are still 44.1kHz. I think we will all have some learning curves getting Tidal Masters working for our own systems."

Originally Posted by audiophil

Thank goodness, I was beginning to think I was alone in this world.

Also, I did a very quick cursory search and found plenty of people playing Tidal Masters with 88.2 and 96k resolution WITHOUT MQA enabled DAS. Here's one example. Read through the thread here.

"...For my PC Tidal app when connected to my Chord Mojo via USB, I can see that Beyonce/2L/Bruno Mars were playing back at 88kHz whereas The Doors/Buena Vista Social Club were playing at 96kHz. The switching of sample rates is automatic. Playing regular Tidal HiFi files are still 44.1kHz. I think we will all have some learning curves getting Tidal Masters working for our own systems."

Yep, there are some good examples. It seems like you have to be connected directly from the Tidal desktop app to your dac, which is what you have been saying, and which I have not been able to do. I will work on that and get the Tidal app talking to my dac, then I guess it would show the higher rates.

I understand that 24/48 is not the full monte of the mqa decoding, but I still maintain that 24/48 is has been mqa decoded.

Let me work on the pc to dac connection.

Originally Posted by audiophil

Thank goodness, I was beginning to think I was alone in this world.

Also, I did a very quick cursory search and found plenty of people playing Tidal Masters with 88.2 and 96k resolution WITHOUT MQA enabled DAS. Here's one example. Read through the thread here.

"...For my PC Tidal app when connected to my Chord Mojo via USB, I can see that Beyonce/2L/Bruno Mars were playing back at 88kHz whereas The Doors/Buena Vista Social Club were playing at 96kHz. The switching of sample rates is automatic. Playing regular Tidal HiFi files are still 44.1kHz. I think we will all have some learning curves getting Tidal Masters working for our own systems."

I am also getting 24/88 or 24/96 through my non-mqa dac.


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Originally Posted by tunes

I am also getting 24/88 or 24/96 through my non-mqa dac.


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Thx Chris, for some reason I can't get the tidal app to recognize the dac. The computer does, but the Tidal app will play through the computer and dac, but I can't the Tidal settings to show the exclusive mode stuff.....will keep trying....thx

Ok! From the slow learner here and the spreader of bad information - I got the desktop Tidal app to pay through the msb non mqa dac. It shows 32/88K on the dac on the Iron and Wine.

Through the Aurender all you see is 24/48.

After just a few quick listens to a few tracks off of 3 albums, Iron and Wine, Joni Mitchel and James Taylor the 32/88 coming directly from the Tidal desktop app connected via usb to the msb non-mqa dac vs. the 24/48 same Masters tracks that were favorited over to the Aurender from the desktop, there again is a NOTICEABLE difference.

The 24/48 still seems to have the same sonic signature and is definitely vinyl type sounding to me, but the 32/88 from the desktop app takes it to another level. Maybe 25% better?...which is a lot. It's more fuller sounding and has less of an edge to the sound.

Andy, from the forum is going to bring over his Brooklyn DAC and we are going to see what an MQA dac sounds like now vs. the 32/88 from the computer, which is now the premium MQA sound that I am getting.

Thx Phil and Chris, appreciate it.

Boy, I'm exhausted just following all of this, but am glad to see that Bob was finally able to get the Tidal desktop app to see his MSB DAC! Good team work!!!

Phil, Although I am playing from the Tidal Desktop/Masters and connected to the msb dac and the dac read 32/88 in the Tidal desktop app I still can't get it to show exclusive or passthrough mode. But it's playing 32/88K on the dac????? Does this mean because the Tidal app is not recognizing (even though it's playing from the app to the dac) that it's still not MQA?

Originally Posted by audio.bill

Boy, I'm exhausted just following all of this, but am glad to see that Bob was finally able to get the Tidal desktop app to see his MSB DAC! Good team work!!!

Yes, but I still don't think I have it

Originally Posted by Rhapsody

Phil, Although I am playing from the Tidal Desktop/Masters and connected to the msb dac and the dac read 32/88 in the Tidal desktop app I still can't get it to show exclusive or passthrough mode. But it's playing 32/88K on the dac????? Does this mean because the Tidal app is not recognizing (even though it's playing from the app to the dac) that it's still not MQA?

Pull up the settings and go to the streaming tab. Hover next to your DAC and select the settings gear. Select "Use Exclusive" and disable "Passthrough MQA".

Originally Posted by audiophil

Pull up the settings and go to the streaming tab. Hover next to your DAC and select the settings gear. Select "Use Exclusive" and disable "Passthrough MQA".

Yeah, I know that and for some reason my pc/win10 will NOT show my msb dac. I just pulled out my MacAir and it worked fine, checked all three boxes, triend Iron and Wine and it came up as 24.44.....geezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. But now I have the Apple seeing it so I will play with it to get the higher rates....thank you!

Originally Posted by Rhapsody

Yeah, I know that and for some reason my pc/win10 will NOT show my msb dac. I just pulled out my MacAir and it worked fine, checked all three boxes, triend Iron and Wine and it came up as 24.44.....geezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. But now I have the Apple seeing it so I will play with it to get the higher rates....thank you!

Duh....I had the Passthrough MQA box checked. I now have 24/88 with Iron/Wine......just like I told you the whole time, not sure why you wouldn't listen to me

Glad to hear you got it sorted Bob. Now you can go back to exploring the albums in tidal's masters catalog


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Originally Posted by tunes

Glad to hear you got it sorted Bob. Now you can go back to exploring the albums in tidal's masters catalog


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thx Chris. I hate Phil I was having the best time with my 24/48, I thought I was in heaven. Back up- four days ago, I was TOTALLY happy listening to Tidal streaming at 16/44.1.....I listened to it for hours every day, was in love with it and the music.

Then comes 24/48 and it sent me into a tizzy....but I had to go and fav the titles on the pc and reload on the Aurender, BUT to play back music I was still using my Ipad, which I love.

Now, today....f'ing Phil Now I can't listen to the 24/48 via the Aurender. Now I have to use my Mac with a long, cheap usb cable, right back to where I was five years ago......EXCEPT that 24/96 from the Desktop app has to be heard to be appreciated, I'm not even going to try and explain what it sounds like. But now it's probably the only way that I will listen until I get the mqa module for my dac. Then I should be able to pass the files through the Aurender and decode them completely in the dac. Everyone should hear it for themselves and decide in their situation, system and preferences.

What a day.....hey Phil....thank you....not just a % difference, it took it up to a different experience.....thx again for the endurance.