Thread: Least expensive and best way to stream music to a DAC???

Curious what you guys think is the best and least expensive solution for sound quality. I know there's a myriad of answers but hopefully I can find something that won't cost an arm and a leg.

Lumin U2 mini (upcoming) could be very interesting.
Aside from that, Aurender N200.
Innuos ZEN mini mk3


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My experience with Lumin has been great. I agree with Mike on the U2 mini, I just don't think you can go wrong with their gear.

I've also done Roon ROCK (wasn't thrilled), the PS Audio DSD bridge (great but part of an ecosystem), various Squeezebox devices including Transporter (no longer made), and some others I don't remember at this point. Of them, Lumin has consistently given me the best SQ and user experience. Go X1 and you have a great DAC as well, but at a cost although it replaces another component and cables.

Joe

Right now it may be the iFi Zen Stream and then if you want later add an upgraded power supply from them or someone else.

Joe

Bluesound Node @ $599 and use one of your many wonderful DAC's if/when you don't like the on board dac.



NODE - Bluesound

then again, you already own the NAD C 658 streamer so I guess you are not looking at a cheap option??

Have you used your Topping and RME DAC's with the NAD?

I love both the Topping and especially my RME dacs. Both are killer. I like the NAD but my brother wants it so this gives me an opportunity to play with something else.

Cheapest decent streamer is a Raspberry Pi with the Pi2AES hat and RopieeeXL software. This will give you AES, S/PDIF coax, USB. All outputs work simultaneously. High performance TCXO clocks. About $350 to $375 all in depending on power supply, case, etc. Takes a bit of assembly work to get set up and running. Pi2AES now has a unit called the Mercury which requires no assembly or fiddling. Not out yet, I think preordering is open. $500.

I have no idea how it compares with more expensive solutions from others.

Please keep the awesome information coming. I sincerely appreciate it. I’ve been out of the loop for a while and normally I’d spend serious money on something hoping for the right answer. My situation has changed a little and I’d like to experiment without breaking the bank.

I still have a U1 mini that I was thinking about selling and getting the upcoming U2 (mini?). All your suggestions have me thinking about alternatives. Thank you for that.

I listen to a lot of stations/streams in addition to the major services that aren’t as easily accessible via the software. My modified Sonos does a better job in that respect, but the same quality isn’t there for several reasons.

Originally Posted by joeinid

I listen to a lot of stations/streams in addition to the major services that aren’t as easily accessible via the software. My modified Sonos does a better job in that respect, but the same quality isn’t there for several reasons.

Laptop>usb>DAC
I use an Audioengine D2 (24/96 wireless bit transfer) instead of a physical cable.
But it in one of the greatest tragedies in human history, they appear to have discontinued it.
I'd have to research who makes an equivalent, not sure ATM.

cheers,

AJ

Originally Posted by Alkyogre

A computer has in general a poor audioclock, a poor powersupply and alot of electronical distortion.

No. That has zero to do with what I suggested. There is no such boogiemen, distortion, etc. at optical output of the D2 whatsoever, the speaker input (the DAC part) or speaker output>ears. All measurable electrically and verifiable perceptually in the really real world.
I also have zero doubt all those things exist as beliefs in audiophile minds. Also measurable, but with very different methods. YMMV.

cheers,

AJ

Originally Posted by joeinid

My situation has changed a little and I’d like to experiment without breaking the bank.

I listen to a lot of stations/streams in addition to the major services that aren’t as easily accessible via the software.

Less than $250, allows you to stream anything on internet via a laptop Wireless USB DAC 2 - NAD Electronics in absolutely pristine SQ coming out of your Topping etc DAC.
Seems to be near identical to Audioengine, which I just used at Flexpo to rave reviews...and dead silent background from 97+ db speakers. Have real technical knowledge helps with demonstrable facts.

cheers,

AJ

Lots of great suggestions here. I see the UI and plug and play setup being big differentiators.

At this point I’ll add:

If you use USB then the DAC’s clock determines the overall noise/jitter/etc performance. But not all DAC USB implementations are created equal, especially wrt to eliminating noise on the USB power, ground, and data lines. So there’s that.

If you are using AES, S/PDIF then the server’s clock determines the DAC’s timing and jitter. So throwing money at high quality clocks may heighten your musical enjoyment.

Pi’s and hats: the Pi/Pi2AES hat I recommended is galvanically isolated at its Ethernet input and AES/SPDIF digital outputs. USB outputs by definition are not galvanically isolated because they are powered. There are a lot of commercial USB power isolators that are very effective. These can be included in the streamer and sometimes are.

There is a is a 90% chance that a linear power supply is directly feeding a switcher in your server/bridge/switch/interface digital chain.

I would love to see a streamer shootout like Grasshopper did with DACs. That would be great fun!

Hmmm, isn't it audiophiles that swear by "listening", not measurements??
Well, lets see what "listening" with "use your ears" says:
AES E-Library >> Theoretical and Audible Effects of Jitter on Digital Audio Quality

the lowest level of jitter to be audible was around 10 ns (rms). This was on a 17 kHz sine wave test signal. With music, no listeners found jitter audible at levels lower than 20 ns.

Detection threshold for distortions due to jitter on digital audio

Professional audio engineers, sound engineers, audio critics and semi-professional musicians participated as listeners. The listeners were allowed to use their own listening environments and their favorite sound materials. It was shown that the detection threshold for random jitter was several hundreds ns for well-trained listeners under their preferable listening conditions.

IOW, only something completely broken (or "audiophile 'design'") could remotely approach audible jitter.
Never mind that analog vinyl/tape tec has 1000x more timing and distortion errors...and audiophile love the sound of that.
lol

This is an interesting phenomenon - the mass delusion of thousands of music and equipment lovers into believing that certain things are real when it has been scientifically proven that this is indeed not the case. Funny how these same delusional people have some of the finest sounding systems I've had the pleasure to audition. Coincidence, or paranormal phenomenon? Inquiring minds want to know.

Originally Posted by nicoff

That paper is from 1998. And 24 years later the term "jitter" is still being thrown around in audiophile circles as if it were a big deal. Yet another example of the boogeymen that still live in the audiophile world!

Yes, usually worlds apart from the real one. However, just because a laptop>usb transfer is, in the real word, free of audible boogeymen, doesn't mean there's no place for dedicated (streamer etc) boxes in the shrine. Folks have different wants and needs beyond audible/fidelity, so to each their own. Some users will find such products more user friendly, etc.
For me personally, a large (vs on a box) screen with a physical keyboard (vs say tablet virtual) are desirable and ergonomic, along with the ability to stream anything, regardless of how obscure, on the internet.
Others like to be tethered to whatever their box can/can't do. YMMV.
Different strokes for different folks. Joe was pretty clear, to me, about cost though. We know exactly how that affects worlds/multitudes Just a moment...

cheers,

AJ

Is the suggestion here that a $250 streamer sounds as good as a $24,000 streamer?


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Originally Posted by Mike

Is the suggestion here that a $250 streamer sounds as good as a $24,000 streamer?

What comes out of Joes DACs will be free of audible noise and "jitter", with that $250 bit transfer device in the chain.
Should have dead silence even with 97+ db speakers...unless some other device adds noise.
Which "stream" sounds as "good/better" etc is up to the beholder. It most certainly won't be because of real jitter, etc, etc. or lack thereof.

cheers,

AJ

Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield

What comes out of Joes DACs will be free of audible noise and "jitter", with that $250 bit transfer device in the chain.
Should have dead silence even with 97+ db speakers...unless some other device adds noise.
Which "stream" sounds as "good/better" etc is up to the beholder. It most certainly won't be because of real jitter, etc, etc. or lack thereof.

cheers,

AJ

You may want to talk to John.


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Not Jeeves???
Chait?

Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield

Not Jeeves???
Chait?

Yes, Chait. He was one of 7 that participated in our super server shootout. No, I won’t post the results, WAY too much butt hurt happens, but the differences were clear as day. Same power cord, same USB, plugged into same conditioner, same exact everything.


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Originally Posted by Mike

Yes, Chait. He was one of 7 that participated in our super server shootout. No, I won’t post the results, WAY too much butt hurt happens, but the differences were clear as day. Same power cord, same USB, plugged into same conditioner, same exact everything.

I have no doubt about that purely subjective assessment, which is completely unrelated to the questions/discussion of this thread.
My doubt is that there is an iota of evidence that a laptop>$250 bit transfer will have "noise", "jitter", etc, which are verifiable (and dismissible) objective claims.
Joe wasn't asking about $24k streamers, but inexpensive ways to stream anything on net. I think I (and others) addressed both his question and the specious mongering that ensued.
That shootout deserves its own thread!

cheers,

AJ

Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield

I have no doubt about that purely subjective assessment, which is completely unrelated to the questions/discussion of this thread.
My doubt is that there is an iota of evidence that a laptop>$250 bit transfer will have "noise", "jitter", etc, which are verifiable (and dismissible) objective claims.
Joe wasn't asking about $24k streamers, but inexpensive ways to stream anything on net. I think I (and others) addressed both his question and the specious mongering that ensued.
That shootout deserves its own thread!

cheers,

AJ

Yes, something simple to feed his new amp/DAC works. I’m curious about the new Lumin U2 mini. Bet it will be great.


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I experienced huge differences in my system based on streaming source. I even experienced major differences day to day, and even by rebooting my nuc running roon. I had been a major skeptic of this prior to my experiences. I wound up with an expensive solution, but my research here and elsewhere pointed toward Lumin as being the way to go from a value perspective. The rest of your system warrants it.

Originally Posted by nicoff

A $24,000 streamer? Wow!
The law of diminishing returns certainly applies here. Otherwise, the $24k streamer would have to be 9,500% better than the $250 one!

People with the means are willing to achieve small gains at great costs. Not just in audio but in many hobbies.

What's the ratio for $250k speakers, or $180k amps, or $100k DACs, and so on.

Originally Posted by nicoff

A $24,000 streamer? Wow!

In a "Least expensive and best way to stream music to a DAC???" thread.
Next up, a thread lamenting why younger folks have zero interest in "High end" audio and how inexpensive "Mid-Fi" stuff creates noise, jitter, etc drama inside some heads.
Poor Joe, he should have known better!

cheers,

AJ

Originally Posted by jmusica

People with the means are willing to achieve small gains at great costs.

To them.

cheers,

AJ

HiFi Critic magazine just reviewed the iFi Audio Zen Stream. "It's remarkably good."

Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield

In a "Least expensive and best way to stream music to a DAC???" thread.
Next up, a thread lamenting why younger folks have zero interest in "High end" audio and how inexpensive "Mid-Fi" stuff creates noise, jitter, etc drama inside some heads.
Poor Joe, he should have known better!

cheers,

AJ

LoL

I know but there’s been a lot great recommendations, thank you

Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield

In a "Least expensive and best way to stream music to a DAC???" thread.
Next up, a thread lamenting why younger folks have zero interest in "High end" audio and how inexpensive "Mid-Fi" stuff creates noise, jitter, etc drama inside some heads.
Poor Joe, he should have known better!

cheers,

AJ

The point was, there is a big difference sonically between a $250 streamer and a $24,000 streamer. But for those searching for a budget streamer, rock on.


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The conversion of Ethernet packet based data to AES or USB should be a super simple task any low powered computer can handle. I’d love to hear a good streamer in my system and compare it to what I’ve built. Hard to do in the boonies.

I always get confused reading these threads and hope some will indulge me. Confused as to just what class(es) of devices "we" are talking about.

When we say "streamer" and not "streamer/player" I imagine we're NOT talking about something with a dac built in.

The input side is easy; I assume the input is ethernet (or wifi if necessary) from the home network.

But what about the output? For connection to a dac -- direct "digital" connection we're talking usb or some flavor of s/pdif or maybe optical?

But then there is another class of product, e.g. the Roon Nucleus, who's output is on the home network and thus 'serves' or some say 'streams' to a streamer/player.

My personal interest is only in this latter class of products, as my Naim ND555 is a "streamer/player" and while it accepts an s/pdif input I'm happy to use its streamer front-end. It's here that I'm really interested in learning which products might provide the best networked music connection to my streamer/player.

Originally Posted by Bart001

I always get confused reading these threads and hope some will indulge me. Confused as to just what class(es) of devices "we" are talking about.

When we say "streamer" and not "streamer/player" I imagine we're NOT talking about something with a dac built in.

The input side is easy; I assume the input is ethernet (or wifi if necessary) from the home network.

But what about the output? For connection to a dac -- direct "digital" connection we're talking usb or some flavor of s/pdif or maybe optical?

But then there is another class of product, e.g. the Roon Nucleus, who's output is on the home network and thus 'serves' or some say 'streams' to a streamer/player.

My personal interest is only in this latter class of products, as my Naim ND555 is a "streamer/player" and while it accepts an s/pdif input I'm happy to use its streamer front-end. It's here that I'm really interested in learning which products might provide the best networked music connection to my streamer/player.

Bart, I prefer to use the term “Network Transport” for a device which streams music from LAN/WAN services to an external DAC and “streamer” as a device that is all-in-one (streamer/DAC, like Lumin X1).

As for our ND555’s, let me save you the trouble. After a lot of conversations with technical folks at Naim UK, the ethernet + NAIM app is their recommended combo (best sounding). The BNC/SPDIF connections were not designed/implemented to the level of the ethernet connection.

Also, in a shootout, the NAIM Uniti Core beat my Synology 1812+ NAS.

I was able to substantially improve on things by adding the Nordost QNET + Nordost QSource + Premium LEMO cable. I’m using a Shunyata Sigma NRv2 power cable plugged into the AudioQuest Niagara 7000 (it’s closest to where the QNET is). Cables are Shunyata Omega Ethernet and Wireworld Starlight 8 ethernet. I was able to go back and forth quickly between the QNET/QSource and my Netgear switch and heard a dramatic improvement. If I didn’t, I would have taken it back to the store. But I heard a substantial improvement and had to order another setup for the store!

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Originally Posted by Mike

The point was, there is a big difference sonically between a $250 streamer and a $24,000 streamer.

I understood your point, but I also understood Joe's point was asking for the least expensive and best way to stream music to a DAC...and that's all I was answering, including objective objections to my specific suggested method.
More that one way to "stream music to a DAC", a "streamer" stand alone box being one of those options.
Yeah $24k ones too. Beauty being in the eye of the beholder

I am going to suggest, and pretty much what the finest Server/DAC combo money can buys suggests (that is Wadax by the way, their best system is way north of $200k). What I do and what they suggest is to store your music locally only. Do not store it on a NAS and send the signal through a computer network to the server. Send the signal out of the server directly to the DAC. Wadax come equip only with USB output to the DAC, but they offer a new proprietary optical setup ($17,000 +) that will only work from their new top server to their top DAC. They do offer an optional SPIDIF interface for those who insist on going that route, but they do not suggest it.

A custom-built PC server can do a pretty fine job (not WADAX level of course ). As Wadax suggests and includes, I use Roon. I output Roon to HQPlayer for even finer playback. If you want to use a streaming service, this can be accomplished through Roon.

Thanks Mike! That vocabulary works for me And yes I've had zero thoughts of using its digital input; the network streamer front-end of the ND555 seems fabulous and a nice step up from the previous generation.

I've thus far audibly improved the ND555 setup with an Ansuz switch and D2 ethernet cable and C2 AC cable. I agree that a "hi fi switch" located adjacent the ND555 makes an audible improvement. Mine sure did.

I'm still using a Roon Nucleus "server." That's the last piece I'm wondering about -- whether (leaving aside Roon vs. pure UPnP etc) the Nucleus can be bettered audibly by swapping it for an undoubtedly more-expensive "server." We're rather happy with our digital playback so I've not been very motivated to do a listening test with different servers.

Given that my Roon Nucleus is about 2-3 years old and fully paid for, I'll forgo building my own now, especially as I'm pretty clumsy with hardware builds.

I'm interested in the other end of the spectrum, whether a server can meaningfully improve on what a Nucleus sounds like over a home ethernet network.

Originally Posted by Alkyogre

Those expensive pc's are used as Roon Bridge, not as Roon server.

That's pretty much what I've gleaned from looking at the products and how people use them. Few people on the forums run an integrated networked-streamer/player like I do.

wow I love this thread. I tried all sorts of ways trying to send info from my computer in one room to the dac and/or stereo in another and used all sorts of approaches and read all sorts of threads in obviously inferior message boards online. Then I bought the entry level aurender, connected it via usb to the dac, fired up the conductor app and like magic it worked perfectly. I have upgraded it since to the big brother Aurender but the fact remains it worked great and now I can spend more time on the best message board online :-).

Originally Posted by Alkyogre

Those expensive pc's are used as Roon Bridge, not as Roon server.

Reading this three brands come to my mind, none of them fit this description, especially the line that starts at EUR24K. (Edit: After posting this I realized this is off topic as it becomes the most expensive way rather than the last expensive way as originally intended.)

Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield

In a "Least expensive and best way to stream music to a DAC???" thread.
Next up, a thread lamenting why younger folks have zero interest in "High end" audio and how inexpensive "Mid-Fi" stuff creates noise, jitter, etc drama inside some heads.
Poor Joe, he should have known better!

cheers,

AJ

Makes no sense at all. For me its my cheap little Ipad controlled Lumin > directly to my router. Makes me happy.