Thread: Intel NUC music server incoming

Originally Posted by Elberoth

1. Your "authentic" Nucleus uses generic Intel board. Intel specs are clear:

DC Input Voltage Supported: 12-19 VDC

There is no advantage from going with 19VDC. If anything, voltage needs to be dropped even more (MoBo subsystems work on 3.3V, 5V and 12V).

2. Power supplies are regulated. If your linear power supply can't hold the voltage at rated current, they you bought yourself a garbage, not a decent PSU. The LHY Audio PSU I have linked has zero problems supplying 4A @ 12V of instantaneous current. It is more than enough for any Nucleus.

3. Nucleus+ draws only 0.66A @ 12V while playing music in native format (no upsampling) and 0.72A @ 12V while playing music with 2x PCM upsampling and DSP switched on. At no point it will go past 2A @ 12V while using Roon (unless you dress it with 4 external HDD drives like a chrismass tree AND load the CPU with DSD512 upsampling on top). In any case - you can always switch on the Power Sense feature in the BIOS settings, which will throttle the CPU down when it senses the PSU cannot keep up.

There are many people using SBooster PSUs with the Nucleus+ with ZERO issues (no DSD512 upsampling) and those are rated @ 2A/12V.

Regular Nucleus (non-Plus) uses even less current that that.

FACTS.

Very useful info, Adam, thanks.

Bad news: Intel stops producing Nucs. In future we need to change to an alternative motherboard in a fanless case, Roon Nucleus included.

Originally Posted by Darrel

I read that the other day and thought that it might be a good thing. Intel must realize they can't compete with all of the mini computers available today coming from China. Or Intel may have to rethink their own small form computers.

Chinese pc's are indeed an alternative for the nuc. In fact: aliexpress has alot of clones, which also will do perfect for audio and which are already dedicated fanless. Buy one of these and you have a fanless mini pc for half the price of a nuc with Akasa case. I already tried one as Roon core and compared it with the usual fanless nuc and did not hear any difference in sound quality.

Originally Posted by Alkyogre

Bad news: Intel stops producing Nucs. In future we need to change to an alternative motherboard in a fanless case, Roon Nucleus included.

What about this-?

ASUS Z390-I ROG Strix Gaming Intel LGA 1151 mini ITX motherboard
CPU: Intel Core i9-9900K

Press Release from Intel:
Goodbye, Intel NUCs: production stops but partners carry the torch | TechSpot

Originally Posted by Puma Cat

What about this-?

ASUS Z390-I ROG Strix Gaming Intel LGA 1151 mini ITX motherboard
CPU: Intel Core i9-9900K

Press Release from Intel:
Goodbye, Intel NUCs: production stops but partners carry the torch | TechSpot

Great idea, but good you ask this, because you made the same beginners mistake I did. The problem is the choice of the Intel Core i9-9900K. The problem is that the TDP for your core is far too high, resulting in an overheated pc. Intel has 3 core classes, the normal, the K and the T. For fanless builds a TDP below 45W is required, that means normally Intels T build processors. Secondly: an i7 will do for audio and as long you don't convert to DSD i5 and maybe i3 is also possible. But most important is that the TDP is below 45W and that it fits on the motherboard.

About the case: I did use a Streacom case for the mini ITX board, this one is perfect and there are more audio pc builders who use it FC8 – Fanless Mini-ITX Case – Streacom. With my build: with an Asus 560i gaming I had a second problem: there was a large heatsink on it which will block the assembly of the Streacom heatpipe, which could be solved with an extra Streacom HT4. That having said: I don't advise a gaming motherboard like the Asus at all. Next time I will build one I go for the brand SuperMicro. It is not the cheapest one, but perfect for audio.

Originally Posted by wklie

Outside of Intel NUC, the success of running ROCK is significantly decreased due to lack of drivers (primarily LAN, sometimes there were also BIOS issues). Successful cases are called MOCK, you'll need to search for MOCK in Roon forum.

If you want a fanless build with a powerful CPU, that'd usually be more difficult unless the box is fanless to begin with.

If you don't have to use ROCK, then you're free to use Windows or Linux (e.g. Ubuntu), but that loses the "appliance" appeal of Roon OS.

(Note: Nucleus is the same as ROCK on NUC7 but with additional thermal management for Nucleus fanless chassis.)

There is also the possibility not to install Rock at all, and install Roon on a normal linux distro. What also is possible is to buy and install audiolinux.

Originally Posted by Alkyogre

Great idea, but good you ask this, because you made the same beginners mistake I did. The problem is the choice of the Intel Core i9-9900K. The problem is that the TDP for your core is far too high, resulting in an overheated pc. Intel has 3 core classes, the normal, the K and the T. For fanless builds a TDP below 45W is required, that means normally Intels T build processors. Secondly: an i7 will do for audio and as long you don't convert to DSD i5 and maybe i3 is also possible. But most important is that the TDP is below 45W and that it fits on the motherboard.

About the case: I did use a Streacom case for the mini ITX board, this one is perfect and there are more audio pc builders who use it FC8 – Fanless Mini-ITX Case – Streacom. With my build: with an Asus 560i gaming I had a second problem: there was a large heatsink on it which will block the assembly of the Streacom heatpipe, which could be solved with an extra Streacom HT4. That having said: I don't advise a gaming motherboard like the Asus at all. Next time I will build one I go for the brand SuperMicro. It is not the cheapest one, but perfect for audio.

Just to be clear, I didn't use this board, this was used in Nenon's DIY build. It was built in a Streacom case, as you recommend.
Referenced here: Building a DIY Music Server - Music Servers - Audiophile Style

Sorry, but I don't know what the acronym "TDP" stands for.

Thank you, though, for the information you've provided, it's useful. This entire domain of "DIY" music servers is all new to me, so any info is helpful. Cheers.

Originally Posted by wklie

That looks like an ideal ROCK setup.

I've recently posted this to another forum in response for a ROCK build question:


As for what is the "best" for RAAT network streaming, I had a few users who reported improvements going from Windows 10 to ROCK, but I'm sure this is not going to be universal for everybody with different setup and network environment. And note that the EUR28k Roon server runs Custom Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC 2019 OS.

When/if you have tried different OS, please report.

Many thanks, Peter. You not only provide outstanding and responsive support to Lumin owners, but IMHO, your, Almar's and Adam's domain knowledge and experience for this specific domain of "high-end music servers" are a real asset to this community. 👏

Originally Posted by Elberoth

One problem I see with building those around 13-gen NUC is the max TDP of the CPU.

Intel 13-gen CPUs became very powerful at a cost: high power usage and high heat dissapation.

NUC 13-gen i3 max TDP is 55W and NUC i7 is a ... 64W. Now compare that to only 15W and 28W for the original Roon Nucleus/Nucleus+.

This has consequences on both the increased heat dissapation (may easily overwhelm the passive case) and PSU requirements. This is the reason why those NUCs are shipped with a brick that is rated over 6A @ 19V (120W). That is 10A @ 12V! TEN amps!

There is no ultra low nosie (audiophile) PSU that I know of that is able to support that much current. A PSU with 6A @ 19V (120W) output capability would be both big and expensive.

So you will most likely have to stick to the stock PSU, which is a limiting factor, and will not be able to upgrade. You have gained sth you don't really need (all the extra computing power which will go to waste) and lost sth which was actually valuable.

IMO the older boards Roon keeps using for the Nucleus (at least for the i7) really have the best combination of CPU computing speed / current draw / heat dissipation for this application.

According to intel TDP is 35W for the 13i7/13i5 and 20W for the 13i3, which is still very good for a fanless nuc and not 55W and 64W, which is too high.

Access Denied

Originally Posted by Elberoth

One problem I see with building those around 13-gen NUC is the max TDP of the CPU.

Intel 13-gen CPUs became very powerful at a cost: high power usage and high heat dissapation.

NUC 13-gen i3 max TDP is 55W and NUC i7 is a ... 64W. Now compare that to only 15W and 28W for the original Roon Nucleus/Nucleus+.

This has consequences on both the increased heat dissapation (may easily overwhelm the passive case) and PSU requirements. This is the reason why those NUCs are shipped with a brick that is rated over 6A @ 19V (120W). That is 10A @ 12V! TEN amps!

There is no ultra low nosie (audiophile) PSU that I know of that is able to support that much current. A PSU with 6A @ 19V (120W) output capability would be both big and expensive.

So you will most likely have to stick to the stock PSU, which is a limiting factor, and will not be able to upgrade. You have gained sth you don't really need (all the extra computing power which will go to waste) and lost sth which was actually valuable.

IMO the older boards Roon keeps using for the Nucleus (at least for the i7) really have the best combination of CPU computing speed / current draw / heat dissipation for this application.

What does the acronym "TDP" mean?

Originally Posted by Elberoth

Thermal Design Power (TDP) represents the average power, in watts, the processor dissipates when operating.

Thanks, Adam.

Originally Posted by Bones13

I agree that a computer, of any sort, that has its USB connected to a DAC, or streamer, would greatly benefit from a number of factors, as you mentioned. Hence the huge difference when I switched from a simple USB cord coming from my PC, years ago, to the earliest microRendu. Transformative!

I remember when I did that with my mR back in 2016, and I was fairly shocked at the improvement that provided. It took me a while to understand, from an engineering/networking/audio quality perspective, why the sound quality was so much better.

Originally Posted by Bones13

Yep, only power, and Ethernet plugged into the NUC.

Same for me, with the exception I have an external USB-powered hard drive connected to one of it's USB ports, where the music files reside. Something I need to try is whether using an audio-grade USB cable here would result in an audible improvement in audio quality, but given this is the "high-end", nothing would surprise me.

I also need to look into whether I can install an SSD inside the case itself. There are some mounting holes on the bottom of the chassis for doing this, it appears.

I also have a Shunyata Alpha USB CGC (chassis grounding cable) connecting one of the unused USB ports to the Altaira-based ground-plane noise reduction (GP-NR) subsystem of my Gemini power distributor. This made for a notable reduction in the noise-floor (as did connecting EtherREGEN to Gemini's Altaira-type subsystem). You can see it here on the right side of Alita (the name for my Akasa NUC), to the right of the Ethernet cable. This is an Alpha ground cable with a VTx-Ag USB "tail" snapped on.

Originally Posted by Elberoth

For all those that want build a Nuc in a fanless case and still have the option to upgrade the PSU in the future, I strongly recommend sticking with 8 or 10th gen i3 boards or 7, 8 or 10th gen i7 boards.

Using newer boards is counterproductive.

One important addition from me about the 10th generation nucs in the Akasa turing case A-NUC52-M1B. This case is the only available case, but there is an annoying problem installing it. It drove me crazy, and finally I found it how to fix. The thing is that at some generation 10 nucs, the case button isn't touching a small power button which is located just below the motherboard. So in other words: when building in some nucs they will not power on. Instead you hit a very tight knob, which is touching the motherboard instead of the small power button.

When finding what the problem was, the fix is easy. The Akasa power button simply has to fall deeper in the motherboard so it is able to press the nuc power button. So to reach that I took a file and carefully removed a very thin layer from the motherboard on both sides next to the power button. Carefully not touching the button with the file and not going to deep to avoid removing the metal parts. It worked and via this way the on/off mechanism is repaired. It is an easy job, not a reason not to buy a gen 10 nuc.

Originally Posted by Elberoth

After some trial and error, extra parts and some work, I'm now able to offer NUC 10i7 in Akasa Plato case:

IMG_6331.jpg

Much more attractive than the Turing and no power button issues.

Which plato did you take?

I prefer turing, because the passive cooling is better, and for that reason I am sure that DSD conversion with HQPlayer will fail with a Plato. The power button is a fixable minority for me.

On the other hand, I think with the plato the internal power supply could be replaced by an audiophilic one.

Originally Posted by Elberoth

For DSD512 upsampling with HQ Player, you need to build a dedicated server, using a destktop MoBo and CPU as those are very CPU computing power intensive. Or a dedicated high power server and an endpoint solution (basicly a two PC system).

For 99.9% of users, Nucleus+ will do (even for DSD512 upsampling and internal Roon DSP).

In my country we have a saying: measuring is knowing. It means something like: I have something that is 1 meter, so it is exactly the right size. You only know if it is 1 meter is not by reading the label, but you always have to measure it yourself first before using it.

With HQPlayer the same, although all fora say you need such a computer, I tested this myself with an 8i5 and 8i7 fanless nuc. For this test I used HQPlayer installed on an Ubuntu installation, together with Roon. As measurement I used the linux program PSensor, which could measure the PCore junction temperature and the Processor usage. The Processor usage was for the 8i7 well within specs. The processor usage for the 8i5 was above 90% which was high.

The main issue is the Pcore Junction temperature. Which was about 85 degrees centigrade, which is just within specs (90-95 is the limit from Intel)

Fun thing: with a normal plastic one with fan I did the same test, and had to stop it very fast because I would have burned it.

The conclusion is that I am able to convert to DSD512 with an 8i7 nuc.

And still today there are filters in hqplayer that are even with the best computer not usable.

Does not mean that with a higher and more powerful DSD conversion music automatically sounds better. It causes other problems: power causes interference of all other parts in the case and the heat it generates is alot which is also not good. Moreover: you need such a strong motherboard powersupply that is not good at all. A normal ATX power unit fluctuates too much. Last years a few vendors came with those motherboard lps powersupplies, but that is another scope, very expensive way of computer building and I think not powerful enough for the highest filters. The “normal” high end gaming computers are not usable for audio.

I believe in low power using computers (and streamers) and the intel nuc 8th/10th generation are perfect for roon and some hqplayer filters.

Yes, it is worth upgrading.

Because 3 reasons

- a macbook is made of plastic. As I stated before an aluminum housing sounds better
- a macbook has a display
- a macbook is nog made for audiostreaming. Inside it is full of electromagnetic distortion

nice work. That Pink Faun OXCO clock was in my shopping basket wishlist too, the only thing is that at that time due to the chip shortages this USB card was out of stock and not deliverable. This is a very nice build audio pc. It is lovely.

About the SQ of the server, I started with a plastic 5i3 nuc and decided to make my first fanless one from it. A Sonore ultrarendu streamer was used, connected via lan and did not expect any improvement myself at all, wasn't even sitting for it. While the first track was started I instantly heard everything sounded better. And the reason why? I don't know, because the final part was the streamer not the server.

Originally Posted by Elberoth

@RDSChicago is using LAN connection, not USB like you do in your system. That is a completely different scenario.

I have just finished building a $5000 server/Roon end-point for a good friend of mine, that has a DAC with USB input.

It uses 3 transformers, 4 separate ultra low noise power supplies with ultra low noise LT3042 voltege regulators (one for the motherboard, two for the SSD drives and one for the USB card), an extra bank of ultracapacitors to stiffen up / lower the impedance of the 5V rail for the USB card and the best USB card on the market - Pink Faun Ultra OCXO:

IMG_0124s.jpg

Why? Because when using USB connection, many things make a difference - as you have discovered in your system.

Does it make sense to invest in such a server when using LAN connection? In my experience - no. There will be no difference when using this server, connected via a LAN cable to Dutch 8c speakers vs say a simple Intel NUC or Roon Nucleus (or a MacBook for that matter).

If anything, a quality switch like this (SW-8) has a potential to make a bigger SQ difference when using a DAC (or speakers) with LAN input.

Very nice build, Adam!