Thread: The (good) old CD player

As we enjoy our SOTA streamers, DAC's and network music players, what does this mean for the future of the old CD player?

Have we traded convenience for sonics or are we enjoying better sonics today with the added benefit of convenience?

Are CD players generational? Is there just a certain younger demographic who's ripping CD's or is everyone doing it?

(Side note: I have found a lot of my older....uhh...experienced clients are using CD's and have no interest in ripping).

When we look at the setup of a typical rig in the world of computer audiophiles (myself included), it's mind boggling. Computers, software, software updates, NAS, routers, switches, wifi, Ethernet cables, multiple boxes, multiple power supplies, USB cables litter our holy audio landscapes and the list goes on!

Tonight I popped in a CD, used my remote and it sounded glorious. So relaxed and smooth. Less jitter I thought? The 1's and 0's were aligning.

Has the CD player become the red headed step child of the audio world? Does it deserve it? Have we completely ignored the KISS principle where digital audio is concerned or do the high res limitations of a CD player make it obsolete? No enjoying disks can play 24/192 files (24/176 max, assuming your CD player has SACD capabilities). No MQA and no streaming Tidal either.

Thoughts?



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I still have 2 CD players, actually one is SACD/CD player and the other is a Denon universal player that has been rejigged specifically for RBCD only. Love the convenience.

I considered selling my Esoteric CD player last year. It is used less than 10% of the time I listen to music. It sounds good but I find the Lumin sounds better with ripped CDs and high res files. Additionally, it is so convenient to have my entire digital music collection available via a mobile device.

One more thing, the nice integration with Tidal expands my library to all genres and millions of songs.

Initially when I tried a music server (Mac Mini) I was not impressed. After replacing my DAC (Eastern Electric Mini Max Plus) with a Lampizator and working on tweaks to integrate the server into the system (Isolation, cables, Regen, power supply ETC) I now find the sonics superior to my CDP (transport).
A little while back I had some friends over. They brought some of their favorite CD's. I had most of them already in my external hard drive. So after some setup and syncing of the playback we were able to switch back and forth on the fly. On every disc everyone agreed that the music server was superior. Plus the convenience factor with a server makes it my Go To source.
I will keep the CDP as a backup but this Ehh Experienced audiophile has made the switch.

Bob - the Aurender N10 and Lumin U1 are game changing devices in my systems. I could never go back to a PC/Mac - ever. I too have found so much more music on Tidal than I would have the old fashioned way.

But my question was more about thinking about the digital complexities and how those may or may not affect sound.

Have we overcome the hurdles of jitter and noise associated with all the pieces involved in the modern streaming system? I think we've definitely come a long way with the Aurender's, Lumin's and others of the world.



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Originally Posted by jadedavid

Initially when I tried a music server (Mac Mini) I was not impressed. After replacing my DAC (Eastern Electric Mini Max Plus) with a Lampizator and working on tweaks to integrate the server into the system (Isolation, cables, Regen, power supply ETC) I now find the sonics superior to my CDP (transport).
A little while back I had some friends over. They brought some of their favorite CD's. I had most of them already in my external hard drive. So after some setup and syncing of the playback we were able to switch back and forth on the fly. On every disc everyone agreed that the music server was superior. Plus the convenience factor with a server makes it my Go To source.
I will keep the CDP as a backup but this Ehh Experienced audiophile has made the switch.

Well said!


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I still like my players and use them, but my Lumin is something else if my music is residing in Tidal. I guess one can say it all depends on the source and if you are ripping the quality of the dac doing the playing. PS: In my mid 60's, I just hate screwing around with a darn computer.

The other thing to note is that we aren't seeing SOTA CD players coming out at anywhere near the volume of SOTA DAC's.


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I have a vintage balanced Denon DSD-S10 (4x PCM1702 colinear DACs in opposition) that I am tempted to hook up to the main system just to see how it compares....It functions as a DAC also.

Other players which I would like to go back to:

Marantz CD7 Double Crown CD Player TDA1541A S2 DACs

Studer A730 TDA1541 DACs.

Well said Bob.

I absolutely love the sound and convenience of my modified Sonos and Lumin S1. And yes, I absolutely do miss my Lampizator. Tidal and Deezer sound amazing. Plus I love the recommendations that both can provide leading to many new and wonderful musical discoveries. I have a couple of cd players and even used them as dacs until I graduated to better solutions and higher resolution files.

With the quality I am hearing now and the convenience of millions of songs, I am floored. It would be tough to go back and I don't want to. Sometimes I do miss popping in a cd and hitting play. Even with the server/dac I still try and play entire "cds".

Originally Posted by Rhapsody

My whole thing is that I can never have to even leave my chair, pick up the Ipad and with one finger hit play and the sound is incredible, with "millions of tracks to choose from" etc - it's "trumped" other sources for me with that combination, no matter how good other sources sound.

I enjoy both. I like using my Music Server for high res downloads. I convert all of my flac files to DSD and also have quite a few DSD downloads. I do not do any kind of streaming. I like owning my music.

However, since getting a decent SACD/CD player (Marantaz SA8005) I am really enjoying spinning disks again. Yes, I have ripped most of my Redbook CDs, and I purchased the spinner mainly for SACDs. I have found that I really enjoy spinning my old Redbooks, much more than I did playing the rips. I recently went as far as purchasing a Wyred 4 Sound Remedy (and some Wireworld audio coax cables) which makes the Redbooks just that much better.

Therefore, as it is now I believe I have three sources that I enjoy; playing albums from my music server through a W4S Recovery and my DAC (all in DSD), SA-CD disks straight from the Marantz to my pre-amplifier, and Redbook CDs through a W4S Remedy and my DAC... All sound fantastic and I enjoy playing many of my old CDs once again!!!

I’m a fan of the compact disc player and love its simplicity and convenience.

Many consider CDs as 'old school' now – after all, the format has been around since 1982 – but there are still billions of discs out there and if you have a large collection, a dedicated CD player or transport will ensure you get the best out of them. The 12cm optical disc became the biggest money-spinner the music industry had ever seen, or will ever likely see and the good news is CD player prices continue to go down and, surprisingly, sound quality continues to go up!


Perhaps I fall into the “uhh…experienced client” category to which Mike above refers; I’ve no particular interest in falling into a download sinkhole, constantly having to upgrade computers and software and having to be tethered to an internet connection and beholden to a subscription based service in order to obtain or reproduce music. If I felt I could get more from a CD by ripping it to a hard drive than playing it directly from a CDP I’d reconsider and I’d also reconsider if Tidal’s streaming trumped CD in audio quality.

I use my SACD/CD player for SACDs I cannot rip, and to preview a new CD to determine if it is worth ripping. I mainly use CDs for the car, at least until I get a new car that can play USB drives.

I work in computer networking, and that is one reason why I love my S1. There is one cable back to the home hub, and a USB drive attached to the Lumin. That is about as simple as it gets.

The level of quality available these days in a relatively easy way (Lumin in my case) I could never go back to a CD player. The availability of music is just too great.

However, even as simple as the Lumin is, it couldn't be a option for my Dad for example. He is non-computer savvy at all. The frustration level would be too great. So a CD player is always going to be in his system.

I want it all and I want it now! LoL

Originally Posted by Rhapsody

Hi Joe, I'm REALLY BAD, I never play an entire cd or two sides of an LP....I do listen to a tape all the way through. I love bouncing around on Tidal from Classical, to old rock, to Broadway Musicals (Hamilton!!!) to Jazz etc. Very rich experience for me personally.

No fair, if you are using your Aurender with a dongle to a "Logos" variant! LoL

Agreed!

No doubt streaming offers the best of instant gratification. So is a music streamer a sound strategy for focus, allowing one to shift their mind into a state of flow?

Or does it tempt one into a state of impulsive distraction?

I tend to agree with a.wayne that CD players sound better for playing redbook.

Bob - how is that Vitus SACD player? How does it compare to your DAC's on hand?

All mediums have their place and each have their particular attributes. I do have source preferences but don't have a particular favourite because all the sources I use have their inherent downsides also. I will not readily retire CDs and SACDs just like I will continue to keep vintage equipment and legacy formats in commission. Holding onto the past is just as important as embracing the future. (Indeed difficult for me to be musically and generationally unbiased though! Eg. Lyrics of today compared to lyrics of decades past.)

I'm not currently Tidal ready for my main system but will be very soon. There is no argument against the benefits of the lifestyle convenience it offers as a source.

Originally Posted by Steve

I tend to agree with a.wayne that CD players sound better for playing redbook.

While there are many excellent CD players, as with other pieces of equipment, their prices need to be taken into account. From an engineering perspective, it should be less costly (hardware wise, exclude software) to build a network player with the same level of sound quality than a CD player for playing redbook CD or rip (not Tidal), because of the costs associated with the CD mechanism and the additional means to reduce the vibration, noise and jitter (e.g. reclock) induced from it.

Therefore, assuming the same audio circuit design, I'd guess that a network player should either sound better or be less expensive than a CD player from the same manufacturer. I hope that some day we can see a sound quality comparison between Esoteric K-05X and N-05 to see if my theory can be proven or not.

Originally Posted by wklie

While there are many excellent CD players, as with other pieces of equipment, their prices need to be taken into account. From an engineering perspective, it should be less costly (hardware wise, exclude software) to build a network player with the same level of sound quality than a CD player for playing redbook CD or rip (not Tidal), because of the costs associated with the CD mechanism and the additional means to reduce the vibration, noise and jitter (e.g. reclock) induced from it.


Therefore, assuming the same audio circuit design, I'd guess that a network player should either sound better or be less expensive than a CD player from the same manufacturer. I hope that some day we can see a sound quality comparison between Esoteric K-05X and N-05 to see if my theory can be proven or not.

I absolutely agree with your logic Peter, a key expense of a CD player is the mechanical transport mechanism with the best products from the likes of Esoteric being costly. Assuming a similar audio design / DAC a network player should sound better or be less expensive than a CD player.

In general Audiophiles strive to obtain the best sound they can from their systems. Recently one of my friends went down the Aurender path (flagship W20) and another down the Lumin path (believe it was the S1 but I’m not sure). While both audiophiles initially marvelled at the convenience and high resolution capabilities of the devices both ended up retaining their CD players [Vitus SCD-025 and Esoteric K-01X respectively] because reproduction of their CD collections was of a higher standard via their CD players.

Why this was their experience neither they nor I are sure. Is something lost in ripping a CD to a lossless audio format? Is jitter the limitation compared to the results obtained with a high-end CD transport? Is it reasonable to expect a jitter free, noise free, great sound from a system that's comprised of computers, software, hard drives spinning, multiple power supplies, routers, regenerators, switches – all with their power supplies and noise – CAT 5/6 ethernet cables, multiple boxes, USB cables, etc? Are we exchanging convenience for complexity + unwanted noise? I don’t have the answers but the above experience may indicate that whilst reference music servers and streamers are less expensive then reference CD players – they don’t sound better for Red Book – yet.

Originally Posted by kiwi_1282001

While both audiophiles initially marvelled at the convenience and high resolution capabilities of the devices both ended up retaining their CD players [Vitus SCD-025 and Esoteric K-01 respectively] because reproduction of their CD collections was of a higher standard via their CD players.

SCB-025 seems to be priced at EUR19000, which is roughly double of Lumin S1. Outside of same manufacturer and/or same audio design, I think it may be better to compare in the same price class.

As for K-01 - see this report comparing against N-05 USB input:
http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...l=1#post173556

Originally Posted by Rhapsody

Norman, how are you? Well sometimes I'm doing that, but I was referring to any of the Aurenders>Vitus SCD-025DAC>Vitus SM102 pre> Vitus SM102 monos>Speakers

All is well Bob.

Didnt get to the US this Summer, hence no chance to look you up.

You have so much quality gear lying around that you are spoilt for choice.

Originally Posted by Rhapsody

Hey Kev, it just bugs me talking about what's better than this or better than that. The only thing that is meaningful is if it is better for you. Although that might not be better to someone else.

People should say it's better for me in my system, then that makes sense. Anything else, especially "a friend said" or "someone else did this or that" is nothing more than "mental gymnastics", which can be fun of course, but it's nothing more than that.

So true. Good post.

Mike.......I use all of my sources for playback. The servers get their play time in both systems but so do the K-03 transports, the turntables, the FM tuners, and the Sonos connect streamers. I use all the sources I own. Granted, the servers are great when you wish to bounce around from disc to disc, artist to artisit, song to song, resolution to resolution from the comfort of your sweet spot seat. Nothing beats that convenience. Still, I also get complete listening enjoyment from placing a CD in the transport tray of either K-03 and pressing play. On my way to the kitchen in the morning to brew some fresh ground Italian Roast coffee beans I stop along the way just long enough to place one of many solo piano CD's into the Esoteric. I love solo piano in the mornings. I am not concerned about jumping from track to track or to another disc, only that my home has the wonderful sound of piano while I enjoy my morning coffee and pastry.

For me, there will always be CD/SACD players in my systems. My 1500+ discs in racks are all begging to be spun. I enjoy the activity of selecting a disc, placing it in the player and walking away to do whatever while the music plays. I don't always want to sit with an iPad or cellphone in my hand navigating a music library. Many times I simply want music to be playing without any other distractions. This is not to say I don't enjoy the server experience, the convenience, and the high-res playback capabilities, but I also enjoy my other playback choices as well. For me, CD/SACD players are an essential part of a well built sound system.

Thanks Dan. I think the point of my post was missed. I was simply thinking the other day as I popped a CD in my player (first time in a year) and noticed the ease to the sound and quiet backgrounds.

My point was, have we ever stopped to think about what "computer audio" really means? Did we completely miss the KISS principle when it comes to digital? With computer audio, we have computers, software, hard drives, power supply for the computer, NAS, it's power supply, routers, it's power supply, switches, their power supply, miles of Ethernet cables, wifi, USB cables, regens, and so much more.

I love the convenience and the ability to build huge play lists (can't do that with a CD) or stream Tidal or enjoy Roon.

Was just pondering...


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Mike.......Computer audio, especially NAS based servers, external rippers, file manipulation software, wireless connectivity, Ethernet connectivity, file transfer and the various complexities don't lend themselves to ease of use for the average music aficionado. We actually represent a minutely tiny segment of listeners committed to that level of involvement before the music starts to play. You have to be committed to the whole ball of wax, so to speak, to achieve the best performance and control. As for the quality of playback, I have noticed the scales tipped in both directions. That is I have noticed some CD's and SACD's sound spectacular on the K-03 but not quite the same level of engagement when played from a server, and the same in the opposite with some recording seeming to benefit from hard drive playback over transport playback. I know that I am rarely disappointed with playback from my transports.

What I have been working to achieve, and have achieved with varying degrees of success, is to develop and hold onto a state of mind that leaves the complexities of a system's equipment functions and complications out of the listening equation. I simply wish to hear my choice of music on the assembled systems without the nagging aggravation of dwelling on the system rather than the musical performance. I still remember the days when I was able to enjoy music from a 1-1/2" speaker in 9-volt transistor mono pocket radio with zero energy spent on where the music was coming from. I was listening to the music not the little radio. I want to be able to embrace that state of mind at will every time I drop the stylus or press the physical or virtual play button. I have actually grown tired of worrying about the systems. I just want to enjoy the music.

Originally Posted by Rhapsody

Hey Kev, it just bugs me talking about what's better than this or better than that. The only thing that is meaningful is if it is better for you. Although that might not be better to someone else.

People should say it's better for me in my system, then that makes sense. Anything else, especially "a friend said" or "someone else did this or that" is nothing more than "mental gymnastics", which can be fun of course, but it's nothing more than that.

Not sure if that was a off the cuff ‘cheap shot’ (2^nd Amendment ) aimed at me Bob? Hopefully not. Forums are about people, experiences, opinions and yes the occasional act of “mental gymnastics”. I’ve shared an experience – if you read carefully – of a couple of folks that were disappointed going down the server / streamer pathway and resolved that for Red Book they achieved better quality spinning a disc in their CDP’s. That experience sits comfortably with my own observations when ripped CD’s are replayed via various hardware and software to the DAC on my K-03 player. I’ve suggested that one possible conclusion of these experiences may be whilst reference music servers and streamers are less expensive then reference CD players – they don’t sound better for Red Book – yet. Why would that bug you?

I’ve often pondered the question that Mike raised at the outset, have we ever stopped to think about what "computer audio" really means? Did we completely miss the KISS principle when it comes to digital? What reasons might exist to explain why Mike, myself and others mentioned above noticed music playing with greater ease and quieter backgrounds via a transport? Do you have any considered thoughts on that?

This whole what sounds better, the CD player or the server, is mostly which has the better DAC, and analog output stage. The cables used on each piece of gear will also affect the sound one way or the other to some degree. It is not a simple A/B comparison.

As a rather new comer jumping back into this amazing hobby I find the industry has changed considerably. And I also believe it is a tremendous amount of personal preferences. I also greatly appreciate the wonderful input and feedback from others "opinions". It has helped greatly in learning/re-learning all of the changes in this world. And or course, the end result for any one of us is to enjoy the music ....

With all of this said, it does seem to me that many times we all over complicate things. The routers and NAS and switches, etc., etc. for the average person makes this a very steep mountain to climb. As a computer guy I truly have no problem with understanding this end of the business, but then it comes down to what matters more to me. Yes I went the route of ripping all my music and playing exclusively from a computer. I actually thought this was going to be my way moving forward getting back into this audio world. But the more I went that route I found I did not enjoy much of the music as I thought I would.

I also find the extra complexity of the gear does not add to the enjoyment. For example, storing all of my music on a NAS and streaming it to my system I found not to my liking. I prefer to use the NAS as a backup storage system. The same with streaming, I have never gained a liking for it.

I do enjoy having a music server hooked to my system (my server is a highly modified custom PC that is dedicated to being a Roon headless server), and using Roon to control the server is very nice. However I have found that I enjoy spinning disks. The convenience, the feel of putting the disk in the player and pushing the play button is something that appeals to me. I have actually found that I enjoy playing my Redbooks from the spinner much more than ripped versions through the music server. Therefore I keep only downloaded high rez files on the server and use the spinner for SA-CDs and Redbooks.

One thing that I have found is I do not enjoy the inconvenience of having an external DAC. Having to set each component for which music source I am listening to. For example, to listen to SA-CDs I set the correct input on the pre-amplifier, no worries, easy; but to listen to the music server I have to select a different input (again easy), but make sure that the DAC is set to USB input. For Redbooks again, set the Pre-amp to the DAC input, but then set the DAC to Coax 1.

I have seriously considered getting a pre-amplifier with everything built in so that I can simply select the input for whichever of the three sources I am listening to. It just seems more straight forward. The SST Thoebe II or McIntosh C47 seem to be the two top contenders to me (any thoughts?).

For a brief moment I considered getting back into vinyl but then I recalled the efforts that I used to go through to keep the albums in top shape. The cleaners, brushes, stylus cleaners, etc., etc. I even had an original VPI cleaning machine back in the day. But the more I thought on it, and researched all of these accessories I came to a solid conclusion. At this point I do not want to do that again, not to say I would not in the future.

Thank you sir.... thought you might find this interesting.... here is a photo from back in the day.... when taking care of our precious vinyl was everything ...