Excited about tomorrow...

**Mike Lavigne** · December 20, 2017, 10:43 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

The Select II cannot be compared to other DAC's. As I mentioned above, it's in a separate source class of its own. It's something that must be experienced to be believed. You feel like you are plugged into the performers in the recording studio. And, it's going to get better over the next 200 hours of break in.

congrats Mike. i'm happy for you.

and I do actually know about what you are now hearing. nice choice on the color. the MSB Select II/dual power bases/33 Femto clock does take the performance that step up and beyond other digital (in my experience) into another realm. it imparts to the music a continuousness, a solidity, and an ease I've not heard approached by other digital. there is an expressiveness and flow not digital at all. I lose myself in the music in a way other digital has not been able to cause. and the hybrid dac does pcm and dsd equally well. there is no flaw in it's game.

it will be fun reading about your adventures with this product.

**asiufy** · December 20, 2017, 11:41 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

Alex, when we were at ARC together in early November, we were talking about the Select II. I remember you saying "it doesn't sound like digital, I don't know what it sounds like." Now I understand.

Yep. It's not vinyl either, interestingly enough. Since I don't have enough exposure to good tape, I was left wondering WTF was that that I was hearing, since it didn't sound digital, and it didn't sound like my vinyl either (Kronos, like yours).. But pretty quick you just relax and queue album after album, and every single one of them sound brilliant, even the less-than-stellar recordings...

**Kuoppis** · December 21, 2017, 02:18 AM

Originally Posted by Boogieman

Some people claim that the latest Berkeley Reference DAC with MQA is the best DAC in the world. How does this one compare? Thanks

I think the Brinkmann Nyquist is the best. Similar in sound as Mike describes the Select II to be: not digital and more than analogue.

(No surprise there

).

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**Jack** · December 21, 2017, 02:39 AM

I think you made a good choice and neither one of us is probably willing to swim in those waters.

**sharkmouth** · December 21, 2017, 05:17 AM

Every now & then we all get a little smug about something that we bring into our system. Whether it's worth $1k or $100k, is irrelevant, we chase the sound, the swoon, the melt, the dragon's tail... whatever way you choose to describe it, but every so often ........ we hear the gossamer of truth coming from our speakers that can not be denied, quite simply, because it is that good. Congrats Mike, about time you bought a top tier MSB product. Take it home & listen to the silence of the horns!!

**mep** · December 21, 2017, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Kuoppis

I think the Brinkmann Nyquist is the best. Similar in sound as Mike describes the Select II to be: not digital and more than analogue.

(No surprise there

).

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How could you possibly know that? Did you buy the Nyquist DAC?

**Narayan** · December 21, 2017, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

Ha! I’m thinking of bringing it home to listen to over the holidays. Kronos, Select II, a rebuilt Studer 810. Three pretty darn good sources if I do say so myself.

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It looks like the Three Kings arrived early this year!

The sound on that video you posted is ear-quiveringly good, what a delight the real thing must be.

**Mike** · December 21, 2017, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by Narayan

It looks like the Three Kings arrived early this year!

The sound on that video you posted is ear-quiveringly good, what a delight the real thing must be.

They sure did. This morning I’ve been listening to Eva Cassidy (both live albums). I cannot believe what I’m hearing.

Last night Ken and I were trying to figure out MSB’s secret sauce. We agreed it’s “everything” - ladder DAC, Femto 33 clock, dual mono power supplies, isolation, grounding, everything.

I can’t wait to hear this baby with the “soon to come” Roon ready network card (build and designed by MSB).

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**Kuoppis** · December 21, 2017, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by mep

How could you possibly know that? Did you buy the Nyquist DAC?

This was a bit tongue-in-cheek. I think the Berkeley Ref 2 is great and having tested the Brinkmann Nyquist extensively I know it is great.

But putting any of those against the MSB Select would be tough given a factor 4 price differential.

And yes, I bought the Nyquist.

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**Kuoppis** · December 21, 2017, 03:03 PM

Double post.

**The Sandman** · December 21, 2017, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by Kuoppis

I think the Berkeley Ref 2 is great and having tested the Brinkmann Nyquist extensively I know it is great.

But putting any of those against the MSB Select would be tough given a factor 4 price differential.

Compared to the Berkeley Ref 2 MQA it's more like a factor 6 price differential ($20K vs $120K).

**The Sandman** · December 21, 2017, 04:29 PM

Saying a DAC doesn't sound digital only shows anti-digital bias - I've never heard anyone say an analog source was so good it didn't sound like analog. Digital has always had the potential to eclipse analog and it's only a question of exactly when this occurs. Previous generations of digital maybe didn't sound so good, but then again neither did early analog.

**mep** · December 21, 2017, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by The Sandman

Saying a DAC doesn't sound digital only shows anti-digital bias

Hog wash. You remind me of a snowflake. Digital has always sounded different than analog because it sounds, er, digital.

Originally Posted by The Sandman

- I've never heard anyone say an analog source was so good it didn't sound like analog.

That would be because since music is analog and if it is recorded in the analog domain and played back in the analog domain, it's going to sound as natural as the recording gear, venue, and musicians involved in the recording allow it to. Some of us want our music to sound like analog and we would never say analog sounds so good it doesn't sound like analog.

Originally Posted by The Sandman

Digital has always had the potential to eclipse analog and it's only a question of exactly when this occurs. Previous generations of digital maybe didn't sound so good, but then again neither did early analog.

Define early analog. We have suffered through digital for many years starting in the 1980s. It's almost 2018. How many more years before a DAC that costs less than $100k can beat out a decent analog rig?

**still-one** · December 21, 2017, 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by mep

Hog wash. You remind me of a snowflake. Digital has always sounded different than analog because it sounds, er, digital.

That would be because since music is analog and if it is recorded in the analog domain and played back in the analog domain, it's going to sound as natural as the recording gear, venue, and musicians involved in the recording allow it to. Some of us want our music to sound like analog and we would never say analog sounds so good it doesn't sound like analog.

Define early analog. We have suffered through digital for many years starting in the 1980s. It's almost 2018. How many more years before a DAC that costs less than $100k can beat out a decent analog rig?

Here you go again with your analog bias.

**The Sandman** · December 21, 2017, 05:02 PM

CD's were developed 35 years ago (in 1982). The phonograph was invented in 1877. Since this year seems to be the point at which a lot of people are describing some kind of turning point for digital, let's call the first 35 years of analog "early analog". What do you reckon an analog rig sounded like in 1912, 35 years after its arrival. How about in 1947, 70 years after? And how do you think digital will sound 35 years from now?

**Dr Tone** · December 21, 2017, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by mep

We have suffered through digital for many years starting in the 1980s. It's almost 2018. How many more years before a DAC that costs less than $100k can beat out a decent analog rig?

-8

**mep** · December 21, 2017, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by The Sandman

CD's were developed 35 years ago (in 1982). The phonograph was invented in 1877. Since this year seems to be the point at which a lot of people are describing some kind of turning point for digital, let's call the first 35 years of analog "early analog". What do you reckon an analog rig sounded like in 1912, 35 years after its arrival. How about in 1947, 70 years after? And how do you think digital will sound 35 years from now?

So you are comparing a digital technology that started in the 1980s that was announced to consumers as "perfect sound forever" to the sound of analog gear from the birth of recorded sound?

**Mike** · December 21, 2017, 05:23 PM

Oh man...my thread is going sideways.

Sigh...

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**mep** · December 21, 2017, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by still-one

Here you go again with your analog bias.

You are too old to be a snowflake, so that just makes you a grump.

I keep telling you to send me your table and I will give it a loving home instead of collecting dust in your system while you listen to your beloved digital. That would have the added bonus of you removing your turntable and phono section from your signature so you can show the world that you are a righteous lover of all things digital. That would be a win-win.

**Mike** · December 21, 2017, 05:32 PM

I see we are all in the Christmas spirit today. ❤️

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**mep** · December 21, 2017, 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

Oh man...my thread is going sideways.

Sigh...

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Sorry Mike, Sandman hit a nerve. There is no doubt that the MSB Select II DAC with dual outboard power supplies is the new "it" DAC that some people are saying has finally tipped the digital scales in SQ from all DACs that came before it. Your thoughts on the sound of the MSB closely resemble what MikeL has said about it and Alex is also singing from the same sheet of music. And that is the MSB DAC has created it's own category for a source component.

**mep** · December 21, 2017, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

I see we are all in the Christmas spirit today. ❤️

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Absolutely. I have visions of Jim's SME rig having a loving home for Christmas instead of being an analog orphan.

**Mike Lavigne** · December 21, 2017, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

Oh man...my thread is going sideways.

Sigh...

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Mark's evil twin immerges.....

**Mike Lavigne** · December 21, 2017, 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by The Sandman

Saying a DAC doesn't sound digital only shows anti-digital bias - I've never heard anyone say an analog source was so good it didn't sound like analog. Digital has always had the potential to eclipse analog and it's only a question of exactly when this occurs. Previous generations of digital maybe didn't sound so good, but then again neither did early analog.

tell that to the one's who have thousands of 78's and prefer them to the 33's.

or the one's who prefer the early mono's to later mono's or stereo pressings.

**Kuoppis** · December 21, 2017, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by The Sandman

Compared to the Berkeley Ref 2 MQA it's more like a factor 6 price differential ($20K vs $120K).

Indeed. When you count in two power bases, femto 33 clock, it’s even a higher multiple.

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**mep** · December 21, 2017, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne

Mark's evil twin immerges.....

More like Mark’s BS meter got pegged.

**Kuoppis** · December 21, 2017, 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

Oh man...my thread is going sideways.

Sigh...

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Isn’t this what’s typically happening on Christmas? Family feuds, enduring the nasty aunt and the silly cousin.

Statistically seen most domestic violence cases happen around the feast of love.

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**Mike** · December 21, 2017, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by Kuoppis

Isn’t this what’s typically happening on Christmas? Family feuds, enduring the nasty aunt and the silly cousin.

Statistically seen most domestic violence cases happen around the feast of love.

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Who spiked the egg nog?

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**Mike Lavigne** · December 21, 2017, 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by mep

More like Mark’s BS meter got pegged.

maybe.....it's stuck.....somewhere. there are ointments for that.....just say'n.

love,

Mike

**BlueFox** · December 21, 2017, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by mep

So you are comparing a digital technology that started in the 1980s that was announced to consumers as "perfect sound forever" to the sound of analog gear from the birth of recorded sound?

That isn't how I read it. I think he is saying early analog sucked, and it took years before it reached its current state. The same thing applies to digital. However, my money says it won't take nearly as long for digital reproduction to better analog reproduction. Maybe it already does. Interesting that SOTA analog and digital are in the six figure range. Personally, I don't need the subtle nuance of improvement that even five figures buy, but appreciate any trickle down technology it offers.

**asiufy** · December 21, 2017, 08:52 PM

I'm going to be bold and say it... The MSB Reference (not even the SELECT), at $40k, will give a similarly-priced analog setup a good run for their money. And that's with analog recordings.

And before people call me names, I own thousands of LPs, and keep buying more of the buggers. I just like vinyl. But I'm also glad I can just grab my iPad and queue some music and not be left wanting to hear it on LP.

**Dre_J** · December 21, 2017, 09:27 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

It’s here!!! MSB Select II with dual mono power bases. The MQA USB input module is installed for now and when the Roon ready MQA Ethernet module is ready, I’ll switch to that.

I have the XLR in and out preamp module, and added the RCA output for use with SE amps. Right now, I’m running direct to the Gryphon Colosseum.

For now, using the Lumin U1 (I’ll try the Aurender once they get MQA).

I just got it up and running. I will comment on sonics later.

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Congratulations, Mike. Enjoy the ride.

Dre

**Dre_J** · December 21, 2017, 09:33 PM

Originally Posted by asiufy

I'm going to be bold and say it... The MSB Reference (not even the SELECT), at $40k, will give a similarly-priced analog setup a good run for their money. And that's with analog recordings.

And before people call me names, I own thousands of LPs, and keep buying more of the buggers. I just like vinyl. But I'm also glad I can just grab my iPad and queue some music and not be left wanting to hear it on LP.

Yes, you are being bold. I would not go that far. There are too many variables and personal preferences to account for.

Instead of trying to knock off analog, why don't we enjoy what technology (analog and digital) has to offer in this day and age that allows us to listen to our music in more satisfying ways?

Dre

P.S. When asked if I'm format agnostic? I say yes --with a smile.

**Mike Lavigne** · December 21, 2017, 10:44 PM

Originally Posted by Dre_J

Yes, you are being bold. I would not go that far. There are too many variables and personal preferences to account for.

Instead of trying to knock off analog, why don't we enjoy what technology (analog and digital) has to offer in this day and age that allows us to listen to our music in more satisfying ways?

Dre

P.S. When asked if I'm format agnostic? I say yes --with a smile.

agree, and that is what I've told posters who want to know the 'goods' about how it compares to vinyl. what is important is that it takes us to a degree of musical involvement and expressiveness that is unto itself and is very satisfying to listen to. we want to keep listening. objectively it does dig out detail in the analog realm, but it's not the same....and does not need to be.

what it does do for me, is to, in many ways, eliminate any need to worry about what form the media takes, and know i'm still going to really enjoy it and feel i'm connecting. and the digital interface now available delivers so much music so seamlessly and without any physical limits. it fits into my time better with less compromises.

i'm still pursuing improving my vinyl and, and I love acquiring the right master tape, but great music on digital also brings me lots of pleasure.

and i'm not putting down times when I might like to compare formats; my reference is my analog. and that aspect is fun. but every day now it's just enjoying the music. I can chose two or three digital files, sit back, turn the lights down, or multi-task, and there is no compromise. the musical pull is compelling.

**asiufy** · December 21, 2017, 11:25 PM

Originally Posted by Dre_J

Yes, you are being bold. I would not go that far. There are too many variables and personal preferences to account for.

Instead of trying to knock off analog, why don't we enjoy what technology (analog and digital) has to offer in this day and age that allows us to listen to our music in more satisfying ways?

Dre

P.S. When asked if I'm format agnostic? I say yes --with a smile.

See, I knew it... Where did I knock analog off? I didn't. I just said the MSB REF is as good as a similarly priced analog rig.

Before these new MSB products (REF/SELECT), I could never get the same level of satisfaction from digital that I got from a record. And I'm not talking about 45 rpm, fancy reissues or expensive originals of sonic spectaculars. Maybe one of the reasons I enjoy the MSB so much is that 95% of my music collection (20k albums and counting) is comprised of not-really-great-sounding recordings. So, to all of a sudden be ale to enjoy the digital version as much as I enjoyed the LPs, it's extraordinary (to me), and worth quite a lot (again, to me).

**Dre_J** · December 21, 2017, 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by asiufy

See, I knew it... Where did I knock analog off? I didn't. I just said the MSB REF is as good as a similarly priced analog rig.

Before these new MSB products (REF/SELECT), I could never get the same level of satisfaction from digital that I got from a record. And I'm not talking about 45 rpm, fancy reissues or expensive originals of sonic spectaculars. Maybe one of the reasons I enjoy the MSB so much is that 95% of my music collection (20k albums and counting) is comprised of not-really-great-sounding recordings. So, to all of a sudden be ale to enjoy the digital version as much as I enjoyed the LPs, it's extraordinary (to me), and worth quite a lot (again, to me).

Alex, I think you may be a bit too sensitive on this post. I parsed that reply into two different responses.

The first response was a different observation to you saying you would be bold and state what you did. I countered with multiple variables would not allow me to come to the same conclusion (for myself or anyone that asked me). In essence, I'd tell them to seek out and make their own determination. (This is a bit diplomatic but I steadfastly believe that users are more satisfied with their choices when they make their own decisions after careful evaluation.)

The second response didn't contain a 'you' and was a general thought on the whole analog vs. digital back and forth that rears its head endlessly. (The reason for the terms 'we' and 'us')

If you'd be so kind, take a second look at what I wrote. I never said you were knocking analog.

Dre

**asiufy** · December 22, 2017, 12:01 AM

Originally Posted by Dre_J

(This is a bit diplomatic but I steadfastly believe that users are more satisfied with their choices when they make their own decisions after careful evaluation.)

Dre,

No problem

And your quote above is perfect. Yes, it might be diplomatic to say it, but people make their choices for a million reasons, and we've got to respect them.

**KeithR** · December 22, 2017, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by mep

More like Mark’s BS meter got pegged.

except it really isn't BS. I've had the MSB Ref dac in my room and compared directly to my Brinkmann TT (no slouch, and as good as than your analog rig). Have you?

I also have an Analog Dac and can safely say it sounds like good digital. And there isn't anything wrong with that. I'm hoping the Analog 2 gets me most of the Ref dac magic at a lower price.

I would go further to say that I wouldn't recommend someone spend 40k on an analog setup if they didn't already have a record collection. I'd buy the MSB and call it a day.

**Mike** · December 22, 2017, 10:41 AM

The biggest thing I can say is that the Select II just can’t be considered digital. I know this sounds ridiculous, and if I didn’t hear it myself, I would laugh, but it’s seriously a different source category all together. I feel it’s THAT different from your typical “DAC”.

For years the digital has been the worst thing in our systems, we were always trying to tune out the harshness with cables, some tubes, forgiving speakers, etc. Now I ask people to consider the “DAC” (for lack of a better term) is the best thing in the system, maybe by far. If that is true you will hear BIG differences when comparing just about anything else in the system. It is quite a revelation. It is further impressive to know that this has all been achieved without upsampling or tricks, just ….insane…precision in the DAC ladders and clock, then taking great care of the signal all the way to the output jacks.

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**Elberoth** · December 22, 2017, 10:59 AM

Damn, need to buy a new DAC, lol.

**mep** · December 22, 2017, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by KeithR

except it really isn't BS. I've had the MSB Ref dac in my room and compared directly to my Brinkmann TT (no slouch, and as good as than your analog rig). Have you?

I also have an Analog Dac and can safely say it sounds like good digital. And there isn't anything wrong with that. I'm hoping the Analog 2 gets me most of the Ref dac magic at a lower price.

I would go further to say that I wouldn't recommend someone spend 40k on an analog setup if they didn't already have a record collection. I'd buy the MSB and call it a day.

Keith-You are barking up the wrong tree. I was specifically talking to Sandman about his comments comparing 1980s digital to the sound of analog at its inception. I did not make any comments to Alex over his $40k challenge.

**Elberoth** · December 22, 2017, 11:15 AM

Mike, how much is the dual PS, Femto 33 & Ethernet equipped Select II DAC in retail ?

**Mike** · December 22, 2017, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by Elberoth

Mike, how much is the dual PS, Femto 33 & Ethernet equipped Select II DAC in retail ?

MSB pricing can be found here:

http://www.msbtechnology.com/dacs/select-pricing/

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**Priaptor** · December 22, 2017, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

The Select II cannot be compared to other DAC's. As I mentioned above, it's in a separate source class of its own. It's something that must be experienced to be believed. You feel like you are plugged into the performers in the recording studio. And, it's going to get better over the next 200 hours of break in.

Mike,

Welcome to my/our world. People never believe until they hear it. It's an amazing DAC.

Enjoy
Howie

**puroagave** · December 22, 2017, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by asiufy

I'm going to be bold and say it... The MSB Reference (not even the SELECT), at $40k, will give a similarly-priced analog setup a good run for their money. And that's with analog recordings.

And before people call me names, I own thousands of LPs, and keep buying more of the buggers. I just like vinyl. But I'm also glad I can just grab my iPad and queue some music and not be left wanting to hear it on LP.

Bon dia Alex. I did get to hear the 'big' MSB stack at your old store and it was all that. If it weren't for the fact we followed up the session with a brief encounter with the 'big' Kronos deck (and modest Ortofon cart, I might add) I would have left with a new understanding of what latest digital can do but alas I still preferred the vinyl - by a mile

Im off next week ill come down to check out the new store! I need to see you about some upgrade parts for an LP12 i pulled out of storage.

**asiufy** · December 22, 2017, 01:13 PM

Rob,

Well, that was way more than $40k in analog right there

The phono stage alone was $28k... Table $48k.

I'm with Keith on this. If you don't have a sizeable record collection (like me, and most here), just get an MSB Reference and be happy.

Stop by next week!

cheers,
alex

**KeithR** · December 22, 2017, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by mep

Keith-You are barking up the wrong tree. I was specifically talking to Sandman about his comments comparing 1980s digital to the sound of analog at its inception. I did not make any comments to Alex over his $40k challenge.

I'm sorry Mark - see your own reply in post #63. Your skepticism is on full display implying no digital sounds quite like analog or its recording chain.

Except I've done the comparison myself so thought I would share.

**Dguitarnut** · December 22, 2017, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

The biggest thing I can say is that the Select II just can’t be considered digital. I know this sounds ridiculous, and if I didn’t hear it myself, I would laugh, but it’s seriously a different source category all together. I feel it’s THAT different from your typical “DAC”.

For years the digital has been the worst thing in our systems, we were always trying to tune out the harshness with cables, some tubes, forgiving speakers, etc. Now I ask people to consider the “DAC” (for lack of a better term) is the best thing in the system, maybe by far. If that is true you will hear BIG differences when comparing just about anything else in the system. It is quite a revelation. It is further impressive to know that this has all been achieved without upsampling or tricks, just ….insane…precision in the DAC ladders and clock, then taking great care of the signal all the way to the output jacks.

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Wow is all I can say! I just got back from spending some time listening to Mike’s new toy!
I fully agree with his assessment in that it ought to be a different category all together.
This was the best sounding system I have ever had the pleasure of experiencing! The layer upon layer of music/musicians/instruments is amazing.....and it didn’t matter what recording you listened to...you heard it as never before with out shrillness edginess or other artifacts.
Offered Mike a kidney for the MSB but he said he already had two but mentioned to me to put it on EBay to get top dollar. He is a tough negotiator but always fair and truthful.

**Priaptor** · December 22, 2017, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by Dguitarnut

Wow is all I can say! I just got back from spending some time listening to Mike’s new toy!
I fully agree with his assessment in that it ought to be a different category all together.
This was the best sounding system I have ever had the pleasure of experiencing! The layer upon layer of music/musicians/instruments is amazing.....and it didn’t matter what recording you listened to...you heard it as never before with out shrillness edginess or other artifacts.
Offered Mike a kidney for the MSB but he said he already had two but mentioned to me to put it on EBay to get top dollar. He is a tough negotiator but always fair and truthful.

I have had my Select II for awhile now. Literally the BEST part of the unit is how amazing Redbook can sound. It is a startling revelation at how good redbook is assuming the recording is good.

**mep** · December 22, 2017, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by KeithR

I'm sorry Mark - see your own reply in post #63. Your skepticism is on full display implying no digital sounds quite like analog or its recording chain.

Except I've done the comparison myself so thought I would share.

Here is what I said in post 63: "Digital has always sounded different than analog because it sounds, er, digital." What I meant by that is all digital I have heard so far doesn't sound like analog. I have not heard the MSB Select II DAC with dual outboard power supplies and therefore I can't possibly know how it sounds and I certainly never made any claims to the contrary. Everyone who has bought one for their store or bought one for themselves has pretty much made the same comments with regards to the MSB DAC and that is it sounds like a new source and sounds neither like analog or digital if I'm reading them correctly.

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