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  1. #151
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    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Quote Originally Posted by Devg View Post
    ...
    No, theoretically they should sound the same. The question is not so much about if the data is in the internet datacenter vs in your home. It's more to do with network connectivity with the server/streamer/DAC. Having said that and after many experiments, I have abandoned my NAS and moved everything on local drive running in the server. So my audio path is not directly attached to the networking subsystem.
    First, it sounds as if your practical solution doesn't quite agree with the theoretical perspective from the first sentence. Second, it's hard to see how they would even theoretically sound the same since there is likely to be all sorts of switching noise and other grunge at the transmitting end (Tidal or Qobuz)

    I'm not trying to give you a hard time, I'm still trying to best configure a server/DAC combination using local storage, a setup you also now seem to be using. I'm not really interested in streaming at this time.
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  2. #152

    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    I do think he was referring to replacing SMPS with LPS as unnecessary, and I was responding with my opinion and experience for only a couple of specific and limited situations
    I do think there could be sonic improvements to be had by replacing a SMPS with a linear power supply, but Iím not sure all digital devices will benefit equally. In my setup, I would like to hear the difference with a linear power supply powering my Roon Nucleus+ vice the wall wart it comes with.
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  3. #153

    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Quote Originally Posted by Devg View Post
    Fine with me and I don't really care. I am not trying to convince anybody, except documenting some facts which are very misleading, for example one really can't hear noise directly but its manifestation. Some of the etherRegen claims may be just bogus but that doesn't mean its not helping the network at all. It does and so does some other non-audiophile switches as well (I won't name names).

    Bits are bits, right ? Why on earth do you think manufactures are building high-end music servers ? If not all but some are indeed tackling some of the very nastiness of digital tit-bits and just not for some gimmicks.

    Unfortunately, no one (I literally mean no one) has ever found a way to measure anything or prove anything. Being an engineer dealing with extreme high-speed data myself in my professional life, I was a naysayer (just like many of us), until I started to use some of my own and it all started just as a DIY experiment. I know very well the concept of "searching of a problem for a solution that doesn't exist" and hence I dwindle down the road with extreme caution
    Are you serious? I can't believe you are an engineer and you made that statement. We damn sure have figured out how to take measurements and prove that something works. It's called science. We even know how to measure the measurement devices and prove they are still accurate. It's called calibration and we actually have national calibration standards. We didn't send men to the moon based on feelings and hunches.
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  4. #154

    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Quote Originally Posted by Devg View Post
    Streaming can equal or even exceed a good CD player. Just buy the Taiko extreme and couple of PF modded Melco switches



    Why not ? Isn't last couple of stretches of the marathon that matter in both the cases ?
    Says who? What is a "good CD player"? What CD players have you used to compare against streaming the same music.
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  5. #155

    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    You were the one who mentioned the Taiko with Melco switches And you mentioned CD player, I was merely throwing out some other formats to compare.
    Don't you think playing a home storage file with whatever network one has is likely to sound better than streaming it from Tidal or Qobuz?
    I wouldn't be ready to take that leap of faith. They are both stored digital files that you are calling up and playing. Some people are adamant that the best sounding digital reproduction is going to come from spinning a CD on a high end CD spinner like a CEC belt drive transport feeding into a good DAC.
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  6. #156
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    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Boy has this thread moved on to cover several topics.
    Jim

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  7. #157
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    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Very true. The other thing to consider when streaming would be format itself. Obviously I understand the original recording and all of that, but assuming all else being equivalent the format does become a factor. DSD for example... or even higher DSD, like DSD256 or DSD512. These take up far too much bandwidth to be able to practically stream. Therefore all of these discussions pretty much center around CD quality, or slightly higher resolutions from that. I put forth the proposition and question, do these lower resolutions truly allow for true audiophile comparisons in conjunction to streaming?

    I have done comparisons, even MQA which its main practical use is to allow streaming slightly higher resolution without taking up too much bandwidth. A gentleman I know, David Elias worked for years in the high technology field. He was one of the first artist to fully embrace recording in the DSD format. He is also one of the first artist to fully embrace and support MQA, which he now offers his entire library in. As he has stated to me, DSD is the most "analog sounding" digital format. MQA is well equipped for streaming and use in portables players because of file size and bandwidth requirements while retaining better resolution performance. I think portable use of MQA is fairly negatable now since storage limits are not much of a factor any more. New portables can carry more than a TB of music with you.

    I have all of David's albums recorded in DSD and his reworked versions to DSD512 (yes there is a difference). He also sent me his MQA versions of some of these albums to compare. In my view and to my ears the MQA versions sound better than the CD rips, but are far inferior to the DSD versions.

    I compared these with my new portable. The Astell & Kern can play files up to DSD256 and fully unfolds MQA. It allows to use either ESS's new top of the line chips, the ES9068AS, or AKM's newest flagship the AK4499EQ. Therefore I was able to compare DSD versions and the MQA versions from an artist who fully embraces both technologies through two of the top DAC chip makers latest flagship products. I also used a balance Black Dragon cable and my Abyss Diana Phi cans which I will argue are as good as any headphone that can be used with a portable player.

    Therefore the ability of being able to stream certain files are also a worthy consideration. ... Just my two cents.
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  8. #158
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    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Quote Originally Posted by still-one View Post
    Boy has this thread moved on to cover several topics.
    Yup, but not a bad thing. It seems to have evolved into a more in-depth discussion .
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  9. #159
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    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    Are you serious? I can't believe you are an engineer and you made that statement. We damn sure have figured out how to take measurements and prove that something works. It's called science. We even know how to measure the measurement devices and prove they are still accurate. It's called calibration and we actually have national calibration standards. We didn't send men to the moon based on feelings and hunches.
    yes, I am serious and there is no shame in admitting it. Moreover, I am not a manufacturer or a reviewer, so there is no lunch for me doing all these, neither its my job. There is definitely science behind it, its just that nobody has figured it out. FFT, Sinad and Jtest is not the end of the world. Anyway, I will keep it short and simple - I don't really think you understood any of it when you make a statement like that.

  10. #160
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    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    First, it sounds as if your practical solution doesn't quite agree with the theoretical perspective from the first sentence. Second, it's hard to see how they would even theoretically sound the same since there is likely to be all sorts of switching noise and other grunge at the transmitting end (Tidal or Qobuz)
    I said theoretically because you are streaming the same bitstream from both the places. There is absolutely NO noise or grunge that is carried forward with the Tidal/Qobuz data stream (consider them audio packets), otherwise the world you have come to a scratching halt. Whoever is touting this is spreading misinformation!

  11. #161
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    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Why is there no grunge in the data path from the streaming supplier but there is in your data path?
    Rob
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  12. #162

    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Quote Originally Posted by Devg View Post
    yes, I am serious and there is no shame in admitting it. Moreover, I am not a manufacturer or a reviewer, so there is no lunch for me doing all these, neither its my job. There is definitely science behind it, its just that nobody has figured it out. FFT, Sinad and Jtest is not the end of the world. Anyway, I will keep it short and simple - I don't really think you understood any of it when you make a statement like that.
    What donít I understand any of?
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  13. #163
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    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    Why is there no grunge in the data path from the streaming supplier but there is in your data path?
    Exactly. Was wondering the same thing. I would be much more worried about all those crap lines that the data is traveling through before even getting to my ISP and then their lines to my house much more so than the lines in my house. But I do not believe any of these can compare to the higher level AQ USB cable that connects from my server to the DAC.
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  14. #164
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    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    Why is there no grunge in the data path from the streaming supplier but there is in your data path?
    Either you are not reading it properly or you are deliberately twisting it. Which one ? And I don't understand what you mean by data path either

    I am starting to have a feeling that its going into a direction where many threads land up (sayers vs naysayers), like a courthouse if you will

  15. #165
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    Re: Ethernet switch box

    see below, dupe
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  16. #166
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    Re: Ethernet switch box

    it is the switch and networkbridge who makes streaming worse or better than cd....that easy

  17. #167
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    Re: Ethernet switch box

    I'm not the only one baffled, so you might consider going through it all again.

    You appear to be concerned about noise and other non-signal artifacts appearing in the path the digital data traverses from its arrival in your home (at the ISP modem) to the DAC. This potentially involves cables, switches, routers, etc, as well as power supplies to each component that needs one. However, in some way the path the digital data travels to get to your home is free of such interference, or else some process effectively removes it as it arrives at your modem. If you can, please clarify your understanding of this for the rest of us?

    I do understand that accurate "clocking" of the data entering the DAC is important (although how much one "needs" an external clock may be open to debate, since many high-end DACs offer clocking upgrade options)
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  18. #168
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    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Quote Originally Posted by u-sound View Post
    it is the switch and networkbridge who makes streaming worse or better than cd....that easy
    and if one plays from local storage (as devg is now doing)?
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  19. #169
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    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    I'm not the only one baffled, so you might consider going through it all again.

    You appear to be concerned about noise and other non-signal artifacts appearing in the path the digital data traverses from its arrival in your home (at the ISP modem) to the DAC. This potentially involves cables, switches, routers, etc, as well as power supplies to each component that needs one. However, in some way the path the digital data travels to get to your home is free of such interference, or else some process effectively removes it as it arrives at your modem. If you can, please clarify your understanding of this for the rest of us?
    Now I am baffled but I think I understand the confusion. Its possible that I haven't articulated it well. Is it safe to assume you understand how data is transmitted from the Tidal to your music server and finally your DAC ? If not, I suggest you read up on them first, otherwise we aren't volume matched

    In short, the noise is "potentially" in the analog domain and it manifests into different shape and form by the network events - that is what many manufacturers/designers seem to believe and there is NO measurements to demonstrate this. Someday we will figure it out but for now we don't know why. Let me be very clear about this. The streaming packets itself doesn't carry any noise or grunge but the act of streaming itself causes churns to occur in a way it effects the sound quality. That is why I said earlier, my local storage sound better than NAS but I have not optimized my network to the extent possible due to various reasons.

    I hope I am able to clear some of it. I understand its complex, messy and not easily digestible.

  20. #170
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    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    How many audiophile switches do you think Tidal and Quobuz are running?
    Tidal and Quobuz are not doing any D/A conversion. They are just converting, storing and distributing data obtained from the record companies, all in the digital domain.

    So the gremlins associated with network noise during playback are not a factor for them.
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  21. #171
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    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Quote Originally Posted by Devg View Post
    ...the act of streaming itself causes churns to occur in a way it effects the sound quality...
    Here is where you and Mark differ. I am not sure, but I suspect his educational and occupational background qualifies him to have an informed opinion. If the digital data is transmitted as packets on an analog line, then noise can certainly be introduced. If the digital data is then perfectly reassembled at the modem, router, or DAC, then jitter/clocking should be all that matters (and all higher end DACs address this to one degree or another).

    In any case, as I posted a while ago, just another reason for me not to get into streaming.
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  22. #172
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    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    Here is where you and Mark differ. I am not sure, but I suspect his educational and occupational background qualifies him to have an informed opinion.
    Absolutely, I don't disagree. You are free to choose and trust whatever you like. I am not here to earn your certification please and neither do I care


    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    In any case, as I posted a while ago, just another reason for me not to get into streaming.
    You just contradicted yourself

  23. #173
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    Re: Ethernet switch box

    The thing that is confusing me about this conversation. Some say that the signal, the data packets coming from Tidal or Quobuz, or whatever are not affected, others believe that data is data and weather it is traveling across lines around the world or inside your network it is the same thing, a data pack that requires be converted by the DAC. If there is no difference then why would a higher audiophile switch make any differences at all. Some have even stated that the difference is that "Tidal and Quobuz are not doing any D/A conversion", and so if this is the case then only the DAC would matter since it is the only piece of gear actually performing D/A conversion. Maybe I am thick, maybe I have Alzheimer's, but my mind tells me the data travelling across the lines around the world can certainly affect things the same way as those inside my network??? If it is only the DAC then why do my AQ Coffee USB cables sound better than the basic Wireworld I replaced, or generic ones for that matter?
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  24. #174

    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Quote Originally Posted by Devg View Post
    Now I am baffled but I think I understand the confusion. Its possible that I haven't articulated it well. Is it safe to assume you understand how data is transmitted from the Tidal to your music server and finally your DAC ? If not, I suggest you read up on them first, otherwise we aren't volume matched

    In short, the noise is "potentially" in the analog domain and it manifests into different shape and form by the network events - that is what many manufacturers/designers seem to believe and there is NO measurements to demonstrate this. Someday we will figure it out but for now we don't know why. Let me be very clear about this. The streaming packets itself doesn't carry any noise or grunge but the act of streaming itself causes churns to occur in a way it effects the sound quality. That is why I said earlier, my local storage sound better than NAS but I have not optimized my network to the extent possible due to various reasons.

    I hope I am able to clear some of it. I understand its complex, messy and not easily digestible.
    I am now more confused than ever. You certainly made it as clear as...mud.

    First it was 'Unfortunately, no one (I literally mean no one) has ever found a way to measure anything or prove anything.' Then, 'The noise is '"potentially" in the analog domain' but somehow 'many manufacturers/designers seem to believe and there is NO measurement to demonstrate this'. Yet somehow, other manufacturers are able to design products to fix the problem that 'no one (I literally mean no one)' cannot even measure or prove. And yet some audiophiles are buying these products!

    Maybe it is time for folks to realize that the reason why the problem is 'complex, messy and not easily digestible.' or 'Someday we will figure it out' is because the noise only exists on some people's heads.

    Nearly 50 years ago, humans landed a spacecraft in Mars!! It is just science guys.

  25. #175
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    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Here comes the rain again....

  26. #176
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    Re: Ethernet switch box

    see the switch as a conditioner......or actually better as a separator (the signal you want from the billions you dont want)

  27. #177
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    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Quote Originally Posted by Devg View Post
    Here comes the rain again....
    loooooooooooooool

  28. #178
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    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    The thing that is confusing me about this conversation. Some say that the signal, the data packets coming from Tidal or Quobuz, or whatever are not affected, others believe that data is data and weather it is traveling across lines around the world or inside your network it is the same thing, a data pack that requires be converted by the DAC. If there is no difference then why would a higher audiophile switch make any differences at all. Some have even stated that the difference is that "Tidal and Quobuz are not doing any D/A conversion", and so if this is the case then only the DAC would matter since it is the only piece of gear actually performing D/A conversion. Maybe I am thick, maybe I have Alzheimer's, but my mind tells me the data travelling across the lines around the world can certainly affect things the same way as those inside my network??? If it is only the DAC then why do my AQ Coffee USB cables sound better than the basic Wireworld I replaced, or generic ones for that matter?
    All good questions Randy. Did you get your hearing checked after you bought the AQ Coffee USB cable ?

  29. #179
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    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Quote Originally Posted by Devg View Post
    ...You just contradicted yourself
    No, I have been quite consistent in my stance about streaming music and me; whether or not all the refinements many choose for their streaming setups make an audible difference may be one factor in that decision, but not the major one.
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  30. #180
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    Re: Ethernet switch box

    I enjoy streaming, no real hangups, simple , my ears hear music and I like it, the wifes enjoys it, but I stay away from the choice of the Blue Pill or Red Pill. As one can cost you a lot and give you hardly any noticeable payback for the upward cost vs what you already have. . And I don't have to keep up " with the Jones".

  31. #181
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    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Quote Originally Posted by Devg View Post
    All good questions Randy. Did you get your hearing checked after you bought the AQ Coffee USB cable ?
    Yup... By listening to good music .
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  32. #182
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    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    Yup... By listening to good music .
    Not enough. I meant, did you have it measured objectively ? It is just science dude.....

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    Re: Ethernet switch box

    An underlying question does remain though; if we arenít able to measure what an Ethernet switch does, how are they being designed (much less rated or evaluated for sonics)? Or is it only the audio effects which canít be measured? Or did I not understand devg and pumacatís discussion/disagreement about this earlier? And why couldnít the switch function be built into the server or streamer?
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    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    An underlying question does remain though; if we arenít able to measure what an Ethernet switch does, how are they being designed (much less rated or evaluated for sonics)? Or is it only the audio effects which canít be measured? Or did I not understand devg and pumacatís discussion/disagreement about this earlier? And why couldnít the switch function be built into the server or streamer?
    The Aurender ACS10 has built in, the necessary Ethernet filtering. The main Aurender (W20SE in my case) then plugs into the ACS10ís filtered Ethernet port.


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  35. #185

    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    An underlying question does remain though; if we arenít able to measure what an Ethernet switch does, how are they being designed (much less rated or evaluated for sonics)? Or is it only the audio effects which canít be measured? Or did I not understand devg and pumacatís discussion/disagreement about this earlier? And why couldnít the switch function be built into the server or streamer?
    Companies who design, manufacture, and test switches can certainly measure what an Ethernet switch does. Things get dicey when utility products that have been used for decades by commercial companies get the audiophile makeover. Things start getting gold plated and products that used to be dirt cheap before they received the audiophile makeover now suddenly become as expensive as source components. Then marketing kicks in with a slew of buzz words to describe all of the improvements that have been made to standard utility products that have proven their ability to work in commercial environments under constant use for many years. Switches are one example and Ethernet cables are another example.

    You can purchase a standard 3 meter Ethernet cable for $8.04 or you can purchase an Audioquest 3 meter Diamond Ethernet cable for $2899.95.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, PS Audio DSJ DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

  36. #186

    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    An underlying question does remain though; if we arenít able to measure what an Ethernet switch does, how are they being designed (much less rated or evaluated for sonics)? Or is it only the audio effects which canít be measured? Or did I not understand devg and pumacatís discussion/disagreement about this earlier? And why couldnít the switch function be built into the server or streamer?
    We are able to measure the key functionality for a good-sounding Ethernet switch. As for how they are being designed, how the EtherREGN is designed is fully described at UpTone Audio's web page for ER. Have you read it?

    As for putting RJ45 connectors, PHYs and flip-flops into a streamer, you could it, but it has to be done correctly. These other manufacturers need to be able to measure high-source leakage impedance current, which is not easy or straightforward. Even the design of the isolation transformer cores is important. Are these manufacturers using grounded center taps for the transformer cores to prevent AC leakage jumping from port to port if here is more than one port? None that I know of.

    More to the point, the circuitry between ports on the ĎAí side decreases phase-noise effects to some degree, but not nearly as much as crossing the ĎAí>íBí moat. It is the differential isolators used in conjunction with the differential flip-flops that delivers the performance of the EtherREGEN. The differential isolators prevent the data-borne clock signature from getting onto the ground-plane of the PCB, while the differential flip-flops prevent the signature from getting into the flip-flopís own internal ground network. Are other switch manufacturers doing this? None that I know of.

    These other manufacturers need to be able to measure high-source leakage impedance current, and create two isolation zones, as I've described abovet to obtain the benefits ER provides for audio streaming applications; this is not easy or straightforward to do.

    I've referenced and linked the white paper by John Swenson not once, but twice. It is worthwhile reading it.

  37. #187
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    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    ... I've referenced and linked the white paper by John Swenson not once, but twice. It is worthwhile reading it.
    White papers are opinion, not fact or evidence. This is at least the second time you have mischaracterized it. I'm not saying you don't have good points, or that you might (or might not) be "right", but it's not appropriate to present promotional material and opinion as fact or evidence.

    So far, everything here suggesting that "audiophile" ethernet switches provide an audible advantage over the filtering in a streamer appears to be all subjective, like so much in this hobby. And also like so much in this hobby, subjective opinions can and will differ.
    Rob
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  38. #188

    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    White papers are opinion, not fact or evidence. This is at least the second time you have mischaracterized it. I'm not saying you don't have good points, or that you might (or might not) be "right", but it's not appropriate to present promotional material and opinion as fact or evidence.

    So far, everything here suggesting that "audiophile" ethernet switches provide an audible advantage over the filtering in a streamer appears to be all subjective, like so much in this hobby. And also like so much in this hobby, subjective opinions can and will differ.
    Have you read it?

    If you had, you'd see that the white paper is an engineering paper based on data, and is therefore not opinion nor promotional material. Thus, it was not being mischaracterized. It was linked, but not posted, and therefore not presented.

    And...its not subjective. Just as f=ma or pv=nRT are not subjective.

  39. #189
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    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    Have you read it?
    Yes

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    If you had, you'd see that the white paper is an engineering paper based on data, and is therefore not opinion nor promotional material. Thus, it was not being mischaracterized.

    And...its not subjective.
    Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    Just as f=ma or pv=nRT are not subjective.
    This part is true
    Rob
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  40. #190
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    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    You can purchase a standard 3 meter Ethernet cable for $8.04 or you can purchase an Audioquest 3 meter Diamond Ethernet cable for $2899.95.
    @Mike, what do you think ? You have all kinds of high/low profile stuff in your arsenal. Does the Audioquest sounds the same as the one from Amazon ?

    In my system, the ones from Amazon actually transmits and receives bit-by-bit data accurately with appropriate latency and there is no TCP re-transmission or timeouts or dropouts, neither there are errors in the PHY or MAC statistics on the receiving end. I even tried a full-duplex line rate at 1.44M packets/sec from an Ixia port and they all work out Ok, though there are some drops in the receiver end which is to be expected at these high data rates and the cables aren't the problem. Having said that, for some reason or the other the $8.04 ethernet cable sounds like a $8.04 ethernet cable, until I tried 4 different ones - JCAT, Sablon, Wireworld and SoTM. This is why I moved to fiber which is dirt cheap as the $8.04 ones and saved a ton of money. If someone is interested in JCAT or Sablon, please PM me (I sold the others).

  41. #191
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    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Quote Originally Posted by Devg View Post
    @Mike, what do you think ? You have all kinds of high/low profile stuff in your arsenal. Does the Audioquest sounds the same as the one from Amazon ?

    In my system, the ones from Amazon actually transmits and receives bit-by-bit data accurately with appropriate latency and there is no TCP re-transmission or timeouts or dropouts, neither there are errors in the PHY or MAC statistics on the receiving end. I even tried a full-duplex line rate at 1.44M packets/sec from an Ixia port and they all work out Ok, though there are some drops in the receiver end which is to be expected at these high data rates and the cables aren't the problem. Having said that, for some reason or the other the $8.04 ethernet cable sounds like a $8.04 ethernet cable, until I tried 4 different ones - JCAT, Sablon, Wireworld and SoTM. This is why I moved to fiber which is dirt cheap as the $8.04 ones and saved a ton of money. If someone is interested in JCAT or Sablon, please PM me (I sold the others).
    Me? No. And the Shunyata Alpha, Sigma and Omega are my faves.


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  42. #192
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    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    Things get dicey when utility products that have been used for decades by commercial companies get the audiophile makeover. Things start getting gold plated and products that used to be dirt cheap before they received the audiophile makeover now suddenly become as expensive as source components. Then marketing kicks in with a slew of buzz words to describe all of the improvements that have been made to standard utility products that have proven their ability to work in commercial environments under constant use for many years.
    I despise this as well. There is no reasons to have audiophile makeover for off-the shelf utilitarian items based off great IEEE standards with tight SI and leakages. Today you can get 10-port with 2x10G ethernet switch for $200 but we have to pay $640 for a audiophile 6-port switch which is even limited to 100Mbps on one port. Today's technology can do 400G per port and we can have many in a single unit. I for one would like to save my money if there is a way and this has been my quest as well.

  43. #193
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    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    An underlying question does remain though; if we arenít able to measure what an Ethernet switch does, how are they being designed (much less rated or evaluated for sonics)?
    Good question. You can send an email to the designer/manufacturer and see what they have to say. I don't think anybody here can answer to your satisfaction since none of here has designed them. I would be curios to know as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    And why couldnít the switch function be built into the server or streamer?
    Many reasons but honestly I won't go over it since its extremely difficult to convey anything in this thread

  44. #194

    Re: Ethernet switch box

    If you couldnít measure what an Ethernet switch does, then they couldnít have been designed, manufactured, and tested so letís stop saying you canít measure what an Ethernet switch does.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, PS Audio DSJ DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

  45. #195
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    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    And why couldnít the switch function be built into the server or streamer?
    actually multiple products have some kind of filtering inside.
    for example the melco servers have even outputs, so they can be used as a switch.

    a big part of the improvement comes from putting 2 switches or more in serial. this is for galvanic decoupling as well.
    you want your own switch for each unit in best case scenario, however, even if you have a built in unit, you still will benefit from more switches and theyr superior quality.

  46. #196
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    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    We are able to measure the key functionality for a good-sounding Ethernet switch. As for how they are being designed, how the EtherREGN is designed is fully described at UpTone Audio's web page for ER. Have you read it?

    As for putting RJ45 connectors, PHYs and flip-flops into a streamer, you could it, but it has to be done correctly. These other manufacturers need to be able to measure high-source leakage impedance current, which is not easy or straightforward. Even the design of the isolation transformer cores is important. Are these manufacturers using grounded center taps for the transformer cores to prevent AC leakage jumping from port to port if here is more than one port? None that I know of.

    More to the point, the circuitry between ports on the ĎAí side decreases phase-noise effects to some degree, but not nearly as much as crossing the ĎAí>íBí moat. It is the differential isolators used in conjunction with the differential flip-flops that delivers the performance of the EtherREGEN. The differential isolators prevent the data-borne clock signature from getting onto the ground-plane of the PCB, while the differential flip-flops prevent the signature from getting into the flip-flopís own internal ground network. Are other switch manufacturers doing this? None that I know of.

    These other manufacturers need to be able to measure high-source leakage impedance current, and create two isolation zones, as I've described abovet to obtain the benefits ER provides for audio streaming applications; this is not easy or straightforward to do.

    I've referenced and linked the white paper by John Swenson not once, but twice. It is worthwhile reading it.
    interesting!
    i d love to see you winning experiance with other manufactors switches as well.

  47. #197
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    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Quote Originally Posted by Devg View Post
    ...Many reasons but honestly I won't go over it since its extremely difficult to convey anything in this thread
    Except that it often is part of the streamer...
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  48. #198
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    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    I do think there could be sonic improvements to be had by replacing a SMPS with a linear power supply, but Iím not sure all digital devices will benefit equally. In my setup, I would like to hear the difference with a linear power supply powering my Roon Nucleus+ vice the wall wart it comes with.
    Where you not scoffing at me some post back. How dare I insinuate your system leaves performance on the table. And here you are saying gains could be had. So which is it.

  49. #199

    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingrex View Post
    Where you not scoffing at me some post back. How dare I insinuate your system leaves performance on the table. And here you are saying gains could be had. So which is it.
    Talking about linear power supplies in this thread was an offshoot that started after I mentioned digital dingleberries. This occurred after you decided to butt in with comments about my digital rig. Your comments about the backbone of my digital rig needing to see a digital chiropractor had nothing to do with linear power supplies.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, PS Audio DSJ DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

  50. #200
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    Re: Ethernet switch box

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    Talking about linear power supplies in this thread was an offshoot that started after I mentioned digital dingleberries. This occurred after you decided to butt in with comments about my digital rig. Your comments about the backbone of my digital rig needing to see a digital chiropractor had nothing to do with linear power supplies.
    It has everything to do with it. Your telling people an off the shelf switch fed with cat 8 terminated on premise (I assume) is just as good as a EtherREGEN with say and AQ cinnamon cable. I believe that is hogwash. So I say your leaving performance on the table. You then imply I have no knowledge of how to make it better. Well I do, as do others who have explained all the small parts and pieces that make up a significantly better whole. Your digital system, especially the steaming portion is not optimized. An optimized steaming system will come close to the performance of stored on rhe hard drive playback. On the hard drive will beat it. But it gets good enough that you stop worrying about where the media came from. Hard drive, NAS or internet. It all sounds darn good. Yes it cost more money. Maybe $2k to $3k to do an entry to mid level package correct. After that you could spend another $3k, but that is going to bring a smaller gain than the first outlay. And for how much money people are spending on DAC and servers. Many ponying up $20k to $30k or more, its foolish to not invest the $3k to set the digital backbone right.

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