DSD, The last thing we need.... - Page 9
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  1. #81
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    Re: DSD, The last thing we need....

    Quote Originally Posted by FlexibleAudio View Post
    I already mention the PCM DACs I consider good. Prices are on line. My point was I didn't realize we were talking about which format was better at a particular price.

    I didn't know for sure either which is why I asked you the questions I asked. You mentioned 3 companies that make DACs as ones that make PCM sound good. MSB has DACs that sell for $74,950, at least one Trinity DAC sells for $41,900, and the latest DCS stack is over $108K. This validates the question I asked you when you wanted to know what DACs I used and after I told you, you said my comments all "made sense now." My reference DAC and the Lampi DAC I recently reviewed aren't in those ballparks with regards to cost which is what I thought you were hinting at. So while it may be clever to say you didn't realize we were talking about which format was better at a particular price, you certainly insinuated to me that was exactly what you were talking about. So my question to you remains the same, how much does a PCM DAC cost that can make PCM sound the way you know it can sound?

    DACs age faster than dogs do. The rule of thumb is every year in a dog's life is equivalent to 7 years of a human life. And that is at least as fast as DACs age. A $100+k DAC stack today will be blown away by the sound quality of a $2k DAC within two years of the $100k DAC being released. Why in the world would you spend $50k to a $100k for a PCM DAC in order to make PCM sound decent? You can put very expensive lipstick on a pig and dress it in versace dresses and it will be a fancy looking pig, but your still dating a pig. I would rather date a hot chick with a pair of Levis, a T-shirt, and no makeup.


    And my point in saying all of this is that a $1.600 Mytek Stereo 192 will make DSD sound incredible. If it takes at least $40k for PCM to compete with DSD, I think we have a problem.

  2. #82
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    Re: DSD, The last thing we need....

    The Mytek doesn't sound that good, IMO. It is a great DAC for the price, but I was glad it came with a 30-day trial period.

  3. #83
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    Re: DSD, The last thing we need....

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    The Mytek doesn't sound that good, IMO. It is a great DAC for the price, but I was glad it came with a 30-day trial period.
    How much PCM did you listen to vice DSD with the Mytek? Look, I'm not trying to say that the Mytek competes with DACs many times it price on PCM or DSD. What I am telling you is that it sounds real damn good with DSD. If I only listened to PCM, I probably would have sent the Mytek back within the fist 30 days too. My Creative Labs stand alone DAC that cost around $200 when new sounds as good as the Mytek does playing back PCM. The Mytek has even more wowie-zowie bass over PCM than the Creative Labs DAC does, but I already find PCM bass more than a little unnatural so having more of that type of bass didn't excite me.

  4. #84
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    Re: DSD, The last thing we need....

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    There a quite a few DAC's which use that chip (a typical delta-sigma design); I don't doubt that your Bel Canto sounds good, but I doubt you can ascribe its performance to the DAC chip.
    It is part of the equation for a great sounding system. No one component does it alone.
    George
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    My Instrument of Precise Music Reproduction

    Custom C.A.P.S. Reference Music Server with UpTone Audio JS-2 External Linear Power Supply > Bel Canto REFLink Asynchronous USB Converter > AT&T ST Optical Glass Fiber > Bel Canto DAC3.7 DAC > Pass Labs XP-20 Preamp > Pass Labs XA160.5 Class A Mono Blocks > Martin Logan Summit X Speakers

    Powered By 2X BPT 3.5 Signature Plus Ultra | Shunyata Research Hydra Triton | UpTone Audio JS-2 LPS | CyberPower Sinewave UPS


  5. #85
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    Re: DSD, The last thing we need....

    Quote Originally Posted by iosiP View Post
    Yes DSD sounds more like analog, in that it has less punch and dynamic than PCM.
    A violin sonata in DSD will sound better (mellower and less fatiguing) than the same in PCM, but when you go to Joe Satriani - not to mention Ted Sirota or Queensryche - DSD just spells "It's sleepy time down South"
    My experience is the complete opposite. Mind you, I was at the time listening to a PBD MPD-5 which converts all to DSD. I was at the darTZeel demo room listening to a CD on his reference system , ie Evol Acoustics MM3 ($75K) and the PBD, powered by Dart Preamp and Dart $150K mono blocs. Just for comparison, Herve put on the same album in vinyl via his EMS TT and the LP had waaaaay more dynamics.
    NORMAN
    Custom PC with Memory Player Software Suite/ Modded Denon CD transport>Lampi GG1 (and sometimes PACIFIC) DHT tube Dac> Rowen 850W Isolating Transformer/ Rowen SS Preamp and PA1 monoblocs/Lampi Silk power cond. with Phase flipper> Heil AMT KITHARA & Syrinx in parallel hookup. Swiss cables (Reference line) for PC/interconnects and speaker cables. Goldmund Sweetcord PC. FTA Callisto unpowered USB cable. Basic analog: vintage Lenco L78 TT with Rowen mat, Denon MM cart, iFi iPhono2 with 15v Hynes SR3 LPSU. Synology 12 TB NAS. 2nd system:KenWin Bluetooth speaker 3rd system TBI Millemnium amp with Aulos speakers and SB Duo hookup.

  6. #86
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    Re: DSD, The last thing we need....

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Guys - I've been on the DAC Merry go round a long time. I've owned north of 20 DAC's and in many cases - the format/resolution was often a driving factor in "upgrading".

    I don't want to spoil my review - but the Lumin S1 handles everything - including DSDx2 (and yes, I have downloaded some tracks recorded in DSDx2 and its phenomenal) - and it sounds incredible. PCM - especially Redbook - sounds amazing. Ditto for the A1.

    I would personally not own the Lampi. I see it one step removed from DIY. I know Norman loves it - but Lampi's QC issues are well known.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I have had Lampi Dacs for 3 years and never had an issue. As they are hand built all possible issues can be corrected. The last serial number I saw was about 700, so tons have been made and many happy campers out there. I just got an email from an audio software maker who says that he has 25 customers usiing a Lmapi and all seem very happy. He now wants to hear one for himself and as he lives about 3 hours away, we may manage to link up.

    If you want that sound, you have to take the plunge.

    The Lampi Big7 is creating a storm of demand among those in the know. The EML 45 Directly heated Triodes apparently sound supreme and the Dac is a monstor on BOTH PCM and DSD.

    The real secret sauce of Lampi DSD is that its a separate Dac in the box to PCM. The 2 cant coexist properly on the same circuit.

    Bruce Brown: Lampizator DSD DAC Review

    Scott: LampizatOr DSD DAC: First Listen (Updated & Revisited) | Confessions of a Part-Time Audiophile
    NORMAN
    Custom PC with Memory Player Software Suite/ Modded Denon CD transport>Lampi GG1 (and sometimes PACIFIC) DHT tube Dac> Rowen 850W Isolating Transformer/ Rowen SS Preamp and PA1 monoblocs/Lampi Silk power cond. with Phase flipper> Heil AMT KITHARA & Syrinx in parallel hookup. Swiss cables (Reference line) for PC/interconnects and speaker cables. Goldmund Sweetcord PC. FTA Callisto unpowered USB cable. Basic analog: vintage Lenco L78 TT with Rowen mat, Denon MM cart, iFi iPhono2 with 15v Hynes SR3 LPSU. Synology 12 TB NAS. 2nd system:KenWin Bluetooth speaker 3rd system TBI Millemnium amp with Aulos speakers and SB Duo hookup.

  7. #87
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    Re: DSD, The last thing we need....

    Quote Originally Posted by wisnon View Post
    My experience is the complete opposite. Mind you, I was at the time listening to a PBD MPD-5 which converst all to DSD. I was at the darTZeel demo room listeing to a CD on his reference system , ie Evol Acoustics MM3 ($75K) and the PBD, powered by Dart Preamp and Dart $150K mono blocs. Just for comparison, Herve put on the same album in vinyl via his EMS TT and the LP had waaaaay more dynamics.
    This is my experience too and I don't have that level of gear that Herve does. I have a Technics SP-10 MKII table with an SME 312s arm and a Dynavector XV-1s cartridge which normally plays through my Krell KPE Reference phono preamp. That goes into my ARC REF 5SE and then into my ARC REF 75. I have had a pair of Nola KO speakers on order since March, but alas, they are not here yet. In the meantime, I have a pair of the Wilson Benesch ART monitors and dedicated stands and a pair of Def Tech Ref subs that have 14" woofers powered by 1800 watt amps. I'm currently reviewing the Manley Chinook phono preamp so that is in my system now instead of my Krell.

  8. #88
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    Re: DSD, The last thing we need....

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    Almost no currently produced DAC's are "optimized for PCM"; virtually all (and certainly all "affordable" ones) are based on delta-sigma chips, which means that PCM needs to be converted while DSD doesn't (although it may be upsampled). Both Charles Ayre and PS Audio allude to this in previously linked interviews or white papers. This might be at least part of the reason that DSD "sounds better" to many listeners.

    If you want a DAC that is "optimized" for both PCM and DSD the PS Audio may be the one you want, although I would certainly want to consider the various Lampi's as well.
    AMR, Metrum Octave, CH Precision, certain GD-Audio, Phasure, etc,indeed there are many NOS R2R multibit type Dacs available out there. Many use the BB1704 chip.

    I think the PS Audio compromises DSD in its attempt to boost PCM. Its not a big one, but still all the extra computation and processing is not needed. they should have done a discrete path for DSD…economics won that battle.
    NORMAN
    Custom PC with Memory Player Software Suite/ Modded Denon CD transport>Lampi GG1 (and sometimes PACIFIC) DHT tube Dac> Rowen 850W Isolating Transformer/ Rowen SS Preamp and PA1 monoblocs/Lampi Silk power cond. with Phase flipper> Heil AMT KITHARA & Syrinx in parallel hookup. Swiss cables (Reference line) for PC/interconnects and speaker cables. Goldmund Sweetcord PC. FTA Callisto unpowered USB cable. Basic analog: vintage Lenco L78 TT with Rowen mat, Denon MM cart, iFi iPhono2 with 15v Hynes SR3 LPSU. Synology 12 TB NAS. 2nd system:KenWin Bluetooth speaker 3rd system TBI Millemnium amp with Aulos speakers and SB Duo hookup.

  9. #89
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    Re: DSD, The last thing we need....

    Quote Originally Posted by FlexibleAudio View Post
    Thanks alexandre. Good post.

    Analog will be my foundation but am trying to decide which digital train to jump on. Its a challenge to find a single DAC that plays true 1 bit and multi-bit at a high level. Seems like the choice is one or the other.
    The key is to avoid "chip-based" DACs. Every single DAC based on discrete components that I heard sounded much better than any chip-based DAC.

    MSB, dCS, Metrum, Chord, TotalDAC, Playback Designs, are some of the manufacturers that don't use off-the-shelf chips. Of course, they don't all sound alike, because they all have different price points (and analog stages, and component quality, etc.).

    But if you want something that'll do top notch PCM and top notch DSD, the MSB Analog DAC is a good start, and an end as well, as you can add more ports later. And to future-proof it, it's also software upgradeable.

    Another very impressive unit, that was also mentioned here, are the Playback Designs MPD/MPS-5.


    alexandre

  10. #90
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    Re: DSD, The last thing we need....

    LoL

    Alex read the link to the Bruce brown review I posted above comparing Lampi DSD to PBD.

    A pal of mine in NYC has a MSB platinum plus stack with the Galaxy 2 clock upgrade and 2 weeks ago he got his Lampi Big7… The Lampi appears to be beating the MSB with only 50 hours run in! And this is on PCM and it uses a chip for PCM! The DSD module is chipless and is only marginally better than the PCM in the Big 7. His opinion, not mine as I have not heard it yet. There are no absolutes in this hobby.

    This same pal owns a PS Audio Direct stream, a Mytek, a Master 7 and a Chord Hugo.
    NORMAN
    Custom PC with Memory Player Software Suite/ Modded Denon CD transport>Lampi GG1 (and sometimes PACIFIC) DHT tube Dac> Rowen 850W Isolating Transformer/ Rowen SS Preamp and PA1 monoblocs/Lampi Silk power cond. with Phase flipper> Heil AMT KITHARA & Syrinx in parallel hookup. Swiss cables (Reference line) for PC/interconnects and speaker cables. Goldmund Sweetcord PC. FTA Callisto unpowered USB cable. Basic analog: vintage Lenco L78 TT with Rowen mat, Denon MM cart, iFi iPhono2 with 15v Hynes SR3 LPSU. Synology 12 TB NAS. 2nd system:KenWin Bluetooth speaker 3rd system TBI Millemnium amp with Aulos speakers and SB Duo hookup.

 

 
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