Thread: Denafrips Terminator dac ...

Originally Posted by PeteG

There's something about the sound I just love about the I2s input, even after using a DH AES/EBU cable from my Lumin to Terminator for about four days I had to go back to the I2s input.

It depends on the quality of the cable too. I use an MIT AES/EBU, which costs almost as much as an Yggy, but which does make a difference. I get the freakish micro detail from my transport through that cable, others are less successful.

Originally Posted by PeteG

To be fair I do listen to a lot of DSD, another reason for I2s.

Understandable. I don't play DSD.

There is progress, with running the DAC continuously. The DAC is even more outrageously detailed than my Yggy1. The sound seems a bit more natural than even just yesterday. Very transparent sound. The 6th string quartet by Bartok (Emerson Quartet, DGG) had sounded very detailed with the Yggy, but the last slow movement with its legato playing fell a bit flat. Not so with the Terminator. The string sound maintains detailed vibrancy, and has a transparent "there" quality. Its mind blowing how good this is. There is also enormous energy.

There is excellent rhythm and timing (rock) and the bass is incredibly precise. Quantity of bass is still a bit underwhelming, but I expect that to change.

Next week a friend will bring his Yggy2, then I can compare. I'm prepared for a long slog of break in.

Are you using the Terminator in NOS mode or off so it upsamples internally?

Originally Posted by Al M.

There is progress, with running the DAC continuously. The DAC is even more outrageously detailed than my Yggy1. The sound seems a bit more natural than even just yesterday. Very transparent sound. The 6th string quartet by Bartok (Emerson Quartet, DGG) had sounded very detailed with the Yggy, but the last slow movement with its legato playing fell a bit flat. Not so with the Terminator. The string sound maintains detailed vibrancy, and has a transparent "there" quality. Its mind blowing how good this is. There is also enormous energy.

There is excellent rhythm and timing (rock) and the bass is incredibly precise. Quantity of bass is still a bit underwhelming, but I expect that to change.

Next week a friend will bring his Yggy2, then I can compare. I'm prepared for a long slog of break in.

Going from my transport, I like it better with NOS off.

This is the review I would have written if I could have written a review. Replace the names of all the DACs he compared to the ones I have had and it is exactly my sentiments.

Originally Posted by audio.bill

Here's a new review of the Denafrips Terminator DAC from Audio Bacon.

Originally Posted by jbtrio

Going from my transport, I like it better with NOS off.

I also play from transport and use upsampling, with NOS off.

Originally Posted by rjc1845

The various reviews of the Termy seem to vary. Some find it slightly on the warm side of neutral while others find it slightly cool of neutral. Guess it’s system dependent.

Yes, that seems to be the case. I actually bought the DAC hoping for a weightier and warmer sound on orchestral music, while still having great resolution of micro detail. All the reviews that I had read suggested that it would go that way. Instead I got supreme transparency and even better resolution of micro detail than the Yggy1. Is it less warm, cooler, than the Yggy? I don't think so, the sound is just more illuminated from within, translucent.

Regardless, I'm hooked. Once you've heard that transparency, it's hard to go back. I checked my impressions from post #103 with a direct comparison. My memory did serve me correctly. The Yggy1 sounds slightly subdued in comparison with the sublime transparency of the Terminator, which may contribute to why on the legato playing in the slow mvmt. of Bartok's 6th string quartet there is more perceived micro-resolution of tone with the Terminator. Also elsewhere there is just that extra fraction of micro detail. Let's see how the Yggy2 compares, which I should be able to listen to next week.

After continued break-in, the bass quantity now is in more normal, comfortable territory. The precision of the bass and the PRAT are outrageous. When the drummer hits the kickdrum in rapid fire repeats, you hear each kick clearly and separately.

So what do I do with the weight of tone? I need an active preamp anyway (my otherwise extremely resolving Pass B1 buffer strains on orchestral music), and perhaps the natural partner for my Octave 320 amp, the Octave HP 700 pre, will deliver that. I'll find out upon audition. And I can get it with an optional module for balance and tone control, which I may employ just for certain orchestral recordings, and which otherwise can be by-passed. That module alone costs more than an Yggy, but that's another story. I'd rather spend a large amount of money on a really great preamp than on a DAC. DAC performance just changes too fast, and a DAC like the Terminator already has outrageous resolution, a resolution that I want my preamp to capture at its fullest.

Originally Posted by nc42acc

This is the review I would have written if I could have written a review. Replace the names of all the DACs he compared to the ones I have had and it is exactly my sentiments.

Yes, that's quite the review. I am wondering why he didn't use the AES/EBU (which I use) or i2S inputs of the DAC, inputs that usually are considered superior. This might have lead to a slightly different assessment of the naturalness of tone, but who knows.

Another thought about naturalness of timbre. I don't believe in audiophile power cords after having experienced some mucking up of the sound by quite expensive ones (e.g., more synthetic sound of massed strings from a DAC, aargh). The reviewer in Audio Bacon uses audiophile power cords, so that may be part of his assessment of tone. I use standard power cords, more specifically the 14AWG cable from Tripp Lite that you can buy at Amazon for $ 6.43.

Several of my audiophile friends have also lately reverted to stock power cords, and experience a more natural sound.

In any case, one characteristic that I forgot to mention from my listening impressions of Terminator vs. Yggy1, but which seems a common thread through diverse kinds of music: the Terminator DAC simply sings more.

Al that is a door you need to open. Slippery slope but you will hear differences. Start out used or lower end models. Borrow from local audiophile friends that went the other direction. My only assesment of your friends going back to generic is it revealed nasties the generic cords mask. I scratch my head every time I hear a sonic difference with a power cord.

Originally Posted by Al M.

Another thought about naturalness of timbre. I don't believe in audiophile power cords after having experienced some mucking up of the sound by quite expensive ones (e.g., more synthetic sound of massed strings from a DAC, aargh). The reviewer in Audio Bacon uses audiophile power cords, so that may be part of his assessment of tone. I use standard power cords, more specifically the 14AWG cable from Tripp Lite that you can buy at Amazon for $ 6.43.

Several of my audiophile friends have also lately reverted to stock power cords, and experience a more natural sound.

In any case, one characteristic that I forgot to mention from my listening impressions of Terminator vs. Yggy1, but which seems a common thread through diverse kinds of music: the Terminator DAC simply sings more.

Al M., try a Triode Wire Labs Obsession pc or a Cerious Technologies Matrix pc these will enhance the tonal qualities and everything else.
If you don't like I think they have a good return policy. Pete and Bob are great to deal with.

Joe

Originally Posted by nc42acc

Al that is a door you need to open. Slippery slope but you will hear differences. Start out used or lower end models. Borrow from local audiophile friends that went the other direction. My only assesment of your friends going back to generic is it revealed nasties the generic cords mask. I scratch my head every time I hear a sonic difference with a power cord.

No, it was not masking of nasties. Resolution and transparency did not decrease, it just sounded more natural. Sometimes a $ 6.43 solution can be superior to a $ 3,000 solution, no kidding.

A friend came over this afternoon and was amazed how natural the Terminator sounded; it was on generic power cord. The reviewer from Audio Bacon must have mucked up the Terminator with his fancy "audiophile" power cords: that's probably why he didn't find it that natural sounding.

Al that is funny.....I fell down the slippery slope of power cords after switching them on my Nord 1200AS amps. Some changes are not always to the good......I am glad you are enjoying the Terminator.

Originally Posted by Al M.

No, it was not masking of nasties. Resolution and transparency did not decrease, it just sounded more natural. Sometimes a $ 6.43 solution can be superior to a $ 3,000 solution, no kidding.

A friend came over this afternoon and was amazed how natural the Terminator sounded; it was on generic power cord. The reviewer from Audio Bacon must have mucked up the Terminator with his fancy "audiophile" power cords: that's probably why he didn't find it that natural sounding.

Originally Posted by Al M.

Another thought about naturalness of timbre. I don't believe in audiophile power cords after having experienced some mucking up of the sound by quite expensive ones (e.g., more synthetic sound of massed strings from a DAC, aargh). The reviewer in Audio Bacon uses audiophile power cords, so that may be part of his assessment of tone. I use standard power cords, more specifically the 14AWG cable from Tripp Lite that you can buy at Amazon for $ 6.43.

Several of my audiophile friends have also lately reverted to stock power cords, and experience a more natural sound.

Al,

I just ordered a couple of those cords to try in place of my 'audiophile-approved' power cables.

My thought was/is - at this price why not try it?

If it delivers more Dynamics, Presence & Tone, it'll mean greater musical engagement - at least for me.

I do plan to burn them in for three days or so on my AudioDharma cable cooker before trying them.

Did you have a preference for what they did on amps or on sources?

Originally Posted by nc42acc

Al that is funny.....I fell down the slippery slope of power cords after switching them on my Nord 1200AS amps. Some changes are not always to the good......I am glad you are enjoying the Terminator.

Yes, I am loving it! In fact, your decision to buy it and your positive feedback on the sound were the trigger to make me explore it, first through reviews, then through the actual purchase, so thanks Marty!

Originally Posted by Jim Smith

Al,

I just ordered a couple of those cords to try in place of my 'audiophile-approved' power cables.

My thought was/is - at this price why not try it?

If it delivers more Dynamics, Presence & Tone, it'll mean greater musical engagement - at least for me.

I do plan to burn them in for three days or so on my AudioDharma cable cooker before trying them.

Did you have a preference for what they did on amps or on sources?

Hi Jim,

I look forward to your impressions. I have to admit, I didn't compare them to anything, I just knew that, after hearing comparisons in friends' systems, I did not want to have audiophile power cords . Currently I am auditioning a preamp, and my dealer also gave me an Audioquest Dragon power cord to try. To be honest, I cannot bring myself to actually try it, I'm much more interested in more evaluation of the preamp per se.

***

I just looked it up, OMG, that is one expensive PC! For that price I can almost get a substantially better preamp from the same brand (Octave), which I probably will be shooting for anyway. No way, Jose.

Al I always worry about giving armchair keyboard reviews. Not everyone likes the same things in the way DACs sound. Give the Terminator a few more weeks and it will sound even better. I leave mine powered on 24/7.

Originally Posted by Al M.

Yes, I am loving it! In fact, your decision to buy it and your positive feedback on the sound were the trigger to make me explore it, first through reviews, then through the actual purchase, so thanks Marty!

Originally Posted by nc42acc

Al I always worry about giving armchair keyboard reviews. Not everyone likes the same things in the way DACs sound. Give the Terminator a few more weeks and it will sound even better. I leave mine powered on 24/7.

Thanks, Marty. Yes, I leave it powered on, and currently play for break-in, 24/7. This week I will evaluate it some more against the Yggy2 before I have to make a decision to keep it or not, but so far I have heard no reason not to.

Originally Posted by rjc1845

Al, Any update on your comparison to Yggy 2?

Terminator seems to clearly win at this point. Details later, after repeat testing (I want to be solid in my conclusions).

Originally Posted by jriggy

One reason for varying reviews of the Termi may be break-in time. I aquiered one with supposedly around 250 hours +/- on it. It was good. But midrange texture and detail, and high-end extension, among other fine nuances, came out more after another couple hundred hours. The difference could be taken as warmish to then more neutral (cooler to some?) after more time.

I heard tons of midrange texture and detail right away, from the cold unit shipped directly from Hong Kong, burned in at factory for 100 hrs. In the evening that day I heard already richness and nuance greater than with Yggy1.

Originally Posted by jriggy

Nice!

It was comparing it to a Lampi Atlantic. the Termi got closer and closer to the inner detail and texture of those mids after some more time.

Great, I look forward to what further break in may bring.

That speaks highly of the Terminator in that comparison.

Originally Posted by jriggy

Nice!

It was comparing it to a Lampi Atlantic. the Termi got closer and closer to the inner detail and texture of those mids after some more time.

Originally Posted by nc42acc

That speaks highly of the Terminator in that comparison.

The Audiostream review of the Lampi Atlantic (which I haven't heard) compares it with the Terminator DAC, and claims the latter has a cooler yet more detailed and textured, while equally organic sound, with better soundstage and dynamics.

Thanks Al......Soundstage, dynamics and bass are the many things I like about the Terminator.

Originally Posted by Al M.

The Audiostream review of the Lampi Atlantic (which I haven't heard) compares it with the Terminator DAC, and claims the latter has a cooler yet more detailed and textured, while equally organic sound, with better soundstage and dynamics.

O.k., here is my comparison Terminator DAC vs. Yggdrasil Analog 2 DAC (Yggy2).

Conclusions from yesterday are the same as from two nights earlier. I just wanted to nail this down without any doubt. Source driving the DACs is a Simaudio Moon 260 DT transport (Redbook CD) through an MIT SL-Matrix Plus AES/EBU cable (that expensive cable contributes quite a bit to signal quality). Both DACs are continuously on 24/7, the Terminator is also played 24/7 as it is still considered to be in break-in phase.

John McLaughlin and the 4th Dimension, live at Ronnie Scott's: The electric piano opening track 2 (Myles Beyond) is considerably more detailed, richer and open sounding on the Terminator. The electric guitar opening track 5 (New Blues Old Bruise) is more gravelly sounding, and there is a designed electric "post-echo" on each note that is only faintly audible on the Yggy, while being very clear on the Terminator. This impression has not changed from day 1 (really, the Terminator was just a few hours warm). I knew back then right away that there was more richness and nuance compared to the Yggy (Yggy1 back then), even though I hadn't heard those tracks in a while. The current comparison with the Yggy2 directly confirms that.

The drum solo in track 9 (Echoes From Then) sounds more lively and dynamic on the Terminator. I don't think that the dynamics are actually different per se, but the Terminator is just more "outspoken" and thus the impact of the dynamics seems greater. The strong rhythmic drive on both DACs is comparable.

The mid-bass of the Yggy2 may be just a tad more pronounced than on the Terminator, but the latter may not yet be sufficiently broken in (?). Bass control is comparable between the two DACs; here the Yggy2 also has made good progress compared to the Yggy1.

Interesting that on this John McLaughlin record the difference in detail between Terminator and Yggy is actually stronger than on some string quartet recordings, where the Yggy on some passages shines just as brightly as the Terminator when it comes to micro detail, whereas the latter trounces it on other passages.

Schubert, Winterreise (Winter Journey), with Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau (baritone) and Joerg Demus (piano). The voice on this famous recording sounds more open and harmonically richer, more expanded, on the Terminator DAC. In comparison the Yggy2 sounds muffled and smaller on the voice, even though the tone has comparably strong body. The transparency and feeling of the performer being "there" is just so much stronger on the Terminator. The piano also sounds more convincing on that DAC.

Stockhausen, In the Sky I am Walking (1977 recording, Stockhausen Verlag). Here the two voices (mezzo soprano, tenor) sound comparably transparent on both DACs, with a really strong feeling of presence -- when you listen in the dark at realistic level, it can actually be frightening, how real it is. Yet even here, the Terminator is more precise and clean in timbre and thus even more convincing in its presentation.

On other recordings the Terminator also consistently paints a richer harmonic palette, and is more open sounding than the Yggy. Is it cooler sounding than the Yggy2? I don't think so at all. The Yggy does not sound warmer, it sounds darker. The richer, harmonically more expansive tone of the Terminator DAC effectively counters an impression of less warmth that might arise from its more pronounced treble (which is extremely clean and pure) and greater openness of sound. As I said before when comparing with the Yggy1, the Terminator does not sound less warm, it sounds more luminous.

There is no doubt in my mind that the DENAFRIPS Terminator DAC is superior. It remains in my system, no return!

A round of applause for the Terminator DAC, please.

Originally Posted by Al M.

O.k., here is my comparison Terminator DAC vs. Yggdrasil Analog 2 DAC (Yggy2).

Conclusions from yesterday are the same as from two nights earlier. I just wanted to nail this down without any doubt. Source driving the DACs is a Simaudio Moon 260 DT transport (Redbook CD) through an MIT SL-Matrix Plus AES/EBU cable (that expensive cable contributes quite a bit to signal quality). Both DACs are continuously on 24/7, the Terminator is also played 24/7 as it is still considered to be in break-in phase.

John McLaughlin and the 4th Dimension, live at Ronnie Scott's: The electric piano opening track 2 (Myles Beyond) is considerably more detailed, richer and open sounding on the Terminator. The electric guitar opening track 5 (New Blues Old Bruise) is more gravelly sounding, and there is a designed electric "post-echo" on each note that is only faintly audible on the Yggy, while being very clear on the Terminator. This impression has not changed from day 1 (really, the Terminator was just a few hours warm). I knew back then right away that there was more richness and nuance compared to the Yggy (Yggy1 back then), even though I hadn't heard those tracks in a while. The current comparison with the Yggy2 directly confirms that.

The drum solo in track 9 (Echoes From Then) sounds more lively and dynamic on the Terminator. I don't think that the dynamics are actually different per se, but the Terminator is just more "outspoken" and thus the impact of the dynamics seems greater. The strong rhythmic drive on both DACs is comparable.

The mid-bass of the Yggy2 may be just a tad more pronounced than on the Terminator, but the latter may not yet be sufficiently broken in (?). Bass control is comparable between the two DACs; here the Yggy2 also has made good progress compared to the Yggy1.

Interesting that on this John McLaughlin record the difference in detail between Terminator and Yggy is actually stronger than on some string quartet recordings, where the Yggy on some passages shines just as brightly as the Terminator when it comes to micro detail, whereas the latter trounces it on other passages.

Schubert, Winterreise (Winter Journey), with Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau (baritone) and Joerg Demus (piano). The voice on this famous recording sounds more open and harmonically richer, more expanded, on the Terminator DAC. In comparison the Yggy2 sounds muffled and smaller on the voice, even though the tone has comparably strong body. The transparency and feeling of the performer being "there" is just so much stronger on the Terminator. The piano also sounds more convincing on that DAC.

Stockhausen, In the Sky I am Walking (1977 recording, Stockhausen Verlag). Here the two voices (mezzo soprano, tenor) sound comparably transparent on both DACs, with a really strong feeling of presence -- when you listen in the dark at realistic level, it can actually be frightening, how real it is. Yet even here, the Terminator is more precise and clean in timbre and thus even more convincing in its presentation.

On other recordings the Terminator also consistently paints a richer harmonic palette, and is more open sounding than the Yggy. Is it cooler sounding than the Yggy2? I don't think so at all. The Yggy does not sound warmer, it sounds darker. The richer, harmonically more expansive tone of the Terminator DAC effectively counters an impression of less warmth that might arise from its more pronounced treble (which is extremely clean and pure) and greater openness of sound. As I said before when comparing with the Yggy1, the Terminator does not sound less warm, it sounds more luminous.

There is no doubt in my mind that the DENAFRIPS Terminator DAC is superior. It remains in my system, no return!

A round of applause for the Terminator DAC, please.

Can I ask what your definition of 'sounds darker". I've seen;

Dark refers to a prominent bass with recessed treble

Dark: "A warm, mellow, excessively rich quality in reproduced sound. The audible effect of a frequency response which is clockwise-tilted across the entire range, so that output diminishes with increasing frequency."

Dark; a blendy sound, skewed to emphasize bass rather than treble.

Thanks , nice review

Thanks for the report, Al- any other dacs you’ve compared with?

Originally Posted by CPP

Can I ask what your definition of 'sounds darker". I've seen;

Dark refers to a prominent bass with recessed treble

Dark: "A warm, mellow, excessively rich quality in reproduced sound. The audible effect of a frequency response which is clockwise-tilted across the entire range, so that output diminishes with increasing frequency."

Dark; a blendy sound, skewed to emphasize bass rather than treble.

Thanks , nice review

Thanks.

I wouldn't say the Yggy is dark, it is *darker* than the Terminator.

Darker = less treble

Originally Posted by KeithR

Thanks for the report, Al- any other dacs you’ve compared with?

Thanks, unfortunately no MSB yet

Originally Posted by CPP

Dark refers to a prominent bass with recessed treble

Dark: "A warm, mellow, excessively rich quality in reproduced sound. The audible effect of a frequency response which is clockwise-tilted across the entire range, so that output diminishes with increasing frequency."

I think there might be more definitions for the term, especially if you read reviewer comments.

Typically it means a fuller sound, w/o being bloated in difference to a “warm” sound. It is also used as an opposite to a “lean” or “thin” sound.

But of course, YMMV.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by Kuoppis

I think there might be more definitions for the term, especially if you read reviewer comments.

Typically it means a fuller sound, w/o being bloated in difference to a “warm” sound. It is also used as an opposite to a “lean” or “thin” sound.

But of course, YMMV.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yep "it sounds like" , so many definitions by so many people. I liked Gordon Holts https://www.stereophile.com/content/...ssary-glossary

Originally Posted by CPP

Yep "it sounds like" , so many definitions by so many people. I liked Gordon Holts https://www.stereophile.com/content/...ssary-glossary

First time I came across the term “dark” was in Jonathan Valin’s review of Soulution amps. As he elsewhere in the article described the amp as the best he has ever heard, I don’t think it had any negative connotation in his use.


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Update: I have decided not to keep the DAC. I got the Yggdrasil Analog 2 upgrade instead.

After my review I heard an Octave HP 300 SE preamp in my system. On some material my Pass B1 buffer (no gain) preamp has a slight synthetic and/or metallic coloration when driving my Octave RE 320 amp, which the Octave preamp does not have, easily audible in direct comparison. In the absence of this coloration it turns out that the Yggy 2 sounds more natural on some music, especially solo violin and string quartets. This is very important to me since I am a string quartet fan. I still think the Terminator is a great DAC that many will be happy with, but ultimately it's just not for me.

I will soon get an Octave HP 700 preamp, which I look forward to. It should be killer, given that the HP 300 SE is already so good.

Very interesting, Al.

How does the 2nd version compare to your original? I'd be keen to hear the Holo at that price point as well.

Originally Posted by KeithR

Very interesting, Al.

How does the 2nd version compare to your original? I'd be keen to hear the Holo at that price point as well.

Keith,

the version 2 may be a bit warmer sounding, but I didn't compare them on the Octave preamp, which would have told me more about fidelity of tone.

All I know is that on some recordings, through the Octave preamp, the Yggy 2 sounded with the most natural timbre from solo violin and string quartet that I have ever heard from digital (I haven't heard MSB yet). Beautifully wooden tone from violin in lower and middle register, and silvery but oh so sweet and delicate tone (when the music allowed) in the high register. The wooden tone from cello was stunning too. Transients seemed just right, micro detail from bowing, and from string and wood body resonances was excellent.

What is more, it was among the most natural tone from those instruments I have heard on any system, including vinyl based ones (and I have heard exquisite vinyl playback). It was quite something.

Until I have my own Octave preamp I listen to other music. Vocals for example sound great also through the Pass B1 buffer. On vocals though the Terminator was also fantastic competition to the Yggy 2.

Hello guys,


Like to share the users' impression of the DENAFRIPS DAC.

denafrips.com/news


I am extremely happy and encouraged to read these positive impressions. This is simply the best encouragement and drive for me to continue what i am doing and i will do better!




Thank you for your support!


Alvin Chee

I've owned the Terminator DAC since April and enjoyed the improvement it made over my Yggy A2. The Yggy is a great DAC and I think an excellent value. I still own it and use it in a secondary system. Compared to the Yggy, both connected over AES with a DH Labs D-110 cable from a Bryston BDP-2 with upgraded IAD, the Terminator has more detail and more texture in the bass. Otherwise, the sound is surprisingly similar, meaning the tonal balance and presentation are not too different. I've had other DACs in my system that had significantly different sound.

Earlier this week, I received my Denafrips Gaia DCC. I connected the Gaia directly to my Roon ROCK via USB (AQ Diamond), instead of using the Bryston streamer. Initially, I connected the Gaia to the Terminator using the same DH Labs AES cable. Having the Gaia in the system made a noticeable improvement in clarity and detail, but it wasn't dramatic. On Wednesday (only the second day), I plugged in a cheap 3ft HDMI i2s cable between the Gaia and the Terminator. Wow! After a few hours, this made a huge improvement. I'm blown away by the difference. And this is with a brand-new $12 cable. Significantly better clarity and detail, sharper imaging, and the bass (particularly mid bass) has more weight and texture. It's hard to stop listening.

I've now got a Tubulus Argentus i2s cable on order. Can't wait to hear what this does.

I too am interested in the Terminator. A question for comparative reviewers in this thread. How did you match levels when comparing these DAC’s? What tools and procedures did you use? Just curious.

Originally Posted by W9TR

I too am interested in the Terminator. A question for comparative reviewers in this thread. How did you match levels when comparing these DAC’s? What tools and procedures did you use? Just curious.

They also have a Terminator - Plus, from what I read a major overall of the older Terminator.

New video review of Terminator and Terminator Plus.

Denafrips' Flagship DACs for the most serious audiophiles - YouTube