Thread: Berkley Alpha Reference DAC (mini) Review

Originally Posted by wisnon

Yes, 176 is the best conversion setting as its and integer multiple (Quad rate) and so NO rounding math involved. At least that is what Thorsten told me.

I have JRiver set to 176 for DSD playback thru the Bel Canto and it sounds magnificent.

George, can you start a new thread and give us a teaser mini-review? Please throw us a bone.

Originally Posted by wisnon

Hahahah

I was just seeing if it was yours for sure, given you live in Fla and implied it was yours. Great machine, I am sure.

Sorry you are missing out on the DSD "revolution" though. No format wars, as both formats sound great when well recorded, but DSD 128 for me is plain heavenly…even needledrops on my Lampi DSD decoder. I will try the upsampling on the fly with HQP later on, after I get Windows with Audiophile Optimiser.

I've heard many DSD Dacs and I feel I'm not missing out what so ever. I truly am able to listen to the music and not the equipment as it sounds so right! That's all that matters in the real world.

We need to organize another Suncoast Audiophile Society DAC "shootout" comparing Howard's Berkeley Audio Reference vs. George's Bel Canto 3.7 and my Bel Canto 3.5 MKII, vs. ? others!

Originally Posted by sleepysurf

We need to organize another Suncoast Audiophile Society DAC "shootout" comparing Howard's Berkeley Audio Reference vs. George's Bel Canto 3.7 and my Bel Canto 3.5 MKII, vs. ? others!

I'm in! I'll bring my R2R as the benchmark.


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Originally Posted by audio.bill

Now wait a minute, that's not playing fair! I'd suggest keeping comparisons within the digital domain to maintain a valid point of reference.

I just listened to Jacintha's hi-res Danny Boy - the R2R is better but it's much closer than I thought it would be.

Originally Posted by dlb2

Thanks Mike. So for a lot less money someone could own a Lumin that sounds just as good, has more inputs and plays dsd?
I'm not picking on the Berkley, but it seems like every month there's another "the next big dac" out. Why would someone pay that much money for what seems an incomplete piece of gear?

Sent from my mobile.

My thoughts exactly. At $16K it needs to touch all the bases, especially inboard USB input and DSD. Thanks for the mini review, Mike!

Ken

Originally Posted by JDLaudio

I can bring the PS Audio Direct Stream and the Hilo too.

We need a big 7 Lampi. Hmmm....


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Originally Posted by Audioseduction

I've heard many DSD Dacs and I feel I'm not missing out what so ever. I truly am able to listen to the music and not the equipment as it sounds so right! That's all that matters in the real world.

Most Dsd dacs are converting to a form of pcm internally. Thorsten Loesch gives a good explanation in his audiostream interview.

In any case, do enjoy your dac. I am doing the same and do so in native format/native rate. No conversion zone and no additives, no preservatives. ;-)

So there is someone out there with a Reference server! Great! I'm curious about them and keep thinking I should try one, which here in Europe means buying one. My experience is that digital transport is ridiculously, and surprisingly, important. I like that there is no sound card and no USB, which skips two unnecessary steps on the signal's path (USB card in the server and USB card in the DAC) ; and a lot of the solutions in the Berkeley reference are similar to what we've been using in our DAC4 (the amp. op., the transformers, the upsampling...) with results we're happy with. So maybe, just maybe, a server like the Baetis could finally bring us a computer audio solution that matches our best CD-players.

Originally Posted by Alpinist

My thoughts exactly. At $16K it needs to touch all the bases, especially inboard USB input and DSD.

Um, it's called the Reference, not the All Purpose.

Have you read the interview Robert Harley did with Michael Ritter? It follows the review of the Reference DAC in the October TAS. Michael is well aware of the marketing benefit adding DSD capability would have bestowed but is absolutely convinced that having the DAC chip do double duty converting DSD to PCM would have a detrimental effect on the sound. He could have added DSD decoding for almost zero cost, far less than the price of the JRiver license they include with the DAC so you can convert your DSD to PCM. Berkely is pretty fussy about the DSD > PCM conversion and was going to write their own software for it, but found that JRiver was "doing it right".

Regarding the USB input, Michael had this to say: "There may be a time when it makes sense for us to introduce a lower-cost DAC with a USB input, but when you're shooting for the ultimate in performance, which is what we did with the Reference Series... you absolutely don't want to connect the DAC directly to the computer or router. They have large amounts of electrical noise that gets injected into the DAC's ground, or the noise is capacitively coupled through the input. A separate isolation/reclocking device [a USB to SPDIF converter] for computer-audio playback is essential if you're going for the state of the art".

howard,

why not optical usb cable?

your thoughts please.

Originally Posted by wisnon

howard,

why not optical usb cable?

your thoughts please.

You mean into the Reference? There's no place to put it.

lol

I meant as a design possibility the Bard guys could have chosen. No rfi crud passed as signal converted to optical and back at the other end. Dac usb must be self powered, as this cable can only do a handshake

Originally Posted by wisnon

lol

I meant as a design possibility the Bard guys could have chosen. No rfi crud passed passed as signal converted to optical and back at the other end. Dac usb must be self powered, as this cable can only do a handshake

Sorry, I knew what you meant.

It's a good question for Michael Ritter.

lol

OK sir.

You are a stitch. I like that.

Originally Posted by wisnon

lol

I meant as a design possibility the Bard guys could have chosen. No rfi crud passed as signal converted to optical and back at the other end. Dac usb must be self powered, as this cable can only do a handshake

Like the Bel Canto DAC3.7vb?

yes, but using the generic long Corning Optical cable,its available to all now via USB connection.

I ordered one to test out and so did a pal in nyc. I heard good things about it at headfi. $110 for 33ft means its worth a shot.

will let you know as more feedback rolls in.

Guys,

How would the PS Audio DS compare? Is it even a contender with the Berkeley, Lampi, and Lumin?

Originally Posted by JDLaudio

Although I'm in the early stages of setup for the Berkeley, the PS Audio is on equal footing as far as DSD goes. When PS Audio did their update on the Direct Stream, the DSD playback got maybe another 10% better.......but the redbook playback went backwards maybe 15% IMHO. They softened up the top end a bit too much for my liking. If they could have kept redbook the same and only modified DSD playback, I think the Direct Stream would be nearly equal to the Berkeley. But that is considering my small amount of time to dial in the Berkeley. I usually try 50 or more combinations of IC's, digital cables, and power cords before settling on what sounds best to me. The Berkeley has @ 600 hours now, so it should be starting to find its voice.
I did leave the unit on for 18 hours straight yesterday, as some stated it would sound better fully warmed up. It sounded mostly the same to my ears, but I will keep it on for several days to fully test this suggestion.
As far as the Lumin/PS Audio comparison, I liked the PS Audio better because of much better bass performance. But I have to qualify this preference, as this comparison was done in Mike's upstairs listening room. And it has known bass issues that can create havoc. This comparison was done "pre-Strad". So the results might be totally different, now that he has the Sonus Fabers up there. Maybe the PS Audio was leaner in the bass, and helped out a room with bass issues ?? Although, the Direct Stream is providing outstanding bass in my new 28' X 24' room. So I doubt it is lean in the bass region. The Lumin did a bit better job fleshing out detail in the 2k to 5k frequency range. And with the new software update for the Direct Stream, this would be even worse because of the softening in the upper frequency region.
This is the best comparisons I can offer so far. Like I said, it is very early in the review process for me. I try to spend at least a couple of months with a new piece of gear, and try every combination I have at hand. I usually flesh out major improvements with every piece of gear, once I stumble upon the right combination. I definitely avoid snap decisions, as synergy is the key IMHO.
Early score......8k-10k good. Still searching for 16k of value. But I believe it's there. Now, back to audio wack-a-mole !!!

Why not just leave the Berkeley on 24/7 like it was meant to be? That's why there's no on/off switch on it. It only cost 2 cents a day. From Howard "Sandman" who owns the Berkeley says it sounds better left on. I also leave my Bel Canto on 24/7 for better QS playback. That's what Bel Canto recommends to do.

To me, there was no comparison. The Lumin A1 was better than the DStream. The S1 will be even better. The Berkley on redbook was better yet again.


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Originally Posted by JDLaudio

I usually try 50 or more combinations of IC's, digital cables, and power cords before settling on what sounds best to me.

Okay.

Originally Posted by JDLaudio

I did leave the unit on for 18 hours straight yesterday, as some stated it would sound better fully warmed up. It sounded mostly the same to my ears, but I will keep it on for several days to fully test this suggestion.

"Mostly" the same? So you don't hear any improvement with warm-up at all, or you find that it does improve but doesn't take the 12 hours Berkeley recommends? If it's the latter, how long does it take to full warm-up in your estimation?

Originally Posted by JDLaudio

I actually don't believe it made a difference. At first I thought maybe there was a microscopic bit of improvement . But after 3 hours of listening to my favorites, I honestly do not think it made a difference.

Interesting! I can't argue with you - since mine is always on I don't hear the warm-up. I was going by the manufacturer's recommendation on that. I did notice the unit sounded wonky when I first added it to my system but it improved rapidly over a couple of hours. I'm assuming that was break-in and not warm-up.

For some reason (and no one seems to quite know why from my survey), warming up with digital is not a matter of hours, but days. On Linn streamers it is known that at least 48h are needed before they sound their best, and that is staying constantly plugged. Even changing the plug or the power chord sets you back. I heard the same about Lumin.

Calling it "warming up" or "breaking in" may be misleading, as this is clearly not related to thermal equilibrium (it is perfectly stable in a few hours), even less to mechanical effects. Cables are part of the equation, as is the whole system. When I compared my server to my CD player, physically unplugging the CD player (that was on the same strip) was essential to the server standing a chance.

On my Antipodes server, the first couple of hours is brilliant, then it gets kind of tamed, almost boring for a couple of days before sounding awesome. As I said just plugging and unplugging essentially restarts a cycle. Some say it shouldn't be so, and some say it can't be so, but in my experience it is unavoidable in the current state of gear. This is why I don't take a computer audio source with me when touring, unless I know the host can keep the machine strictly plugged for a whole week (and then that makes for very long tours, obviously...).

It's bad for DACs, but worse for digital transports. Indeed there is a reason why most high end one don't even a power switch (or it doesn't actually shut down the power supply).

From my experience with computer audio, it can be great but a good turntable is easier, more reliable and more affordable in terms of getting great music, and a CD player is in-between.

Originally Posted by JDLaudio

After your first fire, you may be a bit more concerned. We had DJ equipment burst into flames, and caused substantial damage to our night club. Also had a amplifer catch on fire. It can happen. So this scenario is always in the back of my mind.

Then you need to turn off your refrigerator, hot water heater, smoke detectors, unplug your oven, microwave and many more electrical/electronic equipment. May be best to just turn off all your main breakers.

Originally Posted by JDLaudio

To be perfectly forthcoming, this comparison was totally flawed (IMHO) in every way. We did not compare the Diresct Stream dac to the Lumin dac. We compared the Lumin to an Apple Mini server / Direct Stream dac / digital cabling (compared to no digital cabling for the Lumin) / two different ac cables / and different interconnects. We should have connected the Direct Stream to Lumin's digital output, for a more faithful A/B comparison. But I believe we left it that way for quick comparison. So nothing could be further from a direct comparison than this was.
I do not say this to create favor for either piece of gear. But rather, I bring attention to the problems I think any new piece may face.....when being demo'ed. We have our perfectly balanced systems that we all work hard (months or years) to perfect, via numerous try-outs of amps, preamps, ac cables, IC's, speakers, room treatments, etc. Then we bring in a new piece of gear to try and de-throne our reference piece. What kind of fair comparison can the new piece of gear get, without going through the same careful process ?? It's doomed from the start, in many cases.
That's why I go through at least a couple of months of trial and error, trying every combination of cabling/gear combos I can come with. Even then, I cannot necessarily declare a winner. I can proclaim that I have found a synergy between certain pieces of gear that work well together. Now if a piece of gear craps on everything it is paired with, I will then label it an unworthy contender.
So I do not necessarily find auditions/demo's/shootouts very helpful to determine what might work well in someone else's system. It must be done in each person's own system, with an immense amount of experimenting. Of course, these are my own mindless/crazy methods to find audio satisfaction. Just thoughts for mull over, if you wish.

I have a proper bnc cable on order. Bring it back for round two.

I'm surprised you've found the DirectStream firmware upgrade a step backwards with Redbook. I wonder what is going on there? Maybe the Berkley's superb Redbook has spoiled you?

The BNC cable will allow you to easily A/B the two. I'm looking forward to round two. The Lumin will stream through its DAC and its digital outputs simultaneously. I did this with my AMR DP-777, Lumin S1 into #2, the AMT into #3. I could just switch back and forth between the preamp's inputs seamlessly.

My only question was if the AMR was better fed by the Mac Mini via USB, or the Lumin via BNC.

Originally Posted by Mike

I have a proper bnc cable on order. Bring it back for round two.

I'm surprised you've found the DirectStream firmware upgrade a step backwards with Redbook. I wonder what is going on there? Maybe the Berkley's superb Redbook has spoiled you?

This is getting really interesting folks...

Originally Posted by JDLaudio

I didn't have the Berkeley when PS Audio did their software upgrade. I miss those nice crisp highs it had. But the Berkeley is definitely delivering. I had about a 3 hour listening session last night, and there is no denying how good DSD can be. WOW. Even with J River doing the conversion on the fly, it's a major step up in SQ on many DSD recordings. It could be that they take much more care in recording some of these, I don't know ?? But I do not want to be without DSD right now.
I am trying to get the speaker placement right on the MBL's. The soundstage is not as good as I had it before, and it is causing a lot of distraction. So the Berkeley is not getting my full attention at this point. I also haven't found a good match on the BNC/BNC cable yet either. I will go to the BADA USB box next, but one thing at a time.
What's really bothering me is how well the Spatial's are sounding. That system was thrown together in about 30 minutes.....odd ball cables....etc. And it's kicking my better system's butt BIGTIME. The Direct Stream is in that system. Go figure.

jdl,

my buddy AL made Exactly the same observation. Indeed, he kept both firmwares and rolls them for different formats and genres. It takes 2 minutes to roll via usb stick. Quite cool and PSA is quite silly not to support with a memory buffer and offering other firmware that they have

Originally Posted by JDLaudio

I didn't have the Berkeley when PS Audio did their software upgrade. I miss those nice crisp highs it had. But the Berkeley is definitely delivering. I had about a 3 hour listening session last night, and there is no denying how good DSD can be. WOW. Even with J River doing the conversion on the fly, it's a major step up in SQ on many DSD recordings. It could be that they take much more care in recording some of these, I don't know ?? But I do not want to be without DSD right now.
I am trying to get the speaker placement right on the MBL's. The soundstage is not as good as I had it before, and it is causing a lot of distraction. So the Berkeley is not getting my full attention at this point. I also haven't found a good match on the BNC/BNC cable yet either. I will go to the BADA USB box next, but one thing at a time.
What's really bothering me is how well the Spatial's are sounding. That system was thrown together in about 30 minutes.....odd ball cables....etc. And it's kicking my better system's butt BIGTIME. The Direct Stream is in that system. Go figure.

For clarity,

can you list out the components if both systems? I am a bit lost.

Originally Posted by JDLaudio

By the way Mike (Ritmo), I'm using the BDP-2/Direct Stream combo and it's dynamite !! Just thought you might appreciate that info since you own one. The Bryston continues to impress me. Now I need to get off my but and figure out the BDP-2/Manic Moose software/DSD output situation. I need to get in touch with James to get a copy of that on a USB stick. I want to get DSD going on the Bryston !!

Great to know! The BDP-2 is such a great sounding server. Are you using the digital balanced into the BADA? If so, what brand cable?

Funny enough, I have yet to do the Manic Moose (MM) upgrade as well. With MM the BDP-2 will play DSD via USB. Maybe I need to do the same and get the stick from James and Bryston.