Thread: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

Originally Posted by a.wayne

Crap , i thought Nyquist told you ....

No, but his Cold and Flu Nightime stuff is great

Originally Posted by a.wayne

Thanks for this detailed response and its pretty obvious your digital smokes your analog in your current setup , my only disagreement is you keep throwing in cost, your digital beats your analog not because of cost, as your analog budget is good enough to match or best your digital imo, more comparisons and a few merry go round purchases maybe necessary to get you sorted ..

just recently a friend brought over his new phonostage he was raving over to compare, its on ebay now.


Unfortunately this is how it is ..


Regards ,

Not being defensive with this question, just asking. What analog chain will give amazing results for $9K complete. Table, arm, cartridge, phono stage and cable. I will even give you $15K list since that is my digital list. I just usually try and find a show demo or a return for upgrade unit to save $. That is why I am out more around $9K. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Kingrex

Not being defensive with this question, just asking. What analog chain will give amazing results for $9K complete. Table, arm, cartridge, phono stage and cable. I will even give you $15K list since that is my digital list. I just usually try and find a show demo or a return for upgrade unit to save $. That is why I am out more around $9K. Thanks.

VPI Prime - $4k
Ortofon Cadenza Black - $2600
Manley Chinook - $2k
Furutech Phono Cables - $400


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by Mike

VPI Prime - $4k
Ortofon Cadenza Black - $2600
Manley Chinook - $2k
Furutech Phono Cables - $400


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What is the block in My vinyl? Phono stage? Allnic is suppose to be pretty good. Chinook has a lot of features, not sure it has more fidelity. Little brother to the Steelhead as is mine to the 5000 series. Cartridge is probably better. VPI is nice. I though you would say a Techniques Mark 2 or Lenco.

Of course, its all back to the give it a try and if it does not perform?????

If I want to expend more cash on Vinyl I would probably take Joe Pitman up on lacing a new single strand of high quality tone arm wire from the cartridge tags to the phono stage. I find removing connections always improves sonics.

Originally Posted by a.wayne

BTW, I must have missed the paper on where 90% of the analog soundfield went ...

It was the post that apparently triggered this thread!
http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...l=1#post236903

Originally Posted by Kingsrule

Not an exactly because u always qualify/reference/refer to the price as a consideration which in itself is OK but it's obvious that's a factor in your determination of a component's merit........

Nope, not when it comes to absolute merit. See post # 84 on thread page 9, sentence about the "very best digital".

K, I will give this. I don't have proper vinyl to compare to digital. I have a bastard that may be somewhat ugly. It really does suck to realize I'm that guy. You know, the one who says vinyl is better than digital because he never owned good digital. Just the other way around. I guess I have to face I have never owned good vinyl. What I can say, in listening to quite a few systems in the $300k + range, every time I come home, I really like what I hear from mine. Digital side that is. I just find it very musical and relaxing. I can listen intently, or just read a book and feel totally comfortable. I am satisfied, but still looking to better. Owe brother. Because the vinyl is not easy, and old records are hard to find in good condition, and new ones are as expensive as a month of Tidal, I will most likely let the analog languish and continue to better the digital. I have a lot of tubes and I like how the digital adds jump and clarity. It's pretty darn nice, but you know salesmen, the guy who sold me my RT really likes the Rockna. It is an R2R ladder using the MSB board. I'm not sure how it is better, but every time Alrainbow told me to do something with my server, it got better and better. Because of that, I keep saying on my threads it's a cumulative process with digital to makes it great, so at some point I will make a move on a new DAC. That will be my biggest front end move. At some time I may also try a SS amp. Didn't someone say we need to have a discussion over which is better, SS or Tube!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I read that $9k is not enough to get good vinyl and I think to myself, "is our hobby over pricing itself out of existence". I mean, seriously, how many people out there can truly pay $300k, or $100k, or honestly, even $50k for their audio system?

In our audio club we have maybe one system at that level.... even the writer for Stereophile does not approach those levels...

I think my wife and I do fairly well... yet those levels are not even in the realm of discussion, nor would I want them to be. Many club members consider my setup to be very nice... I am totally happy with it, and yes I believe I have fine tuned my digital (thank you for all the help Mr. Mike!)...

It begins with software and putting together a computer/server that can handle it.... in my case Roon and HQPlayer.... cabling (I settled on the AQ Coffee's after my friend bought the Diamonds and sold me the Coffee's).... a reclocker (W4S Recovery), more cabling (another Coffee), DAC that can do justice to HQPlayer (T+A which can convert 24.6MHz!!!).... more cabling (AQ Earth XLR)... at retail.... about $2500 for server, $500 and $160 for software, cabling at $630 and $1000, $4200 DAC.... so $9k for digital and I consider it world class... maybe my ears are not good enough to appreciate any higher.... ...

I put together a really nice vinyl rig for $9k above. I’m sure there are many other combinations of various turntables and cartridges and phonostages one could come up with for $9k.

The fact remains that digital is just getting better and better. It’s not just the chips, it’s that designers now know the importance of a proper analog output stage (instead of op amps), clocking, power supply, etc. Network integration into DAC’s is also another step we are seeing.

Originally Posted by Randy Myers

maybe my ears are not good enough to appreciate any higher....

The folks claiming objective metrics like price = sound quality aren't using their ears.
They are the ones that fear using their ears the most. They trust their eyes, price tags, street cred, etc.. Lets be very very clear here. There is nothing "subjective" about price. Good luck telling a seller that "subjectively", the price of the $100k TT per you is $2k. See how that flies.
If you want to know why there are almost zero young folks coming in to the hobby like we did at that age and audio events look like freaking Century Village snobby grumps, look no further. Or just go into the million dollar rooms and hear totally shit sound compared to the room 2 floors down that has a $20k system that blows it away.
My 2c

cheers,

AJ

Originally Posted by a.wayne

Precisely Mike ,

is digital good when it beats your analog or is it bad if Your analog beats it , I’m getting the impression some are not interested in optimizing their analog and only want a digital victory , mind you some do the same for Their analog rig , i dont find them mutually exclusive seeing how they actually feed off each other if you have both ..


regards

See my post above re: sales numbers. The numbers don’t lie. But it’s because of the inconvenience, hassle, cost and risks of analog, not the sound, I’m told.

As I round out my offerings, I often think about my analog situation. VPI, Kronos, Rega, ClearAudio, Ortofon even Kuzma (through the Furutech distributor) and still digital is outselling analog 30 to 1 and 8 to 1 in terms of CD players (CD players!!!) to turntables. I have several turntables on display too. I even have a little clearaudio table and iFi phonostage I’ve loaned out, along with records for people to get a taste and nothing. I hear back, “It was nice, but I hated getting up to change the record every few songs.” Let’s face it, call it what you want, but folks love to sit their with their iPads and explore new music, new bands, even new formats at the touch of a button.

Even when I play an album, the customer asks me to hear the X DAC instead, grabs the iPad and happily plays their music, much of which I’m told, isn’t even on vinyl.

Originally Posted by a.wayne

is digital good when it beats your analog or is it bad if Your analog beats it

The latter. If my system/ears were limited to 60db dynamic range and I couldn't hear the poor LF performance in terms of depth and dynamics, etc, etc, etc. then all would be good. If I thought an old analog tube TV looked "subjectively" as good as a new SOTA 4k digital then I'd either have my eyes checked or bin the 4k for being broken. If I thought my old polaroid looked as good as a digital SLR, well, that would be my subjective prerogative also. I just wouldn't confuse my preference for objectively much lower performance, as anything but preference.

Originally Posted by a.wayne

Mike not disagreeing with you , that trend has been with us since the 80’s , i’m suggesting if one has both , they feed off each other ...



Regards

Agreed and well said. But the dilemma, $10k digital and $10k analog or $20k digital or $20k analog? Most are opting to optimize their digital.

And let’s not mention R2R, that’s a whole ‘nother animal.

Originally Posted by a.wayne

Ok so you have not heard a good system with analog vs digital..?


i get it ...

The exact opposite. I regularly hear a system capable of 120+ db dynamic range, with much lower noise, distortion, higher channel separation, lower temporal distortion, vastly better bass depth and power, than any objectively limited vinyl system regardless of price. And I have the demonstrable hearing ability to discern with trust ears/just listening, unlike those who can only brag and make claims with zero demonstrable ability.
I also had my eyes checked yesterday. 20/20. So I can see vastly better picture on a 4k set vs an old analog tube TV. It doesn't look like a "pieced together" missing something picture with my vision. Actually, the old tube TV looks downright poor in a side by side comparison.
But I also totally get it if someone says that "subjectively', they prefer the old tube TV for "clarity" and "smoothness', etc, etc for their eyes.
Preferences are not arguable. Objective metrics/facts are.

cheers,

AJ

Originally Posted by a.wayne

Kids today not into music

Disagree. They are, just not using the 19th-late 20th century tech methods. They may listen even more than we did given the ease and a phone constantly attached to their person

Sure, but 60db ain't the limit either

You still romanticizing old analog CRT sets or you watch 4k digital daily? What's your preference there?

Well, never been to the Munich or any Asian shows, but pics show quite a few youths there. How you reconcile that?

Originally Posted by a.wayne

Your TV analogy dont apply

Except it does. Vastly better objective metrics = better picture. No arguments there other than from crazy luddites.

Originally Posted by a.wayne

going between 60 and a theoretical 120db that dont exist is mute..

Wrong. There is nothing "theoretical" about exceeding 60db of dynamic range with digital. There is nothing "theoretical" about the low frequency performance of vinyl, the noise, distortion, channel separation or any other metric. None.
The only "debate" is among luddites claiming it sounds better...to them, subjectively. They prefer it to objectively superior metrics sound. IOW, there is no debate.

Originally Posted by Randy Myers

I read that $9k is not enough to get good vinyl and I think to myself, "is our hobby over pricing itself out of existence". I mean, seriously, how many people out there can truly pay $300k, or $100k, or honestly, even $50k for their audio system?

In our audio club we have maybe one system at that level.... even the writer for Stereophile does not approach those levels...

I think my wife and I do fairly well... yet those levels are not even in the realm of discussion, nor would I want them to be. Many club members consider my setup to be very nice... I am totally happy with it, and yes I believe I have fine tuned my digital (thank you for all the help Mr. Mike!)...

It begins with software and putting together a computer/server that can handle it.... in my case Roon and HQPlayer.... cabling (I settled on the AQ Coffee's after my friend bought the Diamonds and sold me the Coffee's).... a reclocker (W4S Recovery), more cabling (another Coffee), DAC that can do justice to HQPlayer (T+A which can convert 24.6MHz!!!).... more cabling (AQ Earth XLR)... at retail.... about $2500 for server, $500 and $160 for software, cabling at $630 and $1000, $4200 DAC.... so $9k for digital and I consider it world class... maybe my ears are not good enough to appreciate any higher.... ...

Randy , man enjoy what you got. No need to spend a bunch of money to keep up with the "Jones" as they say or be able to brag about how much your DAC, AMP or Speakers cost.

Metrics such as dynamic range don't equal good sound. I got rid of a DAC because it had to much punch that caused a womp in my ears. It was rough and fatiguing. Now to be fair, I did not have my front end, as in server dialed in yet. My point is dynamic swing is not the end all. You hit a point in any system when loud is loud enough. Your going to start soft clipping, compressing, and making a rough blurred picture. Your going to damage your ears. Far more important is to create beautiful music at low to moderate levels. IMO. Blast away if thats your thing, but it is dangerous to your ears. And if you want to say music is only good if you can create Concert level reproduction, that's an opinion. My opinion is a voice is natural, a violin souda like wood and string, a breath is heard as well as the soft flutter of lips on a saxaphone Reed. When I hear these things at a moderate level, I know I am getting good digital and or vinyl.

Originally Posted by a.wayne

you should go to CES , how do you reconcile audio vs gaming , regardless the youth involvement in audio systems is still small vs gaming world wide ..

No question gaming is huge, nor that young folks are heavily involved. But I dispute the notion they aren't listening to music as much as we did. They just do it via earbuds and phones...an option we didn't have.
Most absolutely do not want a giant audio shrine and refrigerator size horns, hence the increasing popularity of headphones(!!), soundbars, lifestyle type sources and small, wireless active speakers, etc.
heck, I think even old JA is kicking a pair of wireless(?) LS50s these days and scaling back on the bling shrine. Not suggesting by any means that is the ultimate in audio. Preferences are preferences.

Originally Posted by Kingrex

Metrics such as dynamic range don't equal good sound.

It most certainly does to my ears, system and music taste.

Originally Posted by Kingrex

MI got rid of a DAC because it had to much punch that caused a womp in my ears. It was rough and fatiguing. Now to be fair, I did not have my front end, as in server dialed in yet..

IOW, there were 20 other variables other than dynamic range, so it wasn't isolated as a factor.
Maybe low dynamic range is fine for you, again, that's certainly a preference.
For other systems, ears and music taste,>30-60db certainly can be quite detrimental.
I can't tell you how many of those "best" old classical recordings I see elders raving about as the greatest ever in history, that sound like total crap to me. As always, YMMV.
Btw, concert halls can easily have up to 80db dynamic range...if you are familiar with them.

Originally Posted by a.wayne

IMO, kids today are not interested in HiFi systems , regardless of cost

Telling them they need a $100k TT, $50k DAC or GTFO should really have them beating down the door
Maybe they have a lot more sense than we do...

Originally Posted by a.wayne

AJ ,

please give us a list of the recordings with 120db DR, wait , ok 90 dr , no wait 70 DR will do ..

A list would be great so the rest of us plebs can see what we are missing, you can add them to this DR list ..


http://dr.loudness-war.info/

Start here https://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.ph...=Myths_(Vinyl)

Those DR ratios listed aren't definitive at all. I'll splain later.

now show me some vinyl with better objective metrics across the board than digital, distortion, temporal distortion, channel separation, etc, etc,
TIA

The Wiki link has no scientific links to actual scientific test to validate any claims. It could have been written by you.

Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield

Start here https://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.ph...=Myths_(Vinyl)

Those DR ratios listed aren't definitive at all. I'll splain later.

now show me some vinyl with better objective metrics across the board than digital, distortion, temporal distortion, channel separation, etc, etc,
TIA

Originally Posted by a.wayne

.btw what is there to explain about the link ..?

http://www.soundmattersblog.com/meas...e-complicated/

Originally Posted by Kingrex

The Wiki link has no scientific links to actual scientific test to validate any claims.

Oh, is that your standard now? Ok, we'll use that from now on.