Thread: Azimuth adjustment

Besides using a Fozgometer, what are some methods that you guys use to find if your cart is level? I just eyeball mine but I would like to find a way that is quick and easy and precise.

Credit to Jeff Whitlock:

I use a recipe card. Take the card and cut it into an approximately 2 x 2 square. Be careful to leave the BOTTOM of the card in tact as it was cut from the manufacturer. You then place this card in front of the cartridge. Then looking dead on, using the lines on the card, you can line those lines up with the cartridge head. The lines on the recipe card should be perfectly straight and act as a great guide if you don't trim the card bottom.

Does that make sense?

Yeah that makes sense Mike. So the bottom of the card that was cut at the factory goes on the platter or plinth or whatever. Then cut the top of the card close to one of the lines to give you the most accurate reading. Right?

and......place a light behind the index card as this allows you to see things better as you view from the front. this works ok in a pinch!!!

This is a better way.....Take a small mirror placed on the platter with the arm lowered onto the mirror or if you don't have a mirror handy you can use the shinny side of a CD.

Both above work well to a point and the final adjustment is by ear. Using a Fozgometer will indeed get you closer but still the final adjustment is by ear.....it becomes easier once you learn what to listen for.

BTW don't always go by the cartridge body as the stylus may be skewed a smidge......the whole thing with Azimuth is to get the widest channel separation with the least amount of channel cross talk.

Sorry but that method is crude at best with a high end cartridge. I don't find doing it that way is close to desirable.

Question: do you want to measure phase (that many feel is more accurate and sounds the best) like with the Feickert or xtalk like the Foz? Or one can set for xtalk and then fine adjust azimuth by ear.

Some options:

1. Old Audio-Technica cartridge analyzer like I use. Xtalk
2. Foz Xtalk
3. Feickert Xtalk and phase among other things
4. Soon to be released Cartalign from Soundsmith ??? Will also have capability for zenith, VTF, anti skate, etc.

Originally Posted by Myles B. Astor

Sorry but that method is crude at best with a high end cartridge. I don't find doing it that way is close to desirable.

Question: do you want to measure phase (that many feel is more accurate and sounds the best) like with the Feickert or xtalk like the Foz? Or one can set for xtalk and then fine adjust azimuth by ear.

Some options:

1. Old Audio-Technica cartridge analyzer like I use. Xtalk
2. Foz Xtalk
3. Feickert Xtalk and phase among other things
4. Soon to be released Cartalign from Soundsmith ??? Will also have capability for zenith, VTF, anti skate, etc.

My way was based on not having the tools at hand......in a pinch you can get close and then the rest by ear as I mentioned.

How about a turkey roaster pin across the headshell then?

If you're buying a real high end cartridge, why in the world wouldn't you get it set up properly and professionally? That's why you buy from a dealer. In NY I know of someone who does an excellent job and comes to your home.

Thanks guys. I used the index card method and it seems to have helped with the crosstalk. Miles I appreciate the input. Now I have more things to look into.

I'll be the first to say that I may not know what to listen for, as Jeff puts it. I've just recently dove back into vinyl after a long hiatus from it. The last time I set up a turntable I took the cartridge and screwed it on the headshell. I didn't know anything about VTA, anti-skate, or Azimuth and as far as VTF goes I just made sure the arm didn't skip along the record as it played. Just mount the damn thing and plays records! Now everyone thinks you have to be a physicist to mount a cartridge and if you don't come within .00000000000000000001% of having everything perfectly right you're not getting every last bit of information from the grooves. When did it all become so complicated?

Listen to the solidity of the center image.

at 1:20 PM today

Originally Posted by A/V Solutions

at 1:20 PM today

LMAO!

I like the Fozgometer and the Feickert Adjust Plus myself which I use......however if one doesn't have the tools or doesn't want to spend the money there are other ways of getting you there as mentioned above. The index card, mirror or the shiny side of a cd and using your ears can be most effective also. Before we had some of the nifty tools we all did it by sight and ear and we survived.

Originally Posted by A/V Solutions

I like the Fozgometer and the Feickert Adjust Plus myself which I use......however if one doesn't have the tools or doesn't want to spend the money there are other ways of getting you there as mentioned above. The index card, mirror or the shiny side of a cd and using your ears can be most effective also. Before we had some of the nifty tools we all did it by sight and ear and we survived.

Jeff one has no business then buying a really good cartridge without these tools. One can damage an LP pretty easily with these line contact profiles (that didn't exist back then) if not set up exactly. My two cents. Not to mention you're only getting 1/2 of what you paid for

I'm giving this one a rest

Originally Posted by A/V Solutions

I'm giving this one a rest

Smart. . Well, I appreciate your tips Jeff.

I sympathize with your travails. Have you checked with your arm manufacturer if they know anyone? Sometimes if the arm wand is removable, they can even do it. I've even suggested that audio clubs buy say a Foz or Cable Cooker, charge a modest fee to pay for it and then lend it out. Perhaps some of these new audio websites (or hell even these internet cartridge retailers) could offer this service to their members. Sort of like the service the Cable Co. offers.

This person in NY does travel. Can't say what he'd charge but I know he set up Ivan's tables. For those who don't have the money for the Foz, there's the KAB unit that uses a mono record and costs around $80.

If one must, I do prefer sighting with the lightweight turkey roasting pin across the headshell. You can clearly see if the headshell is perpendicular but sadly that's really meaningless. No cartridge that I've set up by eye is remotely close to the final setting by instrument.

If it sounds like I'm on a Crusade (and don't forget Fremer's DVD), it's that many tt and cartridge owners aren't retrieving but a fraction of the information in the grooves because of improper cartridge setup. And the two cheapest ways of realizing a cartridge's inherent potential (I'm assuming everyone has an alignment jig and stylus pressure gauge that preferably goes two digits) that many neglect are azimuth and burning your tonearm wires in.

And I do disagree with Jeff that we got along just perfectly with our analog equipment before all this gear. Our cartridges didn't track as well, there were higher levels of primary and secondary distortion side bands, cartridges were peaky (as well as improvements in arm arm resonance control) and most of all, the cartridges tore up the records. I remember looking to buy a cartridge back in the '80s and as about setting overhang and the salesman looked at me like I was from Mars.

I sympathize with your travails. Have you checked with your arm manufacturer if they know anyone? Sometimes if the arm wand is removable, they can even do it. I've even suggested that audio clubs buy say a Foz or Cable Cooker, charge a modest fee to pay for it and then lend it out. Perhaps some of these new audio websites (or hell even these internet cartridge retailers) could offer this service to their members.

This person in NY does travel. Can't say what he'd charge but I know he set up Ivan's tables. For those who don't have the money for the Foz, there's the KAB unit that uses a mono record and costs around $80.

If one must, I do prefer sighting with the lightweight turkey roasting pin across the headshell. You can clearly see if the headshell is perpendicular but sadly that's really meaningless. No cartridge that I've set up by eye is remotely close to the final setting by instrument.

If it sounds like I'm on a Crusade (and don't forget Fremer's DVD), it's that many tt and cartridge owners aren't retrieving but a fraction of the information in the grooves because of improper cartridge setup. And the two cheapest ways of realizing a cartridge's inherent potential (I'm assuming everyone has an alignment jig and stylus pressure gauge that preferably goes two digits) that many neglect are azimuth and burning your tonearm wires in.

And I do disagree with Jeff that we got along just perfectly with our analog equipment before all this gear. Our cartridges didn't track as well, there were higher levels of primary and secondary distortion side bands, cartridges were peaky (as well as improvements in arm arm resonance control) and most of all, the cartridges tore up the records. The only reason the old cartridges didn't cause more damage back then was that many of them used conical styli that didn't sit nearly as deep in the groove (have you noticed how records that look beat up often sound better than expected because the line trace profile gets areas of the groove that the conical styli couldn't reach?) Not to mention our systems are many times more revealing than yesteryear. I remember looking to buy a cartridge back in the '80s and as about setting overhang and the salesman looked at me like I was from Mars. No, if you're committed to using a line contact or similar stylus profile, one can not go half way.

Well that's the best idea I've heard. We should really get some people together and chip in on some of these items(fozzy, cable cooker, tube tester,demag, etc.) and just send it around to the next guy who needs it.
I was reading my arm info on the manufacturers website(Ortofon) and it says to use the mirror method for azimuth, which I did but I can see it would be easy to not be perfect. But with my arm I don't see a way to adjust it anyway. I have a removable headshell if when I put it in and hold it to the left as far as it goes before I screw it down it looks perfect in the mirror.
And I believe it is good enough, but I would love to know if it was perfect.
But $300 for a fozg. Is a little steep I need like several items that I would use everyday
in that pricerange before one of those. (New el34's I'm using one back up groove tube with my jj's. A better tonearm cable, a better form of surge protection. Which is why my tube blew in the first place, a power surge)
Ortofon does not really give you all the info needed to set up one of their arms perfectly. I'm still messing with arm height and have not found a baseline to work with. Should it be level? Should it have a little downward angle? Which is where
I'm at. Thank the good lord for Jeff to answer all my annoying questions.

Originally Posted by Petro85

Well that's the best idea I've heard. We should really get some people together and chip in on some of these items(fozzy, cable cooker, tube tester,demag, etc.) and just send it around to the next guy who needs it.
I was reading my arm info on the manufacturers website(Ortofon) and it says to use the mirror method for azimuth, which I did but I can see it would be easy to not be perfect. But with my arm I don't see a way to adjust it anyway. I have a removable headshell if when I put it in and hold it to the left as far as it goes before I screw it down it looks perfect in the mirror.
And I believe it is good enough, but I would love to know if it was perfect.
But $300 for a fozg. Is a little steep I need like several items that I would use everyday
in that pricerange before one of those. (New el34's I'm using one back up groove tube with my jj's. A better tonearm cable, a better form of surge protection. Which is why my tube blew in the first place, a power surge)
Ortofon does not really give you all the info needed to set up one of their arms perfectly. I'm still messing with arm height and have not found a baseline to work with. Should it be level? Should it have a little downward angle? Which is where
I'm at. Thank the good lord for Jeff to answer all my annoying questions.

Maybe you should find someone to help set it up for you properly...

I agree with you on the price of the Foz. $300 isn't a huge amount of money but for something that is a one trick pony, and obviously there are others ways to determine Azimuth, I'd rather spend my money elsewhere.

btw...I tried the index card method the other day and then did the mirror method today. This was very easy to do since I actually have a mirror mounted on my Amadeus. The mirror showed that I was off a hair so now it's pretty much spot on. Does it sound any different? Not that I can hear, so either my ears aren't up to the task or my system isn't as revealing as it could be. I'll do more listening tomorrow to determine whether I can hear a difference.

Originally Posted by dlb2

Maybe you should find someone to help set it up for you properly...

I agree with you on the price of the Foz. $300 isn't a huge amount of money but for something that is a one trick pony, and obviously there are others ways to determine Azimuth, I'd rather spend my money elsewhere.

Haha !!! There ain't anyone around here that even comes close to know anything about a turntable. Now if I had a problem with a sub in my car there are 250 places in town to take care of that. I'll be alright as I move the arm up and down the sound changes , right now I'm a little above level with a little down angle and I like it so far. I thought it was tightening my bass too much any lower and too muddy any higher. So I think I'm at a happy medium. I doubt there is a machine other than my ear to figure this out. Messing with my arm and cartridge is great fun all the different setting that can be done I'm on bearwald now but will try loefgren next and I didn't like Stevenson as much as the Baer .

Originally Posted by Petro85

Haha !!! There ain't anyone around here that even comes close to know anything about a turntable. Now if I had a problem with a sub in my car there are 250 places in town to take care of that. I'll be alright as I move the arm up and down the sound changes , right now I'm a little above level with a little down angle and I like it so far. I thought it was tightening my bass too much any lower and too muddy any higher. So I think I'm at a happy medium. I doubt there is a machine other than my ear to figure this out. Messing with my arm and cartridge is great fun all the different setting that can be done I'm on bearwald now but will try loefgren next and I didn't like Stevenson as much as the Baer .

This is what I like to do as well. Try different things, use different methods, figure out what I like the best. All the while learning more and more about my gear and how to set things up better in general. Isn't this the way we all learn? I guess if I had the money to fly someone in to set up my table that would be one way to do it. But I'm more interested in finding out how things work through trial and error, using my own hands instead of my pocketbook.

Originally Posted by dlb2

This is what I like to do as well. Try different things, use different methods, figure out what I like the best. All the while learning more and more about my gear and how to set things up better in general. Isn't this the way we all learn? I guess if I had the money to fly someone in to set up my table that would be one way to do it. But I'm more interested in finding out how things work through trial and error, using my own hands instead of my pocketbook.

So when are you going to start
Messing with the 38 settings on the back of that chinook!!!

Originally Posted by Petro85

So when are you going to start
Messing with the 38 settings on the back of that chinook!!!

LOL!!! Right now I have it set at what Lyra recommends and it sounds darn good. But it won't be long before I start flicking switches...

Originally Posted by Petro85

Haha !!! There ain't anyone around here that even comes close to know anything about a turntable.
... I'll be alright as I move the arm up and down the sound changes , right now I'm a little above level with a little down angle and I like it so far. I thought it was tightening my bass too much any lower and too muddy any higher. So I think I'm at a happy medium. I doubt there is a machine other than my ear to figure this out. Messing with my arm and cartridge is great fun all the different setting that can be done I'm on bearwald now but will try loefgren next and I didn't like Stevenson as much as the Baer .

What about Michael Fremer from Analog Planet?

Originally Posted by NorthStar

What about Michael Fremer from Analog Planet?

I didn't mean here like the internet or forum, I meant here like my neighborhood.
No one is around here until spring anyway and there's no home audio
shops for at least 2 hours drive!!

Originally Posted by Petro85

I didn't mean here like the internet or forum, I meant here like my neighborhood.
No one is around here until spring anyway and there's no home audio
shops for at least 2 hours drive!!

Go digital?

Originally Posted by NorthStar

Go digital?

Tubes and vinyl!!!

My customers love what I do with the Feickert software, among other tools. The Fozgometer may get you in the ballpark, but Adjust+ helps you hit the home run.

Originally Posted by bpw

My customers love what I do with the Feickert software, among other tools. The Fozgometer may get you in the ballpark, but Adjust+ helps you hit the home run.

see now thats something i like, a precise computer program. id rather use my mirror method which is free, but if i start buying lots of cartridges , something like that will come in handy.

You can do mostly the same thing as a Fozgo using a multimeter, though it needs to be a relatively sensitive one. You will still need a record that has a left channel and a right channel only tone on it.

Originally Posted by Petro85

see now thats something i like, a precise computer program. id rather use my mirror method which is free, but if i start buying lots of cartridges , something like that will come in handy.

The mirror method works only if dead level (zero degrees azimuth, i.e. top of the cartridge parallel to the record) is the optimum setting, which in my experience is exceedingly rare, even for expensive cartridges costing into five figures.

Originally Posted by BobM

You can do mostly the same thing as a Fozgo using a multimeter, though it needs to be a relatively sensitive one. You will still need a record that has a left channel and a right channel only tone on it.

The Fozgometer measures channel signal levels and crosstalk. So does the multimeter method. The Feickert software does that plus it does Fast Fourier Transforms to measure phase response. The azimuth settings at which crosstalk levels are matched and at which phase error between channels is minimized (phase response the same for both channels) are most often different. It can be proven empirically that the ear is more sensitive to phase error than crosstalk levels. That said, doing something such as measuring crosstalk can be helpful, rather than setting it level and calling it a day.

Originally Posted by BobM

You can do mostly the same thing as a Fozgo using a multimeter, though it needs to be a relatively sensitive one. You will still need a record that has a left channel and a right channel only tone on it.

How do you adjust for phase?

Originally Posted by bpw

The azimuth settings at which crosstalk levels are matched and at which phase error between channels is minimized (phase response the same for both channels) are most often different.

Case in point, the new Kuzma CAR-50 cartridge I installed here. Phase error is reduced to 4 degrees at the final azimuth setting.