Thread: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

Just came across this video on YT today on the Smith Chart.

When viewing this video, it immediately became clear why aftermarket power cords can provide such an improvement to our audio systems.

Here's an example what happens when the impedance of the "transmission line" does not match the "load impedance". This mis-match causes a "reflected wave" on the circuit, which you don't want to have, as described in the video. Note how the red dot is "off-axis" to the center-line of the polar plot.



Now, when you have the PC's impedance matching that of the "load", you get a much more ideal response, as shown by the red dot in the plot, meaning, no "reflected wave", which is exactly what you want.

In our case, transmission line is the PC from the wall AC receptacle, and the "load" is the FWBR* power supplies inside our amplification components.



And...this is key reason why well-designed aftermarket PCs can provide such an audible improvement in our audio systems: because they can help "match" the impedance of the "transmission line" with the "load".

Don'tcha just love...SCIENCE?

*–FWBR: Full-wave bridge rectifier

Oh dear, oh dear!
HAM radio operators know that AC cords make poor radio antenna cords.

The power company knows that the above chart applies to city-to-city AC power transmission.

* * * * * * * * * *
and even if it does apply to shorter circuits.
Your transmission line starts at that big power company transformer down the street and ends at your hi-fi component.
I don't think that the power company is interested in replacing all that cable.
And Oh, each of your components has a different input impedance and a power amps impedance changes with how much power it's delivering.

Stay away from YT videos.

Originally Posted by Speedskater

Oh dear, oh dear!
HAM radio operators know that AC cords make poor radio antenna cords.

The power company knows that the above chart applies to city-to-city AC power transmission.

* * * * * * * * * *
and even if it does apply to shorter circuits.
Your transmission line starts at that big power company transformer down the street and ends at your hi-fi component.
I don't think that the power company is interested in replacing all that cable.
And Oh, each of your components has a different input impedance and a power amps impedance changes with how much power it's delivering.

Stay away from YT videos.

But why? They’re so much fun!

Thanks for the additional info.

Originally Posted by Speedskater

And wait, there's more!
They used the wrong formula for determining the 'Radio Frequency Characteristic Impedance' of the AC cord.
They used the short form formula, which is only good at above about a half Megahertz.
If the used the correct (long form) formula, they might find that the cord's 60 Hz impedance might be near 1000 Ohms.

Thanks for sharing the facts about the nonsense that was posted about power cords matching the impedance of the electronics they are attached to.

Good rebuttal 'Speedy' and while I doubt Stephen was trying to lead us astray it does point out the fact that there is a ton of BS on YouTube. !

Originally Posted by Mikado463

Good rebuttal 'Speedy' and while I doubt Stephen was trying to lead us astray it does point out the fact that there is a ton of BS on YouTube. !

I found it interesting and mentioned it here because it points out a key principle that I’d point out when teaching DFSS to my fellow scientists and engineers: to be mindful of the nature of interactions of various factors for scientific and engineering applications, that many times it is not one factor or another that are key in mediating a functional response, but the interaction of those factors. A classic one in chemistry is the Time*Temperature interaction.

Any calculations for why silver cords sound different from copper

Originally Posted by a.wayne

Any calculations for why silver cords sound different from copper

Most likely because of this…

Copper atoms have 29 electrons and the shell structure is 2.8.18.1.



vs. this: Silver atoms have 47 electrons and the shell structure is 2.8.18.18.1.

Originally Posted by Speedskater

Oh dear, oh dear.
not again!

It's a series circuit from that big power company transformer down the street to your amplifier.
Replacing 1 percent of it won't change anything.

If you hear a different, there was some overlooked uncontrolled variable in your test.

Have a nice day! Cheers.

Speedskater 2, Puma Cat 0

Originally Posted by a.wayne

Any calculations for why silver cords sound different from copper

No. But unlike copper, they can be smelted into silver bullets, to fight off the vampires of the audio industry.

What a load of unscientific bollocks!

If the transformer in the amp or DAC needs 240 /110 volts at 50/60 cycles per second and the power cord supplies just what it wants, it'll be very happy, thank you.

There's a small chance that RFI may be introduced between the wall socket and the amp - the last few feet of the power supply - so there is a weak case in some dirty (electrically) homes to shield the power cables. If this happens to be a concern then a belt and braces answer is to use Belden 19364. Another good reason for using this excellent cable is that you can make each cable exactly the length you need. This inexpensive cable is absolutely all the transformer needs, even in dirty homes, and any more money spent on power cables is better spent on just about anything else! Buy your wife a lovely bunch of flowers or take your girlfriend for a nice meal out - either much better value for money!

Well all that blah blah blah can be sent off with one compare , sighted or unsighted , PC do make a difference , the why can be sourced or rubbished , fact is they do make a difference ..!

The lofty prices is another debate entirely...


Regards

Originally Posted by Speedskater

Oh dear, oh dear.
not again!

It's a series circuit from that big power company transformer down the street to your amplifier.
Replacing 1 percent of it won't change anything.

If you hear a different, there was some overlooked uncontrolled variable in your test.

There’s a reason why the last 3 ft or so makes a difference from wall outlet to amp socket.. nothing is in isolation ..


Regards

Originally Posted by a.wayne

There’s a reason why the last 3 ft or so makes a difference from wall outlet to amp socket.. nothing is in isolation ..


Regards

Give us a clue - please! Unless it's something I covered in my last message. And please allow the Laws of Physics to have a say!

Originally Posted by a.wayne

Well all that blah blah blah can be sent off with one compare , sighted or unsighted , PC do make a difference , the why can be sourced or rubbished , fact is they do make a difference ..!

The lofty prices is another debate entirely...


Regards

translation / interpretation ............they can be 'made' to make a difference and any properly constructed PC need not cost an arm and a leg !

Originally Posted by Hear Here

Give us a clue - please! Unless it's something I covered in my last message. And please allow the Laws of Physics to have a say!

Read this: WHY POWER CABLES MAKE A DIFFERENCE | Galen Carol Audio | Galen Carol Audio

and...

Originally Posted by a.wayne

Well all that blah blah blah can be sent off with one compare , sighted or unsighted , PC do make a difference , the why can be sourced or rubbished , fact is they do make a difference ..!

They do indeed. How 'bout some..data?

Watch this...
Shunyata Research noise-reducing power cord demonstration - YouTube

and this...
V14D Demo Part 2 - YouTube

Have a nice day and a great weekend, gents.

Originally Posted by Puma Cat

Read this: WHY POWER CABLES MAKE A DIFFERENCE | Galen Carol Audio | Galen Carol Audio

After reading that, how 'bout some..data?
Shunyata Research noise-reducing power cord demonstration - YouTube

and this...
V14D Demo Part 2 - YouTube

Have a nice day and a great weekend.

Sorry but an article written by a particular high cost "audiophile" supplier is hardly likely to be unbiased or even accurate. The sentence that reads: "The first question is – do power cords make any difference at all? There is no sense in talking about theories of operation if we can't agree that there is an audible effect." says enough for me to read no further. We can't agree there's an audible difference (supported by the Laws of Physics), so sorry, it's still a load of bollocks!

Originally Posted by Hear Here

Sorry but an article written by a particular high cost "audiophile" supplier is hardly likely to be unbiased or even accurate. The sentence that reads: "The first question is – do power cords make any difference at all? There is no sense in talking about theories of operation if we can't agree that there is an audible effect." says enough for me to read no further. We can't agree there's an audible difference (supported by the Laws of Physics), so sorry, it's still a load of bollocks!

Did you watch the videos?

Originally Posted by Puma Cat

Did you watch the videos?

Yes - totally unconvincing as all it did was show the reading on an irrelevant meter

The article only until I realised that it was written by vested interests.

I'd love that simply changing power cables would make some magical improvement to the sound I hear from my system, but I'm afraid I don't believe in magic and Physics cannot support the snake salesman's patter.

Or have I missed something other than what I said in my first post (#14) in this thread ? As I said, I have upgraded from standard supplied cables to ones using Belden 19364 for the reasons I stated. Can you offer any justification for spending more on the cables that carry the voltage between the wall socket and the primary winding of the transformer (or equivalent electronic device)? If so, changing the cables would be a cheap and worthwhile upgrade if it genuinely could improve upon the 240 volts that my kit is currently happy with.

Originally Posted by Hear Here

Yes - totally unconvincing as all it did was show the reading on an irrelevant meter

The meter is quite relevant, I also have one. The Shunyata Alpha NR that I have appears to shunt from hot to neutral with 583nF capacitance, and the Venom NR (in the video, which I also have) the same plus hot to ground with 1nF capacitance. Without opening up the cords' receptacles (where the circuits are located) it's hard to tell if they are employing a simple (and well known) delta capacitance configuration or something else (e.g. star?).

This capacitive shunting for noise reduction is pretty common inside electronics, whereby you will see signal ground shunted to chassis ground with a simple capacitor, which is then routed to earth ground. You will find similar configurations on some Neutrik XLR connectors, where they use a tiny capacitor to couple pin 1 (ground) to the metal. For example, see Just a moment... "Integrated Capacitor for RF Shielding" and "Circular capacitor around the cable shield enables low-inductive shield connection to connector housing"

Here, they appear to apply it on the power line, hence the lower reading on that meter. And this coupling between hot and neutral and/or ground is the reason why just simply plugging in that Shunyata cord lowers the noise reading on the meter.

Whether you believe in power cords or not is personal, but let it be known there is real science practiced by SOME companies.

-ack

> Here, they appear to apply it on the power line, hence the lower reading on that meter.

But why even measure it if it makes no difference to the sound? My speakers are 107 dB so any noise should be easily heard - my music is dead silent as far as noise is concerned. If the transformer needed anything other than 240 volts (+/- about 10%) at 50 cps and my wall socket couldn't supply that, then perhaps a fancy cable may magically fix things so the transformer is even happier. However all is perfectly well with cheap Belden cable and I would never look at anything fancier unless there was a molecule of evidence (supported by the laws of physics) to suggest that spending more on a power cable makes a scrap of difference.

Originally Posted by Speedskater

Read this: WHY POWER CABLES MAKE A DIFFERENCE | Galen Carol Audio | Galen Carol Audio
Oh dear, oh dear.

Watch this...
Shunyata Research noise-reducing power cord demonstration - YouTube
Oh dear, oh dear.

and this...
V14D Demo Part 2 - YouTube
Oh dear, oh dear.

Have a nice day!

So....how 'bout them Niners?

Blah, blah, where's your physics, looks like you are jumping on the bandwagon and clanging.

PC's make an audible difference. It's noticeable and repeatable. I don't have to be able to explain how anything works as long as it does. I don't design it, I just use it. No one who is ragging on cords has ever admitted doing any listening/comparing. Boneheads who have some ax to grind.

We get it you don't believe PC make a difference, you aren't going to try, so now go away.

Originally Posted by Hear Here

> Here, they appear to apply it on the power line, hence the lower reading on that meter.

Buy why even measure it if it makes no difference to the sound? My speakers are 107 dB so any noise should be easily heard - my music is dead silent as far as noise is concerned. If the transformer needed anything other than 240 volts (+/- about 10%) at 50 cps and my wall socket couldn't supply that, then perhaps a fancy cable may magically fix things so the transformer is even happier. However all is perfectly well with cheap Belden cable and I would never look at anything fancier unless there was a molecule of evidence (supported by the laws of physics) to suggest that spending more on a power cable makes a scrap of difference.

Originally Posted by Puma Cat

So....how 'bout them Niners?

If they play like they did against the Lions don't expect that kind of comeback against KC !

is Purdy a Mahomes ? no, not yet ..........

Originally Posted by Hear Here

> Here, they appear to apply it on the power line, hence the lower reading on that meter.

But why even measure it if it makes no difference to the sound? My speakers are 107 dB so any noise should be easily heard - my music is dead silent as far as noise is concerned. If the transformer needed anything other than 240 volts (+/- about 10%) at 50 cps and my wall socket couldn't supply that, then perhaps a fancy cable may magically fix things so the transformer is even happier. However all is perfectly well with cheap Belden cable and I would never look at anything fancier unless there was a molecule of evidence (supported by the laws of physics) to suggest that spending more on a power cable makes a scrap of difference.

Regarding "My speakers are 107 dB so any noise should be easily heard" - this is a common mistake in thinking what electronic noise is. It is not buzz, hash, hiss; electronic noise is *part of the signal* and rides with it. The effect is all kinds of sonic distortion, that you only realize is there when you remove the noise - examples would include timbral inaccuracies, grunge, compression, hard treble, et al

The Entech meter we are talking about measures noise in the power line in the AM range, and modulates it down to the human audible range so you can hear it easily, and indeed, I am hearing all kinds of conversations riding on my power lines in my own house. When you then attenuate that noise (however you do it), you obviously hear much much less of that AM noise via that device... and there are many other devices like that, which operate on different frequency ranges.

Thus, the AM or other high frequency noise *riding* on our lines ends up making it into the power transformers and the equipment power supplies, and eventually into the amplified musical signals we call music, and distorts the waveform to various degrees. The good news is that there are competent power cords that help the situation, and the bad news is there are many that don't or make it worse. Ditto for power conditioners.

So when you ask "But why even measure it if it makes no difference to the sound?" - we measure it exactly because it makes a difference, in terms of feeding our power supplies cleaner power, which ends up in cleaner internal voltage rails inside our components, which ends up in cleaner and less distorted sound. And again, you don't know it until the noise is removed. It would be incorrect for anyone to think that our equipment is impervious to power line noise, and/or that our power supplies remove all of it; I wish it worked like that...

Hope that makes sense

-ack

Originally Posted by Spock

i´ll be worry why so many claim that these differences exist

Beyond audiophile comprehension...but I'll post again anyway Just a moment...
Stop fretting about the why crutches...and just enjoy what you hear, like everyone else.

cheers

Originally Posted by Speedskater

San Fransisco 49'ers?
The local team beat them 19 to 17.

Hockey match ..?

BTW Anyone listening to class D amps are automatically disqualified from hearing differences in PC ..

Originally Posted by ack

Regarding "[I]
The Entech meter we are talking about measures noise in the power line in the AM range, and modulates it down to the human audible range so you can hear it easily, and indeed, I am hearing all kinds of conversations riding on my power lines in my own house. When you then attenuate that noise (however you do it), you obviously hear much much less of that AM noise via that device... and there are many other devices like that, which operate on different frequency ranges.


Hope that makes sense

-ack

Thanks, but sadly it doesn't make sense - at least not to me, a questioning "noise" cynic, who is eager to learn more about it!

First question is where does this "noise" come from? How it it generated and by what?

Second and most importantly, where in one's power supply does this noise enter? Is it at the power station a hundred miles away, or in the high voltage cable connecting the generator to you local sub-station, maybe 5 miles away, or from the low voltage cable from the sub-station to your fuse box, or between the fuse box and the wall socket behind your equipment rack, or the last few feet of the supply between the wall socket and the back of the amp or DAC?

If by some magical and fortunate coincidence it enters this long power supply chain after the wall socket (a totally incredibly situation), then perhaps a fancy last few feet of cable may help. Otherwise there's zero point in changing these last few feet unless you persuade your power supplier to upgrade the hundred miles or so from the power station, or wherever the "noise" enters the power supply chain.

Let's start by getting those basic and seemingly straight-forward questions answered in a convincing way before we take the next step in examining in a scientific way the question of this mysterious "noise" and how to get rid of it - if in fact it exists and needs to be got rid of.

Not trying to be difficult but simply asking the first questions such that I may understand your (and others) claims about the benefit of spending hundreds on a few feet of cable that is no part of the musical signal, but simply a voltage that allows the transistors, valves, etc to do their simple job of amplifying the incoming signal, or converting the digital stream to an analogue signal.

Thanks

Originally Posted by Spock

We know that the way we capture reality may not be the true reality.

Great.
The End.

Originally Posted by Hear Here

Thanks, but sadly it doesn't make sense - at least not to me, a questioning "noise" cynic, who is eager to learn more about it!

First question is where does this "noise" come from? How it it generated and by what?

Second and most importantly, where in one's power supply does this noise enter? Is it at the power station a hundred miles away, or in the high voltage cable connecting the generator to you local sub-station, maybe 5 miles away, or from the low voltage cable from the sub-station to your fuse box, or between the fuse box and the wall socket behind your equipment rack, or the last few feet of the supply between the wall socket and the back of the amp or DAC?

If by some magical and fortunate coincidence it enters this long power supply chain after the wall socket (a totally incredibly situation), then perhaps a fancy last few feet of cable may help. Otherwise there's zero point in changing these last few feet unless you persuade your power supplier to upgrade the hundred miles or so from the power station, or wherever the "noise" enters the power supply chain.

Let's start by getting those basic and seemingly straight-forward questions answered in a convincing way before we take the next step in examining in a scientific way the question of this mysterious "noise" and how to get rid of it - if in fact it exists and needs to be got rid of.

Not trying to be difficult but simply asking the first questions such that I may understand your (and others) claims about the benefit of spending hundreds on a few feet of cable that is no part of the musical signal, but simply a voltage that allows the transistors, valves, etc to do their simple job of amplifying the incoming signal, or converting the digital stream to an analogue signal.

Thanks

I am glad you are asking these questions, which by no fault of yours show a fundamental lack of understanding of noise, and that is common:

1) "First question is where does this "noise" come from? How it it generated and by what?"

Electronic noise is literally everywhere: it comes from the AM, FM airwaves; our WiFi routers; our own electronics of any kind that feed back noise into the same power lines, etc. If you were to look at a spectrum analyzer (never mind the basic Entech device and its ilk), you would see a power line littered with HF and UHF noise. Some of it is picked up because wires feeding our homes act as antennas, others as I said are generated by own electronics (for example, diodes in the equipment power supplies are themselves switching devices that generate noise, and some of it makes back out into the power lines). Collectively, this is the noise riding in the power lines, and again, some of it is picked up by the power company's power lines acting as antennas, some of it is generated inside our own homes and our own equipment, some of it by our neighbors'

2) "Second and most importantly, where in one's power supply does this noise enter?" -

Beyond the antenna effect, electronic noise obviously enters our equipment at the start of the power supply inside our equipment, like a power transformer if we are talking about an analog power supply; similarly for switching power supplies. This is why power cords and conditioners go between the power lines and our equipment. Do not confuse "power supply" in our equipment with the power company's supply of power. Two distinct things. The Company supplies dirty power, and internally our equipment feature power supplies that convert AC from the lines into DC as best as possible, which in turn is then internally modulated to create sound. This internal modulation further includes switching devices like transistors, which inherently also generate noise which can then be fed back into the power line - there is no gain w/o pain. The better equipment the less internal noise it will generate and the less it will feed back.

Given all that, putting power cords and power conditioners between the Power Company's dirty power lines and the power supplies in our equipment CAN have an effect, sometimes positive (desired), others negative. The competent power treatment designs will help, the rest won't. Therefore, tread carefully as they say. Power cords and power conditioners are nothing more than filters between the power lines and the equipment power supplies, and consequently between our equipment as well. The Entech device, again, tells us (within its limited operating bandwidth) that there is at least AM noise riding on our power lines, and there is much more noise riding on them as well.

Noise is real and well-understood science and real physics, and in fact, it is a multi-faceted problem - there is nothing voodoo about it. And I will avoid talking about how quickly a power cord and conditioner can deliver current on demand to our equipment - another subject where Shunyata have shown with measurements they can probably outperform anyone else's offerings, especially those cheap cords that come packaged with our equipment.

Hope this helps

-ack

Originally Posted by Spock

As you wich. I just still don't understand why when some talk or want to talk about cables, quickly the deniers appear telling all of them that they are just being fools who don't realize that they are being deceived by their senses and they shouldn't trust their ears.

They are consumed with an inner anger they can't control.

Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute

They are consumed with an inner anger they can't control.

It's called...male rage.

Originally Posted by Spock

As you wich. I just still don't understand why when some talk or want to talk about cables, quickly the deniers appear telling all of them that they are just being fools who don't realize that they are being deceived by their senses

Prefaced by Beyond audiophile comprehension as ever Just a moment...
Never enough for believers to just enjoy their senses like everyone else, FUD requires crutches, wormhole looking graphs, etc.

Originally Posted by Spock

they shouldn't trust their ears.

We know they don't, since they avoid "trust their ears" aka controlled blind "trust your ears"/one sense tests like the plague.
Basic word meanings elude obviously.

cheers

Originally Posted by ack

I am glad you are asking these questions, which by no fault of yours show a fundamental lack of understanding of noise, and that is common:

1) "First question is where does this "noise" come from? How it it generated and by what?"

Electronic noise is literally everywhere: it comes from the AM, FM airwaves; our WiFi routers; our own electronics of any kind that feed back noise into the same power lines, etc. If you were to look at a spectrum analyzer (never mind the basic Entech device and its ilk), you would see a power line littered with HF and UHF noise. Some of it is picked up because wires feeding our homes act as antennas, others as I said are generated by own electronics (for example, diodes in the equipment power supplies are themselves switching devices that generate noise, and some of it makes back out into the power lines). Collectively, this is the noise riding in the power lines, and again, some of it is picked up by the power company's power lines acting as antennas, some of it is generated inside our own homes and our own equipment, some of it by our neighbors'

2) "Second and most importantly, where in one's power supply does this noise enter?" -

Beyond the antenna effect, electronic noise obviously enters our equipment at the start of the power supply inside our equipment, like a power transformer if we are talking about an analog power supply; similarly for switching power supplies. This is why power cords and conditioners go between the power lines and our equipment. Do not confuse "power supply" in our equipment with the power company's supply of power. Two distinct things. The Company supplies dirty power, and internally our equipment feature power supplies that convert AC from the lines into DC as best as possible, which in turn is then internally modulated to create sound. This internal modulation further includes switching devices like transistors, which inherently also generate noise which can then be fed back into the power line - there is no gain w/o pain. The better equipment the less internal noise it will generate and the less it will feed back.

Given all that, putting power cords and power conditioners between the Power Company's dirty power lines and the power supplies in our equipment CAN have an effect, sometimes positive (desired), others negative. The competent power treatment designs will help, the rest won't. Therefore, tread carefully as they say. Power cords and power conditioners are nothing more than filters between the power lines and the equipment power supplies, and consequently between our equipment as well. The Entech device, again, tells us (within its limited operating bandwidth) that there is at least AM noise riding on our power lines, and there is much more noise riding on them as well.

Noise is real and well-understood science and real physics, and in fact, it is a multi-faceted problem - there is nothing voodoo about it. And I will avoid talking about how quickly a power cord and conditioner can deliver current on demand to our equipment - another subject where Shunyata have shown with measurements they can probably outperform anyone else's offerings, especially those cheap cords that come packaged with our equipment.

Hope this helps

-ack

Thanks for your comprehensive reply, but you haven't addressed my second question - if the "noise" is generated along the entire cabling system from the generating station to the wall socket behind your rack (as you have described), how can a few feet of fancy cable that joins this socket to the back of the amp make a scrap of difference?

Simple question, but as yet unanswered. Thanks

Originally Posted by Hear Here

fancy cable that joins this socket to the back of the amp make a scrap of difference?

Methinks audiophiles like Mr Wayne plug them directly into their ears, otherwise they would have to measure at the transducer terminals, or better yet, demonstrate they can hear transduced "noise" without peeking through wormholes.
Quite the dilemma

Originally Posted by Hear Here

Thanks for your comprehensive reply, but you haven't addressed my second question - if the "noise" is generated along the entire cabling system from the generating station to the wall socket behind your rack (as you have described), how can a few feet of fancy cable that joins this socket to the back of the amp make a scrap of difference?

Simple question, but as yet unanswered. Thanks

I think the question has been answered aplenty: first, you have the Entech readings with and without the noise reducing power cord; second, we explained how capacitive coupling between hot and neutral reduces high frequency noise right before it enters our equipment; third, as I said before "Power cords and power conditioners are nothing more than filters between the power lines and the equipment power supplies"

There is a fundamental difference between "fancy", as you put it, and "functional" as we are describing.

-ack

Originally Posted by ack

I think the question has been answered aplenty: first, you have the Entech readings with and without the noise reducing power cord; second, we explained how capacitive coupling between hot and neutral reduces high frequency noise right before it enters our equipment; third, as I said before "Power cords and power conditioners are nothing more than filters between the power lines and the equipment power supplies"

There is a fundamental difference between "fancy", as you put it, and "functional" as we are describing.

-ack

Sorry, but I give up. Without a meter that seems to measure what sounds to me to be a completely harmless (or perhaps a non-existent) effect, and one that my amplifier's power supply should be designed to cope with anyway, I'll stick with my existing simple but effective screened Belden cable. If it's good enough for pro studios, it's good enough for me. But thanks for your explanations anyway.

Originally Posted by ack

I think the question has been answered aplenty

-ack

Understanding is a choice. Some people choose to pretend they don't to support their agenda.

Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute

Understanding is a choice. Some people choose to pretend they don't to support their agenda.

BS, spoken like some audio fool. Understanding is based on comprehension !

Originally Posted by Puma Cat

It's called...male rage.

Yup. As we see time and time again with their posts. They never fail to entertain though they are a bit predicatble and easy to trigger.

Translation, you did answer the question, more than once, but wasted your time because nothing you say will convince me.

If you actually did compare your Belden to anything else of quality and heard no difference you should have stated that initially and end of discussion. But that was your out when faced with facts.

ACK adressed the area of a person may not hearing a difference or even making things worse. Power products, your gear and our homes are all different.

FWIW, when I first tried power products, at the time using nothing but stock, I wanted to try a multi outlet power conditioner. The sales guy wanted me to try a PC. I didn't want to but took it to appease him. The power conditioner I took back it made things some worse. I had a Krell amp at the time and I think the conditioner choked it. However, since I had the PC I tried it. The improvement was so good I purchased a PC for everything I had that had a detachable cord. As I recall my phono stage and CDP showed the most improvement but even the Krell amp showed better performance with the better cord.

Originally Posted by Hear Here

Sorry, but I give up. Without a meter that seems to measure what seems to be a completely harmless (or perhaps a non-existent) effect, that my amplifier's power supply should be designed to cope with anyway), and my ears not noticing any difference, I'll stick with my existing simple but effective screened Belden cable. If it's good enough for pro studios, it's good enough for me. But thanks for your explanations anyway.