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  1. #1
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    The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Just came across this video on YT today on the Smith Chart.

    When viewing this video, it immediately became clear why aftermarket power cords can provide such an improvement to our audio systems.

    Here's an example what happens when the impedance of the "transmission line" does not match the "load impedance". This mis-match causes a "reflected wave" on the circuit, which you don't want to have, as described in the video. Note how the red dot is "off-axis" to the center-line of the polar plot.



    Now, when you have the PC's impedance matching that of the "load", you get a much more ideal response, as shown by the red dot in the plot, meaning, no "reflected wave", which is exactly what you want.

    In our case, transmission line is the PC from the wall AC receptacle, and the "load" is the FWBR* power supplies inside our amplification components.



    And...this is key reason why well-designed aftermarket PCs can provide such an audible improvement in our audio systems: because they can help "match" the impedance of the "transmission line" with the "load".

    Don'tcha just love...SCIENCE?

    *–FWBR: Full-wave bridge rectifier
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  2. #2
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Oh dear, oh dear!
    HAM radio operators know that AC cords make poor radio antenna cords.

    The power company knows that the above chart applies to city-to-city AC power transmission.

    * * * * * * * * * *
    and even if it does apply to shorter circuits.
    Your transmission line starts at that big power company transformer down the street and ends at your hi-fi component.
    I don't think that the power company is interested in replacing all that cable.
    And Oh, each of your components has a different input impedance and a power amps impedance changes with how much power it's delivering.

    Stay away from YT videos.
    Last edited by Speedskater; February 2, 2024 at 09:02 AM. Reason: added content

  3. #3
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    And wait, there's more!
    They used the wrong formula for determining the 'Radio Frequency Characteristic Impedance' of the AC cord.
    They used the short form formula, which is only good at above about a half Megahertz.
    If the used the correct (long form) formula, they might find that the cord's 60 Hz impedance might be near 1000 Ohms.

  4. #4
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedskater View Post
    Oh dear, oh dear!
    HAM radio operators know that AC cords make poor radio antenna cords.

    The power company knows that the above chart applies to city-to-city AC power transmission.

    * * * * * * * * * *
    and even if it does apply to shorter circuits.
    Your transmission line starts at that big power company transformer down the street and ends at your hi-fi component.
    I don't think that the power company is interested in replacing all that cable.
    And Oh, each of your components has a different input impedance and a power amps impedance changes with how much power it's delivering.

    Stay away from YT videos.
    But why? They’re so much fun!

    Thanks for the additional info.
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  5. #5

    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedskater View Post
    And wait, there's more!
    They used the wrong formula for determining the 'Radio Frequency Characteristic Impedance' of the AC cord.
    They used the short form formula, which is only good at above about a half Megahertz.
    If the used the correct (long form) formula, they might find that the cord's 60 Hz impedance might be near 1000 Ohms.
    Thanks for sharing the facts about the nonsense that was posted about power cords matching the impedance of the electronics they are attached to.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

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  6. #6
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Good rebuttal 'Speedy' and while I doubt Stephen was trying to lead us astray it does point out the fact that there is a ton of BS on YouTube. !
    Cheers ! …. Dave

  7. #7
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikado463 View Post
    Good rebuttal 'Speedy' and while I doubt Stephen was trying to lead us astray it does point out the fact that there is a ton of BS on YouTube. !
    I found it interesting and mentioned it here because it points out a key principle that I’d point out when teaching DFSS to my fellow scientists and engineers: to be mindful of the nature of interactions of various factors for scientific and engineering applications, that many times it is not one factor or another that are key in mediating a functional response, but the interaction of those factors. A classic one in chemistry is the Time*Temperature interaction.
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  8. #8
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Any calculations for why silver cords sound different from copper
    * An Audiophile is only as old as his latest Class D incarnation *

  9. #9
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    Any calculations for why silver cords sound different from copper
    Most likely because of this…

    Copper atoms have 29 electrons and the shell structure is 2.8.18.1.



    vs. this: Silver atoms have 47 electrons and the shell structure is 2.8.18.18.1.
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  10. #10
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Oh dear, oh dear.
    not again!

    It's a series circuit from that big power company transformer down the street to your amplifier.
    Replacing 1 percent of it won't change anything.

    If you hear a different, there was some overlooked uncontrolled variable in your test.

  11. #11
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedskater View Post
    Oh dear, oh dear.
    not again!

    It's a series circuit from that big power company transformer down the street to your amplifier.
    Replacing 1 percent of it won't change anything.

    If you hear a different, there was some overlooked uncontrolled variable in your test.
    Have a nice day! Cheers.
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  12. #12

    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Speedskater 2, Puma Cat 0
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  13. #13
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    Any calculations for why silver cords sound different from copper
    No. But unlike copper, they can be smelted into silver bullets, to fight off the vampires of the audio industry.

  14. #14
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    What a load of unscientific bollocks!

    If the transformer in the amp or DAC needs 240 /110 volts at 50/60 cycles per second and the power cord supplies just what it wants, it'll be very happy, thank you.

    There's a small chance that RFI may be introduced between the wall socket and the amp - the last few feet of the power supply - so there is a weak case in some dirty (electrically) homes to shield the power cables. If this happens to be a concern then a belt and braces answer is to use Belden 19364. Another good reason for using this excellent cable is that you can make each cable exactly the length you need. This inexpensive cable is absolutely all the transformer needs, even in dirty homes, and any more money spent on power cables is better spent on just about anything else! Buy your wife a lovely bunch of flowers or take your girlfriend for a nice meal out - either much better value for money!
    Sources - NAD M50.2 (streamer, CD player, CD ripper, hard drive music store)
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Well all that blah blah blah can be sent off with one compare , sighted or unsighted , PC do make a difference , the why can be sourced or rubbished , fact is they do make a difference ..!

    The lofty prices is another debate entirely...


    Regards
    * An Audiophile is only as old as his latest Class D incarnation *

  16. #16
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedskater View Post
    Oh dear, oh dear.
    not again!

    It's a series circuit from that big power company transformer down the street to your amplifier.
    Replacing 1 percent of it won't change anything.

    If you hear a different, there was some overlooked uncontrolled variable in your test.
    There’s a reason why the last 3 ft or so makes a difference from wall outlet to amp socket.. nothing is in isolation ..


    Regards
    * An Audiophile is only as old as his latest Class D incarnation *

  17. #17
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    There’s a reason why the last 3 ft or so makes a difference from wall outlet to amp socket.. nothing is in isolation ..


    Regards
    Give us a clue - please! Unless it's something I covered in my last message. And please allow the Laws of Physics to have a say!
    Sources - NAD M50.2 (streamer, CD player, CD ripper, hard drive music store)
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  18. #18
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    Well all that blah blah blah can be sent off with one compare , sighted or unsighted , PC do make a difference , the why can be sourced or rubbished , fact is they do make a difference ..!

    The lofty prices is another debate entirely...


    Regards

    translation / interpretation ............they can be 'made' to make a difference and any properly constructed PC need not cost an arm and a leg !
    Cheers ! …. Dave

  19. #19
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Hear Here View Post
    Give us a clue - please! Unless it's something I covered in my last message. And please allow the Laws of Physics to have a say!
    Read this: WHY POWER CABLES MAKE A DIFFERENCE | Galen Carol Audio | Galen Carol Audio

    and...
    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    Well all that blah blah blah can be sent off with one compare , sighted or unsighted , PC do make a difference , the why can be sourced or rubbished , fact is they do make a difference ..!
    They do indeed. How 'bout some..data?

    Watch this...
    Shunyata Research noise-reducing power cord demonstration - YouTube

    and this...
    V14D Demo Part 2 - YouTube

    Have a nice day and a great weekend, gents.
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    Sorry but an article written by a particular high cost "audiophile" supplier is hardly likely to be unbiased or even accurate. The sentence that reads: "The first question is – do power cords make any difference at all? There is no sense in talking about theories of operation if we can't agree that there is an audible effect." says enough for me to read no further. We can't agree there's an audible difference (supported by the Laws of Physics), so sorry, it's still a load of bollocks!
    Sources - NAD M50.2 (streamer, CD player, CD ripper, hard drive music store)
    Amplification - NAD M33 all-in-one, NAD M12 preamp (in reserve), Atma-Sphere Class D monos
    Speakers - Avantgarde Duo XD, Avantgarde Duo (2006) - both aesthetically modified

  21. #21
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Hear Here View Post
    Sorry but an article written by a particular high cost "audiophile" supplier is hardly likely to be unbiased or even accurate. The sentence that reads: "The first question is – do power cords make any difference at all? There is no sense in talking about theories of operation if we can't agree that there is an audible effect." says enough for me to read no further. We can't agree there's an audible difference (supported by the Laws of Physics), so sorry, it's still a load of bollocks!
    Did you watch the videos?
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    Did you watch the videos?
    Yes - totally unconvincing as all it did was show the reading on an irrelevant meter

    The article only until I realised that it was written by vested interests.

    I'd love that simply changing power cables would make some magical improvement to the sound I hear from my system, but I'm afraid I don't believe in magic and Physics cannot support the snake salesman's patter.

    Or have I missed something other than what I said in my first post (#14) in this thread ? As I said, I have upgraded from standard supplied cables to ones using Belden 19364 for the reasons I stated. Can you offer any justification for spending more on the cables that carry the voltage between the wall socket and the primary winding of the transformer (or equivalent electronic device)? If so, changing the cables would be a cheap and worthwhile upgrade if it genuinely could improve upon the 240 volts that my kit is currently happy with.
    Sources - NAD M50.2 (streamer, CD player, CD ripper, hard drive music store)
    Amplification - NAD M33 all-in-one, NAD M12 preamp (in reserve), Atma-Sphere Class D monos
    Speakers - Avantgarde Duo XD, Avantgarde Duo (2006) - both aesthetically modified

  23. #23

    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Hear Here View Post
    Yes - totally unconvincing as all it did was show the reading on an irrelevant meter
    The meter is quite relevant, I also have one. The Shunyata Alpha NR that I have appears to shunt from hot to neutral with 583nF capacitance, and the Venom NR (in the video, which I also have) the same plus hot to ground with 1nF capacitance. Without opening up the cords' receptacles (where the circuits are located) it's hard to tell if they are employing a simple (and well known) delta capacitance configuration or something else (e.g. star?).

    This capacitive shunting for noise reduction is pretty common inside electronics, whereby you will see signal ground shunted to chassis ground with a simple capacitor, which is then routed to earth ground. You will find similar configurations on some Neutrik XLR connectors, where they use a tiny capacitor to couple pin 1 (ground) to the metal. For example, see Just a moment... "Integrated Capacitor for RF Shielding" and "Circular capacitor around the cable shield enables low-inductive shield connection to connector housing"

    Here, they appear to apply it on the power line, hence the lower reading on that meter. And this coupling between hot and neutral and/or ground is the reason why just simply plugging in that Shunyata cord lowers the noise reading on the meter.

    Whether you believe in power cords or not is personal, but let it be known there is real science practiced by SOME companies.

    -ack
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  24. #24
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    > Here, they appear to apply it on the power line, hence the lower reading on that meter.

    But why even measure it if it makes no difference to the sound? My speakers are 107 dB so any noise should be easily heard - my music is dead silent as far as noise is concerned. If the transformer needed anything other than 240 volts (+/- about 10%) at 50 cps and my wall socket couldn't supply that, then perhaps a fancy cable may magically fix things so the transformer is even happier. However all is perfectly well with cheap Belden cable and I would never look at anything fancier unless there was a molecule of evidence (supported by the laws of physics) to suggest that spending more on a power cable makes a scrap of difference.
    Sources - NAD M50.2 (streamer, CD player, CD ripper, hard drive music store)
    Amplification - NAD M33 all-in-one, NAD M12 preamp (in reserve), Atma-Sphere Class D monos
    Speakers - Avantgarde Duo XD, Avantgarde Duo (2006) - both aesthetically modified

  25. #25
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Read this: WHY POWER CABLES MAKE A DIFFERENCE | Galen Carol Audio | Galen Carol Audio
    Oh dear, oh dear.

    Watch this...
    Shunyata Research noise-reducing power cord demonstration - YouTube

    Oh dear, oh dear.

    and this...
    V14D Demo Part 2 - YouTube

    Oh dear, oh dear.

  26. #26
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedskater View Post
    Read this: WHY POWER CABLES MAKE A DIFFERENCE | Galen Carol Audio | Galen Carol Audio
    Oh dear, oh dear.

    Watch this...
    Shunyata Research noise-reducing power cord demonstration - YouTube

    Oh dear, oh dear.

    and this...
    V14D Demo Part 2 - YouTube

    Oh dear, oh dear.
    Have a nice day!

    So....how 'bout them Niners?
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  27. #27
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Blah, blah, where's your physics, looks like you are jumping on the bandwagon and clanging.

    PC's make an audible difference. It's noticeable and repeatable. I don't have to be able to explain how anything works as long as it does. I don't design it, I just use it. No one who is ragging on cords has ever admitted doing any listening/comparing. Boneheads who have some ax to grind.

    We get it you don't believe PC make a difference, you aren't going to try, so now go away.



    Quote Originally Posted by Hear Here View Post
    > Here, they appear to apply it on the power line, hence the lower reading on that meter.

    Buy why even measure it if it makes no difference to the sound? My speakers are 107 dB so any noise should be easily heard - my music is dead silent as far as noise is concerned. If the transformer needed anything other than 240 volts (+/- about 10%) at 50 cps and my wall socket couldn't supply that, then perhaps a fancy cable may magically fix things so the transformer is even happier. However all is perfectly well with cheap Belden cable and I would never look at anything fancier unless there was a molecule of evidence (supported by the laws of physics) to suggest that spending more on a power cable makes a scrap of difference.
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  28. #28
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post

    So....how 'bout them Niners?
    If they play like they did against the Lions don't expect that kind of comeback against KC !

    is Purdy a Mahomes ? no, not yet ..........
    Cheers ! …. Dave

  29. #29
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    San Fransisco 49'ers?
    The local team beat them 19 to 17.

  30. #30

    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Hear Here View Post
    > Here, they appear to apply it on the power line, hence the lower reading on that meter.

    But why even measure it if it makes no difference to the sound? My speakers are 107 dB so any noise should be easily heard - my music is dead silent as far as noise is concerned. If the transformer needed anything other than 240 volts (+/- about 10%) at 50 cps and my wall socket couldn't supply that, then perhaps a fancy cable may magically fix things so the transformer is even happier. However all is perfectly well with cheap Belden cable and I would never look at anything fancier unless there was a molecule of evidence (supported by the laws of physics) to suggest that spending more on a power cable makes a scrap of difference.
    Regarding "My speakers are 107 dB so any noise should be easily heard" - this is a common mistake in thinking what electronic noise is. It is not buzz, hash, hiss; electronic noise is *part of the signal* and rides with it. The effect is all kinds of sonic distortion, that you only realize is there when you remove the noise - examples would include timbral inaccuracies, grunge, compression, hard treble, et al

    The Entech meter we are talking about measures noise in the power line in the AM range, and modulates it down to the human audible range so you can hear it easily, and indeed, I am hearing all kinds of conversations riding on my power lines in my own house. When you then attenuate that noise (however you do it), you obviously hear much much less of that AM noise via that device... and there are many other devices like that, which operate on different frequency ranges.

    Thus, the AM or other high frequency noise *riding* on our lines ends up making it into the power transformers and the equipment power supplies, and eventually into the amplified musical signals we call music, and distorts the waveform to various degrees. The good news is that there are competent power cords that help the situation, and the bad news is there are many that don't or make it worse. Ditto for power conditioners.

    So when you ask "But why even measure it if it makes no difference to the sound?" - we measure it exactly because it makes a difference, in terms of feeding our power supplies cleaner power, which ends up in cleaner internal voltage rails inside our components, which ends up in cleaner and less distorted sound. And again, you don't know it until the noise is removed. It would be incorrect for anyone to think that our equipment is impervious to power line noise, and/or that our power supplies remove all of it; I wish it worked like that...

    Hope that makes sense

    -ack
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    - Spectral DMC-30SV, Spectral DMA-500AR
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    - MIT MA-X phono,90.1 speaker - shielded; Shunyata Everest, Alpha v2 NR, Sigma XC, Alpha v3 CGC
    - Isodamp, mumetal, 3M AB5100, Carbon Fiber sheets, Dynamat, Copper foil; Vishay diodes, resistors; Mundorf crossover coils & capacitors; custom electrostatic step-up transformers

  31. #31

    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    There’s a reason why the last 3 ft or so makes a difference from wall outlet to amp socket..
    They are not de last, they are the first...
    And half a meter is enough to make difference!

    Quote Originally Posted by ack View Post
    Regarding "My speakers are 107 dB so any noise should be easily heard" - this is a common mistake in thinking what electronic noise is. It is not buzz, hash, hiss; electronic noise is *part of the signal* and rides with it. The effect is all kinds of sonic distortion, that you only realize is there when you remove the noise - examples would include timbral inaccuracies, grunge, compression, hard treble, et al

    Exactly! And a good way to test all of this is by turning the volume. Increasing the signal increases the garbage in the signal and the sound becomes unbearable.

    The Entech meter we are talking about measures noise in the power line in the AM range, and modulates it down to the human audible range so you can hear it easily, and indeed, I am hearing all kinds of conversations riding on my power lines in my own house. When you then attenuate that noise (however you do it), you obviously hear much much less of that AM noise via that device... and there are many other devices like that, which operate on different frequency ranges.

    Thus, the AM or other high frequency noise *riding* on our lines ends up making it into the power transformers and the equipment power supplies, and eventually into the amplified musical signals we call music, and distorts the waveform to various degrees. The good news is that there are competent power cords that help the situation, and the bad news is there are many that don't or make it worse. Ditto for power conditioners.

    So when you ask "But why even measure it if it makes no difference to the sound?" - we measure it exactly because it makes a difference, in terms of feeding our power supplies cleaner power, which ends up in cleaner internal voltage rails inside our components, which ends up in cleaner and less distorted sound. And again, you don't know it until the noise is removed. It would be incorrect for anyone to think that our equipment is impervious to power line noise, and/or that our power supplies remove all of it; I wish it worked like that...

    Hope that makes sense

    It makes total sense. Thank you. It is exactly like you said. And if i were an audiophile, and had spent a lot of money in a audio system and didn´t notice any difference, i´ll be worry why so many claim that these differences exist...

  32. #32
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Spock View Post
    i´ll be worry why so many claim that these differences exist
    Beyond audiophile comprehension...but I'll post again anyway Just a moment...
    Stop fretting about the why crutches...and just enjoy what you hear, like everyone else.

    cheers

  33. #33

    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    There are thousands of audiophiles around the world who testify that differences exist. What is the statistical probability that they are all wrong?


    About the funny link you post.
    We know that the way we capture reality may not be the true reality.
    The example of colors. We see different colors. But what there is is light, it is an electromagnetic wave that we interpret as color. In this sense we can say that colors do not exist. But there is something different at the origin that our brain decodes as color: the length of the wave that reaches us! In other words, at the origin there is something different, which can then even give rise to different interpretations. In the example of color we have color blind people. Could audiophiles who don't notice differences be "sound colorblind"?

  34. #34
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedskater View Post
    San Fransisco 49'ers?
    The local team beat them 19 to 17.
    Hockey match ..?

    BTW Anyone listening to class D amps are automatically disqualified from hearing differences in PC ..


    * An Audiophile is only as old as his latest Class D incarnation *

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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by ack View Post
    Regarding "[I]
    The Entech meter we are talking about measures noise in the power line in the AM range, and modulates it down to the human audible range so you can hear it easily, and indeed, I am hearing all kinds of conversations riding on my power lines in my own house. When you then attenuate that noise (however you do it), you obviously hear much much less of that AM noise via that device... and there are many other devices like that, which operate on different frequency ranges.


    Hope that makes sense

    -ack
    Thanks, but sadly it doesn't make sense - at least not to me, a questioning "noise" cynic, who is eager to learn more about it!

    First question is where does this "noise" come from? How it it generated and by what?

    Second and most importantly, where in one's power supply does this noise enter? Is it at the power station a hundred miles away, or in the high voltage cable connecting the generator to you local sub-station, maybe 5 miles away, or from the low voltage cable from the sub-station to your fuse box, or between the fuse box and the wall socket behind your equipment rack, or the last few feet of the supply between the wall socket and the back of the amp or DAC?

    If by some magical and fortunate coincidence it enters this long power supply chain after the wall socket (a totally incredibly situation), then perhaps a fancy last few feet of cable may help. Otherwise there's zero point in changing these last few feet unless you persuade your power supplier to upgrade the hundred miles or so from the power station, or wherever the "noise" enters the power supply chain.

    Let's start by getting those basic and seemingly straight-forward questions answered in a convincing way before we take the next step in examining in a scientific way the question of this mysterious "noise" and how to get rid of it - if in fact it exists and needs to be got rid of.

    Not trying to be difficult but simply asking the first questions such that I may understand your (and others) claims about the benefit of spending hundreds on a few feet of cable that is no part of the musical signal, but simply a voltage that allows the transistors, valves, etc to do their simple job of amplifying the incoming signal, or converting the digital stream to an analogue signal.

    Thanks
    Sources - NAD M50.2 (streamer, CD player, CD ripper, hard drive music store)
    Amplification - NAD M33 all-in-one, NAD M12 preamp (in reserve), Atma-Sphere Class D monos
    Speakers - Avantgarde Duo XD, Avantgarde Duo (2006) - both aesthetically modified

  36. #36
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Spock View Post
    We know that the way we capture reality may not be the true reality.
    Great.
    The End.

  37. #37

    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Hear Here View Post
    Thanks, but sadly it doesn't make sense - at least not to me, a questioning "noise" cynic, who is eager to learn more about it!

    First question is where does this "noise" come from? How it it generated and by what?

    Second and most importantly, where in one's power supply does this noise enter? Is it at the power station a hundred miles away, or in the high voltage cable connecting the generator to you local sub-station, maybe 5 miles away, or from the low voltage cable from the sub-station to your fuse box, or between the fuse box and the wall socket behind your equipment rack, or the last few feet of the supply between the wall socket and the back of the amp or DAC?

    If by some magical and fortunate coincidence it enters this long power supply chain after the wall socket (a totally incredibly situation), then perhaps a fancy last few feet of cable may help. Otherwise there's zero point in changing these last few feet unless you persuade your power supplier to upgrade the hundred miles or so from the power station, or wherever the "noise" enters the power supply chain.

    Let's start by getting those basic and seemingly straight-forward questions answered in a convincing way before we take the next step in examining in a scientific way the question of this mysterious "noise" and how to get rid of it - if in fact it exists and needs to be got rid of.

    Not trying to be difficult but simply asking the first questions such that I may understand your (and others) claims about the benefit of spending hundreds on a few feet of cable that is no part of the musical signal, but simply a voltage that allows the transistors, valves, etc to do their simple job of amplifying the incoming signal, or converting the digital stream to an analogue signal.

    Thanks
    I am glad you are asking these questions, which by no fault of yours show a fundamental lack of understanding of noise, and that is common:

    1) "First question is where does this "noise" come from? How it it generated and by what?"

    Electronic noise is literally everywhere: it comes from the AM, FM airwaves; our WiFi routers; our own electronics of any kind that feed back noise into the same power lines, etc. If you were to look at a spectrum analyzer (never mind the basic Entech device and its ilk), you would see a power line littered with HF and UHF noise. Some of it is picked up because wires feeding our homes act as antennas, others as I said are generated by own electronics (for example, diodes in the equipment power supplies are themselves switching devices that generate noise, and some of it makes back out into the power lines). Collectively, this is the noise riding in the power lines, and again, some of it is picked up by the power company's power lines acting as antennas, some of it is generated inside our own homes and our own equipment, some of it by our neighbors'

    2) "Second and most importantly, where in one's power supply does this noise enter?" -

    Beyond the antenna effect, electronic noise obviously enters our equipment at the start of the power supply inside our equipment, like a power transformer if we are talking about an analog power supply; similarly for switching power supplies. This is why power cords and conditioners go between the power lines and our equipment. Do not confuse "power supply" in our equipment with the power company's supply of power. Two distinct things. The Company supplies dirty power, and internally our equipment feature power supplies that convert AC from the lines into DC as best as possible, which in turn is then internally modulated to create sound. This internal modulation further includes switching devices like transistors, which inherently also generate noise which can then be fed back into the power line - there is no gain w/o pain. The better equipment the less internal noise it will generate and the less it will feed back.

    Given all that, putting power cords and power conditioners between the Power Company's dirty power lines and the power supplies in our equipment CAN have an effect, sometimes positive (desired), others negative. The competent power treatment designs will help, the rest won't. Therefore, tread carefully as they say. Power cords and power conditioners are nothing more than filters between the power lines and the equipment power supplies, and consequently between our equipment as well. The Entech device, again, tells us (within its limited operating bandwidth) that there is at least AM noise riding on our power lines, and there is much more noise riding on them as well.

    Noise is real and well-understood science and real physics, and in fact, it is a multi-faceted problem - there is nothing voodoo about it. And I will avoid talking about how quickly a power cord and conditioner can deliver current on demand to our equipment - another subject where Shunyata have shown with measurements they can probably outperform anyone else's offerings, especially those cheap cords that come packaged with our equipment.

    Hope this helps

    -ack
    - VPI Aries 3, custom suspension & platter interface; VPI JMW 10.5i - magnetically stabilized; Ortofon Verismo; VPI SDS speed controller​. Pass XP-25 - modded & fully shielded + Tubulus umbilical
    - Magnum Dynalab MD-90SE/105
    - Spectral 4000SV
    - Spectral DMC-30SV, Spectral DMA-500AR
    - Custom MartinLogan hybrids, REL Stadium III sub - modded
    - MIT MA-X phono,90.1 speaker - shielded; Shunyata Everest, Alpha v2 NR, Sigma XC, Alpha v3 CGC
    - Isodamp, mumetal, 3M AB5100, Carbon Fiber sheets, Dynamat, Copper foil; Vishay diodes, resistors; Mundorf crossover coils & capacitors; custom electrostatic step-up transformers

  38. #38

    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    Great.
    The End.
    As you wich. I just still don't understand why when some talk or want to talk about cables, quickly the deniers appear telling all of them that they are just being fools who don't realize that they are being deceived by their senses and they shouldn't trust their ears.

  39. #39

    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post

    BTW Anyone listening to class D amps are automatically disqualified from hearing differences in PC ..

    Thank God mine is semidigital
    Attached Images Attached Images

  40. #40
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Spock View Post
    As you wich. I just still don't understand why when some talk or want to talk about cables, quickly the deniers appear telling all of them that they are just being fools who don't realize that they are being deceived by their senses and they shouldn't trust their ears.
    They are consumed with an inner anger they can't control.
    "We are all billionaires because of the huge piles sweet dough rolling in from our participation in the ongoing campaign to suck your collective brains through a stirrer-straw." - PTA Editorial Staff

  41. #41
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    They are consumed with an inner anger they can't control.
    It's called...male rage.
    Ĥѱ = 𝐸ѱ

  42. #42
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Spock View Post
    As you wich. I just still don't understand why when some talk or want to talk about cables, quickly the deniers appear telling all of them that they are just being fools who don't realize that they are being deceived by their senses
    Prefaced by Beyond audiophile comprehension as ever Just a moment...
    Never enough for believers to just enjoy their senses like everyone else, FUD requires crutches, wormhole looking graphs, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spock View Post
    they shouldn't trust their ears.
    We know they don't, since they avoid "trust their ears" aka controlled blind "trust your ears"/one sense tests like the plague.
    Basic word meanings elude obviously.

    cheers

  43. #43
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by ack View Post
    I am glad you are asking these questions, which by no fault of yours show a fundamental lack of understanding of noise, and that is common:

    1) "First question is where does this "noise" come from? How it it generated and by what?"

    Electronic noise is literally everywhere: it comes from the AM, FM airwaves; our WiFi routers; our own electronics of any kind that feed back noise into the same power lines, etc. If you were to look at a spectrum analyzer (never mind the basic Entech device and its ilk), you would see a power line littered with HF and UHF noise. Some of it is picked up because wires feeding our homes act as antennas, others as I said are generated by own electronics (for example, diodes in the equipment power supplies are themselves switching devices that generate noise, and some of it makes back out into the power lines). Collectively, this is the noise riding in the power lines, and again, some of it is picked up by the power company's power lines acting as antennas, some of it is generated inside our own homes and our own equipment, some of it by our neighbors'

    2) "Second and most importantly, where in one's power supply does this noise enter?" -

    Beyond the antenna effect, electronic noise obviously enters our equipment at the start of the power supply inside our equipment, like a power transformer if we are talking about an analog power supply; similarly for switching power supplies. This is why power cords and conditioners go between the power lines and our equipment. Do not confuse "power supply" in our equipment with the power company's supply of power. Two distinct things. The Company supplies dirty power, and internally our equipment feature power supplies that convert AC from the lines into DC as best as possible, which in turn is then internally modulated to create sound. This internal modulation further includes switching devices like transistors, which inherently also generate noise which can then be fed back into the power line - there is no gain w/o pain. The better equipment the less internal noise it will generate and the less it will feed back.

    Given all that, putting power cords and power conditioners between the Power Company's dirty power lines and the power supplies in our equipment CAN have an effect, sometimes positive (desired), others negative. The competent power treatment designs will help, the rest won't. Therefore, tread carefully as they say. Power cords and power conditioners are nothing more than filters between the power lines and the equipment power supplies, and consequently between our equipment as well. The Entech device, again, tells us (within its limited operating bandwidth) that there is at least AM noise riding on our power lines, and there is much more noise riding on them as well.

    Noise is real and well-understood science and real physics, and in fact, it is a multi-faceted problem - there is nothing voodoo about it. And I will avoid talking about how quickly a power cord and conditioner can deliver current on demand to our equipment - another subject where Shunyata have shown with measurements they can probably outperform anyone else's offerings, especially those cheap cords that come packaged with our equipment.

    Hope this helps

    -ack
    Thanks for your comprehensive reply, but you haven't addressed my second question - if the "noise" is generated along the entire cabling system from the generating station to the wall socket behind your rack (as you have described), how can a few feet of fancy cable that joins this socket to the back of the amp make a scrap of difference?

    Simple question, but as yet unanswered. Thanks
    Sources - NAD M50.2 (streamer, CD player, CD ripper, hard drive music store)
    Amplification - NAD M33 all-in-one, NAD M12 preamp (in reserve), Atma-Sphere Class D monos
    Speakers - Avantgarde Duo XD, Avantgarde Duo (2006) - both aesthetically modified

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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Hear Here View Post
    fancy cable that joins this socket to the back of the amp make a scrap of difference?
    Methinks audiophiles like Mr Wayne plug them directly into their ears, otherwise they would have to measure at the transducer terminals, or better yet, demonstrate they can hear transduced "noise" without peeking through wormholes.
    Quite the dilemma

  45. #45

    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Hear Here View Post
    Thanks for your comprehensive reply, but you haven't addressed my second question - if the "noise" is generated along the entire cabling system from the generating station to the wall socket behind your rack (as you have described), how can a few feet of fancy cable that joins this socket to the back of the amp make a scrap of difference?

    Simple question, but as yet unanswered. Thanks
    I think the question has been answered aplenty: first, you have the Entech readings with and without the noise reducing power cord; second, we explained how capacitive coupling between hot and neutral reduces high frequency noise right before it enters our equipment; third, as I said before "Power cords and power conditioners are nothing more than filters between the power lines and the equipment power supplies"

    There is a fundamental difference between "fancy", as you put it, and "functional" as we are describing.

    -ack
    - VPI Aries 3, custom suspension & platter interface; VPI JMW 10.5i - magnetically stabilized; Ortofon Verismo; VPI SDS speed controller​. Pass XP-25 - modded & fully shielded + Tubulus umbilical
    - Magnum Dynalab MD-90SE/105
    - Spectral 4000SV
    - Spectral DMC-30SV, Spectral DMA-500AR
    - Custom MartinLogan hybrids, REL Stadium III sub - modded
    - MIT MA-X phono,90.1 speaker - shielded; Shunyata Everest, Alpha v2 NR, Sigma XC, Alpha v3 CGC
    - Isodamp, mumetal, 3M AB5100, Carbon Fiber sheets, Dynamat, Copper foil; Vishay diodes, resistors; Mundorf crossover coils & capacitors; custom electrostatic step-up transformers

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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by ack View Post
    I think the question has been answered aplenty: first, you have the Entech readings with and without the noise reducing power cord; second, we explained how capacitive coupling between hot and neutral reduces high frequency noise right before it enters our equipment; third, as I said before "Power cords and power conditioners are nothing more than filters between the power lines and the equipment power supplies"

    There is a fundamental difference between "fancy", as you put it, and "functional" as we are describing.

    -ack
    Sorry, but I give up. Without a meter that seems to measure what sounds to me to be a completely harmless (or perhaps a non-existent) effect, and one that my amplifier's power supply should be designed to cope with anyway, I'll stick with my existing simple but effective screened Belden cable. If it's good enough for pro studios, it's good enough for me. But thanks for your explanations anyway.
    Sources - NAD M50.2 (streamer, CD player, CD ripper, hard drive music store)
    Amplification - NAD M33 all-in-one, NAD M12 preamp (in reserve), Atma-Sphere Class D monos
    Speakers - Avantgarde Duo XD, Avantgarde Duo (2006) - both aesthetically modified

  47. #47
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by ack View Post
    I think the question has been answered aplenty

    -ack
    Understanding is a choice. Some people choose to pretend they don't to support their agenda.
    "We are all billionaires because of the huge piles sweet dough rolling in from our participation in the ongoing campaign to suck your collective brains through a stirrer-straw." - PTA Editorial Staff

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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    Understanding is a choice. Some people choose to pretend they don't to support their agenda.
    BS, spoken like some audio fool. Understanding is based on comprehension !
    Cheers ! …. Dave

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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    It's called...male rage.
    Yup. As we see time and time again with their posts. They never fail to entertain though they are a bit predicatble and easy to trigger.
    "We are all billionaires because of the huge piles sweet dough rolling in from our participation in the ongoing campaign to suck your collective brains through a stirrer-straw." - PTA Editorial Staff

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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Translation, you did answer the question, more than once, but wasted your time because nothing you say will convince me.

    If you actually did compare your Belden to anything else of quality and heard no difference you should have stated that initially and end of discussion. But that was your out when faced with facts.

    ACK adressed the area of a person may not hearing a difference or even making things worse. Power products, your gear and our homes are all different.

    FWIW, when I first tried power products, at the time using nothing but stock, I wanted to try a multi outlet power conditioner. The sales guy wanted me to try a PC. I didn't want to but took it to appease him. The power conditioner I took back it made things some worse. I had a Krell amp at the time and I think the conditioner choked it. However, since I had the PC I tried it. The improvement was so good I purchased a PC for everything I had that had a detachable cord. As I recall my phono stage and CDP showed the most improvement but even the Krell amp showed better performance with the better cord.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hear Here View Post
    Sorry, but I give up. Without a meter that seems to measure what seems to be a completely harmless (or perhaps a non-existent) effect, that my amplifier's power supply should be designed to cope with anyway), and my ears not noticing any difference, I'll stick with my existing simple but effective screened Belden cable. If it's good enough for pro studios, it's good enough for me. But thanks for your explanations anyway.
    Aurender ACS10 w/Audioquest Diamond USB, Esoteric N05xd
    Mark Levinson #526, 534 & JBL 4367's
    Clearaudio Performance DC w/Maestro cart
    Clarus Concerto & their Crimson cables

    HT: Marantz AV8003, Linn 5125, JBL SAM3ha, Revel s30,
    SVS PC13 Ultra
    Transparent, Analysis Plus & Tributaries. PS Audio filtering
    Sony XBR-75X940D & BDP
    Parasound P6, MBL 8006b, Artisan speakers/subwoofer

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The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

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