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  1. #51
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    This thread has been an interesting read for me. It’s truly amazing that people still think power cords have no sonic benefits. Please, I invite you to the store. We will use a single integrated amp with a built in DAC (you can pick - boulder, Soulution, Hegel, etc) and speakers of your choice and music of your choice and the only thing we will change is the one single power cord which is running everything. Stock against after market. If you still think it’s all psychosomatic, awesome. No harm no foul. But I guarantee you will be dumbfounded by the differences and sonic improvements.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
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  2. #52

    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    This thread has been an interesting read for me. It’s truly amazing that people still think power cords have no sonic benefits. Please, I invite you to the store. We will use a single integrated amp with a built in DAC (you can pick - boulder, Soulution, Hegel, etc) and speakers of your choice and music of your choice and the only thing we will change is the one single power cord which is running everything. Stock against after market. If you still think it’s all psychosomatic, awesome. No harm no foul. But I guarantee you will be dumbfounded by the differences and sonic improvements.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Get AJ to show up and convince him!
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

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  3. #53
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    Get AJ to show up and convince him!
    No need, he just needs to show me an e-meter reading with that wormhole thing, measurements suddenly matter now. New age audiophile, if I can measure 0.00001% THD aka "electrical noise", its audible, period.
    I wonder what recordings for the last 50 years have no noise riding for free, baked permanently in? Or does magic "rinse" them clean??
    Oh well, as incomprehensible as ever...Just a moment...

  4. #54
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Too bad the only competent "engineers" in high end audio are the cable guys, the mega buck component guys designing the power supplies in every audiophile system aren't worth a poop.

  5. #55
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    Yup. As we see time and time again with their posts. They never fail to entertain though they are a bit predicatble and easy to trigger.
    Yep, I have a TLA I personally use....MFB: Male Fighting Behavior.

    FWIW, I see the same exact behavior in any internet forum that is predominantly all-male: sports cars, sport bikes, digital cameras, as well as audio. Doesn't matter what the "subject" or topic is, I see the same exact behavior. By contrast, you never see women behaving this way on-line.
    Ĥѱ = 𝐸ѱ

  6. #56

    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    It’s truly amazing that people still think power cords have no sonic benefits.
    Absolutely unbelievable.
    For me it's the equivalent of the "middle age" of audio...

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    Too bad the only competent "engineers" in high end audio are the cable guys, the mega buck component guys designing the power supplies in every audiophile system aren't worth a poop.
    Many may even be good, but until they understand the importance of cables, they "aren't there" yet. Time and (true) science will prove it one day.

  7. #57
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Gotta love cable/wire discussions !!!

    Mike, I applaud you for making the offer at your store. Hopefully someone will take you up on it, perhaps I will when I'm down your way next month.
    Cheers ! …. Dave

  8. #58
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikado463 View Post
    Gotta love cable/wire discussions !!!

    Mike, I applaud you for making the offer at your store. Hopefully someone will take you up on it, perhaps I will when I'm down your way next month.
    Absolutely!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
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  9. #59
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Absolutely!


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    You could call it the convention for flat earthers.
    "We are all billionaires because of the huge piles sweet dough rolling in from our participation in the ongoing campaign to suck your collective brains through a stirrer-straw." - PTA Editorial Staff

  10. #60
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikado463 View Post
    Gotta love cable/wire discussions !!!

    Mike, I applaud you for making the offer at your store. Hopefully someone will take you up on it, perhaps I will when I'm down your way next month.
    I'd be there in a flash were it not for the thousands of miles between us. The cable and other similar audiophile tweak demos I've seen at audio shows have been generally underwhelming to the extent they have a tinge of the "The Emperor's New Clothes" about them, with many attendees ruefully nodding in recognition of the "massive sound improvement" - yet keeping their hands firmly in their pockets.

    Perhaps I should be more open-minded and ask a local dealer to do his best to convince me one way or the other.
    Sources - NAD M50.2 (streamer, CD player, CD ripper, hard drive music store)
    Amplification - NAD M33 all-in-one, NAD M12 preamp (in reserve), Atma-Sphere Class D monos
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  11. #61
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Keeping their hands in their pockets so much the cable companies are all out of business now. Wait what? There's more cable company's than ever..... WTH

    You need to quit


    Quote Originally Posted by Hear Here View Post
    I'd be there in a flash were it not for the thousands of miles between us. The cable and other similar audiophile tweak demos I've seen at audio shows have been generally underwhelming to the extent they have a tinge of the "The Emperor's New Clothes" about them, with many attendees ruefully nodding in recognition of the "massive sound improvement" - yet keeping their hands firmly in their pockets.

    Perhaps I should be more open-minded and ask a local dealer to do his best to convince me one way or the other.
    Aurender ACS10 w/Audioquest Diamond USB, Esoteric N05xd
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  12. #62

    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Hear Here View Post
    Sorry, but I give up. Without a meter that seems to measure what sounds to me to be a completely harmless (or perhaps a non-existent) effect, and one that my amplifier's power supply should be designed to cope with anyway, I'll stick with my existing simple but effective screened Belden cable. If it's good enough for pro studios, it's good enough for me. But thanks for your explanations anyway.
    You are welcome. Yeah, no issues, it's a personal choice as I said. But let it also be known that Shunyata are also advertising recording studios using their cords and conditioners (thank God!), as well their successful applications in the medical field. Perhaps you've read about the cardiologist who tried one of his high-end Shunyata NR cords on the EKG machine in his hospital and was blown away by the clarity of the traces, which eventually then led Shunyata to launch a subsidiary company focused on reducing noise in medical devices? It's called Clear Image Scientific Technology – Clear Image Scientific and if you visit that page, you'll see a better demonstration of the same Entech device plus their specialized cords (also notice the AM-radio conversations picked up by the Entech).

    Regarding power supplies in our equipment, roughly a decade ago, I was discussing with an audiophile the exact same thing: why do they need noise treatments. My answer was, they wouldn't if they were the size of refrigerators - not practical, obviously, in high-end applications and apparently medical as well. Then, about five years ago, I was introduced to a retired electrical engineer, also an audiophile, who apparently worked for the Air Force if I recall correctly. He pointed me to a video aboard a military aircraft, and specifically to one of the power supplies he designed for a device on that reconnaissance plane as captured by the video camera, and guess what, that power supply was the size of a medium-size refrigerator. He said it was exceptionally complex and very clean. So it's not that competent electrical engineers cannot design such power supplies for audio, they obviously don't, save for a few exceptions like the mega Pass monos with external power supplies.

    -ack
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  13. #63
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    So if PCs do nothing, why are the naysayers not just using Black and Red ICs and Zip Cord for Speaker wires as they can't possibly make a difference either?
    I noticed HH has exotic cables to his horns and AJ uses some boutique cables in the pics on his site. They must do something more than please themselves visually....or maybe not.
    -----------------
    Brian

    Main System -
    Rotel RCD-1572 / Rega P3 > Luxman 505UX Mark II > Fyne Audio F502SPs > Synergistic Cables

    Secondary - OPPO 93 > VAC CLA 1 MKII Pre > Odyssey Stratos > Dynaudio Audience 82s > Tara Labs Cables


  14. #64
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Hear Here View Post
    I'd be there in a flash were it not for the thousands of miles between us. The cable and other similar audiophile tweak demos I've seen at audio shows have been generally underwhelming to the extent they have a tinge of the "The Emperor's New Clothes" about them, with many attendees ruefully nodding in recognition of the "massive sound improvement" - yet keeping their hands firmly in their pockets.

    Perhaps I should be more open-minded and ask a local dealer to do his best to convince me one way or the other.
    Audio Shows ..!

    Ever heard AG’s at an Audio Show? surely you’re not using that experience to shelf it all ..

    * An Audiophile is only as old as his latest Class D incarnation *

  15. #65
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody View Post
    Keeping their hands in their pockets so much the cable companies are all out of business now. Wait what? There's more cable company's than ever..... WTH

    You need to quit

    ahhh, no, you need to revisit 'economics 101' ! In this case it's called 'follow the money'
    Cheers ! …. Dave

  16. #66
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowfax View Post
    So if PCs do nothing,
    Brian, for the umpteenth time, myself and I gotta believe most others, are not implying that a PC does 'nothing'. Rather it needs to be properly engineered and assembled for its application and NEED NOT cost a small fortune.
    Cheers ! …. Dave

  17. #67
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikado463 View Post
    and NEED NOT cost a small fortune.
    Since you are sure these small companies are overcharging you, and in your previous post you talk about your understanding of economics 101, please share with us the small cable company of your choice, their:

    NET PROFIT from their operations that shows they could afford to charge less and still have the ability to cover general business admin, R&D, rent, paying for shows and marketing, inventory, shipping, taxes, healthcare and insurance AND be able to pay for the upcoming year.

    Please, since you are so convinced their prices are wrong and too high, show us how they can successfully run the business charging less. Your feelings don't count - just the hard factual numbers please.

    Share with us what their actual salaries are as well to show they are "raking it in" while "sticking it to us audio peeps" as you are implying.

    Only factual numbers please otherwise admit you have no clue that they can charge less - and still survive as you stated. I'm also curios how many small businesses you've started from scratch, run and been responsible for making the payroll for employees where you are able to intelligently talk about this vs your feelings of what can and can't happen.

    It's always fun to watch people with zero real world experience sit back and lecture what other companies should be charging.

    I'm sure Mike could add to this with people blaming him for the cost of the gear he sells and thinking he "rakes it in" while they have ZERO clue about reality of business because clear you your post and belief takes aim at Mike as well.
    "We are all billionaires because of the huge piles sweet dough rolling in from our participation in the ongoing campaign to suck your collective brains through a stirrer-straw." - PTA Editorial Staff

  18. #68
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikado463 View Post
    Brian, for the umpteenth time, myself and I gotta believe most others, are not implying that a PC does 'nothing'. Rather it needs to be properly engineered and assembled for its application and NEED NOT cost a small fortune.
    We must be reading completely different threads then. HH seems to say otherwise above.
    -----------------
    Brian

    Main System -
    Rotel RCD-1572 / Rega P3 > Luxman 505UX Mark II > Fyne Audio F502SPs > Synergistic Cables

    Secondary - OPPO 93 > VAC CLA 1 MKII Pre > Odyssey Stratos > Dynaudio Audience 82s > Tara Labs Cables


  19. #69
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowfax View Post
    So if PCs do nothing, why are the naysayers not just using Black and Red ICs and Zip Cord for Speaker wires as they can't possibly make a difference either?
    I noticed HH has exotic cables to his horns and AJ uses some boutique cables in the pics on his site. They must do something more than please themselves visually....or maybe not.
    The difference between power cables (please let's not call them PCs as this can be Personal Computers or Power Conditioners or other PC things!) and interconnects and speakers cables is that the latter carry the signal and this needs very careful handling and nothing must be added or taken away from the pure signal. Power cords simply deliver a voltage to the power supply - nothing to do with the precious signal.

    Regarding your second point, do you consider Duelund speaker cables as "boutique"? I consider them as perfectly adequate for the job and nothing more exotic is needed. I also have Cabledyne solid silver ones too but don't use them as the Duelund are just as good and much easier to keep out of sight.
    Sources - NAD M50.2 (streamer, CD player, CD ripper, hard drive music store)
    Amplification - NAD M33 all-in-one, NAD M12 preamp (in reserve), Atma-Sphere Class D monos
    Speakers - Avantgarde Duo XD, Avantgarde Duo (2006) - both aesthetically modified

  20. #70
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Hear Here View Post
    (please let's not call them PCs as this can be Personal Computers or Power Conditioners or other PC things!) .
    I am pretty sure that "almost" everyone reading thru this thread is smart enough not to be confused and think I was talking about a personal computer.
    -----------------
    Brian

    Main System -
    Rotel RCD-1572 / Rega P3 > Luxman 505UX Mark II > Fyne Audio F502SPs > Synergistic Cables

    Secondary - OPPO 93 > VAC CLA 1 MKII Pre > Odyssey Stratos > Dynaudio Audience 82s > Tara Labs Cables


  21. #71
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowfax View Post
    AJ uses some boutique cables in the pics on his site. They must do something more than please themselves visually....or maybe not.
    I'm a closet cableist. That or unlike an audiophile, I actually understand the implications of the science evidence articles I link.

    cheers

  22. #72
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    Since you are sure these small companies are overcharging you, and in your previous post you talk about your understanding of economics 101, please share with us the small cable company of your choice, their:

    NET PROFIT from their operations that shows they could afford to charge less and still have the ability to cover general business admin, R&D, rent, paying for shows and marketing, inventory, shipping, taxes, healthcare and insurance AND be able to pay for the upcoming year.

    Please, since you are so convinced their prices are wrong and too high, show us how they can successfully run the business charging less. Your feelings don't count - just the hard factual numbers please.

    Share with us what their actual salaries are as well to show they are "raking it in" while "sticking it to us audio peeps" as you are implying.

    Only factual numbers please otherwise admit you have no clue that they can charge less - and still survive as you stated. I'm also curios how many small businesses you've started from scratch, run and been responsible for making the payroll for employees where you are able to intelligently talk about this vs your feelings of what can and can't happen.

    It's always fun to watch people with zero real world experience sit back and lecture what other companies should be charging.

    I'm sure Mike could add to this with people blaming him for the cost of the gear he sells and thinking he "rakes it in" while they have ZERO clue about reality of business because clear you your post and belief takes aim at Mike as well.
    Mikey, where did I say they are over charging me ??? YOU have a tough time understanding certain posts, for I responded to Peabody's statement of the proliferation of the number of wire companies now on the scene. Did you understand the context of my response ? Apparently not.......

    For the record, my PC's are sourced from MagicPower I've dealt with Frank for a long time.
    Cheers ! …. Dave

  23. #73
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikado463 View Post
    Mikey, where did I say they are over charging me ??? YOU have a tough time understanding certain posts, for I responded to Peabody's statement of the proliferation of the number of wire companies now on the scene. Did you understand the context of my response ? Apparently not.......

    For the record, my PC's are sourced from MagicPower I've dealt with Frank for a long time.
    Hi Davey - I quoted you in my post. Thanks for admitting you can't back up your statement.
    "We are all billionaires because of the huge piles sweet dough rolling in from our participation in the ongoing campaign to suck your collective brains through a stirrer-straw." - PTA Editorial Staff

  24. #74
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedskater View Post
    Oh dear, oh dear.
    not again!

    It's a series circuit from that big power company transformer down the street to your amplifier.
    Replacing 1 percent of it won't change anything.

    If you hear a different, there was some overlooked uncontrolled variable in your test.
    That power cord is t not the end, it is the first thing your amplifier sees.
    Jim

    D'Agostino Momentum M-400's MxV’s & HD Pre-amp
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  25. #75
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikado463 View Post
    Mikey, where did I say they are over charging me ??? YOU have a tough time understanding certain posts, for I responded to Peabody's statement of the proliferation of the number of wire companies now on the scene. Did you understand the context of my response ? Apparently not.......

    For the record, my PC's are sourced from MagicPower I've dealt with Frank for a long time.
    Wow, you paid close to $100 per cable when you could have just used $10 Belden 19364 and a few Home Depot connectors. You seem to have let yourself get ripped off
    -----------------
    Brian

    Main System -
    Rotel RCD-1572 / Rega P3 > Luxman 505UX Mark II > Fyne Audio F502SPs > Synergistic Cables

    Secondary - OPPO 93 > VAC CLA 1 MKII Pre > Odyssey Stratos > Dynaudio Audience 82s > Tara Labs Cables


  26. #76
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    Hi Davey - I quoted you in my post.
    where ??? the only quotes (") I see are yours ?? As for your quotes, you followed it with your belief in something I was implying ??


    Thanks for admitting you can't back up your statement.
    Now I haven't admitted that, but you have surely shown and demonstrated your lack of comprehension ......
    Cheers ! …. Dave

  27. #77
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowfax View Post
    So if PCs do nothing, why are the naysayers not just using Black and Red ICs and Zip Cord for Speaker wires as they can't possibly make a difference either?
    I noticed HH has exotic cables to his horns and AJ uses some boutique cables in the pics on his site. They must do something more than please themselves visually....or maybe not.
    Has anyone here claimed that power cables do nothing? Certainly I haven't and as previously stated have upgraded from standard cheap cables to ones made from first-class Belden screened cable. I've not heard any properly argued case for further expenditure on these simple and non-signal-carrying cables that are there to supply the power supply with whatever voltage it needs.

    Power cables (let’s not call them PCs as this could be personal computers, power conditioners, or anything else PC!) differ from interconnects and speaker cables because the latter handle the precious signal that must be preserved with nothing added or taken away from start to finish. Power cables simply deliver the voltage needed by the power supply within the amp.

    Regarding your second point, do you consider Duelund speaker cables as “boutique”? I have more exotic solid silver Cabledyne ones but they sound no better and Duelund can be much more easily kept out of sight.

    PS - I hope you're enjoying this playful banter as much as me. None of us here is likely to change our views, but the Shunyatas of this world stay in business to keep those with deep pockets happy and satisfied that they can't spend any more than they have. Don't forget the $1000 fuses though!

    PPS - Ooops! - this post almost duplicates my one at #69 - not intended. I lost track of my initial scribblings so started again, only to find my PC seems to have posted the first version.
    Sources - NAD M50.2 (streamer, CD player, CD ripper, hard drive music store)
    Amplification - NAD M33 all-in-one, NAD M12 preamp (in reserve), Atma-Sphere Class D monos
    Speakers - Avantgarde Duo XD, Avantgarde Duo (2006) - both aesthetically modified

  28. #78
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowfax View Post
    Wow, you paid close to $100 per cable when you could have just used $10 Belden 19364 and a few Home Depot connectors. You seem to have let yourself get ripped off

    LOL Brian, you implied I got ripped off and you're using Synergistic cables, now that's a LMAO !! You, like Mikey are taking things out of context, I STATED 'reasonably priced' ! but I get your sarcasm

    One more thing, all my current power cords were purchased before the pandemic......
    Cheers ! …. Dave

  29. #79
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikado463 View Post
    LOL Brian, you implied I got ripped off and you're using Synergistic cables, now that's a LMAO !! You, like Mikey are taking things out of context, I STATED 'reasonably priced' ! but I get your sarcasm

    One more thing, all my current power cords were purchased before the pandemic......
    OK now for some news, I paid literally a few dollars for the SRs and currently not using them because my old Tara Labs Prism sound better. I got them in a bulk deal where I purchased $15K worth of gear for $300. Now who is laughing?

    And yeah, I was just messin with you, hence the smiley face.
    -----------------
    Brian

    Main System -
    Rotel RCD-1572 / Rega P3 > Luxman 505UX Mark II > Fyne Audio F502SPs > Synergistic Cables

    Secondary - OPPO 93 > VAC CLA 1 MKII Pre > Odyssey Stratos > Dynaudio Audience 82s > Tara Labs Cables


  30. #80
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    LOL, thanks for making my point. HH was claiming people were listening but NOT buying

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikado463 View Post
    ahhh, no, you need to revisit 'economics 101' ! In this case it's called 'follow the money'
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  31. #81
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Hear Here View Post
    Has anyone here claimed that power cables do nothing? Certainly I haven't and as previously stated have upgraded from standard cheap cables to ones made from first-class Belden screened cable. I've not heard any properly argued case for further expenditure on these simple and non-signal-carrying cables that are there to supply the power supply with whatever voltage it needs.

    Power cables (let’s not call them PCs as this could be personal computers, power conditioners, or anything else PC!) differ from interconnects and speaker cables because the latter handle the precious signal that must be preserved with nothing added or taken away from start to finish. Power cables simply deliver the voltage needed by the power supply within the amp.

    Regarding your second point, do you consider Duelund speaker cables as “boutique”? I have more exotic solid silver Cabledyne ones but they sound no better and Duelund can be much more easily kept out of sight.

    PS - I hope you're enjoying this playful banter as much as me. None of us here is likely to change our views, but the Shunyatas of this world stay in business to keep those with deep pockets happy and satisfied that they can't spend any more than they have. Don't forget the $1000 fuses though!

    PPS - Ooops! - this post almost duplicates my one at #69 - not intended. I lost track of my initial scribblings so started again, only to find my PC seems to have posted the first version.
    Yes I am having a good laugh with all of this. But did I misunderstand that you said nothing more expensive than the $10 Belden cable you cited is worth buying as it will not perform any better?
    -----------------
    Brian

    Main System -
    Rotel RCD-1572 / Rega P3 > Luxman 505UX Mark II > Fyne Audio F502SPs > Synergistic Cables

    Secondary - OPPO 93 > VAC CLA 1 MKII Pre > Odyssey Stratos > Dynaudio Audience 82s > Tara Labs Cables


  32. #82
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by still-one View Post
    That power cord is t not the end, it is the first thing your amplifier sees.
    But is that so? The power cables delivers 110/240 volts AC - that would kill any amp. Luckily the amp never sees this - all it wants is just a few DC volts.
    Sources - NAD M50.2 (streamer, CD player, CD ripper, hard drive music store)
    Amplification - NAD M33 all-in-one, NAD M12 preamp (in reserve), Atma-Sphere Class D monos
    Speakers - Avantgarde Duo XD, Avantgarde Duo (2006) - both aesthetically modified

  33. #83
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    This thread has been an interesting read for me. It’s truly amazing that people still think power cords have no sonic benefits. Please, I invite you to the store. We will use a single integrated amp with a built in DAC (you can pick - boulder, Soulution, Hegel, etc) and speakers of your choice and music of your choice and the only thing we will change is the one single power cord which is running everything. Stock against after market. If you still think it’s all psychosomatic, awesome. No harm no foul. But I guarantee you will be dumbfounded by the differences and sonic improvements.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


    Every PC I've tried over stock makes a difference for better or worse.

    Some are worth the money, some aren't.
    "We are all billionaires because of the huge piles sweet dough rolling in from our participation in the ongoing campaign to suck your collective brains through a stirrer-straw." - PTA Editorial Staff

  34. #84
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Hear Here View Post
    But is that so? The power cables delivers 110/240 volts AC - that would kill any amp. Luckily the amp never sees this - all it wants is just a few DC volts.
    What are the cables on your AGs in your avatar pic? Or is that not your speaker?
    -----------------
    Brian

    Main System -
    Rotel RCD-1572 / Rega P3 > Luxman 505UX Mark II > Fyne Audio F502SPs > Synergistic Cables

    Secondary - OPPO 93 > VAC CLA 1 MKII Pre > Odyssey Stratos > Dynaudio Audience 82s > Tara Labs Cables


  35. #85
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Maybe clarify what you consider the actual amp. Because I plug my power cord One end into the wall the other into the amp, so I'm wondering how my amp isn't seeing the full 110v or so. As the power supply is the heart of any amp I would think you'd consider it part of the amp.

    As I stated in a prior post you need to quit, LOL

    Quote Originally Posted by Hear Here View Post
    But is that so? The power cables delivers 110/240 volts AC - that would kill any amp. Luckily the amp never sees this - all it wants is just a few DC volts.
    Aurender ACS10 w/Audioquest Diamond USB, Esoteric N05xd
    Mark Levinson #526, 534 & JBL 4367's
    Clearaudio Performance DC w/Maestro cart
    Clarus Concerto & their Crimson cables

    HT: Marantz AV8003, Linn 5125, JBL SAM3ha, Revel s30,
    SVS PC13 Ultra
    Transparent, Analysis Plus & Tributaries. PS Audio filtering
    Sony XBR-75X940D & BDP
    Parasound P6, MBL 8006b, Artisan speakers/subwoofer

  36. #86
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowfax View Post
    What are the cables on your AGs in your avatar pic? Or is that not your speaker?
    In order to keep things neat, the Duelund 12 gauge speaker cable and the Belden screened power cable for the AG's amps are enclosed in a cable-tidy sleeve. Nothing fancy but exceptionally good speaker cable and perfect (for its job) power cord. If I decide to feed the AG's amp with XLR cable, this could be accommodated too screened of course. Thanks for your interest.
    Sources - NAD M50.2 (streamer, CD player, CD ripper, hard drive music store)
    Amplification - NAD M33 all-in-one, NAD M12 preamp (in reserve), Atma-Sphere Class D monos
    Speakers - Avantgarde Duo XD, Avantgarde Duo (2006) - both aesthetically modified

  37. #87
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody View Post
    Maybe clarify what you consider the actual amp. Because I plug my power cord One end into the wall the other into the amp, so I'm wondering how my amp isn't seeing the full 110v or so. As the power supply is the heart of any amp I would think you'd consider it part of the amp.

    As I stated in a prior post you need to quit, LOL
    No, the amplifier, being a circuit to amplify the incoming signal, doesn't need an AC voltage. Most (not all) amplifiers share an enclosure with a power supply that does nothing but convert the high AC voltage to the low one that the amplifier needs. Some amps have external power supplies and some use batteries, thus avoiding the need for a high voltage power supply, transformer, etc in the amplifier enclosure.

    I'm sure you were well aware of this, but the explanation just in case!
    Sources - NAD M50.2 (streamer, CD player, CD ripper, hard drive music store)
    Amplification - NAD M33 all-in-one, NAD M12 preamp (in reserve), Atma-Sphere Class D monos
    Speakers - Avantgarde Duo XD, Avantgarde Duo (2006) - both aesthetically modified

  38. #88
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Hear Here View Post
    In order to keep things neat, the Duelund 12 gauge speaker cable and the Belden screened power cable for the AG's amps are enclosed in a cable-tidy sleeve. Nothing fancy but exceptionally good speaker cable and perfect (for its job) power cord. If I decide to feed the AG's amp with XLR cable, this could be accommodated too screened of course. Thanks for your interest.
    So you run PCs and Speaker Wire next to each other in the sleeve? Do you experience any issues with that? Lots of talk both ways on doing that.
    -----------------
    Brian

    Main System -
    Rotel RCD-1572 / Rega P3 > Luxman 505UX Mark II > Fyne Audio F502SPs > Synergistic Cables

    Secondary - OPPO 93 > VAC CLA 1 MKII Pre > Odyssey Stratos > Dynaudio Audience 82s > Tara Labs Cables


  39. #89
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowfax View Post
    So you run PCs and Speaker Wire next to each other in the sleeve? Do you experience any issues with that? Lots of talk both ways on doing that.
    Yes, it's another subject that gets some people hot and bothered, but there are high voltage cables (normally unscreened) inside a DAC or amp enclosure and these people don't seem to get overly concerned over these, do they?

    In fact both my speaker cable and the power cable are screened, so I have no concerns whatsoever, despite my speakers being 107 dB and care needs to be taken to avoid the slightest hint of noise.

    Neither do I concern myself that these cables are in contact with the floor (heaven forbid) and even this may get eyebrows raised by those who've spent my amplifier budget on their cable supports!

    PS - I appreciate that well designed amps have internal barriers to prevent the power-carrying wires (unscreened) from contaminating the signal itself
    Sources - NAD M50.2 (streamer, CD player, CD ripper, hard drive music store)
    Amplification - NAD M33 all-in-one, NAD M12 preamp (in reserve), Atma-Sphere Class D monos
    Speakers - Avantgarde Duo XD, Avantgarde Duo (2006) - both aesthetically modified

  40. #90
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Hear Here View Post
    Yes, it's another subject that gets some people hot and bothered, but there are high voltage cables (normally unscreened) inside a DAC or amp enclosure and these people don't seem to get overly concerned over these, do they?

    In fact both my speaker cable and the power cable are screened, so I have no concerns whatsoever. Neither do I concern myself that these cables are in contact with the floor (heaven forbid) and even this may get eyebrows raised by those who've spent my amplifier budget on their cable supports!
    Thanks
    -----------------
    Brian

    Main System -
    Rotel RCD-1572 / Rega P3 > Luxman 505UX Mark II > Fyne Audio F502SPs > Synergistic Cables

    Secondary - OPPO 93 > VAC CLA 1 MKII Pre > Odyssey Stratos > Dynaudio Audience 82s > Tara Labs Cables


  41. #91
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    Every PC I've tried over stock makes a difference for better or worse.

    Some are worth the money, some aren't.
    I've found that with a sufficiently resolving system, pretty much everything (factor) makes an audible difference. For example, I can hear differences to due changes in barometric pressure or the difference between 68°F and 72°F in my room.

    In addition to PCs, other significant factors that have audible effects are 1) room acoustics (this one is the most important of all) 2) ground-plane noise, both chassis ground-plane and signal-ground plane 3) leakage current, both as low-source and high-source impedance leakage current 4) threshold jitter 5) deterministic jitter and 6) phase noise. Digtal cables are susceptible to common-mode noise, and analog interconnects are susceptible to noise from the propogating longitudinal EM wave.

    Speaker cables are particularly sensitive to vibration imparted to them from the floor (and no, it doesn't matter if the floor is slab or not; concrete actually "rings" like a bell).
    Ĥѱ = 𝐸ѱ

  42. #92
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikado463 View Post
    If they play like they did against the Lions don't expect that kind of comeback against KC !

    is Purdy a Mahomes ? no, not yet ..........
    OH Please don't mention that singer girl that can't find a parking place for her jet.
    Synology 1019D+ - SGC Sonictransporter I9 w Roon/HQ Player- UltraRendu- PBD Stream IF to Playback Designs MPS5 via fiber optic - ARC 40th Anniversary Pre - ARC 610 T's - Martin Logan CLX's - 4 Martin Logan Depth i Subs - Shunyata Hydra, DIY PCOCC interconnects, speaker cables and power cords with Furutech terminations. Blue Jeans CAT 6's. Acoustically treated room with one permanent chair.

  43. #93
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    I've found that with a sufficiently resolving system, pretty much everything (factor) makes an audible difference.
    I agree. It's amazing how even simply moving PC's around other cables behind systems can make a difference. It's like a free upgrade.

    It's pretty easy to pick up sound differences when PC's are too close to certain other cables.
    "We are all billionaires because of the huge piles sweet dough rolling in from our participation in the ongoing campaign to suck your collective brains through a stirrer-straw." - PTA Editorial Staff

  44. #94
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    I agree. It's amazing how even simply moving PC's around other cables behind systems can make a difference. It's like a free upgrade.

    It's pretty easy to pick up sound differences when PC's are too close to certain other cables.
    Yup...
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  45. #95
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    I bought a bunch of used Shunyata shielded power cables about 5 years ago. 3 x 1.5 M venoms and 2 x 1.5M Diamondbacks. Just to try out. Being an engineer by trade I trend toward the objective side.

    I have an Audio Precision System 222 audio analyzer with the DSP option which can measure signals and noise well below the capabilities of commercial audio gear. So I did a little experiment. I measured the SNR of my MC 2301's with stock cables. Preamp was on, volume turned all the way down. SNR, A-weighted was: L -122dB, R -123dB ref full power. This beat Mcintosh spec by a bit, so was in the ballpark. I ran a 16,384 point fft and found 60 Hz components at L -131dB and R -131dB or about 8 dB below the broadband noise floor. Then I switched to the Diamondback cables. SNR, A-weighted, was L -122 dB and R -123 dB. Same as before. Then I ran the same FFT as before and found the 60 Hz components were L -140 dB and R - 141 dB.

    So the Diamondback cables made a 9 dB improvement in 60 Hz noise of the output of my MC 2301 amplifiers. No, these cables didn't make a difference in measured A-weighted noise, but humans can hear tones 15 dB below the broadband noise floor. So, these cables made a measurable difference at the OUTPUT of my amplifiers. They moved the 60 Hz component below audibility. Did they sound any better? Yes, I think they did. They stayed in the system and I bought more of them. But of course that subjective statement is colored by the fact that I knew they performed better objectively.

    Call it bullshit if you will, but there are real physical reasons why power cables may make a sonic difference. Power cables radiate strong magnetic and electric fields that decay at a rate proportional to the inverse square of the distance from the cable. Yes there are miles of transmission line between you and your equipment but no, those don't matter because they are miles from your equipment. Your power cords do matter because they are right next to your audio cabling. And yes, as a designer I can mitigate or eliminate their effects inside the equipment chassis itself. As an audiophile you can choose cables with superior electric and magnetic field performance, avoid running power and audio cables physically parallel to each other, and cross them at right angles with some distance between them wherever possible.
    Tom

    Audio:
    Amati Futura Mains
    Amati Homage VOX Center,
    Proac Response 1sc Rears,
    Three MC2301's for L,C,R
    MC 602 for the rears
    C 1100, MX 151, MCD 1100, MR 77
    Nottingham Dais with Sumiko Palo Santos Presentation
    SurfacePro 3, JRiver, WW Starlight Platinum USB, Schiit Yggdrasil, Benchmark DAC3 HGC

    Video:
    MX 151, OppO BDP-95, JVC RS-500 DILA projector, 106" diagonal Stewart Luxus Screenwall Deluxe with Studiotek 130 G3 material.

    Lake House:
    Ohm F, MC 275V, C2300, MR 80, Rega P3

    OnDeck:
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  46. #96
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    a] were the Diamondbacks the same length as the stocks?
    b] were the Diamondbacks positioned (dressed) as the stocks?
    c] did all your interconnects have a heavy braided shield?

  47. #97
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedskater View Post
    a] were the Diamondbacks the same length as the stocks?
    b] were the Diamondbacks positioned (dressed) as the stocks?
    c] did all your interconnects have a heavy braided shield?
    a) Yes
    b) Yes
    c) Yes, Mogami 2549 for the balanced interconnects. Speaker wire is Kimber 8TC which is multiple twisted pairs, unshielded.

    I also measured the field strengths at the cable jackets using a Trifield TF2 EMF meter:

    Stock OEM E Field 235 V/m H Field 42 mG

    Diamondback E Field 3 V/m H Field 14 mG

    At 60 Hz the predominate coupling mechanism will be H field
    Tom

    Audio:
    Amati Futura Mains
    Amati Homage VOX Center,
    Proac Response 1sc Rears,
    Three MC2301's for L,C,R
    MC 602 for the rears
    C 1100, MX 151, MCD 1100, MR 77
    Nottingham Dais with Sumiko Palo Santos Presentation
    SurfacePro 3, JRiver, WW Starlight Platinum USB, Schiit Yggdrasil, Benchmark DAC3 HGC

    Video:
    MX 151, OppO BDP-95, JVC RS-500 DILA projector, 106" diagonal Stewart Luxus Screenwall Deluxe with Studiotek 130 G3 material.

    Lake House:
    Ohm F, MC 275V, C2300, MR 80, Rega P3

    OnDeck:
    McIntosh MAC 4300v

  48. #98
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Now we're getting into some interesting discussion, thank you gents !!
    Cheers ! …. Dave

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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    This discussion has been interesting. I know a fellow audiophile who has purchased a handful of Odin Gold Power cables. They list for $34,999 for 1.25 meters. Bet we know how he feels about the importance of power cables. In total, he has more money sunk in Nordost cables than I have in my entire system.
    Main Equipment: Kharma Elegance dB11-S, JL Audio F113v2, Block Audio Line & Mono SE Amplification, Bricasti M21 DAC, Antipodes Kala K-50 Server, ClearAudio Performance SE, Satisfy Arm & Maestro Wood MM Cartridge
    Power: 3 x 20 Amp Lines, Shunyata Everest 8000, Sigma XC v2, Shunyata Sigma v2 NR, Block Audio Power Cords, Defender, ADDPowr Wizard
    Grounding: Shunyata Altaira CGS - Alpha CGS cables
    Network : Supra Cat 8+, Twin (Nenon Modified) Buffalo GS2016 Switches powered with Keces P3 LPSU,
    Cables: Wireworld Platinum Starlight 8 USB, Wireworld Platinum Eclipse 8 SCs, 1M & 6M Tubulus Concentus ICs,
    Other: Isoacoustics GAIA I footers on the Kharmas, GIK/Vicoustics/Stillpoint Apertures, Stillpoint Ultra SS, Furutech GTX - Gold outlets, Adona Rack

  50. #100
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    Re: The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

    Quote Originally Posted by crwilli View Post
    This discussion has been interesting. I know a fellow audiophile who has purchased a handful of Odin Gold Power cables. They list for $34,999 for 1.25 meters. Bet we know how he feels about the importance of power cables. In total, he has more money sunk in Nordost cables than I have in my entire system.
    Too funny Craig, proving some people have more money than brains !
    Cheers ! …. Dave

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The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

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