Thread: I am a non-believer

Originally Posted by NorthStar

Best ones are the WBT German locked-on type.

All of the WBT parts I've used (locking bananas, binding posts, Locking RCAs) have been top notch parts.. and I've never actually used their top-line pieces.

Of course like with everything in this crazy hobby, there are those who say WBT parts don't sound as good as others.
I'm the first to admit my ears are not quite good enough to detect the difference between binding post A and binding post B.
...but I do believe in ghosts, I do I do I do believe in ghosts.

Just like a loonie2.jpg there are two sides to this debate, the believers & the non believers, i'm from the believer camp BUT not over the top believer, all i want is DECENT cables, - my interconnects are Gabriel Gold Rapture R - my speaker cables are Tara Labs Temporal Continuum - my power cords ( 4 ) are Grant Fidelity PC-1.5 - and i use a Grant Fidelity RPF-120 power conditioner for extra receptacles, these are all reasonable priced cables and they do the job, could it be better ????? the answer is yes but all these cables are better than what the stock units come with.

I'm way in the non-believer section. In fact, I hate cables....seriously. I use what I use and I won't mention the cables I use because it leads to violence in my veiw. I will say that I have tried (at no cost thank goodness) a couple of those expensive cables. One made no difference at all and the other actually introduced major RF interference. I only tried them to satisfy those who said I never tried cables. I fulfilled my obligation. That's just my experience with my gear. I don't begrudge anyone who uses or likes the 3 and 4 digit cables or what have you. I say enjoy if you can do it.
I will say though, that I made my own speaker cables, complete with the pants, terminators, heatshrink and fancy covering (forgot what it's called) and it was actually, pretty fun, I must say. Cost me well under 3 digits and to me they are the same as the 4 digit ones in all respects. Of course, I can't prove it because it's just my own opinion based on my ears and I'm not an electronics expert. What I am, is someone trying to do a hobby that my income does not support.
I wish there was gear that didn't use cables.
I find much bigger differences or improvements in sound not to mention cost effectivness with room treatment, speaker placement and speakers themselves and even EQ, if needed.
Just my worthless opinion. Everyone's mileage will vary.

Originally Posted by MusicDirector

I'm way in the non-believer section. In fact, I hate cables....seriously. I use what I use and I won't mention the cables I use because it leads to violence in my veiw. I will say that I have tried (at no cost thank goodness) a couple of those expensive cables. One made no difference at all and the other actually introduced major RF interference. I only tried them to satisfy those who said I never tried cables. I fulfilled my obligation.
I will say though, that I made my own speaker cables, complete with the pants, terminators, heatshrink and fancy covering (forgot what it's called) and it was actually, pretty fun, I must say. Cost me well under 3 digits and to me they are the same as the 4 digit ones in all respects. Of course, I can't prove it because it's just my own opinion based on my ears and I'm not an electronics expert. What I am, is someone trying to do a hobby that my income does not support.
I wish there was gear that didn't use cables.

I did too ...and posted it here..but that's what is cool about audio shark...believer or non-believer, we all respect each others opinions...there are no CERTAINTIES that people have to fight to the death over ..lol

You know what is going to happen don't you? One of these days I am going to try some expensive interconnects and start preaching the cable gospel ...The Book Of Rob...

Originally Posted by MusicDirector

I'm way in the non-believer section. In fact, I hate cables....seriously. I use what I use and I won't mention the cables I use because it leads to violence in my veiw. . . . .I find much bigger differences or improvements in sound not to mention cost effectivness with room treatment, speaker placement and speakers themselves and even EQ, if needed. . . . .

Well said!

The more you spend on cables the more you have to tell yourself how big a difference they make!

Different cables are said to affect the sound differently, hence the need for different cables with different equipment, but it is strange that everyone always gravitates to the more expensive cables to be "better" in their system. No one ever trades DOWN to cheaper cables because they sound better in their system and no one does completely blind listening. VEDDY INTERESTING. I wonder why?????

Originally Posted by GaryProtein

Well said!

The more you spend on cables the more you have to tell yourself how big a difference they make!

Different cables are said to affect the sound differently, hence the need for different cables with different equipment, but it is strange that everyone always gravitates to the more expensive cables to be "better" in their system. No one ever trades DOWN to cheaper cables because they sound better in their system and no one does completely blind listening. VEDDY INTERESTING. I wonder why?????

Gary,

To the point you've made, I can say I'm that fool who cycled through $20k worth of cables(Nordost TYR loom to Valhalla loom), and now settle down with about $3,500 loom in my system. The AZ is actually sounded best in my system, but of course everyone's MMV...

Originally Posted by GaryProtein

Well said!

The more you spend on cables the more you have to tell yourself how big a difference they make!

Different cables are said to affect the sound differently, hence the need for different cables with different equipment, but it is strange that everyone always gravitates to the more expensive cables to be "better" in their system. No one ever trades DOWN to cheaper cables because they sound better in their system and no one does completely blind listening. VEDDY INTERESTING. I wonder why?????

I went from $2,000 MIT cables to $300 BJC/WBT cables.

Originally Posted by GaryProtein

Well said!

The more you spend on cables the more you have to tell yourself how big a difference they make!

Different cables are said to affect the sound differently, hence the need for different cables with different equipment, but it is strange that everyone always gravitates to the more expensive cables to be "better" in their system. No one ever trades DOWN to cheaper cables because they sound better in their system and no one does completely blind listening. VEDDY INTERESTING. I wonder why?????

I have to be honest...I have never tried really expensive cables BUT I have had cables make a difference.

Exanple - changing tonearm wires to Litz wires..made a difference...and cost under $30 to do so.

I made some really cool speaker cables (have shown them here before) that cost under $100 and they made a difference.

For me though, that's the extent of what I will spend as I believe the value is a set of diminishing returns. If spending $500 made my sound go from awesome (which it is now) to "wow..I am in the studio"..then I would do it...but truly, I think the change (if any) is much more subtle. There is only so much a cable can do truly...just simple physics.

Now if you have 50 or 60K in a system and feel that 3k is a good investment in cables, that's really your call (and your money..lol) but truly, if you have spent thousands on cables, have you ever done bling side by side tests? Most people don't. they get expensive cables and they perceive a difference (not saying all) but that perception is not based on A - B, A B sound testing. Its based on "well I think it sounded like this, and this seems better_..But does it?

I am not debating at all (posts don't give tone or inflection) but this is a very valid question. I have seen studies that say in blind tests, there is no difference...

Know what though? I like to think "To each his own..whatever makes the listener happy"...because that's all that counts !!!

^^^^^ Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying cables make no difference what so ever. You can't use cables that have crappy construction and bad shielding where they pick up hum.

From my posts near the start of this thread, I do say the conductors and insulation should be hefty and you need good solder joints with connectors that are strong enough to withstand years of insertions and removal.

What you don't need to do is spend hundreds or certainly not thousands of dollars on a cable or interconnect to achieve the above criteria.

From your description of what you have done with your cables and what you expect from them, I think we're in the same ballpark.

Just to be clear, I am NOT using $1.98 radio shack cables.

Originally Posted by ohbythebay

I have to be honest...I have never tried really expensive cables BUT I have had cables make a difference.

...

+1. I do think cables make a difference. Some changes may be subtle, but still important to the perceived 'realness' of the music. I just find the pricing of some cables difficult to swallow.

Gentlemen, the answer is clear. Look no further. These are not cheap, but very hard to beat. The tech and build quality is second to none. When I upgrade my system, these are the cables I will be buying! I will not settle for anything less. They are an OEM, so some (or more than some) of your fav high end cables were made by these guys!

:::NEOTECH::: Professional Cable for Perfect Audios

I disagree, even budget power cables can make more than a subtle difference. The results are a combination of the cable and the gear that it's used on, it has nothing to do with burn in time either.

I started 9 years back with Monster and worked my way up with the everthing, let just say now I thank Nordost for Valhalla.

Originally Posted by MusicDirector

I have to show my "non-believer" card here. I don't believe in cables period. I wish they did not exist. I hate cables so much that I continue to deny using them even though I am forced to use some. My making my system completely wireless did not work out on paper in the final analysis, so it's a non-starter unfortunately. I make my own speaker cables. As far as interconnects go, I wish I did not have to use them, but I use.......I ain't sayin, but they are very affordable, do the job and not on any list you will see here or many other forums. That's all I'm saying about cables and refuse to say anymore about them. I'm one of those non-believers that will never be convinced otherwise by anyone or through demo or by any force. I refuse to even listen. When I attended an audio show last year, if there were cables in the room I refused to enter no matter what else was in there of interest, seriously. That's how averted I am to the whole subject of cables.

If you attended the Nordost demo at RMAF you wouldn't be saying that. Cables make a HUGE difference - starting with power cables - then speaker cables - then interconnects. Cables can make as big a difference - and sometimes a bigger difference - then a component change. Attend a NORDOST demo and you will be shocked.

Originally Posted by Mike

If you attended the Nordost demo at RMAF you wouldn't be saying that. Cables make a HUGE difference - starting with power cables - then speaker cables - then interconnects. Cables can make as big a difference - and sometimes a bigger difference - then a component change. Attend a NORDOST demo and you will be shocked.

+1...

I would suggest visiting a local audio dealer and doing some comparison shopping. Also, you can even leverage the cable library from the The Cable Company (Mike I hope you are ok with this) at listen in your own home environment. You may be surprised....

Originally Posted by Ritmo

+1...

I would suggest visiting a local audio dealer and doing some comparison shopping. Also, you can even leverage the cable library from the The Cable Company (Mike I hope you are ok with this) at listen in your own home environment. You may be surprised....

Of course Mike! I'm not "that other guy"! This site is about helping one another - not buying stuff I sell.

It is hard to believe in 2013 there are people who still think cables, and power, do not make a difference, let alone a huge difference in even a moderate level stereo. This non-belief is right up there with flat-earthers.

Originally Posted by MusicDirector

And there we have it. This statement is a good example of why I do not discuss cables with anyone. Nobody wants to talk truly scientifically about cables, just a bunch of political statements or put-downs and errant assumptions on others abilities to understand or even think. So I do not bother anymore.

In my opinion +1 !!!!!!

It's a bit ironic that I popped over (not sure what came over me) to this thread for a quick look...

I was preparing a "DIY" post regarding some of my latest "DIY" RCA cables. As I began drafting it, I'd already written a big disclaimer about me making any suggestions whatsoever relating to any perceived "sound" of the cables...in hopes of NOT starting yet yet yet yet another cable / power cord debate.

Well I've always been on the fence on cables. And I believe the fact that the markup on new cables is 500-1000%. That is why most cables sell used for their real value , usually at 20% of what they were new. I recently spent $375 on a pair of 1.5 m acoustic zen interconnects. Used . That's roughly 10% of the cost of the components on either side of them. Did they help? Maybe a little. I'd have not been happy if I paid the $1200 they would have been new.
My plan for power cables and conditioner is not clear to me yet . So I picked up a couple real fat 1m power cords for just $80 each and they made an instant difference over the 10ft long stock cables that came with the snappers. Right out of the box instantly heard quieter background , which aided in a deeper soundstage. I was sceptic all about these doing anything , so I listened to the same cd twice. Then put the new cables in and listened to the same again I was instantly apparent I got a good deal on tues and it helped the overall sound!!
You don't have to spend a fortune on power cables to get results, but getting something that is heavily shielded is a better product than the stock cords that come with most equipment
Just my opinion

I will continue the argument, sorry for doing so. But cables definitely make an audible difference. Some more than others and sometimes not for the better. But this is a big boys hobby with lots of wealthy players and my opinion is that if a 20000.00 cables sounds better to an individual than a 100.00 cable then by all means buyit if you can. Do I feel the small improvement is worth the price? No, but this hobby is not always about the music. It becomes a quest for the best possible sounding system one can afford to put together. If this were just based on the music then a modest 5k system would suffice. But this is a hobby that part of the fun is building the audio system first and enjoying the music second. I'm going to use a horsepower analogy. I know a fellow that owns a NHRA top fuel drag racing team. We were discussing power cords and I told him it would be minimal improvements compared to the money spent. He said " hell, I spend 150k for a half horsepower". But he is building the best possible motor he can. Same thing with cables, they need to be viewed as another component. If I had a Chevy Camaro I definitely would not spend 150k for half a horsepower. I think it all depends on where your trying to go with this crazy, awesome hobby.

Originally Posted by baskinshaw

I will continue the argument, sorry for doing so. But cables definitely make an audible difference. Some more than others and sometimes not for the better. But this is a big boys hobby with lots of wealthy players and my opinion is that if a 20000.00 cables sounds better to an individual than a 100.00 cable then by all means buyit if you can.

No problem, without discussion nobody will learn anything. Of course those who don't want the facts to interfere with their opinion will never learn, but others will.

I just want to add you do not need to spend $20K on a cable to get great results. For example, the most expensive Shunyata cable is the Zytron Anaconda speaker cable at $4K. The entire Zytron line, power/IC/speaker, low price to expensive is phenomenal. There is plenty of science/engineering on their web site to explain what is going on.

Originally Posted by baskinshaw

. . . . . . with this crazy, awesome hobby.

+1

Originally Posted by baskinshaw

I will continue the argument, sorry for doing so. But cables definitely make an audible difference. Some more than others and sometimes not for the better. But this is a big boys hobby with lots of wealthy players and my opinion is that if a 20000.00 cables sounds better to an individual than a 100.00 cable then by all means buyit if you can. Do I feel the small improvement is worth the price? No, but this hobby is not always about the music. It becomes a quest for the best possible sounding system one can afford to put together. If this were just based on the music then a modest 5k system would suffice. But this is a hobby that part of the fun is building the audio system first and enjoying the music second. I'm going to use a horsepower analogy. I know a fellow that owns a NHRA top fuel drag racing team. We were discussing power cords and I told him it would be minimal improvements compared to the money spent. He said " hell, I spend 150k for a half horsepower". But he is building the best possible motor he can. Same thing with cables, they need to be viewed as another component. If I had a Chevy Camaro I definitely would not spend 150k for half a horsepower. I think it all depends on where your trying to go with this crazy, awesome hobby.

David, you don't post much but I love your posts when you do. Well said, good sir.

Originally Posted by socfan12

David, you don't post much but I love your posts when you do. Well said, good sir.

+1

Thank you. Although I do not post much I am on the forum daily reading and enjoying all of the topics. I try to stay out of most conversations since I am a dealer for many of the brands/products that are talked about. I just don't want to come across as trying to push one brand or the other. But it is very relaxing to log on and read about what people are doing all over the world with Audio gear.

David

Originally Posted by joeinid

David

+1000!

Originally Posted by joeinid

David

+1. David is an amazing guy. I love him.

I sure wish that I could find some cable blinders to put on. I want to believe that they don't make I difference but I've auditioned enough in my system to realize that's not the case for me. Some are better, some worse, some just different. If I let them, cables drive me crazy. Talk about options!!!

Originally Posted by baskinshaw

Thank you. Although I do not post much I am on the forum daily reading and enjoying all of the topics. I try to stay out of most conversations since I am a dealer for many of the brands/products that are talked about. I just don't want to come across as trying to push one brand or the other. But it is very relaxing to log on and read about what people are doing all over the world with Audio gear.

Feel free to express your opinion like anyone else David. ...It don't matter what you do for a living, what matters is what your ears love to hear.

I am now at point where I believe good cables and clean power are the foundation of a system. With a good, solid, foundation moderate gear is able to perform at its peak, and any gear upgrades will perform at its potential right from the start. Without a good foundation you are missing out on the full potential your gear is capable of producing.

Of course, I had to hear it for myself as I went through various power and cable upgrades on my previous system, but now my current system is sounding great thanks to the foundation I built before. Live and learn, as the saying goes.

Go for solid core silver (Nordost or KK), or ultra-pure (or hyper-pure) copper (9Ns) or silver without impurities (KK).
...And solid (or plated) gold/platinum spades (or XLR balanced connectors), or lock-on banana plugs (German).
...Twisted (braid) with solid core. ...Titanium?

Teflon covering. ...Or equivalent insulation, or better.

Originally Posted by DScarinci1

Be careful about the silver for power cords and cables that carry an analog signal. The silver tends to increase transparency which can alter the sound in a positive or negative way depending on the components and the cables you are using elsewhere.
I am finding that there is a bit of alchemy with cables and pairing them correctly is very important to the sound you get.

Component's synergy; you got it. ...Silver cables are usually good with smoother electronics, not bright ones.
Cables (interconnects, speaker wires, AC power cords) are EQs in their own peculiar way; choose properly with your own peculiar audio electronic components. ...Fine-tune your "sound" to your own liking.

My friend Elrocco wish that he was in the non believer camp because he would have saved lot's of money because in his fine system he as 38k worth of top of the line Purist Audio Design yes it is lot's of money but like he say's IT'S MY MONEY also as no wife to tell him what to do that helps.

Système Elrocco 01.jpg Système Elrocco 02.jpg Système Elrocco 03.jpg

Teo Audio: Liquid Cable


6moons audio reviews: Teo Audio Liquid Cable - 6Moons

Let's just say I am a believer.
3m speaker cables: approximately $40,000
I auditioned them in my system and definitely heard an impressive difference! Their reference grade IC's were pretty wonderful too. Most everything the 6moons review states is pretty much spot on. Nonetheless, I couldn't bring myself to spending that much money.

Flame on.

Not too shabby forty grands!