Thread: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

Originally Posted by brodricj

For me, no. I returned the ER to the dealer and reverted back to using a Pakedge SE-5-EP switch. The Pakedge was way better, and a fraction of the price of ER with 10Mhz clock option.

This may 100% be my experience as well. I like to try stuff vs just hearing about it.

So for me being able to try this - and return it to Amazon if I don't like it - AND I'll be one less keyboard commando slinging uninformed statements on the internet vs having actually tried it - I've got nothing to loose.

Originally Posted by Puma Cat

I skipped those items out for a number of reasons, most of which was the complexity, and most significantly, the ability to reliaby and predictably connect everything together, and always have it work.[/I] For example, one of the specific issues I had was with the SOtM network bridge was often losing connection to the SOtM's Eunhasu Server local set-up page.

Also, the EtherREGEN (ER) switch is prone, in my experience, to overheating. I think overheating creates tolerance issues with the dimensions of the SFP cage and the connection some optical transceivers can make with the SFP cage contacts. The streaming network will work and when it works, it sounds really good, but my specific set-up, it was really fussy a lot of the time, and prone to not working if my network couldn't connect to the SOtM Eunhasu server, or the USB cable's A-end came very slightly dislodged from the female USB-A port in the SOtM, or the ER's RJ45 port would lose contact with the Omega Ethernet cable's Telegartner connector (which is really heavy), and last but not least, the optical transceiver in the SFP cage of EtherREGEN was prone to not consistently connecting.

Also, ER runs REALLY hot and I started powering it down when not using it because I was concerned with it ultimately failing (as my UpTone LPS-1.0 did) and also the SFP cage tolerances expanding a bit and losing contact with the optical transceiver. Also, sometimes ER would lose sync with the AfterDark master clock, and I'd have to re-set it, take the clock cable off, re-boot, and then hope ER would sync back up with AfterDark clock. It just all got to be too much.

Now I just run an LC/LC optical cable from the remote servier into the back of the Lumin P1 and everything works. EVERY time. It's proven to be consideraby simpler, and as such, more reliable and predictable. And sounds considerably better, too. All told, I was able to remove 15 bits of gear from the "digital set-up" by getting the P1.

And that's the point. You dumped a bunch of stuff that made your digital signal chain unreliable because you added unnecessary components that increased the complexity while reducing the reliability.

Originally Posted by Puma Cat

Don't get me wrong about ER. I think it represented a breakthrough product when it debuted and it really demonstrated the importance of the Ethernet switch for music streaming application in high-end audio, especially when considering the absolute crap "generic" switches that were available from the LAN networking industry at the time of it's debut. The functional requirements for a switch sending a PDF file to a laser printer for printing a hard copy of a document are very, very different than sending a high-res music file from a music server to a network bridge or audio streamer. Back when ER launched, some folks posed questions about how hot it was getting and the reply was "It's fine, don't worry about it."

And for the most part, that was true. But, as someone who worked as a DFSS Master Black Belt (MBB) for >10 years, I can tell you there are two key Dimensions of Quality that are NEVER discussed by product reviewers and almost always not considered by product developers. Particularly in high-end audio. These dimensions of quality are not features nor functions, and therefore, they are not "sexy", so they NEVER get discussed by audio reviewers, but they are very important in the REAL WORLD, where we all....actually live (not the pages of an audio review).

These Dimensions of Quality are referred to in Six Sigma and Design for Six Sigma (DFSS) as Design for X*, where X is the "-ilities", and in this case, two of the X's are: 1) Reliability and 2) Durability.

In my experience, and in the experience of most all other customers, ER worked very well, especially when new. But after years and years of hard use, with ER being left powered on 24/7 for years, in my experience, it's possible for ER to suffer from from reliability failure modes† that may compromise it's overall useful product life, aka, it's durability. My hypothesis is that the very sophisticated components, e.g. the FPGA, and/or the Crystek CCHD-575 clock, or other components, may fail from ER running so hot for so long. Part of the basis for this hypothesis is I have owned two other UpTone products, the LPS-1.0 and LPS-1.2 linear power supplies, purchased in 2016 and 2019 respectively, that also run really hot and...both of them have failed. So, of the 3 UpTone products I've bought, 2 of them are dead, and because of the chip shortage, they cannot be repaired. They've also been discontinued from production for the same reasons.

As a result, the last month or so, when I wasn't using the system, I resorted to unplugging the ER from it's pwer supply so it would not be so hot, all the time. I would plug it in when listening, and unplug it when the system was off.

The only reason I've been able to use my original Sonore OpticalModule in the remote server room is I bought a third UpTone LPS-1.0 LPS from a friend. I think the reason it has not failed is that the OM only needs 5V, not the 9V that ER needed. Running at almost half the voltage, the OpticalModule does not run as hot, and as a result is more durable. In my opinion, UpTone broke new ground with the development these products, but in my experience, they may have an MTBF of 3-5 years.

*-some of the other Dimensions of Quality in Design for X are: Serviceability, Repairability, and (Parts) Availability. These quality attributes never get mentioned in product reviews because they are not not sexy and not glamorous. But they are very important in the REAL WORLD. Imagine buying a car with no spare parts availability. Or, a car that cannot be repaired.

†-a failure mode is anything that can go wrong. It is the basis for performing the Failure Modes and Effects Analysis, FMEA, and was developed by NASA during the Space Program in the 1960s.

I worked with six sigma in a past life.

I think ultimately we loose the willingness to be openminded on trying new stuff, and that something new might work, because many of spend too much time trying to be experts to try and explain on things that may not be the right things to focus on.

I learned this from my group of Best audio buddies years ago. Each one had a system worth at least $150K and they would come up with the weirdest cheap stuff to try sometimes that sounds fantastic. I remember one compared a $150 Art Audio cheap (from Guitar Center) the DAC, modes a resistor and put in a NOS tube, and for $300 total price he was using it instead of $5K DAC's. Or how the cheap Hotel CD transport and entry level Theta Digital DAC smoked the new Krell CD player (I owned them all) that was twice the price of the combo. THAT was my first real experience that more $$ and high end brand names don't always equate to better.

That group ran big up in the recording and audio reviewing circles in NYC back then. It was amazing that they always felt the really good products that couldn't afford to buy their way into the reviews never got any reviews written about them so the best sounding gear was rarely written about.

I kinda view this stuff the same way - it's the under-the-radar products than can (or may not) make huge gains in sound but are not "cool" enough for many to care about. Plus, I think its so much more fun to try different things than just the same-ole stuff that is so over talked about.

Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute

...It was amazing that they always felt the really good products that couldn't afford to buy their way into the reviews never got any reviews written about them so the best sounding gear was rarely written about..

This is a good point. Can anybody point me at a review of the Esoteric Grandioso D1X? When the D1X first came to the US market I was told by the distributor that a review example was doing the rounds. That was over two years ago and nothing came of it.

Originally Posted by brodricj

This is a good point. Can anybody point me at a review of the Esoteric Grandioso D1X? When the D1X first came to the US market I was told by the distributor that a review example was doing the rounds. That was over two years ago and nothing came of it.

That is a terrible point actually. It is a myth that keeps perpetuating on audio forums that companies have to "buy their way into reviews" and there is never any proof. Did you ever think of the possibility that the reason the Esoteric D1X hasn't been reviewed is because Esoteric never made one available for review? If you really want to know the answer, why don't you contact Esoteric directly and ask them?

Did you miss what I said "I was told by the distributor that a review sample was doing the rounds"?

Originally Posted by brodricj

Did you miss what I said "I was told by the distributor that a review sample was doing the rounds"?

No, I read it. It doesn't mean it really happened. Do you really think that Esoteric can't get their gear reviewed if they want to have it reviewed? If the D1X was really "doing the rounds" for reviews for 2 years, do you really think that no reviews would have appeared? If you really want to know the truth, contact Esoteric directly and ask them.

Originally Posted by brodricj

Did you miss what I said "I was told by the distributor that a review sample was doing the rounds"?

You are exactly right. Look at what Jay talks about in his recent video where he covers this. He was told this POINT BLANK at Capital Audio Fest by mfg's and distributors. Also google former reviewer Arthur Salvatore as he talks in depth about the corruption from 10, 20, 30 years ago we all know exist.

It's like these over-the-hill reviewers are spitting and trying to convince us it's raining. That's why they hate YouTube and such - it threatens their control over what gear you know about - and there is no need to buy into has-been media reviews any longer with the new ways of talking about product. It's quite interesting to watch this shift in dynamic between those embracing it and those trying to fight it (a loosing fight).

Check this out from Arthur Salvatore - a former reviewer. If you google him he also posts complete emails of his fights with Myles. It's like watching a bunch of middle schoolers argue. STEREOPHILESTEREOPHILE

Originally Posted by Puma Cat

I just try work as best as I can to configure the system based on an understanding of science, engineering, and data. Sometimes, DOEs can help with that. For digital audio, it's primarily about 1) removing noise and 2) optimizing signal. It's ironic that "Perfect Sound Forever" is actually really prone to being significantly impacted by a slew of noise factors. The key noise components for "digital-domain only" devices are common-mode noise, high-source impedance leakage current, threshold jitter, and phase noise. Good digital cables can remove common-mode noise, optical can remove leakage current and thus, reduce or ameliorate threshold jitter, but what optical won't do is eliminate phase noise from crap clocks "upstream". For that, you need excellent digital clocks to attenuate or reduce phase noise.

For both "analog amplification" and "digital-doman" devices, the remaining class of significant noise factors is ground-plane noise, and CG and SG Altaira hubs deal very, very effective with that.

Thanks for your help. I'll let you know how my experiment works out.

Originally Posted by brodricj

For me, no. I returned the ER to the dealer and reverted back to using a Pakedge SE-5-EP switch. The Pakedge was way better, and a fraction of the price of ER with 10Mhz clock option.

Are you using the Pakedge as a hifi quality ethernet switch? They seem to be a more obscure brand - what led you to that one and how do you like it?

Originally Posted by Puma Cat

The other switch to consider is the SOtM sNH-10G. They also have two optical transceiver SFP cages. You can also get them with the SOtM SCL-EX clock board for an extra $700; the SOtM SCL-EX clock board is really an excellent clock.

Yes - thank you. I've been looking at that. I have a cable and filter of theirs on order to try first long with several other ethernet cables.

My plan is to compare my Netgear vs TP link switch as-is now and see if there is a sound difference between those two.

Then I will introduce the upgraded $15 PS you suggested I ordered on each and see how that is.

Then I will try the fiber set up.

Then I will consider the SOtm. But to be honest in the interest of not getting too complicated, I would probably skip dealing with external clocks and such.

I will also try plugging the switches into a wall and an older AudioQuest power condition that is now sidelined since it was replaced by the AQ 1200 I got from Mike recently.

Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute

Are you using the Pakedge as a hifi quality ethernet switch? They seem to be a more obscure brand - what led you to that one and how do you like it?

I've been using Pakedge for as long as I can remember. I discovered the brand via Barry over at remotecentral.com when I was looking for a better WiFi solution for my ProntoPro TSU9600 remote controls. That was a Pakedge W6 access point and it just worked. Since then I've owned the whole Pakedge family as they introduced new models, including access points, network switches, routers, management agents and power distributors. The downside with Pakedge is their rubbish support. They see their customers as the dealers which re-sell their hardware and not the end users. They won't help end users with anything. The basic 5 port unmanaged Pakedge switch just walked all over the clocked ER. As much as I wanted the ER to be better, because it was expensive, because it was clocked, because it was marketed as audiophile grade, etc, it just wasn't in the same orbit as the Pakedge.

Originally Posted by u-sound

agreed,
while brands vary, the topology of the good ones were always the same.
switches in series, best vibration control, good cables. add a linear ps to the router. no fiber!!

Some interesting points. Which brands have you found that you like for switches and such? Thanks for sharing.

Originally Posted by u-sound

...YOU NEED EXCELLENT CLOCKS...

So true. In digital audio the 1's and 0's are only half the story. Timing is the other half. The quality of the clock and the clock cables are critical.

With the ER I had it clocked to an Esoteric master clock generator, connected with a Shunyata Sigma clock cable. The clock cable alone was more than twice the price of the ER box itself. The ER box got very hot. Yet that ER supplied with impeccable Esoteric/Shunyata timing was no competition against the entry level POE powered Pakedge switch. The 1's and the 0's were the same, the Pakedge did not have the advantage of Esoteric timing, yet it sounded better. So there is something else at play here, more than the 1's and 0's and the timing.

Originally Posted by u-sound

the problem, whatever brand, the bundle is expensive. if it is out of budget, better skip it and play files.

maybe the best switch today is the nordost. i havent heard it as it wasnt available then.
the other good ones are well known, gold note, melco, innuos. some used them in combination.

i went with 2 innuos in series, both with a set of wilson pedestal, shunyata omega ethernet and delta2 powercords. doesnt mean at all that this is the way to go.
however, the pedestals are paramount.

Thank you.

There are many excellent Ethernet cables on the market. The Ethernet cable you prefer is highly subjective and system dependent. Ask five audiophiles what their favorite Ethernet cable is and you’re likely to get five different answers. One prominent member on this forum, who has auditioned many different makes and models, prefers a certain cable that I own an entire loom of and really don’t care for that much. Try to audition as many different cables as you can and take advantage of loaner programs. Some Ethernet cables employ noise reduction components. If your network has noise issues, these cables will offer significant improvement. If you’ve already tackled your network noise issues, perhaps not so much. Happy hunting!

Ken

Originally Posted by Alpinist

There are many excellent Ethernet cables on the market. The Ethernet cable you prefer is highly subjective and system dependent. Ask five audiophiles what their favorite Ethernet cable is and you’re likely to get five different answers. One prominent member on this forum, who has auditioned many different makes and models, prefers a certain cable that I own an entire loom of and really don’t care for that much. Try to audition as many different cables as you can and take advantage of loaner programs. Some Ethernet cables employ noise reduction components. If your network has noise issues, these cables will offer significant improvement. If you’ve already tackled your network noise issues, perhaps not so much. Happy hunting!

Ken

Hey Ken - truer words have never been spoken!

I love how we all hear gear, speakers and especially cables differently. Finding the right mix for us individually it what I think makes this so much fun!

I think sometimes I enjoy the search more than the destination when it comes to gear hunting.

Originally Posted by JCS123

The only issue there is that I also listen to CD's once in a while, so the preamp is most convenient.

My Wadia 830 can be hooked up directly to the amps, but it would be a hassle going behind the rack to swap cables every time I wanted to play a CD. I guess I have to decide whether that is an inconvenience that I can put up with for the 5% or so of the time that I spend playing CD's.

Fascinating thread!

Why not just rip the CDs? Hard to imagine the sound of a spinning disc will be different/better enough to warrant going through that extra trouble. And, you could sell the Wadia.

Originally Posted by jmusica

Why not just rip the CDs? Hard to imagine the sound of a spinning disc will be different/better enough to warrant going through that extra trouble. And, you could sell the Wadia.

I was going to add something similar - that at some point I reach a line where I know something may sound a bit better, but if the inconvenience is too great I go with the easier path.

I will say I tried an experiment recently with my new Rose 150B:

I ripped songs to the external Samsung (Rose recommended one) HD attached to the Rose using an Apple CD ripper;
I did the same except with the Rose branded CD ripper/player ripping to the external HD;
I played the songs through the CD player on the external Rose CD ripper/player.

My biggest surprise? The songs actually sounded better when ripped via the Rose cd ripper than with the Apple!

Playing it through the CD player on the Rose sounded the best, but ripped via Rose ripper was still very good and the difference was more noticeable on some music than other.

I actually just ordered the same Samsung HD as the external one I plugged into the Rose except an internal one to add into the internal HD bay on the Rose. I'm going to see if there is a difference in sound between the Samsung external HD playing ripped music ripped via the Rose vs same songs ripped via Rose onto the internal Samsung HD.

Originally Posted by JCS123

Good points, but I don't have a server or storage component in the chain. If I go that route in the future, it'll most likely be the LUMIN L1.

Have you compared playing a CD to streaming (same album on Qobuz, etc)? Maybe that’s close enough to simplify things. I find Qobuz close, the same, or better (than ripped CDs) depending on the album (and probably the CD I ripped from).

OK guys - got some additional products/brands on order from what I mentioned above. Hope to have received it all, get some burn in done before listening and have some updates by next weekend!

Originally Posted by jmusica

Why not just rip the CDs? Hard to imagine the sound of a spinning disc will be different/better enough to warrant going through that extra trouble..

The spinning disc sounds better than the ripped CD. Not by much, but it is better. Performance/cost is always a trade-off. In my case I opted for the Esoteric Grandioso disc spinner with master clock generator. A $60K+ investment to spin a CD might be a little bit silly to go a little bit better. Or you might be happy to pocket the money and end up with something not quite as good. Never-the-less, still a thoroughly enjoyable listening experience with an optimized network audio system.

Originally Posted by brodricj

The spinning disc sounds better than the ripped CD. Not by much, but it is better.

This has been my experience also. It is also more noticeable on some types of music than other (on my system).

I'm excited to see of my experimenting with ethernet audio can help minimize that gap. My framework will be to add a bit of gear, but not too much gear and to not have a limitless budget on it.

Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute

I'm excited to see of my experimenting with ethernet audio can help minimize that gap. My framework will be to add a bit of gear, but not too much gear and to not have a limitless budget on it.

With ethernet audio the best of the best hardware is only going to cost you a third of what the best of the best CD spinner costs.
What's the most expensive network transport? Maybe $15K?
The most expensive LAN cable? Maybe $3K?
The most expensive network switch? perhaps $3K?
What else in the network audio hardware mix can you throw in there to squeak the nth degree of performance?
That's only $21K all up.
And how much is an Esoteric P1X, $50K??
That $21K network setup is going to get you close to P1X performance.

Originally Posted by brodricj

The spinning disc sounds better than the ripped CD. Not by much, but it is better. Performance/cost is always a trade-off. In my case I opted for the Esoteric Grandioso disc spinner with master clock generator. A $60K+ investment to spin a CD might be a little bit silly to go a little bit better. Or you might be happy to pocket the money and end up with something not quite as good. Never-the-less, still a thoroughly enjoyable listening experience with an optimized network audio system.

So how much better does your disc spinner sound than streaming MP3 files?

I could listen to Spotify all night and not be tempted to turn on my disc spinner.

Originally Posted by brodricj

I could listen to Spotify all night and not be tempted to turn on my disc spinner.

Because of convenience or SQ?

The totality of the experience.

Originally Posted by Porsche

i fought streaming for a long time, but my burmester 151mk2 is mighty hard to beat for the money

I agree about fighting streaming for awhile. I finally gave in as having thousands of songs at my fingertips, many being versions I can't readily buy, and not have to get up off the couch to change songs is a fantastic convenience.

Plus, the display and user interface on the Rose is simply awesome.

Originally Posted by Puma Cat

Can you turn off the display on the Rose while listening? You can do this on the Aurender N20, and turning it off results in an improvement in audio quality.

Sure can. Same with the meters on the Luxman. And agreed you can notice a sound difference.

I keep them both off during critical listening and I keep them on for casual listening.

The other thing I do is keep the Luxman on Line Straight to bypass all tone and balance controls. That makes a bigger sound difference than the display.

So I've received a variety of ethernet cables and filters and will be doing a comparison over the coming weeks. Am currently burning them all in equally.