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  1. #151
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Wow, those Goebel are some impressive looking cables. I'd be interested in learning more. Company website is equally impressive. Wondering how these can be tried/bought in the US.
    Lumin X1 > Boulder 1161 > Scansonic MB3.5 B

    Interconnects: HiDiamond Genesis Big XLR
    Speaker Cable: Zu IBIS
    Ethernet: SOtM sNH-10G switch / Wireworld Platinum Starlight 8 Ethernet (Lumin L1) / Owens Corning OS2 SM Fiber (Lumin X1)
    Power Conditioning: Ayre L-5xe Line Filter (amp, X1) / Keces P3 LPS w/ Uptone Audio Saphire DC cable (L1) / SOtM sPS-500 (switch)
    Power Cables: Shunyata, Transparent
    Music Source: Lumin L1 NAS / Qobuz / Roon

    Tweaks: Artesania Audio damper | Shakti Air | Shakti Onlines | Synergistic Big MIG footers | Alto-extremo Lyd footers | Ginko Cloud 15 (X1) | IsoAcoustics Gaia II

  2. #152
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    In the United States they are imported by Bending Wave USA
    Francisco

    Aries Cerat Kassandra Ref. MKII / Taiko Extreme Server / Gryphon Essence Preamplifier and Stereo Amplifier / Rockport Atria I / REL S-812 (2) / GŲbel XLR (2), GŲbel Ethernet and USB Cables / Audio Quest Diamond Ethernet Cable / MIT Magnum MA Speakers Cables / Shunyata Everest 8000 / Shunyata Omega XC (1), Sigma NR V2 (4) and Alfa NR V1 (2) / Melco S-100 Pink Faun OCXO Upgraded / Paul Hynes SR7T Double Rail / Farad Super3 / Doepke DFS-2 40A / GigaWatt G-C16A 2P / Fuse module AHP 4Gi / Center Stage2 0.8, 1.0 and 1.5

  3. #153
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Very interesting info in this thread as someone starting to look at ethernet cables and people perspectives on what does and does not make a difference.

    The AQ Diamonds keep coming up as real winners!
    My system: Klipsch Cornwall IV's; Klipsch La Scala's AL5; Luxman L-509x; Rose 150b; Black Cat Cables; Pass Labs INT-60

  4. #154
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    Very interesting info in this thread as someone starting to look at ethernet cables and people perspectives on what does and does not make a difference.

    The AQ Diamonds keep coming up as real winners!
    My entire network is comprised of AudioQuest Diamond Ethernet Cables. They are the most neutral and transparent digital cables I have ever listened to. I consider them the biggest reason why I have never switched over from the MSB Renderer V2 to the Pro USB digital input module. Iíve never listened to a USB cable that was close to being as neutral or transparent as these cables.

    Ken
    "No summit worth climbing is easily attained."
    --------------------------------------------
    Source: MSB Select II DAC with Two Mono Powerbases and Femto 33 Clock; Renderer V2 Digital Input Module and Roon Nucleus Plus; MSB UMT V Signature Transport
    Amps: Vandersteen M7-HPA Mono Amps; MSB M204 Mono Amps
    Speakers: Vandersteen Model 7 Mk2
    Power: Two AudioQuest Niagara 5000ís with AudioQuest Dragon and Hurricane Power Cords

  5. #155

    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    Very interesting info in this thread as someone starting to look at ethernet cables and people perspectives on what does and does not make a difference.

    The AQ Diamonds keep coming up as real winners!
    You resuscitated a thread that had been dead for over three years. There is a lot of new data/reviews about ethernet cables published since that time. You might want to do a bit more research before reaching a final decision.

  6. #156
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    You resuscitated a thread that had been dead for over three years. There is a lot of new data/reviews about ethernet cables published since that time. You might want to do a bit more research before reaching a final decision.
    Certainly good advice. I've read a lot of current threads/posts that still love the Diamonds.

    Thankfully no final decisions are even being close to being made at this point.
    My system: Klipsch Cornwall IV's; Klipsch La Scala's AL5; Luxman L-509x; Rose 150b; Black Cat Cables; Pass Labs INT-60

  7. #157
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Smith View Post
    If I had, would you be convinced?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    If you found a difference and had a preference, then of course not. I would attack your test methodology, test conditions, choice of source material, HiFi system (not resolving enough), your choice of Bourbon, your parentage, and the parentage of your children.

    Because your results do not fit my worldview, so they must be rejected.
    Tom

    Audio:
    Amati Futura Mains
    Amati Homage VOX Center,
    Proac Response 1sc Rears,
    Three MC2301's for L,C,R
    MC 602 for the rears
    C 1100, MX 151, MCD 1100, MR 77
    Nottingham Dais with Sumiko Palo Santos Presentation
    SurfacePro 3, JRiver, WW Starlight Platinum USB, Schiit Yggdrasil, Benchmark DAC3 HGC

    Video:
    MX 151, OppO BDP-95, JVC RS-500 DILA projector, 106" diagonal Stewart Luxus Screenwall Deluxe with Studiotek 130 G3 material.

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  8. #158
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    All I can say is that in my system, the 1.0 M Wireworld Starlight Series 8 (Thanks for the recommendation and for selling it to me, Mike!) from the cheap Netgear GS105NA switch (Thanks for the recommendation, Peter!) to the Lumin T2 sounds better than the long Cat 6a Blue Jeans cable directly from the router to the T2.

    Router -> 25' BJ Cat 6a -> Lumin T2 - Not bad.
    Router -> 25' BJ Cat 6a -> Netgear GS105NA -> WW Starlight 8 -> Lumin T2 - Much Better.

    The reason for the long run is that I have it routed around a wall and through the hallway from the computer room to the adjacent living room. (I know, I know...)

    Mike suggested that I try a Starlight 8 from router to switch, which I hope to do when the budget allows for it. I have just been hesitant to punch holes in the wall so I can shorten the length to around 8-9 feet from room to room.

  9. #159
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    For bulk cables, it's easy just stick with Belden (they are responsible for many of the engineering advances).

  10. #160
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by JCS123 View Post
    The reason for the long run is that I have it routed around a wall and through the hallway from the computer room to the adjacent living room. (I know, I know...)

    Mike suggested that I try a Starlight 8 from router to switch, which I hope to do when the budget allows for it. I have just been hesitant to punch holes in the wall so I can shorten the length to around 8-9 feet from room to room.
    Iíll suggest a variation on Mikeís recommendation. A short, decent ethernet cable from router to a fiber transceiver, fiber cable to a transceiver near your Lumin, then a short very good ethernet cable from the transceiver to Lumin.

    Router > .5 or 1m ethernet > fiber transceiver > fiber cable > 2nd fiber transceiver > .5 or 1m ethernet > Lumin

    Alternatively you could buy an ethernet switch with a port for a fiber transceiver, then run fiber from there to near your Lumin then ethernet into your Lumin.
    Lumin X1 > Boulder 1161 > Scansonic MB3.5 B

    Interconnects: HiDiamond Genesis Big XLR
    Speaker Cable: Zu IBIS
    Ethernet: SOtM sNH-10G switch / Wireworld Platinum Starlight 8 Ethernet (Lumin L1) / Owens Corning OS2 SM Fiber (Lumin X1)
    Power Conditioning: Ayre L-5xe Line Filter (amp, X1) / Keces P3 LPS w/ Uptone Audio Saphire DC cable (L1) / SOtM sPS-500 (switch)
    Power Cables: Shunyata, Transparent
    Music Source: Lumin L1 NAS / Qobuz / Roon

    Tweaks: Artesania Audio damper | Shakti Air | Shakti Onlines | Synergistic Big MIG footers | Alto-extremo Lyd footers | Ginko Cloud 15 (X1) | IsoAcoustics Gaia II

  11. #161
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by jmusica View Post
    Iíll suggest a variation on Mikeís recommendation. A short, decent ethernet cable from router to a fiber transceiver, fiber cable to a transceiver near your Lumin, then a short very good ethernet cable from the transceiver to Lumin.

    Router > .5 or 1m ethernet > fiber transceiver > fiber cable > 2nd fiber transceiver > .5 or 1m ethernet > Lumin

    Alternatively you could buy an ethernet switch with a port for a fiber transceiver, then run fiber from there to near your Lumin then ethernet into your Lumin.
    I wanted to do this and I agree it looks like a great option. However I had 3 people look at my house and with all the 90 degree bends the in-wall cable would need to do they all said it was going to be a big hassle to do.
    My system: Klipsch Cornwall IV's; Klipsch La Scala's AL5; Luxman L-509x; Rose 150b; Black Cat Cables; Pass Labs INT-60

  12. #162
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by jmusica View Post
    Iíll suggest a variation on Mikeís recommendation. A short, decent ethernet cable from router to a fiber transceiver, fiber cable to a transceiver near your Lumin, then a short very good ethernet cable from the transceiver to Lumin.

    Router > .5 or 1m ethernet > fiber transceiver > fiber cable > 2nd fiber transceiver > .5 or 1m ethernet > Lumin

    Alternatively you could buy an ethernet switch with a port for a fiber transceiver, then run fiber from there to near your Lumin then ethernet into your Lumin.
    Now we're getting into some REAL unfamiliar territory.

    There's no getting around the length of cable needed from router to switch (or directly to the LUMIN for that matter). If I put holes in the wall to go directly from computer room to audio room (switch or LUMIN), I'm looking at a minimum of 8'.

    So my question: Will I get appreciably better sound with Router -> Ethernet switch with port -> Ethernet cable -> Fiber transceiver #1 -> Fiber cable -> Fiber transceiver #2 - Ethernet cable -> LUMIN than I would with Ethernet all the way, with one switch in the chain? (I have other electronics in the main room fed by Ethernet, thus the need for the switch.) And am I reading correctly that the fiber cable would be the longer run (8 or 9 feet) in the chain?

    Looking very briefly, it appears that fiber cables can be had pretty cheap, and transceivers vary quite a bit in price. I can get a 3.0 M Starlight 8 from Mike for $330 and be done with it, or I can think about an ethernet switch with port for fiber, 2 transceivers, fiber cable and an additional short Ethernet cable. Just wondering if the sound would be noticeably better than Starlight 8 from router to LUMIN with the one unmanaged switch in the chain. (This is coming from someone with less than a minute's experience with fiber in a system, and that was a few years ago.)

    Any guidelines on checking out transceivers, a switch with fiber port, fiber cable and ethernet cable? And would that route noticeably outperform the Ethernet set-up and be in the same ballpark price-wise ($330 outlay for the Ethernet scenario from where I'm at today)?

    Thanks in advance for any insight.

  13. #163
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by JCS123 View Post
    Now we're getting into some REAL unfamiliar territory.

    There's no getting around the length of cable needed from router to switch (or directly to the LUMIN for that matter). If I put holes in the wall to go directly from computer room to audio room (switch or LUMIN), I'm looking at a minimum of 8'.

    So my question: Will I get appreciably better sound with Router -> Ethernet switch with port -> Ethernet cable -> Fiber transceiver #1 -> Fiber cable -> Fiber transceiver #2 - Ethernet cable -> LUMIN than I would with Ethernet all the way, with one switch in the chain? (I have other electronics in the main room fed by Ethernet, thus the need for the switch.) And am I reading correctly that the fiber cable would be the longer run (8 or 9 feet) in the chain?

    Looking very briefly, it appears that fiber cables can be had pretty cheap, and transceivers vary quite a bit in price. I can get a 3.0 M Starlight 8 from Mike for $330 and be done with it, or I can think about an ethernet switch with port for fiber, 2 transceivers, fiber cable and an additional short Ethernet cable. Just wondering if the sound would be noticeably better than Starlight 8 from router to LUMIN with the one unmanaged switch in the chain. (This is coming from someone with less than a minute's experience with fiber in a system, and that was a few years ago.)

    Any guidelines on checking out transceivers, a switch with fiber port, fiber cable and ethernet cable? And would that route noticeably outperform the Ethernet set-up and be in the same ballpark price-wise ($330 outlay for the Ethernet scenario from where I'm at today)?

    Thanks in advance for any insight.
    When going through this recently myself and not understanding the difference between multimode and single mode and which cable spec, I found this helpful:

    Single Mode vs Multimode Fiber Cable Guide | FS Community
    My system: Klipsch Cornwall IV's; Klipsch La Scala's AL5; Luxman L-509x; Rose 150b; Black Cat Cables; Pass Labs INT-60

  14. #164
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Just as a matter of input

    I use both AQ Diamonds and Shunyata Sigmas in my system .

    They all sound different

    That said, I also use optical isolation . I have two Ediscreation Fibre Box IIís. These are a one box solution with optical isolation , a linear power supply and a very good clock.

    Iím my case the system looks like this

    Router >
    Wireworld starlight ethernet 15meters >
    Ediscreation Fibre Box II >
    AQ Diamond ethernet 2 metres >
    Ediscreation Silent switch >
    AQ Diamond Ethernet 2 meters >
    Innuos Zenith MII >
    AQ Diamond .75 metre >
    Ediscreation Fibre Box II >
    Shunyata Sigma ethernet 2 metres >
    Auralic Aries G2.1/Vega G2.1

    Point being all this stuff has contributed to the overall sonics , my streaming is now as good as red book off the Innuos . Is any one piece some revelatory masterpiece? No not at all , but it all incrementally improves . The Ediscreation Fibre Box optical isolation is the significant improvement here. I literally would not run the system without them

    My two cents

  15. #165
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by JCS123 View Post
    Now we're getting into some REAL unfamiliar territory.
    I've explored this territory thoroughly, in-depth and detail in 2019.

    Quote Originally Posted by JCS123 View Post
    So my question: Will I get appreciably better sound with Router -> Ethernet switch with port -> Ethernet cable -> Fiber transceiver #1 -> Fiber cable -> Fiber transceiver #2 - Ethernet cable -> LUMIN than I would with Ethernet all the way, with one switch in the chain?
    YES.

    Would you like 1) the brief reason why or 2*) the "MSc. engineering graduate student-level" reason why?

    'Cause I can provide both. Just let me know. Cheers.

    *-No. 2 will involve reading highly technical white papers on things like low-and high-source impedance leakage current, threshold jitter, and phase noise...

  16. #166
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    When going through this recently myself and not understanding the difference between multimode and single mode and which cable spec, I found this helpful:

    Single Mode vs Multimode Fiber Cable Guide | FS Community
    You don't need multi-mode for home audio applications. I've been using a single-mode LC/LC optical-fiber set-up for over 3 years now....I can tell you guys exactly how to do this effectively.

  17. #167
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by jmusica View Post
    Iíll suggest a variation on Mikeís recommendation. A short, decent ethernet cable from router to a fiber transceiver, fiber cable to a transceiver near your Lumin, then a short very good ethernet cable from the transceiver to Lumin.

    Router > .5 or 1m ethernet > fiber transceiver > fiber cable > 2nd fiber transceiver > .5 or 1m ethernet > Lumin

    Alternatively you could buy an ethernet switch with a port for a fiber transceiver, then run fiber from there to near your Lumin then ethernet into your Lumin.
    That's close, J, but it's very important the Ethernet cables to be a minimum of 1.5M in length, not shorter than that. Even if the actual run is shorter than that. This is to minimize the impact of reflections on the cable that cause timing errors. Read this post, #98 on this thread for the background on this:
    Shunyata Launches - ALTAIRA GROUNDING SYSTEM!!

    You can also read this post, #100, for additional theoretical background, if you like.
    Shunyata Launches - ALTAIRA GROUNDING SYSTEM!!

  18. #168
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    Certainly good advice. I've read a lot of current threads/posts that still love the Diamonds.

    Thankfully no final decisions are even being close to being made at this point.
    I did a comprehensive, professional-level competitive benchmarking (I used to do this kind of work professionally) on Ethernet cables back in 2019 when I was implementing my Ethernet/optical streaming set-up. This competitive benchmarking included renting in several models from various manufacturers, and purchasing others. Ethernet cable models included Wireworld Starlight Cat 8, Belden Cat 6, Supra Cat 8, Audioquest Cinnamon, Vodka, and Diamond, and Shunyata Venom, Alpha, and Sigma Ethernet cables.

    Bottom-line from my analysis: Even the "entry-level" Shunyata Venom Ethernet flat smoked all of the other brands' Ethernet cables. I remember one night when I swapped out an AQ Vodka cable for the Venom and the Venom was so superior that I literally laughed out loud. And, don't get me wrong, the AQ Vodka is a good-sounding Ethernet cable. But, it's simply not in the same league as the Venom.

    And that cable has now been surpassed by the new Venom-X Ethernet cable. And above that, Alpha and Sigma Ethernet cables are on another level altogether. The Alpha Ethernet has a single "Common-mode noise"* (aka CMode) in-line filter and the Sigma Ethernet cable has two CMode noise filters. These CMode filters bring a considerable improvement to the performance of Ethernet cables and virtually none of the other manufacturers use a CMode filter on their Ethernet cables.

    I remember one night when my audio buddy Gregory was over, and I was doing the Ethernet cable comparison demo for him, and I swapped out an AQ (Diamond, IIRC...) cable for the Shunyata Alpha, and he blurted out, "Who took the kink out of the hose?!?"

    Then, there's the Omega Ethernet cable with two Hybrid CMode/TAP devices...🤯

    My recommendations:
    If you want the least expensive, good-sounding Ethernet cable, get the Supra Cat 8. If you want a superb-performing and sounding Ethernet cable for a great price, I would recommend Shunyata Venom-X as a starting point. If you can afford AQ Diamond Ethernet for $2K/1.5M, trust me on this, get the Shunyata Sigma instead, same length for the same price. it's not even close. I did a LOT of work researching this topic first-hand when I set up my remote-server-based streaming set-up.

    Also, see my post above to JMusica, if you're going to buy an audio quality Ethernet cable, the length of the Ethernet cable, regardless of which brand you go with, should be no shorter than 1.5M.

    *ĖRef for common-mode noise: https://www.murata.com/~/media/webre...ow/26to30.ashx

  19. #169
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedskater View Post
    For bulk cables, it's easy just stick with Belden (they are responsible for many of the engineering advances).
    Supra Cat 8 is better "bulk cable" for audio streaming. Sounds better. Belden is really bright and fatiguing...

  20. #170
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    I've explored this territory thoroughly, in-depth and detail in 2019.



    YES.

    Would you like 1) the brief reason why or 2*) the "MSc. engineering graduate student-level" reason why?

    'Cause I can provide both. Just let me know. Cheers.

    *-No. 2 will involve reading highly technical white papers on things like low-and high-source impedance leakage current, threshold jitter, and phase noise...
    I choose Door #1. Not really looking for all of the technical data, more for guidance from anyone who has replaced an all-ethernet chain from router to network player (in m y case the LUMIN T2) with the above set-up, how much of an investment it would be, would it be a noticeable improvement in sound quality, and would the improvement in SQ be worth the investment. Yes - opinions are subjective, but that's what I visit the forums for. Guidance from people with experience to help me decide what to audition, no more no less.

    Frankly, I am not in the market for any of the expensive cables, some of which would cost more than my components. It will be a stretch getting two short ethernet cables of good quality for both ends of the chain.

    Any recommendations for a good optical transceiver?

    Thanks already for your help.

  21. #171

    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    I did a comprehensive, professional-level competitive benchmarking (I used to do this kind of work professionally) on Ethernet cables back in 2019 when I was implementing my Ethernet/optical streaming set-up. This competitive benchmarking included renting in several models from various manufacturers, and purchasing others. Ethernet cable models included Wireworld Starlight Cat 8, Belden Cat 6, Supra Cat 8, Audioquest Cinnamon, Vodka, and Diamond, and Shunyata Venom, Alpha, and Sigma Ethernet cables.

    Bottom-line from my analysis: Even the "entry-level" Shunyata Venom Ethernet flat smoked all of the other brands' Ethernet cables. I remember one night when I swapped out an AQ Vodka cable for the Venom and the Venom was so superior that I literally laughed out loud. And, don't get me wrong, the AQ Vodka is a good-sounding Ethernet cable. But, it's simply not in the same league as the Venom.

    And that cable has now been surpassed by the new Venom-X Ethernet cable. And above that, Alpha and Sigma Ethernet cables are on another level altogether. The Alpha Ethernet has a single "Common-mode noise"* (aka CMode) in-line filter and the Sigma Ethernet cable has two CMode noise filters. These CMode filters bring a considerable improvement to the performance of Ethernet cables and virtually none of the other manufacturers use a CMode filter on their Ethernet cables.

    I remember one night when my audio buddy Gregory was over, and I was doing the Ethernet cable comparison demo for him, and I swapped out an AQ (Diamond, IIRC...) cable for the Shunyata Alpha, and he blurted out, "Who took the kink out of the hose?!?"

    Then, there's the Omega Ethernet cable with two Hybrid CMode/TAP devices...🤯

    My recommendations:
    If you want the least expensive, good-sounding Ethernet cable, get the Supra Cat 8. If you want a superb-performing and sounding Ethernet cable for a great price, I would recommend Shunyata Venom-X as a starting point. If you can afford AQ Diamond Ethernet for $2K/1.5M, trust me on this, get the Shunyata Sigma instead, same length for the same price. it's not even close. I did a LOT of work researching this topic first-hand when I set up my remote-server-based streaming set-up.

    Also, see my post above to JMusica, if you're going to buy an audio quality Ethernet cable, the length of the Ethernet cable, regardless of which brand you go with, should be no shorter than 1.5M.

    *ĖRef for common-mode noise: https://www.murata.com/~/media/webre...ow/26to30.ashx
    Please explain how "competitive benchmarking" which is a business strategy is applicable to you using your ears with your stereo system to identify what ethernet cables you think sound best in your system. How do you account for your supreme bias towards all things Shunyata in your "competitive benchmarking" when ranking your choice of cables? What KPIs did you use during your "competitive benchmarking"?
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

    Reviewer for Positive Feedback

  22. #172
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    I did a comprehensive, professional-level competitive benchmarking (I used to do this kind of work professionally) on Ethernet cables back in 2019 when I was implementing my Ethernet/optical streaming set-up. This competitive benchmarking included renting in several models from various manufacturers, and purchasing others. Ethernet cable models included Wireworld Starlight Cat 8, Belden Cat 6, Supra Cat 8, Audioquest Cinnamon, Vodka, and Diamond, and Shunyata Venom, Alpha, and Sigma Ethernet cables.

    Bottom-line from my analysis: Even the "entry-level" Shunyata Venom Ethernet flat smoked all of the other brands' Ethernet cables. I remember one night when I swapped out an AQ Vodka cable for the Venom and the Venom was so superior that I literally laughed out loud. And, don't get me wrong, the AQ Vodka is a good-sounding Ethernet cable. But, it's simply not in the same league as the Venom.

    And that cable has now been surpassed by the new Venom-X Ethernet cable. And above that, Alpha and Sigma Ethernet cables are on another level altogether. The Alpha Ethernet has a single "Common-mode noise"* (aka CMode) in-line filter and the Sigma Ethernet cable has two CMode noise filters. These CMode filters bring a considerable improvement to the performance of Ethernet cables and virtually none of the other manufacturers use a CMode filter on their Ethernet cables.

    I remember one night when my audio buddy Gregory was over, and I was doing the Ethernet cable comparison demo for him, and I swapped out an AQ (Diamond, IIRC...) cable for the Shunyata Alpha, and he blurted out, "Who took the kink out of the hose?!?"

    Then, there's the Omega Ethernet cable with two Hybrid CMode/TAP devices...🤯

    My recommendations:
    If you want the least expensive, good-sounding Ethernet cable, get the Supra Cat 8. If you want a superb-performing and sounding Ethernet cable for a great price, I would recommend Shunyata Venom-X as a starting point. If you can afford AQ Diamond Ethernet for $2K/1.5M, trust me on this, get the Shunyata Sigma instead, same length for the same price. it's not even close. I did a LOT of work researching this topic first-hand when I set up my remote-server-based streaming set-up.

    Also, see my post above to JMusica, if you're going to buy an audio quality Ethernet cable, the length of the Ethernet cable, regardless of which brand you go with, should be no shorter than 1.5M.

    *ĖRef for common-mode noise: https://www.murata.com/~/media/webre...ow/26to30.ashx
    Thank you for sharing your experience and results. Greatly appreciated!

    I do have a Supra 8 on order not because I think it's going to be my favorite cable ever, but because I do have several different ones at different price points on order to do some fun trial and error.

    Clearly your professional experience helped and shows in the benchmarking. Well done!

    PS. Be prepared for the professional Snark Monsters to come after you. LOL. But normal people do appreciate you sharing your findings.
    My system: Klipsch Cornwall IV's; Klipsch La Scala's AL5; Luxman L-509x; Rose 150b; Black Cat Cables; Pass Labs INT-60

  23. #173
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by JCS123 View Post
    I choose Door #1. Not really looking for all of the technical data, more for guidance from anyone who has replaced an all-ethernet chain from router to network player (in my case the LUMIN T2) with the above set-up, how much of an investment it would be, would it be a noticeable improvement in sound quality, and would the improvement in SQ be worth the investment. Yes - opinions are subjective, but that's what I visit the forums for. Guidance from people with experience to help me decide what to audition, no more no less.

    Frankly, I am not in the market for any of the expensive cables, some of which would cost more than my components. It will be a stretch getting two short ethernet cables of good quality for both ends of the chain.

    Any recommendations for a good optical transceiver?

    Thanks already for your help.
    The brief answer is that installing a run of optical fiber will make a noticeable improvement audio quality because optical will not pass a specific class of a noise component, called high-source impedance leakage current (current requires a "metal" cable for conduction). Optical will not pass "current" because it's passing photons as the signal, instead.

    High-source impedance leakage current is one of the bad actors in this play, and is usally created by the switch-mode power supplies (SMPS) that are used as power supplles for almost all Ethernet routers, switches and fiber media convertors (FMCs), etc. The impact of high-source impedance leakage current is that it causes a specific form of jitter known as threshold jitter* and this class of jitter impacts timing, which are brains are very sensitive to down in the picosecond range when listening to music (and why good DACs and streamers, etc, require femtoclocks).

    The other bad actor is the common-mode noise referred to above.

    With respect to your setup, an effective path is: Music server->good Ethernet->Ethernet router or switch->better Ethernet->FMC->fiber (usually LC/LC single-mode)->FMC->Best Ethernet cable->your Lumin T2

    If it's in your budget, I'd recommend the Venom or Venom-X Ethernet cable at the downstream (destination) end. The destination end is the most impactful end. If you have the budget for another quality Ethernet cable, the next most important position is from the router to the FMC at the upstream end, and 3) from the music server to the router.

    You want to use the highest-quality networking components closest to your Lumin T2 at the destination end.

    A key component is that the power supplies for the Ethernet switch and FMCs, etc. need to be clean, low-noise linear power supplies. Good news is that you can get a good-quality linear power supply from Jameco Electronics for the Ethernet switches and FMCs for about $15/each.

    AC/DC Linear Power Supplies Regulated | Jameco Electronics

    You can start with "generic" FMC's, e.g TP/Link, etc., just be sure to use one with an LC/LC single-mode optical transceiver port. Better FMC subsystems are are availabe in the SOtM sNH-10G High-End Audio Ethernet switch, and the Sonore OpticalModule Deluxe. The most important FMC is the one at the destination end, and it needs to be powered by a good LPS. I've heard good things about the Teddy Pardo power supply, and I would imagine the SOtM sPS-500 is a good one, as well. But if you're budget-constrained, you can use the Jameco Reliapro wall-wart style LPS's.

    SOtM sNH-10G High-End Audio SwitchsNH-10G High-End Audio Switch Hub Ė Crux Audio USA

    Sonore OpticalModule Deluxe: Sonore - OpticalModule Deluxe

    One of the best optical transceivers is the Finisar FTLF8519P3BNL 1000BASE-SX 2.125Gb/s 850nm LC Connector SFP Transceiver. You can get 'em at Amazon.

    If you got the SOtM Ethernet switch AND the OpticalModule Deluxe(OM), you could try either in each position, upstream or downstream, and determine which configuration sounds best. Both of these require quality linear power supplies. Ideally, use SOtM or OM Deluxe in both locations, upstream and downstream.

    Your Lumin T2 is an excellent streamer/DAC, so you're all set there.

    As for the improvements, every improvement made in the path above will make the presentation sound better "across the board": more natural, accurate, and involving, with improved clarity, transparency, resolution and dynamics, and notably less hash, grit, grain, and grunge. The bass and lower octaves power and definition will improve and the highs will sound more extended and natural. Instrumental and vocal tone and timbre will be more accurate, natural, and articulated. You should be able to hear the "decay" of notes trailing off in the recording venue/space.

    *-You should at least read this white paper by professional networking and UpTone and Sonore engineer, John Swenson:https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/06...f?v=1583429386

    I guess that wasn't so brief, after all. But, this should get you going. Feel free to reach out if you have more questions, either here or via PM. Cheers.

  24. #174
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    Thank you for sharing your experience and results. Greatly appreciated!

    I do have a Supra 8 on order not because I think it's going to be my favorite cable ever, but because I do have several different ones at different price points on order to do some fun trial and error.

    Clearly your professional experience helped and shows in the benchmarking. Well done!

    PS. Be prepared for the professional Snark Monsters to come after you. LOL. But normal people do appreciate you sharing your findings.
    The Supra Cat 8 is quite a good cable for it's price. It has an "energetic and kicky" quality to it that makes it fun. It kinda reminds me of Rega P3 TTs in that regard. Just be sure to use with gear that is not too aggressive or hot on the top end. Belden Cat 6/6A is just yucky; hard and aggressive. The AQ Vodka is a very nice cable, too, especially tonally, but it's "thinner" and more 2-dimensional sounding compared to Venom. The WW Starlight Cat 8 is very transparent and clean, but too bright and kinda thin-sounding in highly-resolving systems.

    I'll be interested in your findings from your experiments. BTW, you can "rent in" cables from the CableCo. That's what I did for most of the cables in my competitive benchmarking eval.

  25. #175
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    The Supra Cat 8 is quite a good cable for it's price. It has an "energetic and kicky" quality to it that makes it fun. It kinda reminds me of Rega P3 TTs in that regard. Just be sure to use with gear that is not too aggressive or hot on the top end. Belden Cat 6/6A is just yucky; hard and aggressive. The AQ Vodka is a very nice cable, too, especially tonally, but it's "thinner" and more 2-dimensional sounding compared to Venom. The WW Starlight Cat 8 is very transparent and clean, but too bright and kinda thin-sounding in highly-resolving systems.

    I'll be interested in your findings from your experiments. BTW, you can "rent in" cables from the CableCo. That's what I did for most of the cables in my competitive benchmarking eval.
    I'll be happy to share.

    Going to be conducting a variety of tests with everything from which ethernet switch, switch for PS, filters, ethernet cables at different price points and kinds, etc. I think it's going to be a lot of fun and interesting to see what changes what.

    I'm going to try quite a few mix and match combinations of gear.
    My system: Klipsch Cornwall IV's; Klipsch La Scala's AL5; Luxman L-509x; Rose 150b; Black Cat Cables; Pass Labs INT-60

  26. #176
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    I'll be happy to share.

    Going to be conducting a variety of tests with everything from which ethernet switch, switch for PS, filters, ethernet cables at different price points and kinds, etc. I think it's going to be a lot of fun and interesting to see what changes what.

    I'm going to try quite a few mix and match combinations of gear.
    Cool. If I may make a suggestion, just map out a clear evaluation plan beforehand and be systematic. I was a professional scientist my entire career, and part of a good experimental plan is to establish a "datum" as the basis for experiments, and then make systematic changes in reference to the datum "base plan". That way you won't "get lost." This is the best way to be systematic unless you're going to be doing *DOEs (Designs of Experiments) and for those, you need a qualified MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) and a way to accurately & precisely measure a continuous data variable, and a stats program like JMP.

    *ĖI did a DOE back when I integrated my REL sub in to my 2-channel system because decibels is a "continuous data" variable. Results shown from JMP...



    Check out this surface response plot showing the interaction between sub gain and crossover at 155 Hz.


    Results before (blue) and after (green) doing the sub DOE based on the Harman curve as a reference.


    Granted, this is getting pretty deep into continuous variable control factor and response analysis...

  27. #177
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    Cool. If I may make a suggestion, just map out a clear evaluation plan beforehand and be systematic. I was a professional scientist my entire career, and part of a good experimental plan is to establish a "datum" as the basis for experiments, and then make systematic changes in reference to the datum "base plan". That way you won't "get lost." This is the best way to be systematic unless you're going to be doing *DOEs (Designs of Experiments) and for those, you need a qualified MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) and a way to accurately & precisely measure a continuous data variable, and a stats program like JMP.

    *ĖI did a DOE back when I integrated my REL sub in to my 2-channel system because decibels is a "continuous data" variable. Results shown from JMP...



    Check out this surface response plot showing the interaction between sub gain and crossover at 155 Hz.


    Results before (blue) and after (green) doing the sub DOE based on the Harman curve as a reference.


    Granted, this is getting pretty deep into continuous variable control factor and response analysis...
    Much appreciated! I want to do things in small increments so I can understand what if any difference there is vs. too many variables at once. Fair warning - it will not be anywhere near your scientific level! LOL
    My system: Klipsch Cornwall IV's; Klipsch La Scala's AL5; Luxman L-509x; Rose 150b; Black Cat Cables; Pass Labs INT-60

  28. #178
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    The brief answer is that installing a run of optical fiber will make a noticeable improvement audio quality because optical will not pass a specific class of a noise component, called high-source impedance leakage current (current requires a "metal" cable for conduction). Optical will not pass "current" because it's passing photons as the signal, instead.

    High-source impedance leakage current is one of the bad actors in this play, and is usally created by the switch-mode power supplies (SMPS) that are used as power supplles for almost all Ethernet routers, switches and fiber media convertors (FMCs), etc. The impact of high-source impedance leakage current is that it causes a specific form of jitter known as threshold jitter* and this class of jitter impacts timing, which are brains are very sensitive to down in the picosecond range when listening to music (and why good DACs and streamers, etc, require femtoclocks).

    The other bad actor is the common-mode noise referred to above.

    With respect to your setup, an effective path is: Music server->good Ethernet->Ethernet router or switch->better Ethernet->FMC->fiber (usually LC/LC single-mode)->FMC->Best Ethernet cable->your Lumin T2

    If it's in your budget, I'd recommend the Venom or Venom-X Ethernet cable at the downstream (destination) end. The destination end is the most impactful end. If you have the budget for another quality Ethernet cable, the next most important position is from the router to the FMC at the upstream end, and 3) from the music server to the router.

    You want to use the highest-quality networking components closest to your Lumin T2 at the destination end.

    A key component is that the power supplies for the Ethernet switch and FMCs, etc. need to be clean, low-noise linear power supplies. Good news is that you can get a good-quality linear power supply from Jameco Electronics for the Ethernet switches and FMCs for about $15/each.

    AC/DC Linear Power Supplies Regulated | Jameco Electronics

    You can start with "generic" FMC's, e.g TP/Link, etc., just be sure to use one with an LC/LC single-mode optical transceiver port. Better FMC subsystems are are availabe in the SOtM sNH-10G High-End Audio Ethernet switch, and the Sonore OpticalModule Deluxe. The most important FMC is the one at the destination end, and it needs to be powered by a good LPS. I've heard good things about the Teddy Pardo power supply, and I would imagine the SOtM sPS-500 is a good one, as well. But if you're budget-constrained, you can use the Jameco Reliapro wall-wart style LPS's.

    SOtM sNH-10G High-End Audio SwitchsNH-10G High-End Audio Switch Hub Ė Crux Audio USA

    Sonore OpticalModule Deluxe: Sonore - OpticalModule Deluxe

    One of the best optical transceivers is the Finisar FTLF8519P3BNL 1000BASE-SX 2.125Gb/s 850nm LC Connector SFP Transceiver. You can get 'em at Amazon.

    If you got the SOtM Ethernet switch AND the OpticalModule Deluxe(OM), you could try either in each position, upstream or downstream, and determine which configuration sounds best. Both of these require quality linear power supplies. Ideally, use SOtM or OM Deluxe in both locations, upstream and downstream.

    Your Lumin T2 is an excellent streamer/DAC, so you're all set there.

    As for the improvements, every improvement made in the path above will make the presentation sound better "across the board": more natural, accurate, and involving, with improved clarity, transparency, resolution and dynamics, and notably less hash, grit, grain, and grunge. The bass and lower octaves power and definition will improve and the highs will sound more extended and natural. Instrumental and vocal tone and timbre will be more accurate, natural, and articulated. You should be able to hear the "decay" of notes trailing off in the recording venue/space.

    *-You should at least read this white paper by professional networking and UpTone and Sonore engineer, John Swenson:https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/06...f?v=1583429386

    I guess that wasn't so brief, after all. But, this should get you going. Feel free to reach out if you have more questions, either here or via PM. Cheers.
    I appreciate the input, Puma. I see where you say "Music server->good Ethernet->Ethernet router or switch->better Ethernet->FMC->..." Does my going straight from router to ethernet switch suggest another weak link? I don't have a dedicated music server, per se and I don't need to store any music for now. My use case is about 90% streaming Qobuz and the remaining 10% split between internet radio and CD's.

    My final question for you (drifting a bit O/T, my apologies): Have you tried using the Leedh processing in your P1 or other LUMIN models?

    I will be looking more in to this tomorrow or over the weekend, but for now -

    Happy Thanksgiving to everyone!

  29. #179
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    The brief answer is that installing a run of optical fiber will make a noticeable improvement audio qualityÖ.

    With respect to your setup, an effective path is: Music server->good Ethernet->Ethernet router or switch->better Ethernet->FMC->fiber (usually LC/LC single-mode)->FMC->Best Ethernet cable->your Lumin T2
    This is the heart of it. Follow this advice, and Iím very confident youíll hear improvement.

    Also, Puma, agree about the 1.5M ethernet length; I recall reading a lot about that now you said it. Feel like I havenít seen you here for a while, good to see you back if so.

    Single Mode fiber is preferable due to differences in how the light is transmitted. That said, Iíve tried both and didnít hear a difference that was perceptible to me.

    I also agree with LPSís to replace SPS / wall warts everywhere you can, at least starting with the ethernet switch. In addition to the ones mentioned, Keces makes nice ones.

    And itís not a problem you are streaming and have no music server, the rest of the path is as-recommended.

    Iíd still see if I could get an ethernet switch with a built-in slot for a fiber module. Eliminates another device and another power supply in the chain. Meraki makes one thatís not super expensive, although the SOTM one is superior.
    Lumin X1 > Boulder 1161 > Scansonic MB3.5 B

    Interconnects: HiDiamond Genesis Big XLR
    Speaker Cable: Zu IBIS
    Ethernet: SOtM sNH-10G switch / Wireworld Platinum Starlight 8 Ethernet (Lumin L1) / Owens Corning OS2 SM Fiber (Lumin X1)
    Power Conditioning: Ayre L-5xe Line Filter (amp, X1) / Keces P3 LPS w/ Uptone Audio Saphire DC cable (L1) / SOtM sPS-500 (switch)
    Power Cables: Shunyata, Transparent
    Music Source: Lumin L1 NAS / Qobuz / Roon

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  30. #180
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by jmusica View Post
    This is the heart of it. Follow this advice, and Iím very confident youíll hear improvement.

    Also, Puma, agree about the 1.5M ethernet length; I recall reading a lot about that now you said it. Feel like I havenít seen you here for a while, good to see you back if so.

    Single Mode fiber is preferable due to differences in how the light is transmitted. That said, Iíve tried both and didnít hear a difference that was perceptible to me.

    I also agree with LPSís to replace SPS / wall warts everywhere you can, at least starting with the ethernet switch. In addition to the ones mentioned, Keces makes nice ones.

    And itís not a problem you are streaming and have no music server, the rest of the path is as-recommended.

    Iíd still see if I could get an ethernet switch with a built-in slot for a fiber module. Eliminates another device and another power supply in the chain. Meraki makes one thatís not super expensive, although the SOTM one is superior.
    Thanks, jmusica.I'll be doing more research in the coming days. What I am discovering is how cheap optical cables are compared to other digital cables. The ultimate goal for me is the LUMIN P1 or X1 (heck, LUMIN might well have a new flagship or two by the time my finances allow for that kind of investment). Until then, trying to determine whether or not working fiber into the current setup is a worthwhile venture.

  31. #181
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by jmusica View Post
    This is the heart of it. Follow this advice, and Iím very confident youíll hear improvement.

    Also, Puma, agree about the 1.5M ethernet length; I recall reading a lot about that now you said it. Feel like I havenít seen you here for a while, good to see you back if so.

    Single Mode fiber is preferable due to differences in how the light is transmitted. That said, Iíve tried both and didnít hear a difference that was perceptible to me.

    I also agree with LPSís to replace SPS / wall warts everywhere you can, at least starting with the ethernet switch. In addition to the ones mentioned, Keces makes nice ones.

    And itís not a problem you are streaming and have no music server, the rest of the path is as-recommended.

    Iíd still see if I could get an ethernet switch with a built-in slot for a fiber module. Eliminates another device and another power supply in the chain. Meraki makes one thatís not super expensive, although the SOTM one is superior.
    I ordered one of the LPS's Puma recommended and am looking forward to trying it.

    I REALLY wish there were a way to run optical in my house. I'm going to have to wait until the next one for that I think.
    My system: Klipsch Cornwall IV's; Klipsch La Scala's AL5; Luxman L-509x; Rose 150b; Black Cat Cables; Pass Labs INT-60

  32. #182
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by JCS123 View Post
    Thanks, jmusica.I'll be doing more research in the coming days. What I am discovering is how cheap optical cables are compared to other digital cables. The ultimate goal for me is the LUMIN P1 or X1 (heck, LUMIN might well have a new flagship or two by the time my finances allow for that kind of investment). Until then, trying to determine whether or not working fiber into the current setup is a worthwhile venture.
    Oh, you'll find out...👍

  33. #183
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    I ordered one of the LPS's Puma recommended and am looking forward to trying it.

    I REALLY wish there were a way to run optical in my house. I'm going to have to wait until the next one for that I think.
    Not sure why you can't run optical in your house? LC/LC fiber is really thin and really easy to dress and run, much easier than Ethernet. It can be run along or on top of wainscoting using little 3M Command Strip plastic cable clips. And it's cheap, I think I spent something like $80 on a 30 M run of Tripp-Lite.

  34. #184
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    Not sure why you can't run optical in your house? LC/LC fiber is really thin and really easy to dress and run, much easier than Ethernet. It can be run along or on top of wainscoting using little 3M Command Strip plastic cable clips. And it's cheap, I think I spent something like $80 on a 30 M run of Tripp-Lite.
    I had three different line runners look at my house. I'd want to run it from the upstairs modem/router to the downstairs ethernet plug where my system is. Unfortunately all three said with the curves the current cable path runs from the upstairs to the the downstairs they said they wouldn't touch it.

    From the wall jack downstairs to the streamer is about 12'. is it really worth running optic for a 12 foot distance?
    My system: Klipsch Cornwall IV's; Klipsch La Scala's AL5; Luxman L-509x; Rose 150b; Black Cat Cables; Pass Labs INT-60

  35. #185
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post

    From the wall jack downstairs to the streamer is about 12'. is it really worth running optic for a 12 foot distance?
    Yes, absolutely. So, just do that, then. The length is not the key factor, the key factor is that the optical cable will not pass the high-source impedance leakage current and the copper Ethernet will. While it's optimal to place the music server away from the main rack, even if you do a run of optical using the TP Link FMCs and the $15 Jameco Reliapro wall-adapter LPS to power them, you will clearly hear an improvement. If you can use something like an OpticalModule Deluxe at the destination end to convert optical back to Ethernet, that will be even better as the OM Deluxe has a significantly better clock in it than the el-cheapo FMCs.

  36. #186
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    Yes, absolutely. So, just do that, then. The length is not the key factor, the key factor is that the run of optical will not pass the high-source impedance leakage current and the copper Ethernet will.
    Ah! OK. I didn't think it would be worth it for the 12'.

    Should I buy any single mode box and cable off Amazon or is there one you like?

    Really appreciate you help.
    My system: Klipsch Cornwall IV's; Klipsch La Scala's AL5; Luxman L-509x; Rose 150b; Black Cat Cables; Pass Labs INT-60

  37. #187
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    Ah! OK. I didn't think it would be worth it for the 12'.

    Should I buy any single mode box and cable off Amazon or is there one you like?

    Really appreciate you help.
    The length has nothing to do with it, it's the physics that's important. Yep, you can start off using the TP-Link single mode FMCs that use a standard LC/LC SFP cage to get started. Be sure to get the Finisar optical transceiver I linked above and get the Jameco Reliapro wall-wart linear power supplies. IIRC, the TP-link FMCs want a 12V power supply, but check to be sure. The Reliapros are available in a range of voltages. Once you get dialed-in with the optical set-up, you can then look for a switch, e.g. the SOtM sNH-10G I linked to above that has two SFP cages in it, or the OpticalModule to raise things considerably up another level. That's because these audio-quality devices have FPGAs and clocks in them that provide a significant improvement in audio quality, just to name a few of the key components and sub-systems. Until you upgrade these, the two most important devices are the Finisar optical transceiver and the Reliapro power supplies for the FMCs.

  38. #188
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    The length has nothing to do with it, it's the physics that's important. Yep, you can start off using the TP-Link single mode FMCs that use a standard LC/LC SFP cage to get started. Be sure to get the Finisar optical transceiver I linked above and get the Jameco Reliapro wall-wart linear power supplies. IIRC, the TP-link FMCs want a 12V power supply, but check to be sure. The Reliapros are available in a range of voltages. Once you get dialed-in with the optical set-up, you can then look for a switch, e.g. the SOtM sNH-10G I linked to above that has two SFP cages in it, or the OpticalModule to raise things considerably up another level. That's because these audio-quality devices have FPGAs and clocks in them that provide a significant improvement in audio quality, just to name a few of the key components and sub-systems. Until you upgrade these, the two most important devices are the Finisar optical transceiver and the Reliapro power supplies for the FMCs.
    I'll definitely order the upgraded Jameco PS's. Can you take a look and make sure I read your above email info correctly and chose the correct items?

    So would I get 2 of these: https://www.amazon.com/TP-Link-Ether...04&sr=1-2&th=1

    And two of these (I don't like it's a no-name third party seller: https://www.amazon.com/Finisar-FTLF8.../dp/B00AM2ECU0

    Or can I do these to stick with Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/TP-Link-Ether...003CFATL0&th=1https://www.amazon.com/TP-Link-Ether...003CFATL0&th=1

    And this LC to LC cable: https://www.amazon.com/Fiber-Patch-C...41&sr=8-3&th=1https://www.amazon.com/Fiber-Patch-C...41&sr=8-3&th=1
    My system: Klipsch Cornwall IV's; Klipsch La Scala's AL5; Luxman L-509x; Rose 150b; Black Cat Cables; Pass Labs INT-60

  39. #189
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    after all the intense research you did over the last couple of days, you are going to waste your money for senseless crap

  40. #190

    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by u-sound View Post
    after all the intense research you did over the last couple of days, you are going to waste your money for senseless crap
    Intense research or asking questions of someone he thinks is a digital guru and going along with the guru's suggestions?
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

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  41. #191
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    well, the "guru" just skipped thouse items out of his own system

  42. #192

    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by u-sound View Post
    well, the "guru" just skipped thouse items out of his own system
    He did. We are on the same wavelength and it doesn't have high source impedance leakage current riding on it.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

    Reviewer for Positive Feedback

  43. #193
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    I'll definitely order the upgraded Jameco PS's. Can you take a look and make sure I read your above email info correctly and chose the correct items?

    So would I get 2 of these: Amazon.com

    And two of these (I don't like it's a no-name third party seller: Amazon.com

    Or can I do these to stick with Amazon: Amazon.comAmazon.com

    And this LC to LC cable: Amazon.comhttps://www.amazon.com/Fiber-Patch-C...41&sr=8-3&th=1
    Yep, that's the TP-Link FMC to start with. You can also use the TP-Link optical transceiver you linked to above, but the Finisar one sounds better. You should be able to find the Finisar from other sellers, if don't want to go via an Amazon private party seller. I went that way and didn't have any issues. Either will work, as well as the G-Tek ones.

    That LC/LC single-mode fiber should be fine.

  44. #194
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    For single mode LC-LC fiber, try Corning linked from the bottom of this page here:
    LUMIN - Fibre Networking
    Peter Lie
    LUMIN Firmware Lead

  45. #195
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by u-sound View Post
    well, the "guru" just skipped thouse items out of his own system
    I skipped those items out for a number of reasons, most of which was the complexity, and most significantly, the ability to reliaby and predictably connect everything together, and always have it work. For example, one of the specific issues I had was with the SOtM network bridge was often losing connection to the SOtM's Eunhasu Server local set-up page.

    Also, the EtherREGEN (ER) switch is prone, in my experience, to overheating. I think overheating creates tolerance issues with the dimensions of the SFP cage and the connection some optical transceivers can make with the SFP cage contacts. The streaming network will work and when it works, it sounds really good, but my specific set-up, it was really fussy a lot of the time, and prone to not working if my network couldn't connect to the SOtM Eunhasu server, or the USB cable's A-end came very slightly dislodged from the female USB-A port in the SOtM, or the ER's RJ45 port would lose contact with the Omega Ethernet cable's Telegartner connector (which is really heavy), and last but not least, the optical transceiver in the SFP cage of EtherREGEN was prone to not consistently connecting.

    Also, ER runs REALLY hot and I started powering it down when not using it because I was concerned with it ultimately failing (as my UpTone LPS-1.0 did) and also the SFP cage tolerances expanding a bit and losing contact with the optical transceiver. Also, sometimes ER would lose sync with the AfterDark master clock, and I'd have to re-set it, take the clock cable off, re-boot, and then hope ER would sync back up with AfterDark clock. It just all got to be too much.

    Now I just run an LC/LC optical cable from the remote servier into the back of the Lumin P1 and everything works. EVERY time. It's proven to be consideraby simpler, and as such, more reliable and predictable. And sounds considerably better, too. All told, I was able to remove 15 bits of gear from the "digital set-up" by getting the P1.

  46. #196
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by wklie View Post
    For single mode LC-LC fiber, try Corning linked from the bottom of this page here:
    LUMIN - Fibre Networking
    Thank you for sharing. I appreciate it.
    My system: Klipsch Cornwall IV's; Klipsch La Scala's AL5; Luxman L-509x; Rose 150b; Black Cat Cables; Pass Labs INT-60

  47. #197
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    I skipped those items out for a number of reasons, most of which was the complexity, and most significantly, the ability to reliaby and predictably connect everything together, and always have it work. For example, one of the specific issues I had was with the SOtM network bridge was often losing connection to the SOtM's Eunhasu Server local set-up page.

    Also, the EtherREGEN (ER) switch is prone, in my experience, to overheating. I think overheating creates tolerance issues with the dimensions of the SFP cage and the connection some optical transceivers can make with the SFP cage contacts. The streaming network will work and when it works, it sounds really good, but my specific set-up, it was really fussy a lot of the time, and prone to not working if my network couldn't connect to the SOtM Eunhasu server, or the USB cable's A-end came very slightly dislodged from the female USB-A port in the SOtM, or the ER's RJ45 port would lose contact with the Omega Ethernet cable's Telegartner connector (which is really heavy), and last but not least, the optical transceiver in the SFP cage of EtherREGEN was prone to not consistently connecting.

    Also, ER runs REALLY hot and I started powering it down when not using it because I was concerned with it ultimately failing (as my UpTone LPS-1.0 did) and also the SFP cage tolerances expanding a bit and losing contact with the optical transceiver. Also, sometimes ER would lose sync with the AfterDark master clock, and I'd have to re-set it, take the clock cable off, re-boot, and then hope ER would sync back up with AfterDark clock. It just all got to be too much.

    Now I just run an LC/LC optical cable from the remote servier into the back of the Lumin P1 and everything works. EVERY time. It's proven to be consideraby simpler, and as such, more reliable and predictable. And sounds considerably better, too. All told, I was able to remove 15 bits of gear from the "digital set-up" by getting the P1.
    Interesting on the EtherREGEN. I hadn't read about the overheating issues and I was looking at them. I do know they are updating the existing version. I wonder if they will be dealing with that issue.

    Huge thanks for all your help with this. I had considered it a few months back but then decided against it when I didn't think the shorter distance was going to be worth it when I couldn't run it from upstairs.

    I'm looking forward to trying it. It's a super cheap experiment for $150 and then I know for sure if it works or doesn't work for me in my set up. If it doesn't work out, oh well it was a fun experiment. If it does then it sounds like a really cheap win for only $150.

    Oh, and I went with the Finisar.

    Thanks again!
    My system: Klipsch Cornwall IV's; Klipsch La Scala's AL5; Luxman L-509x; Rose 150b; Black Cat Cables; Pass Labs INT-60

  48. #198
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute View Post
    Interesting on the EtherREGEN. I hadn't read about the overheating issues and I was looking at them. I do know they are updating the existing version. I wonder if they will be dealing with that issue.

    Huge thanks for all your help with this. I had considered it a few months back but then decided against it when I didn't think the shorter distance was going to be worth it when I couldn't run it from upstairs.

    I'm looking forward to trying it. It's a super cheap experiment for $150 and then I know for sure if it works or doesn't work for me in my set up. If it doesn't work out, oh well it was a fun experiment. If it does then it sounds like a really cheap win for only $150.

    Oh, and I went with the Finisar.

    Thanks again!
    Don't get me wrong about ER. I think it represented a breakthrough product when it debuted and it really demonstrated the importance of the Ethernet switch for music streaming application in high-end audio, especially when considering the absolute crap "generic" switches that were available from the LAN networking industry at the time of it's debut. The functional requirements for a switch sending a PDF file to a laser printer for printing a hard copy of a document are very, very different than sending a high-res music file from a music server to a network bridge or audio streamer. Back when ER launched, some folks posed questions about how hot it was getting and the reply was "It's fine, don't worry about it."

    And for the most part, that was true. But, as someone who worked as a DFSS Master Black Belt (MBB) for >10 years, I can tell you there are two key Dimensions of Quality that are NEVER discussed by product reviewers and almost always not considered by product developers. Particularly in high-end audio. These dimensions of quality are not features nor functions, and therefore, they are not "sexy", so they NEVER get discussed by audio reviewers, but they are very important in the REAL WORLD, where we all....actually live (not the pages of an audio review).

    These Dimensions of Quality are referred to in Six Sigma and Design for Six Sigma (DFSS) as Design for X*, where X is the "-ilities", and in this case, two of the X's are: 1) Reliability and 2) Durability.

    In my experience, and in the experience of most all other customers, ER worked very well, especially when new. But after years and years of hard use, with ER being left powered on 24/7 for years, in my experience, it's possible for ER to suffer from from reliability failure modesÜ that may compromise it's overall useful product life, aka, it's durability. My hypothesis is that the very sophisticated components, e.g. the FPGA, and/or the Crystek CCHD-575 clock, or other components, may fail from ER running so hot for so long. Part of the basis for this hypothesis is I have owned two other UpTone products, the LPS-1.0 and LPS-1.2 linear power supplies, purchased in 2016 and 2019 respectively, that also run really hot and...both of them have failed. So, of the 3 UpTone products I've bought, 2 of them are dead, and because of the chip shortage, they cannot be repaired. They've also been discontinued from production for the same reasons.

    As a result, the last month or so, when I wasn't using the system, I resorted to unplugging the ER from it's pwer supply so it would not be so hot, all the time. I would plug it in when listening, and unplug it when the system was off.

    The only reason I've been able to use my original Sonore OpticalModule in the remote server room is I bought a third UpTone LPS-1.0 LPS from a friend. I think the reason it has not failed is that the OM only needs 5V, not the 9V that ER needed. Running at almost half the voltage, the OpticalModule does not run as hot, and as a result is more durable. In my opinion, UpTone broke new ground with the development these products, but in my experience, they may have an MTBF of 3-5 years.

    *-some of the other Dimensions of Quality in Design for X are: Serviceability, Repairability, and (Parts) Availability. These quality attributes never get mentioned in product reviews because they are not not sexy and not glamorous. But they are very important in the REAL WORLD. Imagine buying a car with no spare parts availability. Or, a car that cannot be repaired.

    Ü-a failure mode is anything that can go wrong. It is the basis for performing the Failure Modes and Effects Analysis, FMEA, and was developed by NASA during the Space Program in the 1960s.

  49. #199
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by wklie View Post
    For single mode LC-LC fiber, try Corning linked from the bottom of this page here:
    LUMIN - Fibre Networking
    Thanks, Peter, I will look into it. Cheers.

  50. #200
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    Re: Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    In my experience, and in the experience of most all other customers, ER worked very well, especially when new...
    For me, no. I returned the ER to the dealer and reverted back to using a Pakedge SE-5-EP switch. The Pakedge was way better, and a fraction of the price of ER with 10Mhz clock option.
    Speakers: Magico M3,ACC, S-SUB | Electronics: Esoteric Grandioso stack | Amplification: Halcro |
    Analog cables: Crystal Cable | Digital cables: Shunyata Sigma | Rack: YG Acoustics Rack 1.4
    and Rack 1.1 amp stands (pair) | Source: Kaleidescape Premiere

    On order: Shunyata Research Everest.
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Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

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