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  1. #101
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    Re: Music from a farther room

    Quote Originally Posted by socfan12 View Post
    Hi Ralph,

    Great update. I'm not happy with the lighting in my room and as you say, it really sets the mood right. Once my gear settle choices settles down and acoustic treatments are up, I will tackle that next.

    Interested in what you do for your door. I have solid core doors, but with a healthy 1/2 inch or so gap on the bottom. Was thinking of getting some door treatments for the bottom to prevent so much sound from leaking...

    Hi Allen,

    Right after my next update which will deal with the rooms earthing system and the dedicated power circuits, I will discuss the rooms main and sub-doors. Both are fully sealed doors and done properly, these don't come cheaply; but they are necessary in order to meet the targeted level of acoustic comfort mentioned in update 1.
    Borresen Acoustics Loudspeakers, Borresen Model 01 Compact monitor loudspeakers with Ansuz Darkz T2s Supreme resonance control, Audio Video Manufaktur GmbH (AVM) Inspiration amplifier & streamer, Innuos Zen MKII music server, Ansuz Acoustics cables & accessories. Please visit my system thread hosted on Audioshark for more details. Disclosure: The author is materially connected to Ansuz, Aavik & Borresen Acoustics via friendship with an owner.

  2. #102
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    Re: Music from a farther room

    Music for the NEXT room - Update 5



    This update is a continuation of my thoughts and experiments in creating a good listening environment within the confines of a small listening room measuring approximately 17ft x 11ft. Starting with the shell of a room that started life as a ground floor garage this update together with others that will follow will chart key conflicts, decisions and progress towards what I hope will be a new and rewarding approach to small room acoustics.


    This particular update will focus on the electrical design for the room with this specific update focused on decisions taken with respect to earthing.



    EARTHING


    Ask audiophiles what is the most important cable in your audio system and you will receive a variety of replies. Some feel interconnects are the most important; others speaker cables and yet others power cables. Rarely, if ever, will the dedicated room earth cable be even considered let alone mentioned. Perhaps this is because few audiophiles have such cabling in their systems or because it is not practical as apartment living has become increasingly normative? By way of definition such an earth cable interconnects a dedicated audio room garden earth with your audio system. It may not be the most important cable in a given audio system but its benefit is frequently audible. This earth is supplementary to the household earth rod which is generally located in proximity to your main AC distribution / meter board.


    In electricians parlance such an earth is called supplementary bonding. If undertaken, your HiFi should be hooked up to the rod(s) with the shortest run you can manage and as thick a cable as you can manage – because it is acting as an earth and an aerial at the same time. High quality audiophile distribution power blocks such as star earthed enabled strips offered by Nordost and Ansuz feature an earth connection. Traditionally, I’ve had best success connecting the earth lead there.






    Figure 1: System foundation. The power distributor is the heart of an audio system. To derive full benefit of a high class star earth distributor – you should make use of the earth termination.




    So, what is the point of the additional earth – or put another way what problem are we trying to fix? In short, to answer the question one needs to consider how the electronics in your audio system see earth and the quality of that earth? Unless your audio room is already served by dedicated power circuits it is entirely possible that first; the mains earth (which your audio equipment is relying on) runs a long torturous route through a number of junctions – each one raising impedance slightly and second; the homes earth rod is in poor condition (corroded for example) and / or is not sited in an optimal soil environment and accordingly measures a miserably high impedance with 20 Ohm or more not uncommon.

    Regulations will vary by jurisdiction but typically the electrical code will require an earth bonding resistance of not greater than 1 ohm. To test this a megger test instrument is needed.






    Photo 1: Megger tester in foreground with earth lead in background. The earth lead should be high quality with 6 to 10mm2 conductor inner core.





    Photo 2: The Megger tester shows a AC circuit handling a fault current of 0.55kA



    Tests performed by qualified electricians showed the quality of my rooms earth bonding resistance via the dedicated AC spurs to be quite good at around 0.44 ohm. This result was doubtlessly helped by the fact that the spurs were dedicated i.e. run straight back to the miniature circuit breakers (MCB) in a close by meter board and used cable specified at twice the regulatory conductor area standard.




    Photo 3: The earth rod; buried in close proximity (2 meters) to the listening room. Moist ground is better with choice of rod material (i.e. copper, iron etc.) dependent on soil.



    Impedance of the dedicated earth promises to be better still but awaits connection to my audio system to see what benefits (if any) this brings sonically. Testing swopping between house earth the audio room earth showed no voltage difference, both measuring at 242 volts AC.


    In my previously listening room the introduction of a better earth not only lowered the noise floor of the entire audio system but also delivered more resolute and resolved bass. I am hoping for even better rewards with this room given its superior earthing.


    Those interested in further reading on the topic should click HERE [DIY - basics] Hearing better mains supplies in audio




    In the next update I will discuss the room’s power and lighting circuits.




    Important note: the above update does not constitute advice. Please engage a qualified registered professional electrician to make any alterations to your wiring.

  3. #103

    Re: Music from a farther room

    Awesome writeup, Ralph! Thank you very much for taking the time to write this. If one has dedicated circuits for their source and amplification, is something like this still needed?

    thx, Ralph!


    Allen



  4. #104
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    Re: Music from a farther room

    Yes, it is interesting to read.
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  5. #105
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    Re: Music from a farther room

    Quote Originally Posted by socfan12 View Post
    Awesome writeup, Ralph! Thank you very much for taking the time to write this. If one has dedicated circuits for their source and amplification, is something like this still needed?

    thx, Ralph!

    Thanks Allen,

    In answer to your question - I don't know for sure yet and will need to finish the room shell and get my gear in to try it out. I will report back later.

    What I can say is that in my previous room which had both dedicated circuits and a dedicated earth; the introduction of the supplementary earth reduced the noise floor of the system and consequently improved dynamic range. This suggests benefit to having both but it is not wise to arrive at any conclusions based on a single experience.

  6. #106
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    Re: Music from a farther room

    Music for the NEXT room - Update 6



    This update is a continuation of my thoughts and experiments in creating a good listening environment within the confines of a small listening room measuring approximately 17ft x 11ft. Starting with the shell of a room that started life as a ground floor garage this update together with others that will follow will chart key conflicts, decisions and progress towards what I hope will be a new and rewarding approach to small room acoustics.


    In a deviation from the previously planned schedule, this update coincides with the delivery of a new CD storage rack and so in celebration of that I’ve decided to discuss music instead!



    VIVA LA COMPACT DISC


    This rack containing 660 discs – just under half of my total CD collection – sits proudly on the back wall of my new listening room.





    Photo 1: Part of my CD collection - which continues to expand even in this era of streaming



    While many write off Compact Discs as an anachronistic poor sound quality physical format that is merely days – if not hours – away from vanishing forever from the musical media landscape, I believe that it is probably too soon to write the epitaph for the Compact Disc.


    As a recent Ultra Hi Fidelity (UHF) Magazine opined, “it appears obvious what medium will replace the Compact Disc, or is replacing it already: the downloadable file. Music downloading began in the last century as an unofficial (the record companies would say illegal) activity. Big Music was slow to react, suing Napster out of existence instead of buying it, which would have been the rational response. Apple’s iTunes store brought downloading back into the respectable world, and other companies belatedly joined in. Even so, exclusive distribution contracts actually prevent most of the world from obtaining the music they want and would pay for. And you can still find music company executives who will say with a straight face that transferring a CD that you have paid for to your iPod is ‘theft.’”


    UHF’s view that downloadable files will replace the CD may in the long run prove only partially true as Billboard headlined in January this year (2014) that “Digital Music Sales declined for the first time in 2013”; the statistics showing:



    “Overall for the full year 2013, digital track sales fell 5.7% from 1.34 billion units to 1.26 billion units while digital album sales fell 0.1% to 117.6 million units from the previous year’s total of 117.7 million, according to Nielsen SoundScan.”





    While industry executives initially refused to attribute the early signs this year of digital sales weakness to the consumer's growing appetite for streaming, in the second half of the year many were conceding that ad-supported and paid subscription services were indeed cannibalizing digital sales. When asked about the down turn, many industry executives are blaming the growing popularity of services like Spotify, iTunes Radio, Pandora and Rdio that offer easy music streaming for people utilizing mobile devices like smartphones and tablets.



    Flat sales of digital album downloads is grim news for the music industry, with overall [all format] music sales transactions slipping 6.3% during the year, down to 1.56 billion from 1.66 billion in 2012.




    What of the CD? Well, it still accounts for over 50% of the industries sales revenue and whatever growth is possible in download sales hasn’t been enough in the past decade to offset the impact of declining CD sales. Moreover, the industry is yet to figure out a CD buyer migration strategy, necessary because currently the trend in most markets is that many CD buyers are simply falling out of the habit of buying music rather than going digital….. whence therefore, Viva La Compact Disc.




    COMPACT DISC AS A COLLECTABLE


    I tend to treat CD’s as a collectable item. My thinking runs like this:


    Compact Disc = Physical
    Physical = Collectable
    Collectable = Potentially valuable


    Crazy perhaps but some of my CD's / SACD's are now very valuable indeed. For those that doubt this - try this exercise; Go to Amazon.com or ebay or an on-line specialist for old/rare CD’s and Vinyl and check out the price of the following CD's.


    Thriller, Michael Jackson. SACD New = US$350 Used = $150
    Avalon, Roxy Music. SACD New = US$500 Used = $100
    UP, Peter Gabriel. SACD New = US$150 Used = $100
    La Luna, Sarah Brightman. SACD New = US$650+ Used = $400
    The Safety EP, Coldplay. CD. Rare. Used = $1500
    Jacky Evancho, Prelude to a Dream. CD. Rare. Used = $950 to $2000
    Pet Shop Boys, Totally, promo CD. Rare. Used = $2000 to $2500






    It is really interesting to own a physical music collection a small component of which is actually increasing in monetary value with time. Try that trick with a download.






    References:
    UHF Magazine No. 94, Broadcast Canada, December 2013
    http://www.billboard.com/biz/articles/news/digital-and-mobile/5855162/digital-music-sales-decrease-for-first-time-in-2013
    http://musicindustryblog.wordpress.com/2014/03/18/ifpi-and-riaa-2013-music-sales-figures-first-take/
    http://ajournalofmusicalthings.com/the-most-rare-and-valuable-cds/

  7. #107
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    Re: Music from a farther room

    Thanks for the write up Ralph. Have you contemplated ripping your CD's to a true lossless format such as AIFF and stored on a NAS? I have as many CD's as you - maybe more, maybe less - and it was a daunting task, but I'm so glad I did it.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

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  8. #108
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    Re: Music from a farther room

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Have you contemplated ripping your CD's to a true lossless format such as AIFF and stored on a NAS? [...]

    Greetings Mike,

    Yes, I have contemplated ripping my CD's to a lossless format several times -- but it has never advanced beyond contemplation! For one thing the prospect of sitting down to rip some 1200+ CD's, is not terribly exciting. For another, ownership of rare, out of production and limited production CD's virtually guarantees tagging problems. Then there is a challenge in ripping my 150 or so SACDs. Finally, I am still waiting for the ultimate one-box solution (rip, tag, store, flexible DAC etc.) which plays back to a standard that surpasses the best that current compact disc players can manage.

    Right now it feels like the sort of project I'd take on when I enter retirement...

  9. #109
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    Re: Music from a farther room

    Music for the NEXT room - Update 7




    This update is a continuation of my thoughts and experiments in creating a good listening environment within the confines of a small listening room measuring approximately 17ft x 11ft. Starting with the shell of a room that started life as a ground floor garage this update together with others that will follow will chart key conflicts, decisions and progress towards what I hope will be a new and rewarding approach to small room acoustics.

    This particular update will first; close off discussion on power circuits and second, briefly comment on acoustic doors.



    ELECTRICS


    As previously sketched the room is served by three dedicated power circuits, each being a short run of no more than about 10 metres back to the switchboard. The relatively short run means that extra thick cables are not warranted with standard 2.5mm inner core adjudged more than sufficient. Lighting is placed on a separate circuit, but one that is also dedicated to the room.

    At the switchboard each of the three dedicated power circuits is connected to a General Electric (GE) C20 20 Amp circuit Miniature Circuit Breaker (MCB) mounted on standard 35mm DIN-rail mounting. The lighting circuit is connected to a GE C10, 10 Amp MCB. All circuits then pass through a GE 40 Amp residual control device (RCD) which is required by local electrical code to promptly disconnect the circuits if a current leakage is detected.




    Photo 1: Switchboard showing audio room MCBs and RCD



    It is generally recommended that you organise the MCBs (Miniature Circuit Breakers) in your switchboard to have the hifi circuits nearest the On/Off switch (or RCP) and "noisy" circuits (if any) e.g. a fridge, plugged in - furthest away. This was not relevant in my case because this particular switchboard only serves the basement / garage area which is mercifully electrically quiet. For my house ‘noisy’ electrical appliances - generally being anything with a motor or with substandard rectification – for example, fridges and hair dryers are on a completely separate switchboard.

    With power circuits and dedicated earth circuit sorted attention then focussed on electrical outlets. Can a simple electrical outlet have such a dramatic effect on audio performance? Honestly, I have no idea, but for $100 or so per outlet to upgrade why leave it to chance? Audiophile power outlets can sometimes be marketed as a complex tale of exotic materials, unusual processes, leading edge technology and proprietary techniques – but in the case of the outlet I selected; the FIM Model 880 with matching FIM Model 308 faceplate cover, the explanations offered are more down to earth. According to the company their outlets perform well due to:


    · Greater contact pressure
    · Increased contact surface area
    · Higher tolerances throughout
    · Less resonant housing
    · Higher copper-content contacts


    I can live with that type of explanation, particularly since I’ve witnessed first-hand how old or low cost wall power outlets typically don’t afford much contact pressure on power cables, particularly if you are employing audiophile power cables which tend to be bulky, rigid and stiff and can generate a fair amount of resistance strain.




    Photo 2: Winston Ma does more than just producing excellent recordings?




    Photo 3: High performance wall power outlet seen here adjacent to system earth cable



    With lots of positive on-line testimonies the FIM [First Impression Music] outlet together with a non-magnetic stainless steel cover plate were purchased from Galen Carol Audio (Texas, USA).



    ACOUSTIC DOORS


    To round of this particular update I thought I’d include a couple of photos of the main door that serves the audio room. An area of common failing in an attempt to get the noise floor of an audio room below 30dB is the door. Unlike walls which are of significant solid mass and fixed – doors tend to be relatively lightweight and of course need to open and close.




    Photo 4: The Acoustic door, note the parameter and drop seals



    When shopping for acoustic doors I’ve found it useful to consider the following:


    1. Never buy an “acoustic” door by itself. Any decent acoustic door will be sold together with the door frame and all seals; parameter seals for the top and sides and drop seal for the base. Further, the manufacturer should also supply or recommend cylinders, locks and lever furniture.

    2. Look at the certification which should include the standard / methodology they are tested too or with. Common / applicable standards include ISO 140-3, ISO 717-1, ASTM E-90 etc. Further, better quality acoustic doors usually come with a plate discretely screwed to the door which contains information including the doors serial number, STC rating, test standard and year of manufacture.

    3. For installation, use a builder who is recommended by the acoustic door supplier. Too many acoustic doors fail to perform to specification simply because they were not installed correctly. If one man can install a door by himself it is probably not an acoustic door.

    4. Widely available solid core doors are not acoustic doors. Acoustic doors will generally feature an insulated inner core and / or a multiple layer construct of materials arranged in a vibration reducing manner. The STC rating of a typical solid core door will be around 30 (hollow doors being 10dB lower still). Acoustic doors have far greater mass and typically will offer an STC rating of 10dB higher than standard solid core.





    Photo 5: Peeking into the new audio room – still much more to be done….


    In the next update I will share some acoustic measurements for the room which will serve as a benchmark for later work. I will also discuss the most important decision of all – where to place the listening chair. Stay tuned.

  10. #110

    Re: Music from a farther room

    Ah, I see a Sanders amp!

  11. #111
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    Re: Music from a farther room

    "...to get the noise floor of an audio room below 30dB is the door."

    Ralph, wow you got the noise floor below 30db in your room? Very nice. You'll be able to hear the quietest of music passages and dynamic swings. You'll be taking advantage of the quietness and blackness of the system. Who needs a speaker with exceedingly high spl's in a room with such a low noise floor. Well done!

    You are teasing us with that partial picture of your room thru your door. When do we get to see the rest?

    Le Roy
    Le Roy

    Austin, Tx : Soulution 520 preamp, 501 mono blocks, 541 SACD/560 DAC w/ Network Streaming, Raidho D3.1, Lumin U1, Uptone Audio Modded Mac Mini w/ MMK fanless kit & JS-2 LPS, Regen, Ansuz DTC loom (complete), Oppo 105D, QNAP TS-451+

    Chicagoland : Soulution 725 preamp, 711 stereo amp, 541 SACD/560 DAC w/ Network Streaming, Raidho D5.1, Naim UnitiServe 2TB, Aurender W-20 Ansuz DTC later generation wire, Teac X1000 R2R, QNAP TS-451+

    Foundation:
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  12. #112
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    Re: Music from a farther room

    I have a solid core door to my dedicated listening room. It works extremely well! I see you put a lot of thought into the dedicated listening room. Nice job!!!
    George
    -----------------------

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  13. #113
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    Re: Music from a farther room

    Quote Originally Posted by Odyssey View Post
    [...] Ralph, wow you got the noise floor below 30db in your room? Very nice. You'll be able to hear the quietest of music passages and dynamic swings. You'll be taking advantage of the quietness and blackness of the system. Who needs a speaker with exceedingly high spl's in a room with such a low noise floor. Well done!

    Hi Le Roy, I have a noise floor of approx. 28dB which is better than anticipated and quite good considering the lightweight construct. One benefit of this property is that it is on a back section, so buffered from road noise and attenuated in vibration. Another benefit is that three of the four side walls have at least one additional wall before you hit the exterior environment.

    Yes, you are on the money, the quieter the room the more low level detail one can hear in recordings and the greater potential dynamic range of the system.





    Quote Originally Posted by Odyssey View Post
    [...]

    You are teasing us with that partial picture of your room thru your door. When do we get to see the rest?

    Le Roy

    Not much to show right now. I've installed the system so I can commence acoustical measurements. The room is naked save for the audio system, listening chair and a CD rack. I will post of picture of that in my next update. The acoustic results will drive decisions on what treatment is needed.

  14. #114
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    Re: Music from a farther room

    Quote Originally Posted by Audioseduction View Post
    I have a solid core door to my dedicated listening room. It works extremely well! I see you put a lot of thought into the dedicated listening room. Nice job!!!

    Thanks George.

    Solid core doors can work well so long as they are fully sealed. If you can see any light via cracks at the base or at any point around the frame then solid or otherwise - the door is not going to be effective, at least from an isolation potential perspective.

  15. #115
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    Re: Music from a farther room

    Hi Ralph/Kiwi,

    As I felt it was vital for me to gain more insight into your logical approach to Hi-Fi, I've read quite a few of your post since last night, and find that in many ways we both believe equally in the overall importance of the Foundation of system building and/or priorities.

    I admire the fact, that unlike some - you saw the room as the limiting factor in regards to fidelity and started with the AC Outlets working outwards with your choices of acoustical treatment in a very detailed manner, your attention to detail in regards to placement of your electronics - AC distributor - AC Outlet/Covering - Isolation Feet/Platform as well as knowing the importance of matching ones speakers to their given room size are in fact studies some tend to overlook, in others words............., it lets me know, I can trust in your senses as well as your heartfelt desire to share a fascinating journey, allowing us to seat in your favorite chair while taking it all in.

    Well planned,and organized setup and lay out of your listening room I might add.

    And it goes without saying - great taste as well.

    Cheers,
    O_o scar

  16. #116
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    Re: Music from a farther room

    Thanks for the kind words.

    When it comes to audio reproduction everything seems to matter and attention to detail - even "sweating the small stuff" - can pay significant sonic dividends.

  17. #117
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    Re: Music from a farther room

    You're more then welcome, merely giving deserved credit where's due.

    And must say I'm into devices like Nordost Sort Kones - Symposium Acoustics Rollerblock and Stillpoints Ultras as well, as you've put it - everything seems to matter.

  18. #118
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    Re: Music from a farther room

    Music for the NEXT room - Update 8




    This update is a continuation of my thoughts and experiments in creating a good listening environment within the confines of a small listening room measuring approximately 17ft x 11ft. Starting with the shell of a room that started life as a ground floor garage this update together with others that will follow will chart key conflicts, decisions and progress towards what I hope will be a new and rewarding approach to small room acoustics.

    This particular update will discuss interesting observations I’ve made about the placement of loudspeakers and the listening chair in your room.



    DO YOU HAVE A SEAT IN HEAVEN?

    Of all the choices one has to make in setting up a good environment in which to listen to music – by far the most important – is selecting the location of your listening chair.

    Yet, a quick literature review on the topic of positioning your listening chair reveals that far more is written about positioning your speakers than positioning your listening chair.

    When it comes to positioning loudspeakers, well known resources include:


    The Cardas Method

    Audio Physics Method

    "WASP" (Wilson Audio Setup Procedure)


    While useful these methods predominately focus on positioning speakers i.e. distance between speaker and boundaries; distance between two speakers; distance to listener, toeing in of speakers etc.

    Yet for all of that I believe based on personal experience in constructing two audio rooms that;



    "The key objective must be to discover where in the room you should sit to take advantage of the least negative room interactions such as obvious peaks and nulls in the bass."




    And furthermore, that measurements (I recommend 1/12th Octave RTA) are the most effective – and quickest – way of achieving this goal. This is not to say that loudspeaker positioning is not important, it is, for it will among other things determine which of the rooms resonance modes is activated – but often seemingly frequently overlooked is the observation that it is the listeners location which will determine which of the modes will actually be heard!



    THE FLOYD TOOLE / HARMAN CALCULATOR

    Dr. Floyd E. Toole is a leading expert in the field of sound reproduction and his comprehensive research covers the whole sound reproduction chain from multi-channel audio configurations and the loudspeaker/room system to acoustics and psychoacoustics and the evaluation process.

    Some years back Kevin Fielding a friend on Audiogon (handle of Kevinzoe) had pointed out to me an analysis tool made available by Harman International Industries of which Floyd is a Vice President of Acoustical Engineering, which provided a nice graphical analysis of room modes. The Room Mode Calculator or “Axial Standing Wave Calculator” to be more precise is authored by Dan Siefert and Allan Devantier of Harman International Industries, Inc.

    This is a Microsoft® Excel® program for the PC that calculates the resonance frequencies for rectangular rooms, and which shows graphically the sound pressure distributions along the major axes of the room.

    Kevin had even thoughtfully used the tool to demonstrate to me how repositioning my listening chair in an earlier audio room would result in a smoother bass.

    What follows below will utilise the above cited Harmon calculator to explore:

    1. The efficacy of the tool
    2. The objective difference moving the listening chair can make



    REFERENCE – AN EMPTY ROOM

    Below are the results of room analysis in my empty audio room as measured by the XTZ Room Analyser II pro hardware and software (XTZ AB, Gamla Nissastigen 19, 314 41, Torup Sweden).

    In a room which is approximately 17ft long the Raidho D2 speakers are initially placed 6ft from the front wall and the listening chair is approximately 5ft from the rear wall.



    Graph 1: Bass frequency response in empty room in the positional setting cited above



    As horrible as the frequency response in graph 1 above looks, this is completely typical for small untreated rooms. It would not matter if you were using a $300 NAD integrated amplifier with a pair of $300 KEF bookshelf speakers or $100,000 Soulution 720 pre-amp with Soulution 711 stereo power amplifier together with $185,000 Magico Q7 loudspeakers – the room will have a profound effect on what is ultimately heard, masking any benefit that might be derived from more expensive equipment. What we hear indoors also includes the room, and the positional factors within it.

    The peak at around 30Hz is a length mode, the peak at 100Hz is a clubbing of room length and width modes and the peak at 130Hz is also room length related.

    Most troubling is the deep null at around 57Hz. This severe null is essentially destructive interference which occurs when two waves are 180 degrees out of phase. This yields a partial cancellation of that frequency resulting in a dip or null at that frequency. A slight peak is not nearly as noticeable or damaging as a deep null (seen here) so a key objective of shortly moving the listening chair will be to reduce this null.

    Also troubling though is the twin peaks seen between 100-135Hz. These are a concern because their wide combined bandwidth will be excessive and thus clearly audible. Again, we will see if moving the listening chair can reduce the amplitude and bandwidth of these peaks.




    Graph 2: Spectrogram analysis - note the high energy and long (>50mS) decay time at 100 & 130Hz. Not good!


    Graph 2 depicts the empty rooms Spectrogram analysis which depicts a colour spectrum with frequency, amplitude and time data and provides a quick glance guide of decay time as a function of time and frequency. Clearly seen here is the extended decay time (100mS) at around 100Hz.




    Graph 3: Low resolution (1/3rd Octave) broadband frequency response


    The full range frequency response in graph 3 incorporates several RT60 measurements.

    Reverberation times can and will vary across the frequency range depending on the size of room. The objective here is to ensure decay is even across the frequency spectrum without favouring certain ranges. From the measurement point of view one tends to ignore measurements below 200Hz as in small rooms the measurement is flawed by the energy cumulated in room modes, but that said the results shown here are pleasingly even and surprisingly low considering the bare room – which by ‘as-is’ condition is highly reflective. The average result of around 0.5 seconds is likely an outcome of the dense ceiling absorption.

    I do again however stress that RT60 is invalid for a room this size, as it is too small to build up a real reverberant field.



    AXIAL STANDING WAVE CALCULATOR

    The reason for the troubling twin peaks at 100 – 135Hz is evident from calculator results. The positioning of the listening chair was a poor one. At around 5ft of the rear wall and centred 5 ½ ft. in room width – the listening chair is sitting precisely at peaks (100Hz and 133Hz) in room length and 101 Hz in room width.



    Table 1: Calculator shows the poorly considered existing locations



    While multiple solutions exist, the calculator predicts that the quickest win to counter the surplus 100Hz energy is simply to move the listening chair back to 2 3/4ft from the rear wall. The speakers are slightly repositioned from 6 to 6 1/2 ft off front wall.




    Table 2: One possible option for improved listening seat location


    The above action taken the objective (measured) and the subjective (audible) improvements are amazing. Seen in the below graphs the massive 33dB peak to null delta (70dB @ 100Hz less 37dB @ 57Hz) that earlier existed has been reduced by around 13dB and the mountain that once existed at 100-135Hz has been levelled. Further, as is often the case when you reduce the peaks you also improve the troughs and in this instance the massive trough at 57Hz has disappeared.




    Graph 4: Much improved low frequency response




    Graph 5: While far from perfect the graph shows reduced energy at 100 & 130Hz




    Graph 6: Waterfall plot shows more work is needed - hardly surprising for a small near empty room



    The changes are also subjectively audible. Play any piece of music with a strong mid-bass level (mid bass = approx. 40Hz – 100Hz); Dire Straits – ‘Money for Nothing’ is a great example and changes bought by simply moving the listening chair are very clear indeed. Prior to moving the chair the bass was excessive, a muddy mess significantly lacking in definition. Given the wide variation in room gain and losses with too much power it would be possible to bottom out your loudspeaker woofers. Moreover, because the bass is excessive, resolution and rhythm are diluted and Mark Knopfler's gravel like lower vocal register seem recessed, partially lost in the mix.




    SUMMARY

    Using simple tools to calculate optimal seating and loudspeaker locations can produce amazing results! While sometimes overlooked in existing literature -- considering where to locate your listener chair is of prime importance.

    To that end, one simple tool that can assist with this objective is the Harman "Axial Standing Wave Calculator". As evidenced above, this calculator proved its worth - aligning wonderfully with independent and objective room measurements and to the subjective listening experience.

    Finally, the above measurements set a ground zero benchmark which will be objectively used for comparison purposes as acoustic tools are progressively introduced to the room. The real fun will be begin next month with the arrival of acoustic tools from Svanå Miljö Teknik of Sweden. Stay tuned!

  19. #119
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    Re: Music from a farther room

    Great post! Seating position is so crucial.
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    Re: Music from a farther room

    What height?

  21. #121
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    Re: Music from a farther room

    Quote Originally Posted by kiwi_1282001 View Post
    Thanks George.

    Solid core doors can work well so long as they are fully sealed. If you can see any light via cracks at the base or at any point around the frame then solid or otherwise - the door is not going to be effective, at least from an isolation potential perspective.
    I measured my room noise floor today and it measured between approx. 27-28dB.
    George
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    Re: Music from a farther room

    Kiwi,

    Great follow up as always, and you do seem to focus on certain areas of placement of both speakers - components and listening chair/sofa that many tend to take for granted, all I can say is that, I'm loving it.

    I've learned more from a few of you guys here in less then a month, then I even had on various other forums over the course of nearly 10 years, with the exception of tubes, which I learned from some of the members of the Hong Kong Tube Audio Group since 1999.

    But, then it merely goes to show that while on some forums, some of the members are difficult to deal with, you guys have a kinder - warmer approach to be open-minded, and your willingness to share more openinly with others, which I dig!.

    It's nice to be able to find a place where there are more like mines, then not.

  23. #123
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    Re: Music from a farther room

    Ralph,
    I have a room of almost the same size. 11 x 16 x 7 ... I've moved my speakers out from the front wall to 6 feet and the listening chair slightly at 3 feet. Immediate results... WOW....Will continue to adjust.
    I listened to the following music that I enjoy and am very familiar with:
    Michael Wolff Trio 2AM
    Dylan Blood On The Tracks
    Sun Kil Moon (Mark Kozelek) Admiral Fell Promises
    Keith Jarrett Jasmine
    These are just immediate impressions..... I,m enjoying the music so much, tweaking will have to wait until late tonight or tomorrow
    Kiwi, Thanks for your continuing support and guidance to all Shark members

    All the best,
    Tom SE MI

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    Re: Music from a farther room

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Great post! Seating position is so crucial.
    Thanks Mike, indeed, I don’t believe it to be an exaggeration to say that unless loudspeaker and listener locations are evaluated in conjunction with the standing wave patterns – we will not succeed in unlocking the great potential of our audio systems



    Quote Originally Posted by sharkmouth View Post
    What height?
    Kev, height refers to height of the listeners ears which as shown in table 2 are around 42 inches. The test microphone was also set to this height for objective testing.



    Quote Originally Posted by Audioseduction View Post
    I measured my room noise floor today and it measured between approx. 27-28dB.
    George, that appears to be a great result. Was the measurement made with a calibrated SPL meter or room analyser software with mic and was it A, C or Z weighted?

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    Re: Music from a farther room

    Quote Originally Posted by hoosiertom View Post
    Ralph,


    I have a room of almost the same size. 11 x 16 x 7 ... I've moved my speakers out from the front wall to 6 feet and the listening chair slightly at 3 feet. Immediate results... WOW....Will continue to adjust. [...]

    That’s awesome Tom. That is a wonderful music list. I find Admiral Fell Promises (Sun Kil Moon) particularly emotive and engaging.

    Others wanting to try the calculator can download it from here:

    Harman - Calculators

  26. #126
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    Re: Music from a farther room

    Quote Originally Posted by kiwi_1282001 View Post
    George, that appears to be a great result. Was the measurement made with a calibrated SPL meter or room analyser software with mic and was it A, C or Z weighted?
    That was measured with my cell phone. I measured again with a real sound level meter "SPL-8810" and it measured 34dB. Still not bad I think.

    George
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    Re: Music from a farther room

    Quote Originally Posted by Audioseduction View Post
    That was measured with my cell phone. I measured again with a real sound level meter "SPL-8810" and it measured 34dB. Still not bad I think.
    Hey George, 34dB is not bad at all. What is measured will depend on the "weighting" used. A 34dB measurement using C-weighting is much better than a 34dB measure using A-weighting because of the roll off in low frequency response.

    The below graph demonstrations this.


    It goes without saying that measurements using mobile phones are worthless. The microphone in such instruments is simply not designed for that type of use.
    Borresen Acoustics Loudspeakers, Borresen Model 01 Compact monitor loudspeakers with Ansuz Darkz T2s Supreme resonance control, Audio Video Manufaktur GmbH (AVM) Inspiration amplifier & streamer, Innuos Zen MKII music server, Ansuz Acoustics cables & accessories. Please visit my system thread hosted on Audioshark for more details. Disclosure: The author is materially connected to Ansuz, Aavik & Borresen Acoustics via friendship with an owner.

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    Re: Music from a farther room

    Boy am I excited...

    My new acoustic panels have finally arrived in from Svanå Miljö Teknik of Sweden. These guys are creating quite a stir in the global audiophile community with their new(ish) wing panels. Some of you will seen some of these panels at the Munich HighEnd show 2014.

    My panels have been shipped in a flat pack format and will need some DIY to put together, but that significantly reduces freight costs and provides some interesting insight into their design.




    In future updates I will discuss these panels in some detail. SMT's thinking is different from widely published norms and I am interested to see how this plays out in my listening room. My expectation is that these panels will further advance the already amazing resolution I obtain from my Raidho Acoustics loudspeakers. Game on.


    Borresen Acoustics Loudspeakers, Borresen Model 01 Compact monitor loudspeakers with Ansuz Darkz T2s Supreme resonance control, Audio Video Manufaktur GmbH (AVM) Inspiration amplifier & streamer, Innuos Zen MKII music server, Ansuz Acoustics cables & accessories. Please visit my system thread hosted on Audioshark for more details. Disclosure: The author is materially connected to Ansuz, Aavik & Borresen Acoustics via friendship with an owner.

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    Re: Music from a farther room

    If there results are as good as there smooth looks your on a winner Kiwi.Would be nice to deck out the whole room with there product.I'm using x2 Razorblade Quadratic Diffuser behind the listening chair with great results!!
    Stump

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    Re: Music from a farther room

    Quote Originally Posted by kiwi_1282001 View Post
    Boy am I excited...

    My new acoustic panels have finally arrived in from Svanå Miljö Teknik of Sweden. These guys are creating quite a stir in the global audiophile community with their new(ish) wing panels. Some of you will seen some of these panels at the Munich HighEnd show 2014.

    My panels have been shipped in a flat pack format and will need some DIY to put together, but that significantly reduces freight costs and provides some interesting insight into their design.

    In future updates I will discuss these panels in some detail. SMT's thinking is different from widely published norms and I am interested to see how this plays out in my listening room. My expectation is that these panels will further advance the already amazing resolution I obtain from my Raidho Acoustics loudspeakers. Game on.


    Great news Ralph Which of the SMT products did you get ? Are you going to do an acoustic version of the "loom' system? I've briefly looked at the US distributor website and seen their range of Plank diffusors, 2D diffusors, and bass traps... looks very interesting.. big understatement

    All the best,
    Tom SE MI

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    Re: Music from a farther room

    Ralph - I hope the SMT products work better for you then they did for a local dealer who spent north of $150,000 for two demo rooms and said afterwards, "I can't stay in either room for more than 20 minutes". The installation contractor was out of Chicago I think.

    Attached Images Attached Images
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  32. #132
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    Re: Music from a farther room

    Quote Originally Posted by stump View Post
    If there results are as good as there smooth looks your on a winner Kiwi. Would be nice to deck out the whole room with there product. I'm using x2 Razorblade Quadratic Diffuser behind the listening chair with great results!!
    Stump
    Quadratic diffusors behind your listening chair – we are clearly on the same page Stump. Out of interest what is the distance between your listening chair and the diffusor?

    One of the benefits of the solution which I plan to deploy progressively is the possibility of close seating proximity (near field) to the diffusor – something that tends to be inevitable in small listening room settings.



    Quote Originally Posted by hoosiertom View Post
    Great news Ralph. Which of the SMT products did you get ? Are you going to do an acoustic version of the "loom' system? I've briefly looked at the US distributor website and seen their range of Plank diffusors, 2D diffusors, and bass traps... looks very interesting.. big understatement. all the best,
    Tom SE MI

    Hey Tom, I plan to progressively roll out the Svanå Miljö Teknik solution, starting first with the early sidewall reflection points, then progressing to rear wall, then front wall solutions. Along the way I will be listening, measuring and comparing performance in differing locations and against empty space (no treatment) and Raidho’s preferred dried willow bunch solution. This will take some time.

    Somewhat oddly, Performance Acoustics Labs (PAL) of Buffalo NY who is SMT’s US representative and installer does not appear to offer or stock the latest generation of SMT products. I contacted PAL (twice) on the subject and got deafening silence both times. They are possibly too busy with the Harmonic Resolutions (HRS) stuff.

    I will be employing a wing diffusor solution, looking similar to the below photo.





    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Ralph - I hope the SMT products work better for you then they did for a local dealer who spent north of $150,000 for two demo rooms and said afterwards, "I can't stay in either room for more than 20 minutes". The installation contractor was out of Chicago I think.
    Hi Mike, That looks like The Sound Experience FL? Appears to be using SMT’s earlier products in a full on level 3 design – but I am still surprised at the comment. Did they expand on the observation at all? Was the room too bright for them?

  33. #133
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    Re: Music from a farther room

    My room is 3300mmx7800mm and 2740 ceilings.(25footx10.5 foot ceiling 9foot)It was once the lounge and dining area but now dedicated music room. x2 Razorblade Quadratic Diffuser behind the listening chair about 6 feet away!Poly-max absorption behind speakers with scattering on the ceiling and back side walls.I have my own version of Helmholtz Resonator bulkheads on each end of the room.The room was dead before I got some measurements(TOO much polymax) Im happy with the results with a few changes and plan on getting some more measurements soon.I have x5 speakers and x3 subs for surround music.My resent purchase of a Vitus 025 Amp has me playing stereo without subs for now..
    Cheers Stump
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  34. #134
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    Re: Music from a farther room

    Hi again Stump,

    I see lots of Asian motifs in your room. I take it you have spent sometime travelling or have links to the region?

    Congratulations on the acquisition of the Vitus SIA-025 amplifier. They are awesome.





    I am interested in your comment about having your own version of Helmholtz Resonator bulkheads on each end of the room. I take it that these are like false walls the volume behind of which - together with the opening mouth - is calculated to address a specific modal problem?

    Cheers
    Ralph
    Borresen Acoustics Loudspeakers, Borresen Model 01 Compact monitor loudspeakers with Ansuz Darkz T2s Supreme resonance control, Audio Video Manufaktur GmbH (AVM) Inspiration amplifier & streamer, Innuos Zen MKII music server, Ansuz Acoustics cables & accessories. Please visit my system thread hosted on Audioshark for more details. Disclosure: The author is materially connected to Ansuz, Aavik & Borresen Acoustics via friendship with an owner.

  35. #135

    Re: Music from a farther room

    Hi Ralph,
    I've been following this thread for some time, thru your room evolution. I plan to implement acoustic diffusion to my setup eventually. I know every room and setup is different, but there seems to be some key elements to get the project off the ground. It will definitely not be up to your amazing standards however. This site is definitely better having you post here as we all benefit from your journey.

  36. #136
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    Re: Music from a farther room

    Thanks Ralph
    I have traveled Asia over the years and have a soft spot for Buddhist countries!Very happy with how the Vitus SIA-025 fits in my system.My own version of Helmholtz Resonator bulkheads started as a bass trap full of x3 sheets of polymax.After the room was measured it was suggested to modify the bulkheads using what I have and replicate the same for the front of the room.
    What I ended up with is a 450x450mm bulkhead lined with polymax with a 200x200mm square tunnel through the middle and 50mm ridged fiberglass on each end.The bulkhead was lined with 6mm MDF except for the fiberglass on each end.The fiberglass is fixed on two sides allowing it to Resonate.Music turned up with nice Bass Resonates giving the affect of a wider room.
    The corner traps are ridged fiberglass cut into triangles with a 50mm air gap then 3mm MDF.Inbetween are x2 framed pieces of polymax 2mx1m which are there to absorb everything.The Red Vicoustic Multifusor DC2 in the middle is more for decoration .The other Vicoustic Multifusor in the room have been painted with left over house paint(water based)to break up the look.I picked up 25 second hand for $30 each.
    Very happy with the results and could listen to music all day without getting fatigue.
    Although its not a tuned Helmholtz Resonator for a particular problem in the room it is doing a good job trapping the lows and reflecting some highs!!
    Cheers Stump

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  37. #137
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    Re: Music from a farther room

    I have often wondered what my Raidho D2 speakers would sound like driven by powerful tube amplification. A few years back I had tried my then Raidho C1 speakers with tube power amplification from Cary Audio. The CAD 120S was fitted with quad KT88 tubes per channel and generated 60 Watts in triode mode and 120 Watts in ultralinear. For reasons unknown and despite being front end of Cary’s outstanding two box SLP-05 pre-amplifier, the Raidho speakers and the CAD120S simply did not click.


    Fast forward to September 2014 and I have the absolute pleasure of hosting a couple of monsters on the form of Doge Audios latest power amplification, the Doge 9.




    Photo 1: Doge 9 Monoblocs (latest version with user adjustable feedback loop) fronted here with a Cary pre-amp and Esoteric CDP



    From any angle this is one serious pair of 211 based tube monoblocks. At 50Kg (110lbs) per piece and a rating of around 200 watts per channel – the manufacturer is confident enough to make the claim that “you simply won't find similar sound performance on the market below $15,000.”





    Photo 2: Doge 9 mono with triode 211 output tubes shining



    Fitted out with upgraded (and optional extra cost) Psvane 211-T driver tubes the Doge 9 confidently steps up to plate.

    Will it rewrite the disappointing history I’ve had powering Raidho’s with tubes?

  38. #138
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    Re: Music from a farther room

    Ralph, you are a real tease !!
    Mark


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  39. #139

    Re: Music from a farther room

    @Kiwi

    Interesting. I'm looking forward to your findings.

    My experience regarding Raidho in relation to tubes is that they need quality amplification with grip, speed and a high degree of transparency to truly come alive and open up. I've had great results with VTL and Ayon. For SS, Jeff Rowland comes out on top in my showrooms.
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    Music from a farther room

    Ralph - I tried a seemingly endless variety of amps on the D3's and to me, the VAC amps performed best. It's no wonder VAC was one of Borrensens top five recommendations regarding amps for Raidho.
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  41. #141
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    Re: Music from a farther room

    Ralph
    The room is looking great. The Doge mono amps are formidable looking to say the least
    It looks like you've changed rack placement to the front wall between the speakers... Nordost Sort Fut footers under the Steve Blinn rack ? Ansuz PC on the Esoteric now ?
    Looking forward to your continuing updates on room acoustics and how the amps work out...
    All the best,
    Tom SE Michigan

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    Re: Music from a farther room

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperion View Post
    @Kiwi

    Interesting. I'm looking forward to your findings.

    My experience regarding Raidho in relation to tubes is that they need quality amplification with grip, speed and a high degree of transparency to truly come alive and open up. I've had great results with VTL and Ayon. For SS, Jeff Rowland comes out on top in my showrooms.

    Hi Marcus,

    Thanks for the interest and I agree, with amplification for Raidho it is a case of quality rather than quantity. That said, I have always found the Raidho’s to favourably respond to well-engineered higher powered amplifiers.

    I am interested in your thoughts on Ayon. Have you had an Orion III, Spirit III or Triton III integrated powering Raidhos? If so, what were your thoughts on the pairing? Strengths and weaknesses?

    Ditto for the Jeff Rowland Continuum S2?

    While I remain open minded about future amplification for my speakers, I would love to simplify.



    Quote Originally Posted by hoosiertom View Post
    Ralph
    The room is looking great. The Doge mono amps are formidable looking to say the least
    It looks like you've changed rack placement to the front wall between the speakers... Nordost Sort Fut footers under the Steve Blinn rack ? Ansuz PC on the Esoteric now ?
    Looking forward to your continuing updates on room acoustics and how the amps work out...
    All the best,
    Tom SE Michigan

    You have the eyes of an eagle Tom!

    Yes, Nordost Sort Füt footers now grace my equipment rack which is sourced from Soul to Sole Audio of New Zealand. All my equipment rests upon Nordost Sort Kones (TC version) which I think very highly of and prefer over competing offers from Stillpoints, Ansuz, Golden Sound and others that I’ve evaluated in my system.



    Photo1: Nordost Sort Füt mechanically tuned resonance control device sit at the base of the rack



    All my system cables are either Ansuz or Nordost. The sole exception is the power cord feeding the Esoteric player. The player needed a PC with a slight touch of richness and heft and I found that in the form of Kubula Sosna Research (USA) aptly named “Emotion” cable.




    Photo 2: A Kubala-Sonsa Reseach power cord feeds the Esoteric CDP. The cord provides some much needed weight and energy in the midbass without obscuring the definition



    I will be penning more thoughts on the Doge audio monsters and progress with the Swedish acoustic room treatments shortly.

  43. #143
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    Re: Music from a farther room

    You have the eyes of an eagle Tom!

    I believe I'm the only eagle that's worn glasses for just over 60 years

    Several more questions: Are you still using the Nordost distribution units or the Ansuz Mainz?
    Which PC brands/models to which equipment besides the Esoteric CDP ... and which speaker cables
    Consider the Inquisition over... Thank you for your forbearance...
    All the best,
    Tom


    Yes, Nordost Sort Füt footers now grace my equipment rack which is sourced from Soul to Sole Audio of New Zealand. All my equipment rests upon Nordost Sort Kones (TC version) which I think very highly of and prefer over competing offers from Stillpoints, Ansuz, Golden Sound and others that I’ve evaluated in my system.



    Photo1: Nordost Sort Füt mechanically tuned resonance control device sit at the base of the rack



    All my system cables are either Ansuz or Nordost. The sole exception is the power cord feeding the Esoteric player. The player needed a PC with a slight touch of richness and heft and I found that in the form of Kubula Sosna Research (USA) aptly named “Emotion” cable.




    Photo 2: A Kubala-Sonsa Reseach power cord feeds the Esoteric CDP. The cord provides some much needed weight and energy in the midbass without obscuring the definition



    I will be penning more thoughts on the Doge audio monsters and progress with the Swedish acoustic room treatments shortly.[/QUOTE]

  44. #144

    Re: Music from a farther room

    Hi,

    Raidho demands a very high quality chain, but doesn't necessarily need high-power. That said, more powerful amps in itself is not a problem. I'm very impressed by the Continuum S2 from Jeff Rowland, but the 725 monos will give you more of everything partnered with the Raidhos - control, definition, soundstage. What matters is quality and characteristics. An amplifier leaning towards a slower, warmer, dense and more laid back sound would not be a great match with Raidho. I'm not surprised that Pass has turned out to be a less than optimal choice for some. The same goes for cabling, where neutrality and transparency are crucial qualities. I believe Ansuz (naturally) and Nordost to be the ones to beat.

    Ayon offers what I would describe as modern sounding tube amps being very clean, dynamic and open in character. They will not provide the same bass control or definition as Jeff Rowland etc, but they do add a touch of that holographic tube magic which some people favor. I have the Triton III on permanent demo.

    Hope that helps.

    / Marcus




    Quote Originally Posted by kiwi_1282001 View Post

    Hi Marcus,

    Thanks for the interest and I agree, with amplification for Raidho it is a case of quality rather than quantity. That said, I have always found the Raidho’s to favourably respond to well-engineered higher powered amplifiers.

    I am interested in your thoughts on Ayon. Have you had an Orion III, Spirit III or Triton III integrated powering Raidhos? If so, what were your thoughts on the pairing? Strengths and weaknesses?

    Ditto for the Jeff Rowland Continuum S2?

    While I remain open minded about future amplification for my speakers, I would love to simplify.
    PERFECT SENSE
    www.perfect-sense.se

    Showroom in Stockholm, Sweden | info@perfect-sense.se | 08 518 368 00 | Follow us on Facebook

  45. #145
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    Re: Music from a farther room

    Quote Originally Posted by hoosiertom View Post

    I believe I'm the only eagle that's worn glasses for just over 60 years

    Several more questions: Are you still using the Nordost distribution units or the Ansuz Mainz? Which PC brands/models to which equipment besides the Esoteric CDP ... and which speaker cables. Consider the Inquisition over... Thank you for your forbearance...
    All the best,
    Tom

    Hi Tom,

    In answer your question the Nordost Qbase is retained for now, the IC's are Nordost Valhalla, the PC's are Ansuz P (to all components save as mentioned above) and the SC is Ansuz P.



    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperion View Post
    Hi,

    Raidho demands a very high quality chain, but doesn't necessarily need high-power. That said, more powerful amps in itself is not a problem. I'm very impressed by the Continuum S2 from Jeff Rowland, but the 725 monos will give you more of everything partnered with the Raidhos - control, definition, soundstage. What matters is quality and characteristics. An amplifier leaning towards a slower, warmer, dense and more laid back sound would not be a great match with Raidho. I'm not surprised that Pass has turned out to be a less than optimal choice for some. The same goes for cabling, where neutrality and transparency are crucial qualities. I believe Ansuz (naturally) and Nordost to be the ones to beat.

    Ayon offers what I would describe as modern sounding tube amps being very clean, dynamic and open in character. They will not provide the same bass control or definition as Jeff Rowland etc, but they do add a touch of that holographic tube magic which some people favor. I have the Triton III on permanent demo.

    Hope that helps.

    / Marcus

    Hi Marcus,

    That was helpful, thanks.

    I am also wondering about the Simaudio MOON gear. I’ve heard Raidho’s powered by the 600i and 700i amplifiers and was quite pleased with the result. How would these amps stack up against the Jeff Rowland S2?

    I found the MOON gear was neutral with clean tonality, rapid transient response and good dynamic punch. While I have auditioned the Jeff Rowland S2 it was not unfortunately in my system – but my impression was it could dig a little deeper in the bass and was quieter / blacker in backdrop. Interested in your thoughts?





  46. #146
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    Re: Music from a farther room

    Hi Ralph - any more thoughts on the Kubala-Sosna PC?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

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  47. #147
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    Re: Music from a farther room

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Hi Ralph - any more thoughts on the Kubala-Sosna PC?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    It is an excellent PC in small doses Mike.

    If you have a component which the characteristics could be described as lean [as in slightly bass shy]; perhaps a touch analytical [as in very detailed, almost to the point of excess] and overall uninvolving [as in boring to listen too] then the KS-emotion might be just the ticket to connect you to the music.

    Worked a treat on my Esoteric CDP [which had all the above issues], but multiple KS-emotion cords in my system led to a loss in definition, so I'd use with care.

    As a side-note I found the Kubala Sosna cables fabulous with Soulution Audio electronics [Serie 5 and Serie 7] which I was auditioning at one point.

  48. #148

    Re: Music from a farther room

    The Jeff Rowland Continuum S2 is indeed superior to the Simaudio Moon 600i imo. The Rowland is more transparent and dynamic with increased definition and control - qualities that makes the Raidhos really open up and come alive. If Simaudio Moon is clean, Rowlands is definately cleaner. It's also more quite with a blacker backdrop - just as you say. The Raidho D1 sounds slower, less defined and a tad closed in with the Simaudio Moon compared to the Rowland. That said, the 600i is a great integrated at this price level. The Continuum S2 retails at about 35% more in Europe after all.


    Quote Originally Posted by kiwi_1282001 View Post

    Hi Marcus,

    That was helpful, thanks.

    I am also wondering about the Simaudio MOON gear. I’ve heard Raidho’s powered by the 600i and 700i amplifiers and was quite pleased with the result. How would these amps stack up against the Jeff Rowland S2?

    I found the MOON gear was neutral with clean tonality, rapid transient response and good dynamic punch. While I have auditioned the Jeff Rowland S2 it was not unfortunately in my system – but my impression was it could dig a little deeper in the bass and was quieter / blacker in backdrop. Interested in your thoughts?
    PERFECT SENSE
    www.perfect-sense.se

    Showroom in Stockholm, Sweden | info@perfect-sense.se | 08 518 368 00 | Follow us on Facebook

  49. #149
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    Re: Music from a farther room

    Continuing the search for the ‘next great thing’ to power my Raidho loudspeakers this particular update advances the introduction I’ve earlier made on the 2013 version of the Doge 9 power amplifier. Recall here the Doge 9 is a 200 watt per channel (class AB) 211 tube based mono-bloc amplifier.

    We audiophiles love to compartmentalize things and have strong tenancies to fit various types of components into neat little slots. For example, you will frequently see it opined that solid state amplifiers are fast, a little lean but have grip and control; whereas valve amplifiers are warm and more ‘colourful’, but are slow and a bit soft. While these observations certainly have appeal they are not in my experience universally true. Some years backs I had a VTL S-400 power amplifier (300wpc tetrode and 150wpc triode) connected up to my speakers and I assure you the sonic result was neither soft nor slow…

    Back to the Doge 9 the listening session was brief (at around four hours) and the amplifier only had about 200 hours on the clock – well short of the 1000 hours some claim 211 tubes require for break-in.


    These limitations duly noted – what did I think?

    My executive summary runs like this – that whilst the Doge 9 does not set any new Hi-Fi standards in absolute terms, the sound quality does have enormous overall appeal.





    Photo 1: The Doge 9 tube complement; 211 x 2 (Psvane 211-T), EL34B x 2, 12AT7 x 4



    To expand, as I have frequently found with tube amplification the mid band is certainly the best feature, with fine expression and plenty of subtle textural detail even if its resolution in absolute terms is a bit disappointing. In Take This Waltz, [The Essential Leonard Cohen, Columbia 497995-2] Cohen’s Voice is reproduced particularly well, stepping beyond the mundane mechanics of delivery and comprehension to the impartation of emotion – love and devastation. Cohen who nowadays ‘speaks’ more than he sings, renders the potent lyrics in a voice that truly breathes, free of mechanical restraints of the recording and instilled with a natural emphasis and inflexion, lacking only in some ambient detail embedded in the recording. Excellence in reproduction of a near spoken voice is a neat trick given that we are more critical of and more used to the sound of voices than any musical instrument and so any deficiencies or un-naturalness is easily recognised.

    Often a subject of criticism for tube amplification the bass performance of the Doge 9 is impressive. Taking “The Power of Good-Bye” and “Frozen” both Orbit inspired masterpieces from Madonna’s GHV2 [Madonna, Greatest Hits Volume 2, Warner Music Group – 9362480002] as examples, the layered soundscapes are effortlessly reconstructed, sucking the listener into their complex texture and minutiae detail even whilst the underlying beat propels the tracks momentum with solid energy. These tracks play up a particular strength of the Doge 9 which is not just dredging awesome amounts of bass out of medium efficiency speakers but painting an expansive soundstage which allows the listener to see into the recording as a representation of the event. Only when directly compared to a powerful solid state power amplifier do you sense that the Doge 9 lacks some of the propulsive punch and immediacy of the former – but it isn’t really missed because of the other strengths the Doge brings to party including wonderful density to the vocal image.

    For around US$6k (a pair) and capable of driving the vast majority of loudspeakers out there the Doge 9 certainly is an eye and ear opener which is clearly designed for musical appreciation. My hunt continues.




    Photo 2: Rear panel of Doge 9 power amplifier

  50. #150
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    Re: Music from a farther room

    Music for the NEXT room - Update 9



    This update is a continuation of my thoughts and experiments in creating a good listening environment within the confines of a small listening room measuring approximately 17ft x 11ft. Starting with the shell of a room that started life as a ground floor garage this update together with others that will follow will chart key conflicts, decisions and progress towards what I hope will be a new and rewarding approach to small room acoustics.

    This particular update will discuss interesting observations I’ve made about the critical importance of treating early reflections.


    GOOD VIBRATIONS - - BAD REFLECTIONS

    According to many text books on acoustics, not to mention a vast body of knowledge recounted elsewhere and in forums worldwide – reflections are bad and should be dealt with; usually via the use of absorbers. As the story goes, sound waves reflect from walls, floors, and ceilings, reaching our ears milliseconds after the direct sounds from the speakers and smearing those sounds. Further, echoes reverberate back and forth between parallel reflective surfaces, adding more smear and colouring the sound with spurious brightness or resonating bass hangovers. Moreover, reflections from side walls are heard as false stereo direction cues, impairing the accuracy with which a system reproduces instrumental locations.

    While there is little debate about how damaging reflections can potentially be, there is significant debate about what to do about it.

    Those that have followed the progression of my earlier audio room will recall that after evaluating bare wall (no treatment), absorbers and diffusors at the first sidewall reflection points – I far preferred the use of diffusors.

    The recent arrival of wing diffusor panels from Svanå Miljö Teknik (SMT) of Sweden once again provide me with an opportunity to observe the impact of diffusors at the first sidewall reflection points.



    TO WILLOW OR NOT TO WILLOW

    The manufacturers of my loudspeakers, Raidho Acoustics (Denmark) are often seen at exhibitions and tradeshows making use of dried bunches of willow at first sidewall reflection points. These should be seen for what they are – scatterers. Trying some myself I noted their use was a marked improvement over the bare wall alternative. In truth, the Raidho tweeters have about three times the surface area of most conventional dome tweeters and this reinforces the need for some form of early reflection treatment.




    Photo 1: Locating the first sidewall reflection point using light & mirror & use of willow ‘diffusion’



    But can we better the willow?

    I have been fascinated for some time with the work of Svanå Miljö Teknik of Sweden. A friend of mine in Singapore, who is something of a lay expert in acoustics, first introduced me to their work about 18 months ago by bringing a couple of replica wing panels to my audio room for demonstration. Replacing my existing sidewall diffusors with the wing panels was a revelation. Just ten seconds into a reference audio track I looked my friend in the eye and told him I needed these panels.

    What spurred this call? Simple, I was hearing more from the recording than I’ve ever heard.

    So, enquiring minds ask why, to which the reply went:

    “Diffusion sustains sound in the room longer and at a more even decay pattern and with lower amplitude. SMT’s acoustic treatment concept differs from many traditional approaches. Traditionally LEDE theorists believe that early reflections in the 5-30 millisecond time range should be reduced in order to receive more direct sound from speaker, and that the diffusion sound field after 30 millisecond is good for maintain liveness of the room. However, SMT theory is that reflection within 5-30 milliseconds should remain and reflection after 30 millisecond should attenuated, because room reflection between 5-50 millisecond are actually helping the slower brain to make sense of what our ear hear, while room reflection after 50 millisecond our brain will treat it as echo (Haas effect) causing listener confusion via reduced intelligibility and clarity.”




    Photo 2: White coloured SMT wing diffusors in place at 1st sidewall reflection point



    THE RESULTS & NEXT STEPS

    I could not be happier with the impact of SMT wing diffusors at the 1st sidewall reflection point. Continued listening has confirmed within the context of my room and compared with absorption / no treatment at all and rudimentary scattering devices, the resolution, in particular resolved micro detail and ambient information, is far superior and this seems to benefit all recordings – but particularly poor CD recordings which often lack air and spatial depth and tend to decode as a thinly dimensioned central homogenized cluster or worse audibly appear tethered to the loudspeakers.

    What is so clearly audibly different ought to be measurable and indeed it was. Chart 1 below plots two z-weighted frequency response traces for the room. The green trace is bare wall; the yellow trace with two SMT diffusors sited at first sidewall reflection points. While specified with a working range of 350Hz to 16KHz as evidenced below I measured improvements below and above these limits.




    Chart 1: Measuring the FR difference, bare wall vs. wing diffusor via XTZ Pro II analyser. Vast improvement while room still quite reflective.



    As I have a number of SMT panels I plan to place others at various other locations in the room to observe their impact.
    Borresen Acoustics Loudspeakers, Borresen Model 01 Compact monitor loudspeakers with Ansuz Darkz T2s Supreme resonance control, Audio Video Manufaktur GmbH (AVM) Inspiration amplifier & streamer, Innuos Zen MKII music server, Ansuz Acoustics cables & accessories. Please visit my system thread hosted on Audioshark for more details. Disclosure: The author is materially connected to Ansuz, Aavik & Borresen Acoustics via friendship with an owner.

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Music from a farther room

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