Thread: Bob’s System Evolution

The big changes I embarked on beginning late last winter have come together, at last. My prior system thread “Starting Point - Bob’s new room & Alexias new home” detailed my system and room acoustic remodel after moving to Oregon in December of 2013.

At first it was getting my system together after one of the moving vans (with my audio rig) was stolen. Then we wrestled getting the room remodeled from the studs out. The key components slowly changed and I made probably the biggest change moving to an Etsuro Gold cartridge and CS Port phon stage with a bespoke LFD phono cable.

When I first joined this forum there was a group who met in person at Rhapsody Audio in NYC. I met some fellow sharks, and the proprietor Bob Visintainer. I had an occasion to visit Bob again a couple years back — my wife was in NYC for business and ruptured her appendix. Being the strong woman she is she toughed out the pain for three days until her business was complete. We’d spoken daily about her discomfort and pain, finally she agreed to visit urgent care before boarding a flight home. She was rushed to NYU Langone and spent a week in critical care having cooked up a nice dose of peritonitis.

I flew out and when she was finally ready to be released, well, you know that isn’t a matter of paying at the counter. Its a process which is always going to take several hours. I told my sweet wife I needed to hear some music and called Bob @ Rhapsody. Bob said “come on by” and we visited for a couple hours. He had some Goldmund speakers hooked up and we played cuts via Roon/Tidal. After a bit Bob hooked up some interesting speakers I'd never heard of from Italy — Diesis “Roma.” I wasn’t really paying attention as I told the tale of my wife. But then the music really got my attention. The sound was so different from my Wilson’s — just effortless! The music just filled the room with such ease. I was gobsmacked!

This was NOT music to my wife’s ears. She, being the “Minister of Finance” (MoF) frowned on the idea of adding new speakers. For the next several months I couldn’t get the sound of the Diesis out of my head. I told all the guys in the Portland Audio Club of these most intriguing speakers. Time passed and finally new speakers were beginning to make sense. The MoF begrudgingly was starting to yield to the idea.

With the idea of new speakers taking hold, then came the question “what new speakers?” Certainly I wanted to hear the Diesis again. Wilson was due to upgrade the Alexia, v2 was reaching the end of the typical 5 year life cycle, and Alexx V was introduced. AvantGarde, which I’d heard at RMAF were on the list, Evolution Acoustics, Magico, Kharma. So many to choose from. I started to see chatter about Alsyvox, and the crazy new Bayz caught my attention. Ugh, choosing a new speaker was a seeming daunting task that was going to require some time and some travel. Then the damn Covids came calling, f’ing up the world on a scale we’d never have imagined.

So it was late February I told my wife “the pandemic seems to be good for some in the audio business” with folks staying home making home more comfortable was driving home improvement businesses. I told my wife “Bob in Manhattan seems to be thriving, he’s opening remote listening rooms across the county.” She looks at me and says “you should do that.” “WHAT,” I asked, “are you kidding?” She said she noticed the outgo last year with the cartridge, phono stage, and cable purchases, maybe I should find a way to fund my hobby.

I had already made a habit of inviting audio geeks over to listen to music. Most members of the Portland Audio Club had visited multiple times to hear system changes/additions. I greatly enjoy snacks and maybe a glass of wine then spinning some of the black vinyl, so I decided to learn what was involved in this “remote listening room” venture. The upside was buying a bunch of new gear and multiple pairs of speakers. The downside was buying a bunch of new gear, and multiple pairs of speakers — and selling off the old gear.

The result… I now have a significantly upgraded system consisting of Pilium electronics from Greece, and speakers from Alsyvox, Bayz, and Diesis. All European brands that would be very hard to hear outside an audio show or visit to NYC. Everything is finally getting run-in. I feel the electronics still have some changes to go through, but the Pilium kit is exceptional and a huge upgrade vs. my prior Audio Research. I would never have imagined having three different, unique speakers to get to know, in my own room. So far, all are exceptional, and yet each presents the music in their own way. I’m a long way from being able to say if I have a favorite.

Granted, I have vested interest. But I’m still an audiophile who enjoys wagging my tongue a little about what I’m hearing adding new pieces to my system. I just never imagined such a wholesale change or having multiple speakers to choose from. I hope as I describe this adventure it isn’t taken as unabashed promotion, but rather my unabashed enthusiasm and joy of discovery. I’m sure y’all will make your own judgements.

Originally Posted by Mike

So, you’re getting a piece of the pie? Are you a formal business partner? An official dealer now? I thought it was far more informal as it was never really spelled out clearly. It’s all very confusing, if not a bit odd. Is the plan to sell/push the distribution products rather than the retail products? Bigger pie I guess….

Glad you’re enjoying your new venture.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Hi Mike,

To answer, yes, there is a profit motive. With my having purchased all this new kit there is a hope that, over time, I have a chance to recoup some of the investment. Anyone who comes to listen and has an interest in purchasing will deal with Rhapsody in NYC. Should they buy something I will receive a small percentage of profits.

But as my wife suggested — “you’re already doing it”, hosting listening sessions is pretty common for me. It is one of the joys of this hobby, for me at least. I would feel very selfish having all these spanky audio toys and not sharing the joy of music with friends.

I am not a dealer, nor a distributor. Just a place on the west coast for audiophiles to hear unique kit they’d not have access to.

Hi Jim, I’m hoping to dial in placement for each speaker to sound its best (in this room). If someone visiting wants me to move things about I am happy to do so. I can only work with what I have, and in this case I’m happy to have done the acoustic remodel several years back and the sound of all of these speakers in-room, so far, is remarkable. I probably have the Alsyvox dialed in, still tinkering with Bayz, and Diesis too. I’m sure Bob, when he visits, will have some thoughts on placement if he thinks it can be improved. I didn’t know you and Bob go way back until recently.

I’ve considered having you make a visit, I am a novice at setup. I have a small circle of audio buddies who have great ears and who’ve been in the business before. Its as much for me as visitors — I get to listen to these terrific speakers and I want to hear all they can offer.

My room is unique, it isn’t a sealed rectangle but all that was considered in the algorithm Bonnie used when modeling the room. The back of the room opens to stairs on one side, a hallway to the other. Curtains with acoustic fabric can be closed across those openings.

Originally Posted by Mike

Thank you for clarifying. It’s not uncommon for a client to tell their dealer “if you ever have someone in my area who wants to hear….”

I’ve taken a few up on their offer and no, I would not pay any a commission, they love to do it, love to show off their system and never once asked for anything. Most recently, a customer with a pair of Trio’s did a demo for a customer of mine since we don’t have them on the floor. I know of several other dealers who do this all the time. Without compensation, I feel things will be more authentic.

So pardon me, if I say, it’s all very confusing.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I hear you Mike. I’d have been happy to host anyone to hear new kit. But, in this case the difference is I have paid for three pairs of speakers, not one. It is an interesting model we are exploring. I guess we’ll all see how it turns out. My wife is a commercial banker, she thinks its a brilliant idea.

Still, for me its an opportunity to do what I love as a retirement gig. She hopes it’ll keep me out of the pool halls.

Love the room and the setting.
But baffled about the thought of your using somebody else’s site to promote sales that benefit you.
Shouldn’t you create your own website to promote your new venture instead of piggy banking on somebody else’s site?

The Alsyvox “Botticelli X” (the X is for the external crossovers you can see beside each panel) is a truly world class speaker. A panel that can do bass , in this case down to 22hz. And with grip, drive, and authority!

I have a reference track for bass… Stevie Ray Vaughn’s version of “Tin Pan Alley” from the 45 rpm vinyl. There is a low, growling, almost groaning bass line throughout the song. My Wilson Alexia could not resolve it. I thought maybe my room was to blame. I heard it up at Mike Lavigne’s place on his remarkable system and learned what it can sound like with capable speakers and electronics. (Yeah, those big Evolution Acoustics with DartZeel are something every audiophile should hear. Outstanding! Mike’s system really showed me the view from the top of the mountain.)

The Alsyvox handle that cut without flinching — its remarkable a panel can do that. That bass line is rendered perfectly, everything I heard on MikeL’s big system was present. I had the same goosebumps after the song was over as I did hearing it at MikeL’s place. And I’ve heard it now on quite a few systems. That a panel would deliver that isn’t something I expected. When I played that cut for some friends I heard a lot of “thuds” I didn’t recognize before, then i looked over to see a lot of chins on the floor!

Originally Posted by Bobvin

Hi Jim, I’m hoping to dial in placement for each speaker to sound its best (in this room). If someone visiting wants me to move things about I am happy to do so. I can only work with what I have, and in this case I’m happy to have done the acoustic remodel several years back and the sound of all of these speakers in-room, so far, is remarkable. I probably have the Alsyvox dialed in, still tinkering with Bayz, and Diesis too. I’m sure Bob, when he visits, will have some thoughts on placement if he thinks it can be improved. I didn’t know you and Bob go way back until recently.

I’ve considered having you make a visit, I am a novice at setup. I have a small circle of audio buddies who have great ears and who’ve been in the business before. Its as much for me as visitors — I get to listen to these terrific speakers and I want to hear all they can offer.

My room is unique, it isn’t a sealed rectangle but all that was considered in the algorithm Bonnie used when modeling the room. The back of the room opens to stairs on one side, a hallway to the other. Curtains with acoustic fabric can be closed across those openings.

Now that's a great room!

Originally Posted by nicoff

Love the room and the setting.
But baffled about the thought of your using somebody else’s site to promote sales that benefit you.
Shouldn’t you create your own website to promote your new venture instead of piggy banking on somebody else’s site?

I respect your comments Nicoff. I have been a “Shark” from the time before Mike went commercial. I am not aware the site had become something related only to Mike’s brands. As an audiophile first, I love talking about, reading about, and exploring new gear. Not very often an opportunity comes along to own three pairs of unique speakers. And… I expose my interests, nothing is being hidden.

There’s lots of gear in the world Mike doesn’t carry, and the Sharks website invites all, to my knowledge, as long as they are respectful. I’ve never dissed Mike in any way, in fact I respect the hell out of him opening brick & mortar store in today’s world. I watched as he cycled tons of gear through his place learning and deciding what brand’s he’d carry. That takes a lot of balls, and his business acumen is obvious as he appears to be thriving. I’ve watched a couple other stores open and close, so I know its not just a matter of becoming a dealer and opening the doors. Mike is sincere and offers great service to his customers.

I chose embark on this new adventure as much to learn as anything else. I’m 64, and our retirement is secure, so if I don’t make a dime I really don’t care. For me its about having fun and sharing awesome sounding kit with fellow audio geeks. If I am able to fund adding a few new toys that’ll be great. I’ll still get those things even if I don’t get anything from this venture—just at a slower pace. And if I don’t like it, or it turns out to be something less than I envision—I’ll pick what I like best and sell the rest.

Additionally, if I were to buy new kit and only one pair of speakers, and talk about it on the forum, then move on to another pair of speakers, then another that would be like, oh, maybe Jay and his YouTube videos. You don’t think for a minute Jay isn’t setting himself up the way Mike did originally, gaining street cred having cycled lots of gear through his place? I might have a wrong take on Jay, but I seem to recall him mentioning something like that in one of his videos. I could be mistaken. His YouTube site is most likely monetized, yet I’ve not heard anyone make any mention that he’s profiting from posting on the AudioSharks. Why else would he ask for “likes” and “subscriptions” to his channel? He’s cool though, I get the impression he has a lot of fun with it and is sincere.

And here in the Pacific NW, there simply are not many brick & mortar stores that don’t carry the commonly available US brands. I sort of grew out those offerings and wanted to expand my horizons—this opportunity came along so I jumped at it. And I don't see myself cutting into Mike's business at Suncoast—we're on opposite sides of a very large continent. The number of folks who'd travel to visit me isn't likely to be huge which is fine, I'm not trying to act as a brick and mortar store or even a home based dealer.

Originally Posted by mep

The reality is that Bob is covering new ground with his "different" relationship with Rhapsody along with the other "remote listening room" owners who took the plunge. The other reality is that Bob is using audio forums as his marketing tool. He doesn't even have his own website to drive potential "customers" to when he makes his posts on audio forums about his new business venture. This can certainly be viewed as parasitic behavior.



Mike actually has a Suncoast Audio website in addition to the Audio Shark forum so it's not fair to call Audio Shark a Suncoast Audio website. Maybe Bob should start his own audio forum and develop a website to market the products he is potentially helping Rhapsody sell. I find his current parasitic marketing plan to be a bit unseemly.

With due respect, I am happy to abide by Mike’s constraints should he suggest them, and I have — my signature clearly states my affiliation with Rhapsody. I have not driven people to or mentioned Rhapsody’s website unless I have been asked, out of respect for Mike and Suncoast.

But, when a new visitor lands on the AudioShark web page he is presented with a blurb describing the site and the intentions of the site. Some of the language in that blurb includes:

The AudioShark forum was created for sharing the passion of high-end Audio. We have Audiophiles from all over the world participating and sharing their knowledge. From novice to experts, you will find a friendly environment for discussing about High End Audio…

and

At AudioShark, we also have incorporated an exciting Marketplace where members can peruse terrific buys on used gear, as well as meet dealers and discuss the purchase of new gear.

and

Audioshark is a community of like minded individuals. Audioshark welcomes participation from all manufacturers and owners of all brands and products. It is our belief that online forums provide a community of like minded audiophiles and music lovers to encourage the growth of this wonderful hobby.

I have tried to be consistent with those intentions.

Originally Posted by mep

It will probably be the visitors favorite room too.

mep, you’ve seen through my plot… here I thought I was going to be able to lure seasoned, experienced, wealthy audiophiles to my lair, get 'em drunk with my cellar full of cheap box wine (that I’ve put into bottles with labels I created on my computer), then force them to listen to counterfeit audio gear (just look at that Pilium amp—that case is big enough to hide all manner of cheap home theater type receivers!)

Then, what, maybe steal their wallets?

My journey as an audiophile has been limited to what I had exposure to. Someone considering spending $100,000 or more on speakers will most likely want to know what’s out there other than Wilson, Magico, Focal, etc. Having the Alsyvoz, Diesis, and Bayz in house now for a few weeks I can say they are all worthy competitors, each different, each exceptional in their own ways. If you were in the market for new speakers, wouldn’t you want to hear what’s available?

One thing I love about this hobby is that, for the most part, it is populated by nice people who share a love of music and gear. There are jerks and assholes too, fortunately they are pretty rare. Someone considering $100k for new speakers, or similar amounts for components, isn’t going to be talked into anything. I sure as hell don’t have the desire or energy to convince anyone of anything—a benefit of age and wisdom I suppose. People make their own decisions; its nice to have multiple data points from which to do so.

West of Chicago or Dallas, there are only a couple places to hear Pilium, Alsyvox, Diesis, and Bayz. I am blessed to have a room where folks can hear this kit at its best, and a willingness to share.

Please mep, do not come. You won’t like it. (or me, apparently)

Originally Posted by Bobvin

I chose embark on this new adventure as much to learn as anything else. I’m 64, and our retirement is secure, so if I don’t make a dime I really don’t care. For me its about having fun and sharing awesome sounding kit with fellow audio geeks. If I am able to fund adding a few new toys that’ll be great. I’ll still get those things even if I don’t get anything from this venture—just at a slower pace. And if I don’t like it, or it turns out to be something less than I envision—I’ll pick what I like best and sell the rest.

Oh please - lets call this for what it is - you have made a deal with Rhapsody - this is a business deal - pure & simple - to call it anything else is just BS. All anyone who questions my summation needs to do is wander over to WBF & read your posts on there. The " lay down misère" is the Pre Amp - Amp/s & three completely different sets of speakers - each north of $100k - come from Rhapsody. This business model was tried in AUS a number of years ago by a particular company - it has since quietly lapsed into a coma.

Originally Posted by Rob181

Oh please - lets call this for what it is - you have made a deal with Rhapsody - this is a business deal - pure & simple - to call it anything else is just BS. All anyone who questions my summation needs to do is wander over to WBF & read your posts on there. The " lay down misère" is the Pre Amp - Amp/s & three completely different sets of speakers - each north of $100k - come from Rhapsody. This business model was tried in AUS a number of years ago by a particular company - it has since quietly lapsed into a coma.

Yeah, so? In the thread I affirmed that there is a profit motive, so yes a business arrangement has been made. I am not hiding that. But for you to question my motivations is lame, we have never met, never spoken, you know nothing about me.

And the worst that could happen is I don’t like it and sell everything. Why do you care? The only person I have to please is my wife, who encouraged this adventure from the beginning. Tell me again what is bad about having three world class speakers and some killer components to listen to? Have you heard them? When was the last time you had three pairs of, as you say, $100k speakers in your home for extended audition. What did you learn about them — please share something valuable rather than sniping.

Originally Posted by Rob181

Oh please - lets call this for what it is - you have made a deal with Rhapsody - this is a business deal - pure & simple - to call it anything else is just BS. All anyone who questions my summation needs to do is wander over to WBF & read your posts on there. The " lay down misère" is the Pre Amp - Amp/s & three completely different sets of speakers - each north of $100k - come from Rhapsody. This business model was tried in AUS a number of years ago by a particular company - it has since quietly lapsed into a coma.

Who cares if its a business proposition, no one should work for free I would hope Bobvin is paid something. That said, somehow I don't think the money involved will change his life. I just noticed Scott Walker opened a store in TX in addition to his California store. Is his TX location a 'real store' and is it for profit? I hope so. I've purchased gear from both Mike Bovaird and Bob Visintainer (the main Bob) and they are top notch at what they do. If all 'dealers' actually provided the kind of customer care I received from them this industry will be in great shape.

I won't indulge in what's right or what's wrong or if someone has crossed the line in this forum or if there is conflict of interest - that is for the site owner Mike to decide. But what I will say is that your room Bob is fantastic and very warm & inviting. I would be blessed to have a room like that.

However, I do have a question for you Bob - out of the three great speakers, which one do you personally listen the most and your personal liking ?

Originally Posted by Devg

I won't indulge in what's right or what's wrong or if someone has crossed the line in this forum or if there is conflict of interest - that is for the site owner Mike to decide. But what I will say is that your room Bob is fantastic and very warm & inviting. I would be blessed to have a room like that.

However, I do have a question for you Bob - out of the three great speakers, which one do you personally listen the most and your personal liking ?

First, thanks for the kind words. As to your question... finally somebody wants to know about the SOUND!

Unfortunately, I believe it would be premature to give much of a definitive statement, as things are just starting to come 'round with respect to burn-in. The Alsyvox with their external crossovers still likely have a ways to go, I'd say they could probably use another 100 hours with about 150 hours so far. The Diesis, too, likely have a little further to go. The Bayz are probably pretty damn close.

Then there is the Pilium pre and power amp. The pre-amp is probably pretty well settled, I had it for a time before the amp arrived. I was lucky to have a friend loan me a pair of MBL mono amps so we could hear the Diesis which were the first speakers to have arrived. A little bit later I was loaned a DartZeel NHB-108 v2 from Jonathan Tinn here in Portland (who is the DartZeel distributor.)

(And a shout-out to Jonathan whom I've never met—and as I said before this hobby is mostly made up of kind and sincere people. Being loaned a $53,000 amp from someone you've never met? How great is that! Thank you Jonathan I enjoyed my time with the amp.)

Now the big Pilium Achilles amp (Mighty Achilles!) is getting run-in, but it, with its HUGE capacitors, is taking the longest. Its coming around after having the typical ups and downs along the way. This Pilium kit is the real deal, another level altogether vs. my prior Audio Research Reference components. It is amazingly neutral, allowing the qualities of each speaker to be heard without coloration of the amplification. It took about 30 seconds of listening to the pre-amp to recognize, right out of the box, the huge distance between it and the ARC, which I loved.

The Diesis Roma I'm in love with—they are very, very special. Effortless, soulful, romantic. The Alsyvox—holy hell these are SPECTACULAR speakers. A planar that can go to 22hz eliminates any need for a sub. Between the Diesis and Alsyvox, at this early stage, I would offer a Venn Diagram, with the Diesis slightly left of center if the line split between subjective and objective, and the Alsyvox to the right of center, with a big overlap in the middle. So far, I could live happily with either. Diesis maybe slightly more romantic, Alsyvox slightly more analytical. They will appeal differently depending on your taste.

Then there are the Bayz. These are speakers that will fool you. Sure, the looks are super cool, but they play way bigger than the drivers would suggest. I'm still tinkering with placement—in my room too close to the corner the bass can get a bit of overhang, too far out the bass becomes too reticent which shifts the tonal character. I think I have them close, at this point it is fine tuning and we all know small changes sometimes are all that is needed to get everything to snap into focus. That said, the omni-directional design just fills the room with sound. I've never owned anything like it myself, though I have heard my friends MBLs so recognize the sound but my room and their rooms are waaaay different. And the Bayz radial spearker (BRS) is very different from the approach MBL uses. I'd say the Bayz model I have, the smaller Courante 2.0 (at ~ half the price of the other speakers), gives up only a wee-bit of heft or "gravitas". For most rooms however you'd never know it, and only in comparing with the others would that difference be evident. The bigger Bayz, the Counterpoint 2.0 model, I think would wipe away any percieved lack of heft, but it could be way too much for a smaller room. A GREAT benefit of the omni design is the sweet spot is quite huge, you don't have to be anchored in the perfect position.

Again, these are but early, first takes on forming opinions of each speaker.

Originally Posted by Bobvin

Yeah, so? In the thread I affirmed that there is a profit motive, so yes a business arrangement has been made. I am not hiding that. But for you to question my motivations is lame, we have never met, never spoken, you know nothing about me.

Your motivation was not questioned - your hypocrisy in attempting to deflect from the fact this is a business decision on a website owned & managed by an indirect competitor is - the thread title is all the evidence needed to validate same. As for the question of whether that is morally ethical - others can judge for themselves.

Originally Posted by Randy Myers

Honestly, I would believe that a business decision would indicating that profit and making money are a prime motive. I have never meet Bob, but from several conversations and discussions on this forum over the years I am 1000% sure that he does not need the money.... which means there are other motives, as have been discussed above.

Whether Bob "needs" the money or not is not relevant - the hypocrisy in how it was presented was - your net worth shouldn't change your ethical business values.

Originally Posted by Rob181

Your motivation was not questioned - your hypocrisy in attempting to deflect from the fact this is a business decision on a website owned & managed by an indirect competitor is - the thread title is all the evidence needed to validate same. As for the question of whether that is morally ethical - others can judge for themselves.

At this time this is still an open forum. See post #20 above.

I have no dog in this fight, but I applaud Bob's initiative to dive deep into the rabbit hole and bring others along for the ride. Plus I dig his room (and his wine cellar!). Keep it coming Bob, pending Mike's higher authority in these matters.

Anybody stopped to think about whos dime this site survives on? Kind of simplifies things into perspective really.
If there is a commercial factor involved, perhaps they should "pay & display"!

Originally Posted by Randy Myers

Who knows, maybe sometime I can get up to have a listen... you in bay area... or Seattle, I can't remember.

Portland. All(most) all are welcome! I am outside the city 20 miles, peaceful here. The Willamette Valley wine country is nearby. Your wife if she loves music is welcome too, or she can stay at the Allison Inn in wine country and do the spa and wine tasting thing while we listen to music. Anyone is welcome, there are no obligations.

Originally Posted by Bobvin

Portland. All(most) all are welcome! I am outside the city 20 miles, peaceful here. The Willamette Valley wine country is nearby. Your wife if she loves music is welcome too, or she can stay at the Allison Inn in wine country and do the spa and wine tasting thing while we listen to music. Anyone is welcome, there are no obligations.

I can highly recommend the Allison Inn (my wife and I stayed there before a balloon ride across the Willamette Valley). And no, I have no commercial relationship with the Allison.

Originally Posted by BlueFox

Damn. I just checked and I joined in May 2013. Where did the time go? Sorry, end of off topic nostalgia.

It was June of 2013 that I joined. Lots of changes — including my hairline. Some turns grey, some turns loose!