The Future of Audio Research

**Mike** · May 4, 2023, 02:01 PM

It’s going from bad to worse it seems….

Minn. Bank Asks Court for $1.5M+ Judgment Against Audio Research Corp & Trent Suggs - Strata-gee.com

There is a lot in this article to digest.

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**the professor** · May 4, 2023, 02:27 PM

Well damn - my wishful thoughts were wrong. Looks like bankruptcy is right around the corner. Hopefully this mystery investor decides ARC is worth saving.

**still-one** · May 4, 2023, 03:29 PM

My opinion is that there will be a buyer, how it al works out over time is another story.

Lets hope the next owner knows how to run an business.

**Dizzie** · May 4, 2023, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by still-one

My opinion is that there will be a buyer, how it al works out over time is another story.

Lets hope the next owner knows how to run an business.

Mike,

Haven't you always wanted to own a top tier audio electronics company? Here is your chance to re-engineer ARC to be the perfect companion to Clarisys.

**Mike** · May 4, 2023, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by Dizzie

Mike,

Haven't you always wanted to own a top tier audio electronics company? Here is your chance to re-engineer ARC to be the perfect companion to Clarisys.

Yes! But not one riddled with debt and liabilities that builds tube equipment solely based on Russian tubes that someone else controls the supply of.

I have a lot to say on this topic, but I’m biting my tongue.

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**Mike** · May 4, 2023, 03:55 PM

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**Mike** · May 4, 2023, 03:56 PM

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**Mike** · May 4, 2023, 03:57 PM

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**Mike** · May 4, 2023, 03:57 PM

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**Mike** · May 4, 2023, 04:10 PM

Full public court records:

Document Search - Minnesota Court Records Online (MCRO)

Search for case number:

27CV234399

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**the professor** · May 4, 2023, 05:51 PM

HA

Not to mention if you ran the company it would have to move to Florida cause I know you wouldn't go up there into the cold.

Originally Posted by Mike

Yes! But not one riddled with debt and liabilities that builds tube equipment solely based on Russian tubes that someone else controls the supply of.

I have a lot to say on this topic, but I’m biting my tongue.

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**W9TR** · May 4, 2023, 11:24 PM

Interesting reading... AR has $1.6M of secured and another $1.0M of unsecured liability, lost money in 2022, and continues to bleed cash. The secured creditor is more than anxious and is attempting to pierce the corporate veil by going after any assets Suggs and his TWS company may have outside of AR. Whew, this is very messy.

**MikeCh** · May 5, 2023, 12:19 AM

Been reading the dirty laundry as it's exposed on this site and others. I'm saddened that such an icon like ARC with all of its historical accomplishments is now on the brink. Crushing.

Best wishes for some sort of turn-around or re-birth of the brand for both employees and managerial direction.

**Mr Peabody** · May 5, 2023, 04:33 PM

It will reappear in a couple years in the Wal-Mart electronics isle. LOL Remember Memorex, Acoustic Research or Sansui, amongst others.

Originally Posted by MikeCh

Been reading the dirty laundry as it's exposed on this site and others. I'm saddened that such an icon like ARC with all of its historical accomplishments is now on the brink. Crushing.

Best wishes for some sort of turn-around or re-birth of the brand for both employees and managerial direction.

**Mr Peabody** · May 5, 2023, 04:35 PM

Doesn't BAT and a couple others use those Russian tubes as well? I wonder if any of them have changed circuits or plan to.

**Mike** · May 5, 2023, 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

Doesn't BAT and a couple others use those Russian tubes as well? I wonder if any of them have changed circuits or plan to.

Yes and our warehouse racks are full of BAT gear that’s been traded in

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**rrwmd** · May 5, 2023, 04:44 PM

Whew, now I’m glad I moved on from my REF 6 pre and REF 160M monos when I did a few years ago.

**the professor** · May 5, 2023, 09:51 PM

The thing that surprises me the most is that hi-end audio has been flourishing the last few years. The industry has been doing well.

**gadawg** · May 5, 2023, 10:34 PM

I’m assuming the concern is the supply of 6H30 Russian tubes? Just re-tubed all my BAT gear with zero issues and have spares for quite a while thanks goodness. Doesn’t VAC use some Russian tubes as well like the 6SN7? I mean (and I’m asking here) aren’t the majority of all new tubes today made by EHX in Russia? Just wondering as i would assume there would be some level of concern for all brands of tube gear with current world affairs and not just for BAT or ARC?

George

**Porsche** · May 6, 2023, 09:00 AM

this has nothing to do with Russian tubes, that's absurd IMO

**Mike** · May 6, 2023, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by gadawg

I’m assuming the concern is the supply of 6H30 Russian tubes? Just re-tubed all my BAT gear with zero issues and have spares for quite a while thanks goodness. Doesn’t VAC use some Russian tubes as well like the 6SN7? I mean (and I’m asking here) aren’t the majority of all new tubes today made by EHX in Russia? Just wondering as i would assume there would be some level of concern for all brands of tube gear with current world affairs and not just for BAT or ARC?

George

Originally Posted by Porsche

this has nothing to do with Russian tubes, that's absurd IMO

6SN7’s are easily found made in China.

Russian tube prices have double, even quadrupled in price in some cases and there are rarely, if ever, Chinese equivalents. NOS Russian Tubes are extremely rare now as the supplies have all been gobbled up. I heard a rumor a while back that ARC had also stopped selling tubes due to a supply shortage (their online store has been shut down). Maybe someone can confirm this.

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**Dizzie** · May 6, 2023, 11:02 AM

I doubt 6SN7’s are a problem. I would think KT88, KT120, and KT 150 supplies are more of a problem. If someone knows where I can get affordable and good KT88s not made in Russia, I would appreciate knowing.

**mep** · May 6, 2023, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Dizzie

I doubt 6SN7’s are a problem. I would think KT88, KT120, and KT 150 supplies are more of a problem. If someone knows where I can get affordable and good KT88s not made in Russia, I would appreciate knowing.

I don't know what "affordable" means to you, but your KT-88 choices are limited for non-Russian made tubes. JJ Tesla is once choice and Chinese made KTT-88s are another choice.

**Mike** · May 6, 2023, 12:06 PM

I talked to Eunice Kron the other day and even she doesn’t have four KR KT88’s! I’m sure next week at Munich she will be holding court as usual. Love it.

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**mep** · May 6, 2023, 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

I talked to Eunice Kron the other day and even she doesn’t have four KR KT88’s! I’m sure next week at Munich she will be holding court as usual. Love it.

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$315.00 each?

**Mike** · May 6, 2023, 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by mep

$315.00 each?

Yup. They are good ones.

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**nicoff** · May 6, 2023, 08:18 PM

Looks like the marketing guys convinced a money guy that they could purchase ARC and make it a success. Maybe not too difficult since they are in marketing.
But the marketing guys knew nothing about running a business and the money guy knew nothing about audio.
Somehow I am not surprised at the outcome.

**MichaelsMinute** · May 6, 2023, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by nicoff

Looks like the marketing guys convinced a money guy that they could purchase ARC and make it a success. Maybe not too difficult since they are in marketing.
But the marketing guys knew nothing about running a business and the money guy knew nothing about audio.
Somehow I am not surprised at the outcome.

Wasn't it a marketing guy (former salesman) who bought ARC?

"Audio Research sold by McIntosh Group to former sales director
By What Hi-Fi? published August 25, 2020
It will be owned by TWS Enterprises, a private company owned wholly by Trent Suggs, former Audio Research sales director"

**Pearce Harrison** · May 6, 2023, 09:24 PM

Western electric is gearing up to make various tubes. It would be a sad day to see Audio Research go away, here's hoping that a company like WE might acquire them.

**gadawg** · May 6, 2023, 11:26 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

6SN7’s are easily found made in China.

Not sure I find much more comfort in depending on Chinese tubes as our relations there aren't heading in the right direction either. I'm hoping that once the war in Ukraine is over tube prices go back down. Just found and ordered some NOS Russian tubes from Ukraine ... I realize they may or may not ever show up ...

George

**W9TR** · May 7, 2023, 09:22 AM

All this talk of Russian tubes got me to thinking. A total retube of everything in both my systems is a lot of tubes: 30 KT-88’s, 14 12AT7’s, 9 12AX7A’s and 2 12BH7A’s. I checked all the online tube vendors and there are no Russian KT-88’s from New Sensor available now:
Sovtek
Svetlana
Mullard
Electro-Harmonix
Gold Lion

are all out of stock as of this AM.

Apart from boutique manufacturers like Elrog in Germany, that leaves JJ in Slovakia as the only European source now. They also make the Telefunken branded tubes.

The price of a JJ KT-88 is $70, up from $30 a few years ago.

The last Gold Lion tubes I bought in 2020 were $80 each, up from $40 a few years ago.

The situation with small signal tubes 12A*7 is better but prices have tripled in some cases.

Shuguang in China has not re-started production, leaving Psvane and LinLai as the only manufacturers there.

**Porsche** · May 7, 2023, 09:25 AM

ahh, the beauty of solid state, love my burmester

**Mike** · May 7, 2023, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by W9TR

All this talk of Russian tubes got me to thinking. A total retube of everything in both my systems is a lot of tubes: 30 KT-88’s, 14 12AT7’s, 9 12AX7A’s and 2 12BH7A’s. I checked all the online tube vendors and there are no Russian KT-88’s from New Sensor available now:
Sovtek
Svetlana
Mullard
Electro-Harmonix
Gold Lion

are all out of stock as of this AM.

Apart from boutique manufacturers like Elrog in Germany, that leaves JJ in Slovakia as the only source now. They also make the Telefunken branded tubes.

The price of a JJ KT-88 is $70, up from $30 a few years ago.

The last Gold Lion tubes I bought in 2020 were $80 each, up from $40 a few years ago.

The situation with small signal tubes 12A*7 is better but prices have tripled in some cases.

As I was saying…tubes/supply of Russian tubes does have something to do with it. There are no Chinese equivalents for most of the tubes ARC relies on for their gear.

I was thinking the other day, “why is the bank so hung up on going after Trent personally?” I had heard the company was on the market for quite some time and only one person was interested due to the debt load on the company. Then it dawned on me, the bank filing now are likely in second position for any corporate loans. So, purely speculating here, there could be corporate loans which were more than likely taken out by the McIntosh Group when they owned ARC, and assumed by the new owner when the company was purchased. There are also now personal loans taken out to either repay money cobbled together from family and friends to buy the company and/or keep the company operating. I’m guessing/speculating, the bank filings are for the bank in first position on the personal guarantees and second position on any corporate loans. Again, pure speculation.

So how does this all play into a potential sale or inevitable liquidation?

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**rrwmd** · May 7, 2023, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by Pearce Harrison

Western electric is gearing up to make various tubes. It would be a sad day to see Audio Research go away, here's hoping that a company like WE might acquire them.

They've been saying this for several years now but as far as I know they're still only making 300Bs.

**W9TR** · May 7, 2023, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by rrwmd

They've been saying this for several years now but as far as I know they're still only making 300Bs.

The latest WE announcement was around 12AX7A’s. About a year ago. But here’s the thing. If you look at all the articles in audio magazines and the latest one in Wired, a trend appears.

No one has been inside the Georgia factory. Nobody. All the glowing (sic) articles use pictures supplied by WE. There appears to be little physical evidence of ongoing production there.

So as a potential customer I asked them if I could have a factory tour before buying. No dice. I can get a nice t-shirt, though.

So, don’t hold your breath.

**Smile** · May 7, 2023, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by the professor

The thing that surprises me the most is that hi-end audio has been flourishing the last few years. The industry has been doing well.

With more competitors and behaving like a tech industry.

**RPM-123** · May 7, 2023, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by mep

I don't know what "affordable" means to you, but your KT-88 choices are limited for non-Russian made tubes. JJ Tesla is once choice and Chinese made KTT-88s are another choice.

Sophia Electric has KT-88 tubes. I had their EL34 tubes for a while and they were quite good! Cheers.

Glenn

**Pearce Harrison** · May 7, 2023, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by W9TR

The latest WE announcement was around 12AX7A’s. About a year ago. But here’s the thing. If you look at all the articles in audio magazines and the latest one in Wired, a trend appears.

No one has been inside the Georgia factory. Nobody. All the glowing (sic) articles use pictures supplied by WE. There appears to be little physical evidence of ongoing production there.

So as a potential customer I asked them if I could have a factory tour before buying. No dice. I can get a nice t-shirt, though.

So, don’t hold your breath.

The issue with WE is not only that there is no timeline as to the production, but also the fact that they are planning on bringing these tubes to market at far higher prices than even the limited supply of Russian tubes demands. Nonetheless, if they do contribute a separate supply option, I think that would be welcome.

**mulveling** · May 7, 2023, 04:47 PM

I don't like JJ tubes, don't trust Chinese power tubes, and don't think Western Electric will be producing KT88 in quantity any time soon - and certainly at very high prices, if ever. As an audiophile with several components that require a ton of Russian KT88/KT120 and some 6H30 to fill, my hopes still lie with future Russian tube production. I'm hoping what we're seeing is just a temporarily unfavorable balance of supply vs. demand (from both sides) which will be resolved long before my considerable stash of spares is depleted. If things go really sideways, I'm confident other audiophiles will give up long before me and there will be opportunities to grab any spare tubes I might need as they hit the 2nd markets. It would be very bad for onshore tube amp manufacturing though - I'd hate to see that. The Russian tubes were an incredible combination of sound quality, price, and reliability.

**nicoff** · May 7, 2023, 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by Porsche

ahh, the beauty of solid state, love my burmester

LOL

**the professor** · May 8, 2023, 02:18 PM

Assuming you are right. The only way an investor should buy ARC would be from the bankruptcy court because that would be the only way to truly know what AR/Debt is out there. You would be buying a clean debt free company (or debt you agree to pay as part of the purchase) and the court would distribute the monies to the existing debtors as it deems fit to.

As far as the bank going for "Trent" personally - the bank needs to go after all guarantors whether they have money or not. Also, I seem to remember reading in the court docs that the bank has a perfected lien on ARC assets which would indicate they are not behind anybody else. I also don't remember seeing anything about the building they operate out of, so I assume they are leasing and/or it's in a different partnership with different lenders and isn't involved in this re-organization. It used to be a tax advantage to own the building personally and lease it to your company - no clue if that is the case these days or if that was done here.

Originally Posted by Mike

As I was saying…tubes/supply of Russian tubes does have something to do with it. There are no Chinese equivalents for most of the tubes ARC relies on for their gear.

I was thinking the other day, “why is the bank so hung up on going after Trent personally?” I had heard the company was on the market for quite some time and only one person was interested due to the debt load on the company. Then it dawned on me, the bank filing now are likely in second position for any corporate loans. So, purely speculating here, there could be corporate loans which were more than likely taken out by the McIntosh Group when they owned ARC, and assumed by the new owner when the company was purchased. There are also now personal loans taken out to either repay money cobbled together from family and friends to buy the company and/or keep the company operating. I’m guessing/speculating, the bank filings are for the bank in first position on the personal guarantees and second position on any corporate loans. Again, pure speculation.

So how does this all play into a potential sale or inevitable liquidation?

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**Mike** · May 8, 2023, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by the professor

Assuming you are right. The only way an investor should buy ARC would be from the bankruptcy court because that would be the only way to truly know what AR/Debt is out there. You would be buying a clean debt free company (or debt you agree to pay as part of the purchase) and the court would distribute the monies to the existing debtors as it deems fit to.

As far as the bank going for "Trent" personally - the bank needs to go after all guarantors whether they have money or not. Also, I seem to remember reading in the court docs that the bank has a perfected lien on ARC assets which would indicate they are not behind anybody else. I also don't remember seeing anything about the building they operate out of, so I assume they are leasing and/or it's in a different partnership with different lenders and isn't involved in this re-organization. It used to be a tax advantage to own the building personally and lease it to your company - no clue if that is the case these days or if that was done here.

Yes, they are leasing.

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**W9TR** · May 8, 2023, 08:55 PM

I think the most challenging thing for an AR resurrection is there has been no innovation for many years. Can they still do it? For example taking a Ref 150 and adding pretty meters and glass fascia is not innovation. Somewhere along the line (Fine Sounds?) they lost the recipe, not to mention their design language.

I wish them all the best and hope for a successful second act.

**nicoff** · May 9, 2023, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by W9TR

I think the most challenging thing for an AR resurrection is there has been no innovation for many years. Can they still do it? For example taking a Ref 150 and adding pretty meters and glass fascia is not innovation.
...

You hit it right on the nose. Innovation is the key.

**mulveling** · May 9, 2023, 12:04 PM

Folks are hammering on those ghost meters and lack of innovation, but what exactly do we expect for "innovation" in tube amplifiers? The new Reference amp models all implement auto-bias, which IMO is awesome and if anything has been undersold by ARC. The move to KT150 is interesting (albeit impacted by Russian tube production issues) and should increase headroom. The Reference amp range is now 80 - 160 - 320 which hits all the right points. I think the new fascia looks a LOT better than old ARC. It seems like ARC's real issues are centered on dealer relations, sales, and finance -- not the product itself.

**Mike** · May 9, 2023, 12:31 PM

I think innovation would have been to start by looking at the realities in the world.

Revamp their current tube gear to sound more like older ARC gear, more tubey if you will and redesign to use more commonly found tubes.

Rather than a low cost integrated that looks like it was designed by Mattel, how about a full line of solid state? Amp, preamp, phono. Again, the realities of the world. They could even market “solid state that sounds like your classic ARC tube gear.”

When I visited, they had us meet with their digital team to see how ARC could become the leader in digital. Both myself and another dealer shook our heads and insisted this was not the path to go on as there are companies solely dedicated to digital that will kick their ass.

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**Mike** · May 9, 2023, 02:48 PM

Audio Research Corp Assignee Files New, More Revealing Papers with Court - Strata-gee.com

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**Mr Peabody** · May 9, 2023, 03:32 PM

High end manufacturers for the most part do not switch models every year, many keep an amp or whatever in production for quite awhile, I don't see ARC being criticized for lack of innovation. For example, Pass went from .0 to .5 and now .8, and how long has the .8 been out now.

The 160M was quite the thing when shown at AXPONA. I remember several here bought them and I'm sure the thread would show most if not all on this thread praising it. I don't understand the piling on of negativity toward ARC. I don't know the difference but the 160M mkII was shown this year.

One of my favorite rooms a couple years ago was all ARC into the flagship Vandersteen. ARC IMO has always sounded good with Wilson in that room.

I also don't see how you can criticize on one hand for lack of innovation them condemn on another for wanting to provide digital which would give them a more rounded line up. I always remember ARC having a CDP or DAC, so digital doesn't seem that odd to me. There are many brands that do the same successfully.

ARC has always had a "house" sound, their sound. Though the 160M was the best ARC amp I've heard from them, paired with the Ref 10 preamp the combo still sounded like ARC. IMO to depart from their sound would be a mistake. ARC fans come to expect what they are used to.

The VXI integrated was in production for what, 20 years or more. I bet ARC paid some consultant to help design the new integrated. If I'm not mistaken the cost was to be around $5k, so I take that as an attempt to reach out with a more affordable product. That would seem to be innovation. Whether you think misguided or not.

I respect ARC but it's not my flavor but let's show some class and not kick them when they are down. Looks like maybe not to get up, that's a shame to me.

**a.wayne** · May 9, 2023, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

I think innovation would have been to start by looking at the realities in the world.

Revamp their current tube gear to sound more like older ARC gear, more tubey if you will and redesign to use more commonly found tubes.

Rather than a low cost integrated that looks like it was designed by Mattel, how about a full line of solid state? Amp, preamp, phono. Again, the realities of the world. They could even market “solid state that sounds like your classic ARC tube gear.”

When I visited, they had us meet with their digital team to see how ARC could become the leader in digital. Both myself and another dealer shook our heads and insisted this was not the path to go on as there are companies solely dedicated to digital that will kick their ass.

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ARC used to make really nice SS amps in the 90's, one was a behemoth for the apogee type crowd , very rare to see one today , very sad to see them go , saw and heard my first ARC in 1978 and they were always considered "HI-End" , distinct style and sound ...

Regards

**a.wayne** · May 9, 2023, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by mulveling

Folks are hammering on those ghost meters and lack of innovation, but what exactly do we expect for "innovation" in tube amplifiers? The new Reference amp models all implement auto-bias, which IMO is awesome and if anything has been undersold by ARC. The move to KT150 is interesting (albeit impacted by Russian tube production issues) and should increase headroom. The Reference amp range is now 80 - 160 - 320 which hits all the right points. I think the new fascia looks a LOT better than old ARC. It seems like ARC's real issues are centered on dealer relations, sales, and finance -- not the product itself.

Different world today most will not put real operating power meters, to do so would shock audiophilla ...

Regards

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