Audio Research REF6 vs. REF10 Preamp

**Alpinist** · June 24, 2016, 08:03 PM

I am in the market for a new preamp and I was wondering if anyone has done a direct comparison of the ARC REF6 and REF10? I'm interested in the differences both quantitatively and qualitatively. My current system is an Esoteric K-01X digital player, Vandersteen M7-HPA mono amps (on order) and Vandersteen 7 MKII speakers.

Thanks!

**Deafone** · June 24, 2016, 10:16 PM

I would guess Valin from TAS will comment on the differences when he reviews the Ref 6. If I was a betting man, I would bet ARC will update the Ref 10 next year. Valin is a big fan of ARC, so I would expect him to be reviewing it soon. I saw TAS is reviewing the Ref 250SE in the next issue. I think the Ref 6 hasn't been out long enough though for a review. Looks like Fremer is reviewing the Ref 6 and Ref Phono 3 in the future, but I don't think he has a Ref 10 on hand like Valin.

**the professor** · June 25, 2016, 11:48 AM

From what I've read on the internet the REF6 is closer to the REF10 than it is to the REF5.

I haven't done a direct comparison between the two but when I heard the REF6 the first time, I thought to myself that it was closer to the REF10, but that was going from memory.

**mep** · June 25, 2016, 12:21 PM

I wish I had a Ref 10 on hand for the comparison. I did write my preliminary thoughts about the Ref 6 and how it compared to the Ref 5SE that I owned for PFO and you can find that here: http://positive-feedback.com/reviews...-6-line-stage/

The common 'wisdom' on the audio street is that the Ref 6 is closer in sound to the Ref 10 than it is to the Ref 5SE. If you read my preliminary thoughts on PFO, you will see that I think there is a big gap between the Ref 6 and the Ref 5SE with the Ref 6 moving ahead by several large steps. My initial reaction to putting the Ref 6 in my system was shocking in that had I not known better, I could have swore I changed out power amps instead of a preamp. The Ref 6 gives no ground to the Ref 5SE. The Ref 6 is both more intelligent and better sounding from bottom to top in comparison to the Ref 5SE. If anyone tells you otherwise, I would cast a wary eye on both their system and room because the differences between the two aren't subtle.

**highEndguy** · June 25, 2016, 01:26 PM

Is hard to compare the 6 with the 10 because is a unit with two separate power supplies and output stages.

I had them both and the 10
Is a different monster.
Soundstage much bigger and less noise floor with very detail on instruments decay

But I'm also agreed that is very close to the REF10 sound

There is no REF10se for next year, is too early, I think.

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**mep** · June 25, 2016, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by highEndguy

Is hard to compare the 6 with the 10 because is a unit with two separate power supplies and output stages.

I had them both and the 10
Is a different monster.
Soundstage much bigger and less noise floor with very detail on instruments decay

But I'm also agreed that is very close to the REF10 sound

There is no REF10se for next year, is too early, I think.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You may well be one of the few people that have had a chance to hear both of them in your system. Both the Ref 6 and Ref 10 use 6 tubes in the line stage compared to 4 in the Ref 5SE. The Ref 10 has an outboard power supply and of course the Ref 6 does not. The Ref 6 does use two separate power supply transformers.

**highEndguy** · June 25, 2016, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by mep

You may well be one of the few people that have had a chance to hear both of them in your system. Both the Ref 6 and Ref 10 use 6 tubes in the line stage compared to 4 in the Ref 5SE. The Ref 10 has an outboard power supply and of course the Ref 6 does not. The Ref 6 does use two separate power supply transformers.

You are correct about the two PS from the 6 but the 10 have one for each channel

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**mep** · June 25, 2016, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by highEndguy

You are correct about the two PS from the 6 but the 10 have one for each channel

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You are absolutely correct. The Ref 10 has a monster power supply with two transformers per channel because it is truly dual mono as well as two 6550s and two 6H30 tubes in the power supply (one 6550 and one 6H30 for each channel). Even if the line stage circuit was identical between the Ref 10 and the Ref 6, the much bigger dual mono power supply in the Ref 10 should make a big difference in the sound. That is a very expensive power supply.

I stand corrected, there are four tubes per channel in the line stage of the Ref 10. This is a much different beast than the Ref 6 as well as it should be with an MSRP of $30,000 for the Ref 10 vice $14,000 for the Ref 6.

**Alpinist** · June 25, 2016, 11:15 PM

I had a long conversation with Dave Gordon of ARC and the REF11 is scheduled for the end of 2017. He said the new circuitry in the REF6 was an attempt to bring the performance closer to the REF10, in which they succeeded. However, according to Dave, there is no new technology in the REF6 that the REF10 doesn't already include or even better. REF6 has an upgraded power supply, REF10 has dual mono power supply. REF6 increased to 6 output tubes, REF10 utilizes 8 output tubes. But Dave feels there is not another preamp at the REF6's price point that can touch its performance. Based on my listening experience with it, I'm inclined to agree. It would be cool to have both the REF6 and REF10 in the same room. Maybe I should take a trip to ARC in Minnesota.

Ken

**joeinid** · July 22, 2016, 09:18 AM

Hi Ken,

Any thoughts if the Ref 10 will be updated to an SE version or if a new model will be released altogether?

**Alpinist** · July 22, 2016, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by joeinid

Hi Ken,

Any thoughts if the Ref 10 will be updated to an SE version or if a new model will be released altogether?

Joe,

I'll bring my ARC posts on WBF over here to AS.

Ken

**Alpinist** · July 22, 2016, 10:57 AM

I had the opportunity to do a direct comparison of the ARC REF6 and REF10 preamps in a system that included an ARC REF CD9 player, ARC REF 150SE amp, Wilson Alexia speakers and Nordost loom of cables.

The REF10 preamp had a smoother and more refined midrange and treble, lower reaching and more robust deep bass, and a soundstage with substantially more width and depth than the REF6. However, what I wasn't expecting was the REF6 preamp's very different sonic signature. The soundstage was much more forward than the REF10, the attacks were more abrupt and the mid-bass was punchier, creating a very vibrant and more aggressive sound. In some ways this provided more immediacy to the music but at the expense of some edginess compared to the REF10's silky smooth midrange and treble. The best single word I can use to describe the REF6's sound is "ballsy", while the best single word to describe the REF10's sound is "refined".

The presentation of the REF10 and REF6 were different enough that I would say it comes down to a matter of personal taste as to which one a listener would prefer. While I really liked and could be happy with the overall sound of the REF6, being a lover of jazz vocals, jazz piano, jazz guitar and small jazz combos, the REF10's sound really did it for me.

Best,
Ken

**Alpinist** · July 22, 2016, 10:59 AM

The REF10 is really fine but at less than half the price, the REF6 is amazing too. I could see those who primarily listen to Rock and Roll possibly preferring it due to its more aggressive sonic signature.

There are currently some misconceptions out there that the REF6 has some technological advancements over the REF10. After researching it, I found this to be untrue. The REF6 technology is purely trickle down from the REF10. However, the REF6 does have material advancements over the REF5SE. To break it down, the REF5SE uses, per channel, one 6H30 tube for its input stage and one 6H30 tube for its output stage. The REF6 uses, per channel, two 6H30 tubes for its input stage and one 6H30 tube for its output stage. The REF 10 uses, per channel, two 6H30 tubes for its input stage and two 6H30 tubes for its output stage. Yes, the REF10 is essentially two REF5SE's, but the REF10SE or REF11, whenever it comes out, will not be two REF6's. This is because the REF6 bridges the gap between the REF5SE and REF10. The REF6 has improved coupling capacitors and power supply over the REF5SE but the REF10 already has these improvements or better. From my discussions with ARC, the REF10SE or REF11 is a long way off because they are still improving other components in their line from trickle down technology based on the REF10's design.

Best,
Ken

**highEndguy** · July 22, 2016, 02:54 PM

True

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**madfloyd** · July 22, 2016, 04:29 PM

Joe, are you considering the Ref6 or 10?

**joeinid** · July 22, 2016, 04:53 PM

I'm actually considering the Ref 10 now. Based on all the recent comparisons and descriptions, I have a feeling the Ref 10 is more my speed.

Originally Posted by madfloyd

Joe, are you considering the Ref6 or 10?

**Alpinist** · July 22, 2016, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by joeinid

I'm actually considering the Ref 10 now. Based on all the recent comparisons and descriptions, I have a feeling the Ref 10 is more my speed.

Hi Joe,

Instead of the Ayre KX-R Twenty?

Ken

**MRJAZZ** · July 22, 2016, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by joeinid

I'm actually considering the Ref 10 now. Based on all the recent comparisons and descriptions, I have a feeling the Ref 10 is more my speed.

How about the new Mac 1000?
Cheers

**highEndguy** · July 22, 2016, 05:19 PM

Mc1100

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**highEndguy** · July 22, 2016, 05:20 PM

Nothing beats the REF10

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**mep** · July 22, 2016, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by madfloyd

Joe, are you considering the Ref6 or 10?

Joe bought the Ref 6. I don't know if he still has it.

**joeinid** · July 22, 2016, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by Alpinist

Hi Joe,

Instead of the Ayre KX-R Twenty?

Ken

Ken,

I think so. I'm not 100% sure where I want to end up.

Originally Posted by MRJAZZ

How about the new Mac 1000?
Cheers

Originally Posted by highEndguy

Mc1100

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I really like the new McIntosh C1100 but not sure it's my long term preference.

**joeinid** · July 22, 2016, 05:22 PM

I am considering replacing it with the Ref 10. I have not heard the Ref 10 yet, but agree about the character everyone mentions about the Ref 6. It's a bit aggressive for my taste. But I love its ballsyness, openness, and it's very quiet.

Originally Posted by highEndguy

Nothing beats the REF10

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Originally Posted by mep

Joe bought the Ref 6. I don't know if he still has it.

**Alpinist** · July 22, 2016, 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by joeinid

Ken,

I think so. I'm not 100% sure where I want to end up.

I really like the new McIntosh C1100 but not sure it's my long term preference.

Hi Joe,

I love the REF10 but I would think the synergy of the Ayre KX-R Twenty and the Ayre MX-R Twenty would be off the charts. I wouldn't discount the synergy of two components that are specifically designed for each other, especially of that caliber.

Best,
Ken

**joeinid** · July 22, 2016, 05:28 PM

Thank you Ken. I think you are right and will need to make a decision next month. My head says KX-R Twenty. I agree with your opinion of the Ref 6.

Originally Posted by Alpinist

Hi Joe,

I love the REF10 but I would think the synergy of the Ayre KX-R Twenty and the Ayre MX-R Twenty would be off the charts. I wouldn't discount the synergy of two components that are specifically designed for each other, especially of that caliber.

Best,
Ken

**mep** · July 22, 2016, 05:30 PM

I would never label the Ref 6 as aggressive or sibilant. Maybe by comparison the Ref 10 sounds smoother, and I hope I get the chance to hear it. The Ref 5SE was a damn fine sounding preamp and the Ref 6 has taken that benchmark to a new level that far exceeds the $1000 price difference in my opinion. The Ref 10 is over 2x more expensive than the Ref 6 plus it is pure dual mono with a big, beefy dual mono power supply in a separate chassis from the line stage. It should be something really, really special.

**joeinid** · July 22, 2016, 05:38 PM

I guess that's why it's really important to hear a piece in your own system to make a conclusive decision. I'd love to hear the Ref 10 as well. I am sure it is an amazing preamp.

**Alpinist** · July 22, 2016, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by joeinid

Thank you Ken. I think you are right and will need to make a decision next month. My head says KX-R Twenty. I agree with your opinion of the Ref 6.

You're welcome Joe. I've always been a big proponent of having a matching preamp and amps. And when the preamp is the quality of the Ayre KX-R Twenty, I would find it really difficult to look elsewhere. My Vandersteen M7-HPA mono amps are orphans, which means there is no matching preamp. According to Richard Vandersteen, ARC REF10 or REF6 are the best match due to their neutrality, transparency and detail with some tube smoothness and dimension thrown in.

Best,
Ken

**Alpinist** · July 22, 2016, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by mep

I would never label the Ref 6 as aggressive or sibilant. Maybe by comparison the Ref 10 sounds smoother, and I hope I get the chance to hear it. The Ref 5SE was a damn fine sounding preamp and the Ref 6 has taken that benchmark to a new level that far exceeds the $1000 price difference in my opinion. The Ref 10 is over 2x more expensive than the Ref 6 plus it is pure dual mono with a big, beefy dual mono power supply in a separate chassis from the line stage. It should be something really, really special.

Hi Mark,

Having recently heard both the REF6 and the REF10 in the same system, I agree with everything you said. The REF6 does not sound edgy or aggressive unto itself. Only modestly so in comparison to the REF10, which is just silky smooth and refined in the mids and treble. The REF6 is a wonderful sounding preamp and a grand slam at its price point!

Best,
Ken

**Elem79** · July 23, 2016, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by mep

I would never label the Ref 6 as aggressive or sibilant. Maybe by comparison the Ref 10 sounds smoother, and I hope I get the chance to hear it. The Ref 5SE was a damn fine sounding preamp and the Ref 6 has taken that benchmark to a new level that far exceeds the $1000 price difference in my opinion. The Ref 10 is over 2x more expensive than the Ref 6 plus it is pure dual mono with a big, beefy dual mono power supply in a separate chassis from the line stage. It should be something really, really special.

Agreed, aggressive and sibilant are two words that wound never enter into my mind when describing the REF 6.

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**Dpod4** · July 23, 2016, 01:41 PM

Interesting to read these reviews and others. I think the Ref 6 is the best and most neutral tube preamp I have used. I think it brings all the benefits of a tube preamp - allows full amplitude and texture of signal to flow through, and it brings to light and to full extent other parts of a system. If a source or cabling or amp or speakers or synergy between any of those bring edginess or sibilance then the arc ref 6 won't fix or smooth it over. This preamp, for me, combines what I loved about my air tight ref 2001 (organic, and spatial) with my previous Ref 40 preamp (quiet, precise, transparent) and brings out even more of what I love about the equipment I have settled on in my system - eg modified Marantz monos "live, dynamic, textured, non electronic" sound raised a few notches.

**Alpinist** · July 23, 2016, 10:18 PM

Originally Posted by Elem79

Agreed, aggressive and sibilant are two words that wound never enter into my mind when describing the REF 6.

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MEP used the word "sibilant", not I. IMHO, the REF10 has a smoother and more refined midrange and treble and a wider and deeper soundstage than the REF6. I would expect this at more than double the price. Other sonic characteristics I observed with the REF10 were less forward imaging and a smoother leading edge on attacks. I also said the REF6 is a wonderful sounding preamp and a grand slam at its price point.

Ken

**mep** · July 24, 2016, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by Alpinist

MEP used the word "sibilant", not I. IMHO, the REF10 has a smoother and more refined midrange and treble and a wider and deeper soundstage than the REF6. I would expect this at more than double the price. Other sonic characteristics I observed with the REF10 were less forward imaging and a smoother leading edge on attacks. I also said the REF6 is a wonderful sounding preamp and a grand slam at its price point.

Ken

I used the word "sibilant" because someone on this forum who bought a Ref 6 claims it sounds sibilant in their system. The bottom line is that the Ref 6 is a great sounding pre and anyone who wants to ascribe descriptors that are less than flattering that you have never heard anyone else use before to describe the sound of the Ref 6 have to have their comments put into perspective. And by that I mean I would chalk it up to the rest of the gear in their systems and their room. Audiophiles love to mix and "match" gear in their systems and when you use a "brand X" preamp with a "brand Y" power amp, it doesn't always result in you being named alchemist of the year.

alchemist.jpg

**Elem79** · July 24, 2016, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by Alpinist

MEP used the word "sibilant", not I. IMHO, the REF10 has a smoother and more refined midrange and treble and a wider and deeper soundstage than the REF6. I would expect this at more than double the price. Other sonic characteristics I observed with the REF10 were less forward imaging and a smoother leading edge on attacks. I also said the REF6 is a wonderful sounding preamp and a grand slam at its price point.

Ken

Sorry didn't mean to mix that up Ken. I generally wouldn't have said anything, but comments like aggressive and edgy are not flattering at all to the REF 6. I felt compelled to comment to ensure that it's clear that isn't the case for me and in every review I've read, those words were never used. I'm using the REF 6 with a GS150 and never in a million years could I describe it this way. To each his own though.

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**joeinid** · July 25, 2016, 07:02 PM

Mark/MEP,

Have you heard the ARC Ref 10 in your system? Any system? Do you feel the price of admission is worth it?

**mep** · July 25, 2016, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by joeinid

Mark/MEP,

Have you heard the ARC Ref 10 in your system? Any system? Do you feel the price of admission is worth it?

Joe-I have not heard the Ref 10 in my system, but I hope to do so at some point.

**joeinid** · July 25, 2016, 07:48 PM

Thank you Mark. I look forward to your thoughts should it ever happen.

Everyone should know that I am/was a committed Conrad Johnson fan. So my Ref 6 to my ear pre break in was a little bit more "lit from within" than I am used to hearing and I will say to my ear, a tiny bit more aggressive/forward (for lack of a better word) than I am used to hearing. ARC is certainly more neutral than my CJ ever sounded to me. Now that the Ref 6 has a lot more time on it (post break in), it absolutely is smoother and dare I say sweeter than when I first got it.

Ken's description of the Ref 10 vs Ref 6 has me intrigued and I want to hear a comparison at some point. Ken's description has me feeling that that is EXACTLY how I want my preamp to sound, like the Ref 10 (based on what he heard). I have some gear churning next month and I hope to get to hear the Ref 10 before I make any plans/decisions.

I've said it before, I can't handle the truth. I love a little smoother/sweeter sound to my music. So I love what I love. It's my system.

Another data point for everyone. I love Pass amps (sweet and warm and dimensional), don't like their preamps (a bit aggressive, bright to my ear). I love Ayre, both amps and preamps (never aggressive or bright, very sweet and great tone). CJ hands down overall favorite for both amps and preamp. I am getting a taste for ARC and realize how important system matching is for the brand.

Originally Posted by mep

Joe-I have not heard the Ref 10 in my system, but I hope to do so at some point.

**Dpod4** · July 25, 2016, 11:52 PM

Joe sounds to me like you might like CJ more than ARC.

**joeinid** · July 26, 2016, 12:16 AM

Originally Posted by Dpod4

Joe sounds to me like you might like CJ more than ARC.

**Jack** · July 26, 2016, 12:50 AM

I'm with Dpod4. If you are a CJ sound guy at heart then ARC, BAT and others of a similar vein that use the "super tube" will never be right for you no matter how much "good press" they get and how much you try to like them. If you want a tube preamp and you need it to have balanced outputs then look for that and forget about the brand name. They are out there and they may not cost over 5 figures or have a major advertising presence. If you are drawn to the sound of CJ, Job, Nord and others then the other side of the voicing will never sound "right" to you for anything but a short time and then you will be looking to sell again and move on. If the Ayre combo sounds right together then stick with it. From my readings the Ayre preamps are the "stars" of the lineup. What your ears hear is all that matters in the end.

**joeinid** · July 26, 2016, 01:02 AM

Well said Jack. Thank you for your thoughts. Now might be a good time to try the Backert Rhumba

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