Audio Research Announces SE Upgrades for Ref 75/150/250 Amps

**Dizzie** · March 10, 2015, 06:19 PM

Audio Research SE Amps | The Absolute Sound

**Mike** · March 10, 2015, 06:28 PM

So.....did the new Special Edition Reference amps leap frog the GS amps?

Man I'm confused. Reference was reference until GS came out, but now special edition is reference again?

ARC is the antithesis of McIntosh. Mc takes seemingly decades to come out with anything new. ARC changes things weekly. I LOVE ARC, but holy cow. If you just purchased a pair of REF250's thinking you had the best 250 watt ARC tube amp, you won't be too happy.

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**Mike** · March 10, 2015, 06:33 PM

Any idea of new MSRP?

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**mep** · March 10, 2015, 07:30 PM

Frankly, I'm not surprised. How long has the Ref 5SE been out? The Ref 75 has been on the market unchanged since 2012.

**cmalak** · March 10, 2015, 07:35 PM

Mike....here's news release with pricing info from TheAudioBeat.com: http://www.theaudiobeat.com/news/arc...ce_se_amps.htm

**Mike** · March 10, 2015, 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by mep

Frankly, I'm not surprised. How long has the Ref 5SE been out? The Ref 75 has been on the market unchanged since 2012.

And tell me ARC hasn't created confusion with the GS line. "Yes it's better than the REF line, oops, no it's not, well, not now at least."

Don't get me wrong - I still pine for a pair of REF250SE v.3.5SE/GS.SE.5.9's.

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**mep** · March 10, 2015, 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by cmalak

Mike....here's news release with pricing info from TheAudioBeat.com: Audio Research Reference 75 SE, Reference 150 SE and Reference 250 SE - The Audio Beat - www.TheAudioBeat.com

I'm pretty sure that ARC isn't changing the power transformer or output transformers since they aren't changing the output power ratings or the plate voltages to take advantage of the available power output from the KT-150 tubes.

**Mike** · March 10, 2015, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by cmalak

Mike....here's news release with pricing info from TheAudioBeat.com: http://www.theaudiobeat.com/news/arc...ce_se_amps.htm

Wow. Thanks. $34k for REF250SE's.

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**mep** · March 10, 2015, 07:42 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

And tell me ARC hasn't created confusion with the GS line. "Yes it's better than the REF line, oops, no it's not, well, not now at least."

Don't get me wrong - I still pine for a pair of REF250SE v.3.5SE/GS.SE.5.9's.

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No disagreement there with regards to the confusion caused by the GS line and where everything stands in the pecking order. In the old days, if it had "Ref" in front of the name, it represented their top of the line.

**Mike** · March 10, 2015, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by mep

No disagreement there with regards to the confusion caused by the GS line and where everything stands in the pecking order. In the old days, if it had "Ref" in front of the name, it represented their top of the line.

Agreed.

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**Dizzie** · March 10, 2015, 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by mep

Frankly, I'm not surprised. How long has the Ref 5SE been out? The Ref 75 has been on the market unchanged since 2012.

When were KT150 tubes first produced? Aren't they more recent than 2012? I just see this as ARC responding to the availability of better tubes and customer demand. Thankfully they offered an upgrade path.

**joeinid** · March 10, 2015, 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by cmalak

Mike....here's news release with pricing info from TheAudioBeat.com: Audio Research Reference 75 SE, Reference 150 SE and Reference 250 SE - The Audio Beat - www.TheAudioBeat.com

Thanks Cyril!

From this quote:

"Quoted specs for the amps have not changed. "Although we could change some of the operating voltages and get higher rated power output," says Dave Gordon of Audio Research, "we are going the conservative route, which we think will provide greater reliability and tube life. We expect owners to get 3000 hours out of these tubes, about 50% longer than KT120-equipped amps."

So they expect about 2000 hours on a set of KT120's ?

**rbbert** · March 10, 2015, 11:15 PM

ARC "needs" some things in this price range if they are to maintain their elite reputation. Their line was getting downright budget priced in today's audiophile world

**cmalak** · March 10, 2015, 11:27 PM

Originally Posted by joeinid

Thanks Cyril!

From this quote:

"Quoted specs for the amps have not changed. "Although we could change some of the operating voltages and get higher rated power output," says Dave Gordon of Audio Research, "we are going the conservative route, which we think will provide greater reliability and tube life. We expect owners to get 3000 hours out of these tubes, about 50% longer than KT120-equipped amps."

So they expect about 2000 hours on a set of KT120's ?

Joe...yes. 2,000 hours for 6550/KT-120s

**Bobvin** · March 11, 2015, 12:34 AM

That was always my fear with the new GS line, versus the reference line. That the GS line pricing would manifest as higher price tags when the reference line was renewed.

**knghifi** · March 11, 2015, 03:06 PM

Mono and Stereo High-End Audio Magazine: Audio Research ?????????????????????????Reference 250 SE NEW

Audio Research - There is only One Reference®

**KeithR** · March 11, 2015, 03:44 PM

I'm laughing at how this is "unexpected" from ARC.

**mep** · March 11, 2015, 05:05 PM

I'm a little disappointed that ARC isn't taking advantage of the full capabilities of the KT-150 tube and I wonder if the GS series doesn't either. Under the rationale of wanting to run the tube conservatively, they are leaving power on the table. Of course, that would have necessitated ARC providing a different power transformer and possibly output transformers as well. Since I have already installed KT-150 tubes in my Ref 75, I wonder what circuit changes they made and what parts are being changed out to improve the amp above what I'm getting by simply using the KT-150.

**microstrip** · March 11, 2015, 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by mep

I'm a little disappointed that ARC isn't taking advantage of the full capabilities of the KT-150 tube and I wonder if the GS series doesn't either. Under the rationale of wanting to run the tube conservatively, they are leaving power on the table. Of course, that would have necessitated ARC providing a different power transformer and possibly output transformers as well. Since I have already installed KT-150 tubes in my Ref 75, I wonder what circuit changes they made and what parts are being changed out to improve the amp above what I'm getting by simply using the KT-150.

Mark,

We have different views on this matter. I am happy they did not do it. ARC have tens of years of experience in amplifiers using about 420V power supplies (a lower than average value) and managed to create some very reliable amplifiers, something I praise a lot in the brand - I have many thousands of hours in my REF150 without any problem.
As far as I know the upgrades need changing the output transformers to adapt the amplifier to the KT150's, as well as few capacitors and wiring.

From the Audiobeat site:
"Although we could change some of the operating voltages and get higher rated power output," says Dave Gordon of Audio Research, "we are going the conservative route, which we think will provide greater reliability and tube life. We expect owners to get 3000 hours out of these tubes, about 50% longer than KT120-equipped amps."

**joeinid** · March 11, 2015, 05:51 PM

I'll take the longer life over more power

**mep** · March 11, 2015, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by microstrip

Mark,

We have different views on this matter. I am happy they did not do it. ARC have tens of years of experience in amplifiers using about 420V power supplies (a lower than average value) and managed to create some very reliable amplifiers, something I praise a lot in the brand - I have many thousands of hours in my REF150 without any problem.
As far as I know the upgrades need changing the output transformers to adapt the amplifier to the KT150's, as well as few capacitors and wiring.

From the Audiobeat site:
"Although we could change some of the operating voltages and get higher rated power output," says Dave Gordon of Audio Research, "we are going the conservative route, which we think will provide greater reliability and tube life. We expect owners to get 3000 hours out of these tubes, about 50% longer than KT120-equipped amps."

So you think they are changing out the output transformers?

**mep** · March 11, 2015, 07:33 PM

Francisco-One more thing; ARC has been building 75 watt tube amps for many, many years that used a single pair of 6550 tubes that were very reliable. Now they are using tubes that are capable of dissipating much more plate power safely (60 watts for KT-120, 70 watts for KT-150 tubes vice 42 watts for the 6550) and yet these amps are still rated for 75 watts. Given your logic of reliability, ARC should have run their 6550 tubes more conservatively.

**microstrip** · March 11, 2015, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by mep

So you think they are changing out the output transformers?

I think so. They were very clear about the output transformer of the GS150 - it was a new design to better match the KT150's, they were not just using the REF150 output transformer. But as far as I know no one confirmed or denied it.

**mep** · March 11, 2015, 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by microstrip

I think so. They were very clear about the output transformer of the GS150 - it was a new design to better match the KT150's, they were not just using the REF150 output transformer. But as far as I know no one confirmed or denied it.

I specifically asked you because I would think ARC would make it quite clear if they were indeed changing the output transformers.

**microstrip** · March 11, 2015, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by mep

Francisco-One more thing; ARC has been building 75 watt tube amps for many, many years that used a single pair of 6550 tubes that were very reliable. Now they are using tubes that are capable of dissipating much more plate power safely (60 watts for KT-120, 70 watts for KT-150 tubes vice 42 watts for the 6550) and yet these amps are still rated for 75 watts. Given your logic of reliability, ARC should have run their 6550 tubes more conservatively.

There are some other tube parameters, related to voltage, that are more critical than plate power for amplifier reliability. In order to increase power the HT voltage and driving voltage would need to be augmented, needing significant changes in the circuit design of the previous non SE amplifiers. We should remember that most of the time tubes break at transient moments - either when turning off or turning on the amplifier. In fact I remember that some Vmax grid specifications of the KT120 were not as high as the old 6550 and some amplifiers needed a few modifications to be used with the KT120.

**microstrip** · March 11, 2015, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by mep

I specifically asked you because I would think ARC would make it quite clear if they were indeed changing the output transformers.

I hope we will soon know about it - ARC only refer to new "active and passive parts" and a transformer is a passive part!

**Rscotth** · May 11, 2015, 03:15 PM

Anyone upgrade their Ref to the RefSE? Thoughts??

Thread: Audio Research Announces SE Upgrades for Ref 75/150/250 Amps