Vinyl Cleaning - The Dirty Truth Letter from Mat Weisfeld, VPI Industries [Archive]

Golucid

May 8, 2015, 11:39 AM

On 19 April 2015 I emailed Mat Weisfeld of VPI Industries directly and this morning, 8:13 a.m. Pacific, I at long last received a reply.

Note: I've communicated with Mat over the years, so I still have his email address. Plus, I have talked with him on the phone a few times. Mat is personable, friendly and genuinely a helpful nice guy. Oh, and he's really busy!

Anyway, I sent Mat an email detailing my thoughts very blunt which I will not share here because it would not be appropriate. But, Mat does a great job summing it up politically correct and fairly sanitized. Yeah, a gentle letter but gets that point accross.

My thought: VPI is [and also, ClearAudio] are respected leaders in the industry. I personally find it interesting that they have both not embraced ULTRASonic vinyl care as a solo solution. Though, ClearAudio is using a vibration method...and noteably NON-ULTRASonic but facilitating an alternate sonic technique less aggressive.

Historical info: you can circle back to my recent tests here on AS about my experience using the VPI wet method and the two leaning ultrasonics currently available: VPI | Audio Desk | Klaudio: which RCM is right for you? (http://audioshark.org/turntable-tone-arm-cartridge-reviews-95/vpi-audio-desk-klaudio-rcm-right-you-7284.html#.VUzoQFJHanM)

My findings are in line with Harry Weisfeld, VPI Industries. For me, arguing with Harry is every bit as fruitless arguing a point with Dan [Double-D]. I would embarrassingly loose.

LETTER FROM VPI INDUSTRIES. ALSO SEE PHOTOS FROM VPI

Hi David,

I'm not sure if I already responded to your email or if I have responded to this specific question so much that I'm loosing my mind :p

Harry ended up buying all the units out there and ended up not liking them because of the price points and the cleaning job they did. They did nice but not nice enough to justify needing to take out a loan to buy them! Here is a picture of Harry's lab for cleaning. He put together a DIY ultrasonic cleaning machine that cost him about $500 and cleans better. This DIY solution is the exact reason we will NOT be making our own ultrasonic cleaner because it just doesn't make sense and the ultra sonic really needs to be combined with a VPI cleaning machine to seal the deal.

Here is a link to Harry's thread on it all: Harry's Cleaning Process (http://vpiindustries.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2289)

Hope this gives more insight one how to get the best clean!

---
Sincerely,
Mat Weisfeld

Myles B. Astor

May 8, 2015, 12:04 PM

On 19 April 2015 I emailed Mat Weisfeld of VPI Industries directly and this morning, 8:13 a.m. Pacific, I at long last received a reply.

Note: I've communicated with Mat over the years, so I still have his email address. Plus, I have talked with him on the phone a few times. Mat is personable, friendly and genuinely a helpful nice guy. Oh, and he's really busy!

Anyway, I sent Mat an email detailing my thoughts very blunt which I will not share here because it would not be appropriate. But, Mat does a great job summing it up politically correct and fairly sanitized. Yeah, a gentle letter but gets that point accross.

My thought: VPI is [and also, ClearAudio] are respected leaders in the industry. I personally find it interesting that they have both not embraced ULTRASonic vinyl care as a solo solution. Though, ClearAudio is using a vibration method...and noteably NON-ULTRASonic but facilitating an alternate sonic technique less aggressive.

Historical info: you can circle back to my recent tests here on AA about my experience using the VPI wet method and the two leaning ultrasonics currently available: VPI | Audio Desk | Klaudio: which RCM is right for you? (http://www.audioaficionado.org/vinyl-accessories/31401-vpi-audio-desk-klaudio-rcm-right-you.html)

My findings are in line with Harry Weisfeld, VPI Industries. For me, arguing with Harry is every bit as fruitless arguing a point with Dan [JDandy]. I would embarrassingly loose.

LETTER FROM VPI INDUSTRIES. ALSO SEE PHOTOS FROM VPI

Hi David,

I'm not sure if I already responded to your email or if I have responded to this specific question so much that I'm loosing my mind :p

Harry ended up buying all the units out there and ended up not liking them because of the price points and the cleaning job they did. They did nice but not nice enough to justify needing to take out a loan to buy them! Here is a picture of Harry's lab for cleaning. He put together a DIY ultrasonic cleaning machine that cost him about $500 and cleans better. This DIY solution is the exact reason we will NOT be making our own ultrasonic cleaner because it just doesn't make sense and the ultra sonic really needs to be combined with a VPI cleaning machine to seal the deal.

Here is a link to Harry's thread on it all: Harry's Cleaning Process (http://vpiindustries.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2289)

Hope this gives more insight one how to get the best clean!

---
Sincerely,
Mat Weisfeld

Harry and I disagree about this subject but if you visit the VPI forum, there is more discussion on this topic.

Golucid

May 8, 2015, 12:21 PM

Harry and I disagree about this subject but if you visit the VPI forum, there is more discussion on this topic.

Yes, I have been reading the 13 pages. But, In my own experience, and I have the three machines: VPI + AudioDesk + Kaludio. I get best results including the VPI in the cleaning process. Perhaps it's just isolated to my many thousands of LPs, 12", 10" and 7"s. All are a combination of USA, UK, German, Japanese and a few other countries of origin.

There's a quote I like that Dan [Double-D] recently stated, "Through the years we have come to the conclusion that we must agree to simply disagree about this topic and we no longer discuss it. Since his sound system only has to make him happy, who am I to insist his attitude is misguided. This is a classic case of live and let live."

Again, it's impossible to say my method is ideal for someone else. At the very least, I invite everyone to ask questions and that costs zero dollars!

Myles B. Astor

May 8, 2015, 01:15 PM

Yes, I have been reading the 13 pages. But, In my own experience, and I have the three machines: VPI + AudioDesk + Kaludio. I get best results including the VPI in the cleaning process. Perhaps it's just isolated to my many thousands of LPs, 12", 10" and 7"s. All are a combination of USA, UK, German, Japanese and a few other countries of origin.

There's a quote I like that Dan [Double-D] recently stated, "Through the years we have come to the conclusion that we must agree to simply disagree about this topic and we no longer discuss it. Since his sound system only has to make him happy, who am I to insist his attitude is misguided. This is a classic case of live and let live."

Again, it's impossible to say my method is ideal for someone else. At the very least, I invite everyone to ask questions and that costs zero dollars!

I can understand why. I really don't hear what HW is complaining about in the upper octaves with the US based machines. Maybe it was a quirk of what LP was used. In fact I hear just the opposite with traditional vacuum based machines with much of the result directly traceable to what RCF is used. But even the best RCF fluids still close in the upper octaves.

I do love like the brushes as used in the AD cleaner.

But the choice would be if one could or had to choose just one method and didn't want to spend 25 minutes cleaning one LP??? :)

Steve

May 8, 2015, 01:34 PM

Sure, I will be mindful to change the water more often but I will continue to argue that the AD is more sympathetic of the US choices on the market because of what it employs in its design and operation.

o0OBillO0o

May 8, 2015, 02:02 PM

But the choice would be if one could or had to choose just one method and didn't want to spend 25 minutes cleaning one LP??? :)

Myles- I think this is a notable point. There can be copious amounts of time and money spent on cleaning and cleaning accessories.

The vignette I see: "Oooh! I want to listen to [this] album." pull it from the storage shelf, remove the disc from the sleeve and glean the "tonearm light" off the surface to only find that some dust and stray fuzzies have populated the surface. "Okay I'll use a brush to knock off that unwanted filth." after a few rotations and delicate sweeps, the needle is dropped only to find that a greater effort must be placed in restoring the surface to acceptable playback standards. Now, at this point you 'may' decide to forgo the the listening session and find a cleaner or newer disc. However, determined to get the music playing the time of enjoyment is further delayed by [longer than you like time frame] spent cleaning with a Record Cleaning Machine (RCM).

Now, a method and discipline would be to set aside a queue with a four record capacity. When a record meets your criteria of dirty, place it in the queue. When the queue is full, spend the time to clean the four records [while you listen to other records ;) ]. Of course the compromise is that this in not anticipatory record cleaning, but reactive. The reactive nature has a potential to be more efficient with your time. If anyone can crack that code of anticipatory record playing, you'd be a superstar.

Now to the real pie in the sky stuff: I suppose the easy way is to plan playlist, but that's no fun. Music generally runs and is sourced from moods / emotions and environment. What we need is robotic solution to clean ALL the records with a lower risk of damage that what we could do. Then we can let whatever that motivates us to play be ready to go. Oh and make it valuable and cost effective to time. For certain a robo RCM will cost lots of money.

Does anyone else have a suggested cleaning methodology and/or discipline? Please share because we can only learn from you. :D

Mike Lavigne

May 8, 2015, 02:30 PM

I've owned the VPI 16.5, 1 Loricraft PRC3, 1 Loricraft PRC4, 3 Audio Desk Systeme's, and a few updates of the Klaudio.

at one point I had the PRC4, and Audio Desk, and the KLaudio at the same time.

now I just have the Klaudio.

I know that I could obsess about the minutia of combining machines and all that stuff, but going forward I simply don't think about it that much and just 'touch up' already cleaned Lps as needed with the Klaudio and do a double clean to 'new to me' used Lps. my Klaudio sits in the hallway outside the room; I can clean one record while I listen to another. so almost zero time spent cleaning and not listening.

I don't see myself in an acquisition mode again where I have lots of older Lps that need special attention. I've moved on to just enjoying them and find it's the right approach for me.

I respect that is not the right thing for everyone.

I do think that as a final clean to an already clean or new record, particularly when you consider ease of use and mechanical longevity, it's hard to beat the Klaudio as a one machine solution.

YMMV, only my 2 cents, and all that stuff.

oh, and btw....if the Lp sits on my shelf I know it already is acceptable to my ears to play. OTOH i'm one of those that easily listens 'thru' some noise and do not get twisted about it. but we are not all the same on that issue.

Golucid

May 8, 2015, 04:18 PM

I do think that as a final clean to an already clean or new record, particularly when you consider ease of use and mechanical longevity, it's hard to beat the Klaudio as a one machine solution.

I am all for the one machine solution. I dread having to go through the long cleaning process through three machines. I am eager to audition the ClearAudio Double Matrix Sonic. This machine on the surface seems to address the best of both worlds using both a traditional wet and a sonic [not to be confused with Ultrasonic] method to clean your vinyl. If this machine is capable of performing and delivery exceptional results, I will cheerfully dump the VPI, AudioDesk and Klaudio for that all-in-one solution.

"...i'm one of those that easily listens 'thru' some noise and do not get twisted about it. but we are not all the same on that issue.

Oh I wish I could let go just a little. The snap crackle pop and static... just hearing it once drives me nuts.

Mike Lavigne

May 8, 2015, 05:13 PM

I am all for the one machine solution. I dread having to go through the long cleaning process through three machines. I am eager to audition the ClearAudio Double Matrix Sonic. This machine on the surface seems to address the best of both worlds using both a traditional wet and a sonic [not to be confused with Ultrasonic] method to clean your vinyl. If this machine is capable of performing and delivery exceptional results, I will cheerfully dump the VPI, AudioDesk and Klaudio for that all-in-one solution.

Oh I wish I could let go just a little. The snap crackle pop and static... just hearing it once drives me nuts.

I have approximately 8000 Lps. and maybe 30-50 that 'snap, crackle and pop'. certainly maybe 3-5-7% have some minor surface noise or a tic or two, but the vast majority i'd say are essentially noise free where no one's comfort zone would be alerted by noise.

those 30-50 that are really noisy have to be truly outstanding music and sound otherwise to have still earned their way onto a shelf spot.

when i'm playing vinyl it's so infrequent to notice noise it's almost a non-issue. I mostly touch up dusty records based on how it looks, not anything I hear.

so i'm simply not motivated to make record cleaning any more of an issue than I do now.

I did jettison approximately 4000 records a couple of years ago to cull the herd that I was not really listening to; that group required more attention as far as cleaning and noise to enter my regular use shelf areas. maybe one's reality on noise can be effected by the particular group of records you have.....or maybe even the performance difference between vinyl and digital in your system. if the vinyl does not smoke the digital then the toleration for noise from vinyl could be much more limited.

we all have our perspectives.

o0OBillO0o

May 8, 2015, 05:20 PM

I have approximately 8000 Lps. and maybe 30-50 that 'snap, crackle and pop'. certainly maybe 3-5-7% have some minor surface noise or a tic or two, but the vast majority i'd say are essentially noise free where no one's comfort zone would be alerted by noise.

those 30-50 that are really noisy have to be truly outstanding music and sound otherwise to have still earned their way onto a shelf spot.

when i'm playing vinyl it's so infrequent to notice noise it's almost a non-issue. I mostly touch up dusty records based on how it looks, not anything I hear.

so i'm simply not motivated to make record cleaning any more of an issue than I do now.

I did jettison approximately 4000 records a couple of years ago to cull the heard that I was not really listening to; that group required more attention as far as cleaning and noise to enter my regular use shelf areas. maybe one's reality on noise can be effected by the particular group of records you have.....or maybe even the performance difference between vinyl and digital in your system. if the vinyl does not smoke the digital then the toleration for noise from vinyl could be much more limited.

we all have our perspectives.

:goodpost:

Well, I am lame. I just started collecting records I have not spent money on 12,000 records, and hope to make each purchase a keeper 60% of the time- BUT my experience with noiseless records reflects yours.

a.wayne

May 8, 2015, 05:30 PM

I have approximately 8000 Lps. and maybe 30-50 that 'snap, crackle and pop'. certainly maybe 3-5-7% have some minor surface noise or a tic or two, but the vast majority i'd say are essentially noise free where no one's comfort zone would be alerted by noise.

those 30-50 that are really noisy have to be truly outstanding music and sound otherwise to have still earned their way onto a shelf spot.

when i'm playing vinyl it's so infrequent to notice noise it's almost a non-issue. I mostly touch up dusty records based on how it looks, not anything I hear.

so i'm simply not motivated to make record cleaning any more of an issue than I do now.

I did jettison approximately 4000 records a couple of years ago to cull the heard that I was not really listening to; that group required more attention as far as cleaning and noise to enter my regular use shelf areas. maybe one's reality on noise can be effected by the particular group of records you have.....or maybe even the performance difference between vinyl and digital in your system. if the vinyl does not smoke the digital then the toleration for noise from vinyl could be much more limited.

we all have our perspectives.

Wow Uncle Mike,

8000 lp's and only 50 crackle pop, that's pretty fantastic , I can't say I'm that fortunate from a total of 1500, quite a few from an era when I wasn't that careful about loaners ... :)

Congrats on the recent upgrades to the room and system........

Mike Lavigne

May 8, 2015, 05:34 PM

:goodpost:

Well, I am lame. I just started collecting records I have not spent money on 12,000 records, and hope to make each purchase a keeper 60% of the time- BUT my experience with noiseless records reflects yours.

thanks.

I've been collecting records actively since 1994; for the 1st 10-15 years at a crazy rate. the last 5-6 years at a much reduced rate until now it's only a trickle. hence my view on RCM's. I acquired about half those 12,000 from the purchase of three different collections (about $5k total spent on the collections), another likely 2000 from thrift stores for a dollar apiece over my first 5-10 years collecting. so the other 4000 were purchased new or individually used at retail values.

good luck with collection building. it's been great fun and very satisfying for me; I am emotionally connected to my records for sure.

Mike Lavigne

May 8, 2015, 05:46 PM

Wow Uncle Mike,

8000 lp's and only 50 crackle pop, that's pretty fantastic , I can't say I'm that fortunate from a total of 1500, quite a few from an era when I wasn't that careful about loaners ... :)

most with considerable 'snap, crackle, pop' are discarded. my point was that I have kept a few (30-50) with considerable noise since I loved something about the record (could even be the art work).

I also said that 3-7% of my records do have some noise or occasional tics, but the vast majority do not.

many groups of records have noise; but you might have found that group from someone else's discards (even mine although I throw away the worst noisy ones). and no doubt some collections might be from a Library lending system where God only knows how they might have been treated.

Congrats on the recent upgrades to the room and system........

thanks.....it is really fun to listen right now. although I notice i'm not getting much done...I just want to listen.

MusicDirector

May 8, 2015, 06:04 PM

I'd love a one/two punch set up like a VPI and an ultrasonic as final step, but all I have is a VPI 16.5 and AI fluids. The US machines are just too expensive for me to run to and 400 records hardly justifies getting one at the costs they are. I can say though, that about 25 to 30 of my 400+ records have a crackle or snap someplace, I can't tolerate pops (not as good a ratio as 30 to 50 out of 8000, but not too bad either). None very loud, but still easily heard. The rest are nearly dead silent, but a run through an ultrasonic would finalize absolute black background to a degree.
Granted, it can take more than one pass on my VPI to get them good and clean, I've gone 3 passes in one sitting on occasion. Yes, it does take time and I totally understand why one would not want to spend all that time cleaning records, nothing wrong with that. We all have different patience tolerances. Personally, I don't mind, I figure it's just the nature of the game and the prize is sweet enough to do it.

As for those occasional noises on a few records, I grew up with vinyl and it's just the nature of the beast.

I think what we need is record cleaning robots! I'd probably name mine Jeeves if I could not come up with something better.:D

~Eric

jdandy

May 8, 2015, 06:05 PM

:goodpost:

Well, I am lame. I just started collecting records I have not spent money on 12,000 records, and hope to make each purchase a keeper 60% of the time- BUT my experience with noiseless records reflects yours.

Bill.......I'll play devil's advocate for a moment. There is no such thing as a noiseless record. There are extremely well pressed and quiet records but even those are not noiseless. Even a silent groove without any modulation cut in virgin vinyl is not noiseless. There are always micro irregularities in groove walls (not dirt or debris) coupled with the unavoidable contact friction and the inherent noise generated by dragging a dry diamond stylus through a groove in contact with two dry vinyl walls. Perhaps a contactless stylus, aka the laser stylus may eliminate those physical anomalies but that's a whole different subject.

At any rate, I am an advocate of quiet, clean vinyl. The elimination of aggravating levels of noise in vinyl playback is essential for me to be able to concentrate and be transported uninterrupted to the place great music reproduction takes us. I hate it when my imaginary performance bubble is burst by a pop or tic or worse when I had been effortlessly floating in a musical fantasy. Having said that, to listen to vinyl and enjoy the performances one has to train the mind to filter out a certain level of elevated background noise. Even with the best of equipment and perfectly clean and well pressed vinyl there is still no such thing as a noiseless record.

OK, I'll step down now. :)

MusicDirector

May 8, 2015, 06:07 PM

There's a quote I like that Dan [Double-D] recently stated, "Through the years we have come to the conclusion that we must agree to simply disagree about this topic and we no longer discuss it. Since his sound system only has to make him happy, who am I to insist his attitude is misguided. This is a classic case of live and let live."

Again, it's impossible to say my method is ideal for someone else. At the very least, I invite everyone to ask questions and that costs zero dollars!

:thumbsup: Right on! Absolutely!

Golucid

May 8, 2015, 06:11 PM

[QUOTE=Double-D;126224"...There is no such thing as a noiseless record. There are extremely well pressed and quiet records but even those are not noiseless. Even a silent groove without any modulation cut in virgin vinyl is not noiseless. There are always micro irregularities in groove walls (not dirt or debris) coupled with the unavoidable contact friction and the inherent noise generated by dragging a dry diamond stylus through a groove in contact with two dry vinyl walls. Perhaps a contactless stylus, aka the laser stylus may illuminate those physical anomalies but that's a whole different subject."..."Even with the best of equipment and perfectly clean and well pressed vinyl there is still no such thing as a noiseless record."[/QUOTE]

True. You can hear the needle travel through the groove walls. What makes me want to rip that lp off the platter is the snaps crackle pops and static. That's my objective, to remove those sounds. So far, I am reaching that goal with my OCD efforts.:perfect:

Mike Lavigne

May 8, 2015, 06:19 PM

Bill.......I'll play devil's advocate for a moment. There is no such thing as a noiseless record. There are extremely well pressed and quiet records but even those are not noiseless. Even a silent groove without any modulation cut in virgin vinyl is not noiseless. There are always micro irregularities in groove walls (not dirt or debris) coupled with the unavoidable contact friction and the inherent noise generated by dragging a dry diamond stylus through a groove in contact with two dry vinyl walls. Perhaps a contactless stylus, aka the laser stylus may illuminate those physical anomalies but that's a whole different subject.

At any rate, I am an advocate of quiet, clean vinyl. The elimination of aggravating levels of noise in vinyl playback is essential for me to be able to concentrate and be transported uninterrupted to the place great music reproduction takes us. I hate it when my imaginary performance bubble is burst by a pop or tic or worse when I had been effortlessly floating in a musical fantasy. Having said that, to listen to vinyl and enjoy the performances one has to train the mind to filter out a certain level of elevated background noise. Even with the best of equipment and perfectly clean and well pressed vinyl there is still no such thing as a noiseless record.

OK, I'll step down now. :)

your perspective on noise and vinyl is all about your reference.

I recall my perspective on how noisy records inherently were, let's call it my reality, in 2002.

then I purchased the Rockport Sirius III Turntable.

I recall vividly my reaction when I played my first record on that turntable. my jaw dropped. and I realized that vinyl as a format is not noisy, but the imperfect execution of the format adds noise.

don't blame the format for the noise. or assume that an RCM is going to lower the noise floor of your turntable.

at some point in the future you may hear a record you know well have much less noise than you think it has and your reference for what is causing what will change and a light will go on.

cleaning records will only move the needle a little. the big step is elsewhere. and it is many things.

come over to my room and I can play you hours and hours of records with zero noise....other than the lead in groove.

i'm not saying that groove noise does not exist; but it's not a given.

MusicDirector

May 8, 2015, 06:27 PM

Bill.......I'll play devil's advocate for a moment. There is no such thing as a noiseless record. There are extremely well pressed and quiet records but even those are not noiseless. Even a silent groove without any modulation cut in virgin vinyl is not noiseless. There are always micro irregularities in groove walls (not dirt or debris) coupled with the unavoidable contact friction and the inherent noise generated by dragging a dry diamond stylus through a groove in contact with two dry vinyl walls. Perhaps a contactless stylus, aka the laser stylus may eliminate those physical anomalies but that's a whole different subject.

At any rate, I am an advocate of quiet, clean vinyl. The elimination of aggravating levels of noise in vinyl playback is essential for me to be able to concentrate and be transported uninterrupted to the place great music reproduction takes us. I hate it when my imaginary performance bubble is burst by a pop or tic or worse when I had been effortlessly floating in a musical fantasy. Having said that, to listen to vinyl and enjoy the performances one has to train the mind to filter out a certain level of elevated background noise. Even with the best of equipment and perfectly clean and well pressed vinyl there is still no such thing as a noiseless record.

OK, I'll step down now. :)

You make a very good point Dan!
I think that is partly how I "just live with" the slight occasional stubborn tick or whatever on a record, using my mind to filter. Growing up with vinyl helps make that easy. One learns to expect certain things. Also much of what we humans hear is through the filter of our perceptions anyway, not to mention our emotions, mood etc.

Yes, the laser turntable would be an interesting thing. I'm afraid though that manufactures are still afraid to invest in building them and if they did the price would be in the 6 digit area then they may sell one or two and call it a failure giving them the excuse of not finding a way to get units in more hands. That would be a shame.

MusicDirector

May 8, 2015, 06:36 PM

your perspective on noise and vinyl is all about your reference.

I recall my perspective on how noisy records inherently were, let's call it my reality, in 2002.

then I purchased the Rockport Sirius III Turntable.

I recall vividly my reaction when I played my first record on that turntable. my jaw dropped. and I realized that vinyl as a format is not noisy, but the imperfect execution of the format adds noise.

don't blame the format for the noise. or assume that an RCM is going to lower the noise floor of your turntable.

at some point in the future you may hear a record you know well have much less noise than you think it has and your reference for what is causing what will change and a light will go on.

cleaning records will only move the needle a little. the big step is elsewhere. and it is many things.

come over to my room and I can play you hours and hours of records with zero noise....other than the lead in groove.

i'm not saying that groove noise does not exist; but it's not a given.

Wait a minute, am I missing something? I too have a few records where you can't hear the track separations except for the lead in groove (in fact, I have a couple where you can't even hear that) or lead out groove at least with speakers. Headphones can tell a different story at times. No turntable I know will make an unclean record noiseless. A TT can not clean a record. Sure the stylus can dig stuff out of the grooves, but that's usually not a good thing in the end. An RCM on the other hand (in other words, cleaning the record) will "help" to lower the noise floor at least from the perspective of the record itself and it's interaction with the turntable, that's not an assumption. Also, TT set up is key as well I would think and if the TT is not set up properly, the cleanest record in the world will have more noise than you can handle.
If I understand you correctly, your saying an RCM has no effect on the noise floor native to any turntable. Well, obviously that's true as they are too different things. I'm saying that an RCM does have an effect on the noise you hear from a record because one has cleaned the record.
Not arguing, just trying to follow.

a.wayne

May 8, 2015, 06:37 PM

I can concur on what Uncle mike is saying, some if not most LP groove noise is from mistracking, the better the setup, The less Likely the issue ...

A once noisy record may become silent ......

Golucid

May 8, 2015, 06:55 PM

Let's lighten the mood. This is what I use to drain my VPI - yeah, seriously! Though, Not quit the same taste. If you are going to drain it, do it in style! lol

Myles B. Astor

May 8, 2015, 07:01 PM

I can concur on what Uncle mike is saying, some if not most LP groove noise is from mistracking, the better the setup, The less Likely the issue ...

A once noisy record may become silent ......

Actually how much noise is perceived also depends on besides the record condition, the cartridge, cartridge design, arm design and electronics. Cartridges with very exotic contact area-say for instance the Atlas in my experience-seem to make records quieter. Whether that's due to the stylus reaching unplayed areas is open to debate. Another factor that affects the cartridge's "noise floor" is how vibrations are transmitted up the cantilever to the fulcrum. Those who have compared a strain gauge (and it's quietness) vs. a MC cartridge are in part hearing this noise transmission difference. Peter Ledermann can obviously describe this effect far better. Then, tube electronics are in general much kinder to surface noise than is SS gear. Finally, linear tracking arms are able to play LPs that have no right to sound that good looking at the surface condition.

Mike Lavigne

May 8, 2015, 07:05 PM

Let's lighten the mood. This is what I use to drain my VPI - yeah, seriously! Though, Not quit the same taste. If you are going to drain it, do it in style! lol

i'm normally a single malt guy, but lately it's been this as my 'hair-of-dog' choice....

http://audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11047&stc=1

jdandy

May 8, 2015, 08:01 PM

your perspective on noise and vinyl is all about your reference.

I recall my perspective on how noisy records inherently were, let's call it my reality, in 2002.

then I purchased the Rockport Sirius III Turntable.

I recall vividly my reaction when I played my first record on that turntable. my jaw dropped. and I realized that vinyl as a format is not noisy, but the imperfect execution of the format adds noise.

don't blame the format for the noise. or assume that an RCM is going to lower the noise floor of your turntable.

at some point in the future you may hear a record you know well have much less noise than you think it has and your reference for what is causing what will change and a light will go on.

cleaning records will only move the needle a little. the big step is elsewhere. and it is many things.

come over to my room and I can play you hours and hours of records with zero noise....other than the lead in groove.

i'm not saying that groove noise does not exist; but it's not a given.

Mike.......You made some good points but let me make clear my point. I never said vinyl is a noisy format, nor did I touch on how the totality of turntable parts and pieces impact the sound. I said there is no such thing as a noiseless record. I am well aware of the multiple intricacies associated with vinyl playback that adds to or subtracts from the noise floor. My point is the noise floor of even the best rigs is not silence once the stylus is dropped. Quiet playback is not the same thing as silence. Noiseless implies silence.

I have been enjoying vinyl for well over 45 years and have had exposure to many wonderful and not so wonderful turntables, tonearms, phono cartridges, and phono stage preamps through these many years. I agree that there are a plethora of variables in play every time a stylus enters the groove, not to mention the accuracy of the cartridge and tonearm setup and which protractor poison you choose to use. None are perfect. The cumulative results of those many variables are what separates premium level vinyl playback from something less. I am certainly no expert and don't claim to be but I do have a fair amount of experience and knowledge on the subject at hand. One thing is certain, it's a deep rabbit hole for sure.

Congratulations on owning an 8000 record collection. That is amazing and serious. I don't have enough room to correctly store that much vinyl. How do you make a decision on what gets played on any given night?

Golucid

May 8, 2015, 08:15 PM

One thing is certain, it's a deep rabbit hole for sure.
+1 or rather, 10 to the second power = 100

a.wayne

May 8, 2015, 08:22 PM

I have heard CD's dont have these issues , might be something to look into ....

:)

Golucid

May 8, 2015, 08:25 PM

I have heard CD's dont have these issues , might be something to look into ....

:)

Well, that's a point worthy of consideration LOL

jdandy

May 8, 2015, 08:28 PM

I have heard CD's dont have these issues , might be something to look into ....

:)

Uh oh! :roflmao:

Steve

May 8, 2015, 09:16 PM

Actually how much noise is perceived also depends on besides the record condition, the cartridge, cartridge design, arm design and electronics. Cartridges with very exotic contact area-say for instance the Atlas in my experience-seem to make records quieter. Whether that's due to the stylus reaching unplayed areas is open to debate. Another factor that affects the cartridge's "noise floor" is how vibrations are transmitted up the cantilever to the fulcrum. Those who have compared a strain gauge (and it's quietness) vs. a MC cartridge are in part hearing this noise transmission difference. Peter Ledermann can obviously describe this effect far better. Then, tube electronics are in general much kinder to surface noise than is SS gear. Finally, linear tracking arms are able to play LPs that have no right to sound that good looking at the surface condition.

The Clearaudio GFS is very sensitive in these regards. Even with current reissues, there are some labels that are dead quiet without any perceivable groove noise and others that drone with it. Much inconsistency across labels and lathe cutting tips and angles has a lot to do with it too. Rake angle makes a difference... I've elected to set according to the best medium which are Chad's Analogue Production pressings. That is my benchmark. Not many will argue that they are currently the best pressings in the world.

XV-1

May 9, 2015, 02:26 AM

Myles B. Astor

May 9, 2015, 07:56 AM

Harry from VPI says the US cleaner to clean and his vacuum to dry, as the non vacuum method does not work for him.

How does Harry dry the LP considering it is wet on both sides when it comes out of the US unit?? His VPI vacuum does not vacuum both sides.

I think like the inexpensive US unit that is on Agon and shows. Air dry like dishes on a rack.

a.wayne

May 9, 2015, 08:56 AM

I've elected to set according to the best medium which are Chad's Analogue Production pressings. That is my benchmark. Not many will argue that they are currently the best pressings in the world.

Wait, wait , wait for it ..........ahhhhhhbout now !!!!

:)

At 50.00 a pop....... Ohhhh yeah

Myles B. Astor

May 9, 2015, 09:22 AM

Wait, wait , wait for it ..........ahhhhhhbout now !!!!

:)

At 50.00 a pop....... Ohhhh yeah

50 dollars is for a double 45 rpm album.

Have you looked at the album jackets? No expense is spared there either. The cardboard must be double the thickness of an ordinary record and everything is in 4/C. Have you every investigated what it costs to print 4/C on a good eg museum quality not schlock press? (if you ever noticed in the old days, the first thing a label did to cut costs was go from a color back to a B/W back jacket!) The best quality inner sleeves? Then factor in up front material costs, royalty fees, lawyer fees, labor costs, interest and credit lines and limited 2000 runs --oh and letting him actually make some money-- and the albums are really a bargain.

Oh and stop living in the past. Go and pull up a cpi calculator and plug in 1980 and put in $12 for an LP. That $12 album would cost in current money $34.18. So it is truly a bargain especially if you take into account the reject rate, especially when compared to the schlock of the late '70s, is virtually nil.

That said, Pallas and MOFI also do an excellent job of pressing records also. RTI is step below but not terrible. Just inconsistent.

Mikey also mentioned to me that a new record pressing plant in opening in NJ and that won't be just for club vinyl.

MusicDirector

May 9, 2015, 09:48 AM

Harry from VPI says the US cleaner to clean and his vacuum to dry, as the non vacuum method does not work for him.

How does Harry dry the LP considering it is wet on both sides when it comes out of the US unit?? His VPI vacuum does not vacuum both sides.

Good point. Coming from my view as a vacuum believer myself: I can see using the US cleaner that dries (I forget if it's the AD or the other one), but then there would be no need for vacuuming. If he is drying the records via dish rack and household air, again...no use for vacuum and it would be the worst thing for the records too. NEVER vacuum a dry record! Also if dish rack air drying all the dirt floating around in the air settle back onto the records and a lot of the dirt or contaminates are sticky. So, if you vacuum that record you are also not only adding static charge, but drying the dirt it picked up from the air in the house to the record and putting more scratches on it at least.
If you live in a cleanroom, no worries, but show of hands: How many folks here live in a cleanroom? That's what I thought.

a.wayne

May 9, 2015, 09:49 AM

Myles, you need to cut back on the caffeine Buddy , when i get into NY we can wrestle over it , yeah , yeah , I know , the last time I yanked out all your hair, so obviously i cant use that move anymore ...

Jeeeez, @50.00 bucks i would expect excellence, nothing about over pricing, relax Maestro... :rofl:

Myles B. Astor

May 9, 2015, 09:53 AM

Myles, you need to cut back on the caffeine Buddy , when i get into NY we can wrestle over it , yeah , yeah , I know , the last time I yanked out all your hair, so i cant use that move anymore ...

Jeeeez, @50.00 bucks i would expect excellence, relax ... :rofl:

You've been taking pot shots at records throughout this thread so why are you playing innocent?

All I did is lay out the facts. Are you disputing them?

a.wayne

May 9, 2015, 10:03 AM

Me, taking potshots at analog !

:rolleyes:

Please , Point out the pot shots , conviction without evidence is , well ......... especially since I have bought those 50.00 LP's...

You've been taking pot shots at records throughout this thread so why are you playing innocent?

All I did is lay out the facts. Are you disputing them?

Steve

May 9, 2015, 10:15 AM

Wayne... Show me a label at any price with a better quality product?

I have no problem buying MoFI with confidence too. They do a great job with their label "categories" also.

a.wayne

May 9, 2015, 10:55 AM

Steve,

Did i say there was a problem with the price, I pointed out the quality doesn't come cheap, i bought at 50.00 a pop, at 50.00 a pop, one expects to see quality.

lots of tension guys ... :)

Myles , found anything yet ....?

mep

May 9, 2015, 11:06 AM

Wayne... Show me a label at any price with a better quality product?

I have no problem buying MoFI with confidence too. They do a great job with their label "categories" also.

I think that QRP has taken the quality of record pressings to a place it has never been before. I smile every time I buy a QRP pressing and I smile every time I play a QRP pressing.

Golucid

May 9, 2015, 11:53 AM

I think that QRP has taken the quality of record pressings to a place it has never been before. I smile every time I buy a QRP pressing and I smile every time I play a QRP pressing.

I've never hear of QRP. Is there a catelog? More info please!

Myles B. Astor

May 9, 2015, 12:03 PM

I've never hear of QRP. Is there a catelog? More info please!

QRP = quality record pressings

That is Chad Kassem's/Acoustic Sounds' pressing facility. They not only press their own but for other labels now. Check out analog planet.com for more info.

a.wayne

May 9, 2015, 12:04 PM

If you have the Cat Stevens, "TEA FOR THE TILLERMAN " album , it's QRP .....

I've never hear of QRP. Is there a catelog? More info please!

Edit: If you have recently bought a new pressing.....

Reason for Edit: caught out by Schultz

:rolleyes:

socfan12

May 9, 2015, 12:04 PM

Qrp are the best!

a.wayne

May 9, 2015, 12:07 PM

QRP = quality record pressings

That is Chad Kassem's/Acoustic Sounds' pressing facility. They not only press their own but for other labels now. Check out analog planet.com for more info.

QRP prices are reasonable for what you are getting and they will allow small pressing numbers , works well for current projects.

How about that ... :)

Stringreen

May 9, 2015, 12:16 PM

..lots of talk.....I have had a Nitty Gritty for many years, but hardly use it. I never touch the record surface, only the edges, I sweep with a Hunt brush before playing, and use a hunk of Magic Eraser glued to a quarter for my stylus, and my records remain quiet, and enjoyable. I never find a glop of schmutz clinging to the stylus. For me, it takes too much time and energy to clean records with not enough satisfaction in return.

mep

May 9, 2015, 12:19 PM

If you have the Cat Stevens, "TEA FOR THE TILLERMAN " album , it's QRP .....

How about the other 10 pressings I own that were issues before QRP became a reality? :D

MusicDirector

May 9, 2015, 01:20 PM

Wow, bummer...total derailment here.

Myles B. Astor

May 9, 2015, 06:32 PM

Wow, bummer...total derailment here.

I think moderation should be left to the moderators.

Golucid

May 9, 2015, 06:37 PM

Wow, bummer...total derailment here.

I believe we are still on point. The issue is finding that vinyl listening nirvana. Cleaning: is it the machine, the vinyl, both? There is no is "I have the answer - nobody does" but rather, seeking to understand...everyone has something to contribute that may be a great idea in nailing down what works most for the ultimate vinyl experience - cleaning methods.

a.wayne

May 9, 2015, 07:15 PM

+10

astrotoy

May 9, 2015, 08:03 PM

I bought my first VPI cleaning machine back in the mid '80's (about 30 years ago). IIRC it was a VPI 16 when the suction tube was mounted diagonally on the top. I cleaned all 15,000 of my records with various VPI models, and cleaned almost all of them again (including the many used records I bought from London in the past 18 years) when I switched to Disc Doctor liquids and brushed, still using a VPI to do the suction for the cleaning solution and then the distilled water rinse. When I started my ripping project 5 years ago, I was just ripping records that I had cleaned with the VPI/DD method. At about 2000 records into the ripping, I discovered the Audio Deske System Ultrasonic cleaner and recleaned the last 7500 records (which had all beeen previously cleaned by VPI/DD).

Except for a handfull of records that have only been cleaned by the Audio Deske that I have acquired in the past 3 years - almost all new pressings, all my records have been cleaned at least two, some three time (VPI, VPIDD and ADS). There are are still about 5000 records that have only been cleaned by VPI, VPIDD or just VPIDD, which I do not plan on ripping.

So my experience with record cleaners has been long and very positive, but with almost all records have been cleaned at least twice with two different systems, I don't have good comparisons with the effects of different methods. I haven't tried this but it may be like cleaning the carpet with two different vacuum cleaners. The second one will always pick up something that the first one leaves behind, no matter which one you start with.

BTW, the vast majority of my 15,000 LP's have been purchased used (that however means I still have a few thousand I have purchased new.)

Larry

MusicDirector

May 10, 2015, 10:59 AM

I think moderation should be left to the moderators.

Myles, I wasn't trying to take that roll by any means. Please don't read things into my post, alright? I was only mentioning it because I was really interested in the original subject and all of the sudden it was cost of records and it threw me.

a.wayne

May 10, 2015, 12:04 PM

Steve

May 10, 2015, 12:37 PM

Larry...After cleaning some 7500+ records with the Audio Desk, how is the machine holding up?

MusicDirector

May 10, 2015, 01:46 PM

Larry...After cleaning some 7500+ records with the Audio Desk, how is the machine holding up?

Good question. If it's holding up well after all that assault, it's safe to say that it is a very well built machine, (little doubt it isn't). With that amount of records there is no doubt about the need for it. It scares me to think about doing that many on my VPI, not that it may not hold up, but I wouldn't and I don't mind taking time to clean records at all. Makes me thankful that I only have a handful of records compared to almost everyone here.

a.wayne

May 10, 2015, 02:29 PM

15000 is past a collection , its a library ....

wow ..!!!!

Golucid

May 10, 2015, 04:49 PM

I relocated into the office closet all three vinyl cleaning machines. Next week, I have an electrician coming in to install two electrical outlets into the closet. Later in the month, I will have an L shape desk created to accommodate the machines in a side by side order. This will give me ample room to add a Monks, ClearAudio Double Matrix Sonic and to build and add the V8 too. I'm in heaven - I get to experiment with all the top vinyl cleaning machines.

MusicDirector

May 10, 2015, 05:05 PM

Myles B. Astor

May 10, 2015, 08:29 PM

Someone asked about this article and finally found the issue in a box of audio magazines. From Sounds Like... magazine, Issue #8, 1990.

Who would have thought 25 years later LPs are making a comeback, the number of RCFs on the market has more than doubled and high quality inner sleeves in abundance. Just goes to show how lousy we are predicting the future.

http://audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11105&d=1431304138

http://audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11106&d=1431304167

http://audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11107&d=1431304171

http://audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11108&d=1431304175

http://audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11109&d=1431304178

http://audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11109&d=1431304178

http://audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11110&d=1431304181

http://audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11111&d=1431304184/

http://audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11112&d=1431304187

http://audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11114&d=1431304192

11105111061110711108111091111011111111121111311114

MusicDirector

May 10, 2015, 09:45 PM

Astonishing when you stop and think about it, then think back to when vinyl was all there was and we had next to nothing in RCFs, RCMs, quality inner sleeves and all that.
Who knew.

o0OBillO0o

May 13, 2015, 12:36 PM

David-

You win! You have all the record cleaning machines together in one room. You are able to create a stand alone and various combination cleaning of each of your records. I know this is an invaluable experience because you can test, experiment and make your determinations of what is prefered and not prefered. No moral decisions here, just trade offs.

What you could help us all with is document your standards for clean and dirty. It does not have to be complicated, like "I removed .03 grams of particulate matter from Record X.." - though I am sure some of our astute hobbyists that read this may want to see some true objectivity. (And if you can help David and us on this, please come forward)

For your standard of clean, please take a moment in your own words, document with logical examples of what a clean record is to you. This way the reader has an understanding of what a standard of clean is.

Please do the same for the standard of dirty. It can be that record store find, that Discogs Disc that arrived from Greece, or the effect of pet dander, dust and oily human hands. Something to that effect that makes the record unsatisfactory to play on your turntable.

What is interesting is this cleaning machine, which includes both "Sonic" and "Vacuum" technologies. 1 What do they know that VPI, KLAudio, and Autodesk doesn't? 2 What have they learned? 3 Is this your next machine?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Dd9k5x2jaU

here is a Youtube search.. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=clear+audio+matrix

Beyond this, 4 what other resource could you use to determine that one record machine is better than the other? 5Who could possible tell you what is what when you have all the RCMs right there in front of you?

First my answers to questions 4 & 5:

4: Myles B. Astor or Michael Fremer are verbose in all thing Vinyl. They are professional reviewers that stand as critics that many trust their judgment. (and I forgot someone, please add them because I don't know everyone or everything.)

5: More people who are either invited your house ;) or has the an agreeably high performing audio system to confirm what you are telling us. I am sure the people in Q4 have seen all this in one shape or another, but have not done the extensive test that you have- for one reason or another.

I conclude that you are doing great things for the art of music, vinyl and music enjoyment. You are not a magazine or a website with financial motives. Your quest is the truth. It may not be the absolute truth, but you have climbed the mountain, looked around and you can see things that many cannot. This reason to be, makes you THE expert, unless someone should challenge your findings. (Then life will get a whole lot more exciting for us in the audience). Keep up your "Audio Philanthropy" and be that maven for all of us to learn from.

astrotoy

May 13, 2015, 01:23 PM

Good question. If it's holding up well after all that assault, it's safe to say that it is a very well built machine, (little doubt it isn't). With that amount of records there is no doubt about the need for it. It scares me to think about doing that many on my VPI, not that it may not hold up, but I wouldn't and I don't mind taking time to clean records at all. Makes me thankful that I only have a handful of records compared to almost everyone here.

My Audio Deske lasted about 6500 records before it bit the dust - motor burned out. I did many of the records with 5 beeps (maximum cleaning time) though they probably only need one beep (normal cleaning). That probably led to an earlier demise. Clearly for most users that wouldn't be an issue. Anyway they replaced it with a new machine for $1500, a little more than 1/3rd the retail price. My dealer, Tim Marutani, handled the transaction. I had considered getting a KLA to replace it, but at the price and my general satisfaction with the AD, I decided to stay with AD. I'm around 1000 records into the new machine with no problems. I am only about 750 records away from finishing my ripping project, so that should be done in a few months! Hurrah!

PS. I had a total of 4 VPI machines over the 25+ years, cleaning my 15,000 records, most of them two different times. Three machines by necessity and one by upgrade.

Larry

o0OBillO0o

May 13, 2015, 01:35 PM

Larry- Interesting comments and thank you for sharing. Also please feel free to create a thread about your Vinyl Ripping project- It's very interesting to me and I know others would like to learn from what you have learned. (I want to do this with a TASCAM DA-3000 and my current tube phono stage)

Regarding your postscript, have you had the chance to have all 4 VPI machines together, in one room, at the same time? (that just sounds naughty ;) ) It's unclear if you repurchased or had various combination of the four at two different times or ??? thanks.

MusicDirector

May 13, 2015, 02:17 PM

My Audio Deske lasted about 6500 records before it bit the dust - motor burned out. I did many of the records with 5 beeps (maximum cleaning time) though they probably only need one beep (normal cleaning). That probably led to an earlier demise. Clearly for most users that wouldn't be an issue. Anyway they replaced it with a new machine for $1500, a little more than 1/3rd the retail price. My dealer, Tim Marutani, handled the transaction. I had considered getting a KLA to replace it, but at the price and my general satisfaction with the AD, I decided to stay with AD. I'm around 1000 records into the new machine with no problems. I am only about 750 records away from finishing my ripping project, so that should be done in a few months! Hurrah!

PS. I had a total of 4 VPI machines over the 25+ years, cleaning my 15,000 records, most of them two different times. Three machines by necessity and one by upgrade.

Larry

Thanks Larry.
Wow, gave out after 6500 LPs huh? Although, considering the fact that you did max cleaning on all those records it might have gone to 7500 or more had you cleaned accordingly as you mentioned. Still, that's only about $1.63 per record and you can't put a price on the automation and value of time spent not to mention any wear and tear on your hands or something cleaning that many records by other means.
A replacement for $1500...how do they do that? If these machines were that to begin with sales would be through the roof. Although even at $4k, if I had a collection 1/4 the size of yours, I'd save up for however long it took and whatever to get one rather than try that stunt with my VPI. (Although I would not be putting really dirty records through without a first pass through the VPI or whatever machine already on hand). It would be worth every cent in my opinion. Sure, the VPI is a fraction of the cost, is a fine machine for it's purpose and most everything on it is easily replaced even by the end user, but my hands and the rest of my body and time are not replaceable.
Hmm, seeing that your already 1000 records in on the new one and not a hint of issues, perhaps some improvements were made inside someplace?

~Eric

socfan12

May 13, 2015, 07:41 PM

Myles, thank you for posting the article. Will give it a read asap.

Golucid

May 13, 2015, 07:47 PM

Yes, Myles. Thank you! I am handy with Photoshop, so I am going to process the images and make my own pdf of this.

astrotoy

May 13, 2015, 08:00 PM

Thanks, Myles. I'm sure I read the article way back when. My 4 VPIs were consecutive. I started with the VPI 16, IIRC. then went to a 16.5, then a 17F, and then back to a 16.5. I gave the last 16.5, still in decent condition, to a friend, after I got the ADS. My dealer, Tim, negotiated the replacement ADS - rather than sending my old one back to Germany to be repaired. I don't know how the price was determined, but it seems that it probably is well below wholesale (negotiated to keep both he and me reasonably happy and getting me a replacement to not delay my ripping project.)

I'll do a thread on my ripping project at some point. I have talked about it in different threads and different sites, but nothing comprehensive.

Larry

Steve

May 13, 2015, 09:01 PM

David...Perhaps a few pics of grooves under a microscope could be in comparative effectiveness order?

o0OBillO0o

May 13, 2015, 09:04 PM

David...Perhaps a few pics of grooves under a microscope could be in comparative effectiveness order?

That's an interesting idea!

Do you have a recommended Microscope?
What should we be looking for other than a change in images?

Steve

May 13, 2015, 09:24 PM

That's an interesting idea!

Do you have a recommended Microscope?
What should we be looking for other than a change in images?

Maybe a Dino-lite will be good enough AM-7013MZT4 is 400x high resolution @ 5MB with polariser function should be good enough to show some level of granularity in the groove walls. Not sure if you could pick up groove damage at that resolution but you will see particulates easily enough.

I would use a scope with a polariser light that can be dialled in.

I haven't had much success using this model for SRA because it is short throw (long distance is better to track a stylus) so I will be buying the cheaper model recommended for that purpose.

If Myles is reading...do you recall what was the Dino-Lite model typically used for SRA measurement?

Myles B. Astor

May 13, 2015, 09:27 PM

Yes, Myles. Thank you! I am handy with Photoshop, so I am going to process the images and make my own pdf of this.

Thanks I wanted to do that! :) Perhaps I can take pics with my camera this weekend and give you something better to work with.

o0OBillO0o

May 13, 2015, 09:31 PM

Golucid

May 13, 2015, 09:35 PM

Thanks I wanted to do that! :) Perhaps I can take pics with my camera this weekend and give you something better to work with.

PM me and I can email you my edits now in pdf. If they are good enough, can save you the hassle working on it again.

Steve

May 13, 2015, 09:41 PM

For the group, Stylus Rake Angle (SRA)

How to Use a USB Digital Microscope to set 92 Degree Stylus Rake Angle (SRA) | Analog Planet (http://www.analogplanet.com/content/how-use-usb-digital-microscope-set-92-degree-stylus-rake-angle-sra)

Interesting, he removed the cap on that model as I did too but it is a lower magnification scope which is better probably suited for the SRA application.

MikeCh

May 13, 2015, 09:54 PM

Thanks I wanted to do that! :) Perhaps I can take pics with my camera this weekend and give you something better to work with.

Download CutePDF (free) and just "print" the .jpg's to it. Works a charm.

MusicDirector

May 13, 2015, 09:58 PM