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Harris4crna
March 6, 2015, 10:29 PM
10038

Recently broke stylus off the Delos. Took the opportunity to upgrade to the Kleos. 10 hours in and i am not convinced it is better than Delos. More analytical and detailed in the mids and highs, but does not seem to have the low end punch as the Delos had. Listen to variety of music including heavy metal, rock, pop, jazz and classical. So plenty different types of music to compare the Kleos to. True, lower voltage versus the Delos, thus increase the gain to 66 and stayed with 100 ohms. Thoughts? Do i need to wait for break in?

Equipment:
Vpi classic 1, simaudio 740p preamp, 860a amp, 810lp phonostage, transparent reference cable and franco serblin Ktemas speakers.

Thanks10039

puroagave
March 6, 2015, 10:37 PM
give the kleos a few more hours and they'll be indistinguishable from one another:P I owned both and imo they're cut from the same sonic cloth. makes me wonder if the Atlas is worth the premium (of course its is:rolleyes:).

Syntax, who is an experienced 'phile on audiogon and owns most if not all of the current Lyras, rates the Delos highly.

Harris4crna
March 6, 2015, 10:39 PM
Yes i read many of Syntax comments on Audiogon. Im getting good input from all. I still have the Delos and looking to repair it when i move to Japan.

I can imagine the Atlas is amazing, but a little beyond what i want to pay. Love to hear sometime though.

Myles B. Astor
March 7, 2015, 12:56 AM
give the kleos a few more hours and they'll be indistinguishable from one another:P I owned both and imo they're cut from the same sonic cloth. makes me wonder if the Atlas is worth the premium (of course its is:rolleyes:).

Syntax, who is an experienced 'phile on audiogon and owns most if not all of the current Lyras, rates the Delos highly..

Of course when you get into the rarified air of the creme de la creme of transducers, the arm and phono section (not to mention table) is especially important. Ergo,the Kleos may perform better in a wider range of arms than the Atlas will. Me thinks that if you hear the Atlas in your system, you would be very impressed by what it does and there would be no question of its superiority.

The best arms and tables have improved to the point that I feel that the colorations and limitations of phono sections - particularly when it comes to dynamics and noise floor - are currently the limiting factor in analog playback. Of course the situation is always fluid.

Of course the Lyra has to be blessed by Dietrich first or It's crap.

XV-1
March 7, 2015, 01:00 AM
I agree with you. I prefer the sound of the Delos I find it has better air and action in the upper frequencies and a bit more boogie in the bass. The Kleos to me also sounded a little constrained/contained and not enough air in the upper frequencies.

first up, try the Kleos loaded a bit higher towards 500ohms - it will open up a bit more and the bass will develop.

cheers

Harris4crna
March 7, 2015, 02:42 AM
Thank you. I'll try 500ohms and let you know. The tracking force is 1.75, but the shop set it at 2.2 g. I compromised at 2.0g where it sounded fuller than the recommended 1.75. What's your experience?

Myles B. Astor
March 7, 2015, 10:47 AM
Thank you. I'll try 500ohms and let you know. The tracking force is 1.75, but the shop set it at 2.2 g. I compromised at 2.0g where it sounded fuller than the recommended 1.75. What's your experience?

First, 10 hours is no hours. The Lyras definitely take 50 hours or more to break in. Initially, they sound good for 5 or so hours, then the performance drops until about 30 hours (you may even hear some mild mistracking) and then everything loosens up and comes together. But clearly the frequency extremes are compromised at the beginning. In fact, the low end and dynamics are the last qualities to stabilize.

Second, sorry to be so blunt but can the setup guy in your store read? The newest Lyras because of their construction and magnet/coil juxtaposition MUST be tracked at the recommended tracking force! 1.75 gm should be perfect in the VPI arm.

So after the cartridge breaks in and you still think it's bass shy, then the question is whether they set the geometry, particularly the SRA/VTA correctly. If the Kleos is still bass shy, you may want to play with dropping the arm height.

Finally, given that you have a ss phono section, I'd definitely try for 10X the internal impedance or slightly higher. Try 75-180 ohm area but think you will be happier at 100 ohms after the geometry and tracking force issues are settled.

Your patience will be rewarded.

MDP
March 7, 2015, 10:58 AM
I had the Delos on my Classic 1 before I bought the Kleos. To be honest, I'm not sure the Kleos is worth the extra money over the Delos.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Kleos. But I'm pretty sure I would have been just as happy with the Delos.

Myles B. Astor
March 7, 2015, 11:17 AM
I had the Delos on my Classic 1 before I bought the Kleos. To be honest, I'm not sure the Kleos is worth the extra money over the Delos.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Kleos. But I'm pretty sure I would have been just as happy with the Delos.

Were you able to compare them side by side? That's really the telling test.

Olskool
March 7, 2015, 11:44 AM
Great thread guys. I'm really getting good input here. I'm eagerly awaiting the arrival of my new Delos cart. I was fortunate enough to do a side by side listen on a Linn TT setup similar to mine and could hear them in close order. There was no question the Kleos had more dynamics and exhibited a more airy and detailed presentation. It was a cut above. Money,however made my final decision to go with Delos but it was easy since I listened to the Delos before the Kleos and was bowled over right then. Had i not heard the Kleos it would still be sonic nirvana for me. Olskool


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

MDP
March 7, 2015, 11:52 AM
Were you able to compare them side by side? That's really the telling test.

No I didn't Myles. And you're right, that's the only way to be sure. But I was told that the Kleos was a pretty significant upgrade, and I just didn't feel that it was.

That said, I really do love it and I don't plan on changing anytime in the near future.

puroagave
March 7, 2015, 11:53 AM
if cash is tight, the Dorian is an alternative to the Delos. I imported one a few months ago with the Koetsu. the street price in Japan is a bargain at under 700 and it delivers the sonic goods . i don't think Audioquest brings them in (shame).

mep
March 7, 2015, 11:56 AM
if cash is tight, the Dorian is an alternative to the Delos. I imported one a few months ago with the Koetsu. the street price in Japan is a bargain under 700 and it delivers the sonic goods . i don't think Audioquest brings them in (shame).


How does it compare to the Delos??

Myles B. Astor
March 7, 2015, 12:14 PM
if cash is tight, the Dorian is an alternative to the Delos. I imported one a few months ago with the Koetsu. the street price in Japan is a bargain at under 700 and it delivers the sonic goods . i don't think Audioquest brings them in (shame).

As the Dorian is listed on Lyra's website as out of production, the best explanation is this seller luckily either had some in stock or they were counterfeit. Hopefully not the last but not unbeknownst nowadays.

LYRA - Transducer (http://www.lyraconnoisseur.com/Products/Products_Analog/transducer.html)

puroagave
March 7, 2015, 12:16 PM
the bass is nearly the same, the Delos is slighlty more resolving (barely) the stage width, depth and very similar. Spec-wise the Delos has a lower internal impedance and by extension a lower output. (.45 vs .6) I can see throwing away the performance advantage of the Delos if your phonostage has borderline gain or limited loading options. they're both built to high standards.

mep
March 7, 2015, 12:23 PM
the bass is nearly the same, the Delos is slighlty more resolving (barely) the stage width, depth and very similar. Spec-wise the Delos has a lower internal impedance and by extension a lower output. (.45 vs .6) I can see throwing away the performance advantage of the Delos if your phonostage has borderline gain or limited loading options. they're both built to high standards.

Thanks. I'm currently missing the Hagerman Trumpet Reference phono section that I just reviewed and have sent back to Jim Hagerman.

puroagave
March 7, 2015, 12:24 PM
As the Dorian is listed on Lyra's website as out of production, the best explanation is this seller luckily either had some in stock or they were counterfeit. Hopefully not the last but not unbeknownst nowadays.

LYRA - Transducer (http://www.lyraconnoisseur.com/Products/Products_Analog/transducer.html)

NOS then, get 'em while they're hot! OOP doesn't phase me, my favorite Lyras are 20 years old (Clavis DC, Helikon)

BTW, Im buying direct from B&M shops in Japan, no way they're counterfeit, 2nds or whatever.

Myles B. Astor
March 7, 2015, 12:31 PM
NOS then, get 'em while they're hot! OOP doesn't phase me, my favorite Lyras are 20 years old (Clavis DC, Helikon)

BTW, Im buying direct from B&M shops in Japan, no way they're counterfeit, 2nds or whatever.

No Helikon fan here. Never warmed up to it because the Helikon had an unnatural thinness to the lower midrange/upper bass region. While it was far more money, the Parnassus really outperformed and highlighted the Helikon's weaknesses.

audioarcher
March 7, 2015, 01:05 PM
I have heard the Delos, Kleos SL, and the Etna in my system briefly. None of them were broken in so take my thoughts with a grain of salt. Had the Delos first. It was very clear sounding but not as resolving as I would like. Could be that would improve with break in. Then a few months later I got to try the Kleos SL and Etna at the same time. Tried the Kleos SL first. It sounded quite a bit different than the Delos to me. Of course the lower output probably had something to do with that. The Kleos SL was more tame and less energetic than the Delos but was a bit more resolving in the mid range. I would have liked a little more treble, and bass energy from the Kleos.
http://audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=10047&stc=1
Finally I tried the Etna. Now this is more like it! A nice balance of energy with plenty of clarity and resolution. Unfortunately above my budget for now.:(
http://audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=10048&stc=1
I believe a lot will depend on the phono stage and arm/turntable combo you are using. Hard to say what will sound best in another system.

mep
March 7, 2015, 01:20 PM
Sean-What phono stage were you using and how much gain were you using?

Loop4fun
March 7, 2015, 02:01 PM
I was lucky enough to pick up a used Lyra Erodion SUT that should be tried with either of these cartridges. Designed for Lyra's low impedance cartridges, it's phenomenal with the Etna. It really brings home the goods! The Erodion steps the cartridge up 26db and it mates perfectly with the mm phono input of the Shindo preamp which has 40db of gain.

It's dead silent and extremely resolving. It weighs almost six pounds... Much heftier than I would have thought. And gorgeous in person!

http://audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=10049&stc=1http://audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=10050&stc=1

audioarcher
March 7, 2015, 02:01 PM
Hi Mark, Using a Lehmann Silver Cube Reference. It has adjustable gain 36 db for MM. 56 and 66 db for MC. It uses transistors for the MM gain and opamps for the additional MC gain. I find it sounds best without the opamps engaged but then I have to use a MM cart. It still sounds very good with the opamps but I feel it would sound better if it was an all discrete design. Unfortunately an all discrete design would likely be more noisy and/or expensive. That said I still really like this phono stage and for the price I don't think it can be beat. It is also very quiet.

I had plenty of gain for the Kleos SL in the 66 db gain position. The sound quality is slightly worse at 66 db as opposed to 56 db. One more opamp in the signal path.

mep
March 7, 2015, 02:33 PM
Hi Mark, Using a Lehmann Silver Cube Reference. It has adjustable gain 36 db for MM. 56 and 66 db for MC. It uses transistors for the MM gain and opamps for the additional MC gain. I find it sounds best without the opamps engaged but then I have to use a MM cart. It still sounds very good with the opamps but I feel it would sound better if it was an all discrete design. Unfortunately an all discrete design would likely be more noisy and/or expensive. That said I still really like this phono stage and for the price I don't think it can be beat. It is also very quiet.

I had plenty of gain for the Kleos SL in the 66 db gain position. The sound quality is slightly worse at 66 db as opposed to 56 db. One more opamp in the signal path.

That and your maximum gain setting may explain your feelings towards the Kleos. I think it's hard to have too much gain for a LOMC cartridge unless the gain is noisy. Maybe I can interest you in my Krell KPE Reference phono stage with outboard power supply. It has gain selectable from 58dB to 76dB in 6dB increments and it's quiet.

audioarcher
March 7, 2015, 02:40 PM
That and your maximum gain setting may explain your feelings towards the Kleos. I think it's hard to have too much gain for a LOMC cartridge unless the gain is noisy. Maybe I can interest you in my Krell KPE Reference phono stage with outboard power supply. It has gain selectable from 58dB to 76dB in 6dB increments and it's quiet.

Could be. Did not get to hear it with other phono stages. The phono stage is a big factor in which cartridge sounds best in any particular system.

audioarcher
March 7, 2015, 03:07 PM
FWIW, I preferred the Delos and Etna on the 56 db setting.

mep
March 7, 2015, 03:19 PM
FWIW, I preferred the Delos and Etna on the 56 db setting.

What linestage and how much gain?

audioarcher
March 7, 2015, 03:28 PM
What linestage and how much gain?

I use the Innersound linestage built into the crossover/bass amp for my speakers. It is capable of 10 db extra gain. I have used an additional linestage into it before but it always resulted in less transparent sound. Gain is not an issue.

dan31
March 7, 2015, 04:49 PM
I'm using the kleos loaded at 47k. VTF is 1.78 grams. The difference between 1.72-1.78 g was just a bit more definition in the bass. Gain is around 54 db. Good luck

audioarcher
March 7, 2015, 04:56 PM
I'm using the kleos loaded at 47k. VTF is 1.78 grams. The difference between 1.72-1.78 g was just a bit more definition in the bass. Gain is around 54 db. Good luck

Sounds about right to me. The Kleos SL has half the output of the regular Kleos. SL stands for single layer of coils. Which puts it around .25 mv of output instead of .5 mv for the regular version. Have not heard the regular version yet.

XV-1
March 7, 2015, 05:08 PM
Thank you. I'll try 500ohms and let you know. The tracking force is 1.75, but the shop set it at 2.2 g. I compromised at 2.0g where it sounded fuller than the recommended 1.75. What's your experience?

Myles is spot on re vtf. Must be tracked at around the Lyra recommended tracked tracking give or take 0.1 gm

What I meant try several loading above 100 up to 500ohms. These are also more within the Lyra recommendation with low/standard capacitance tonearm cable.

IMS the Delos sounds best on 320ohms, Kleos 500ohms and Atlas 500ohms.

Cheers, have fun and let is know what sounds best in your system.

Myles B. Astor
March 7, 2015, 05:20 PM
Myles is spot on re vtf. Must be tracked at around the Lyra recommended tracked tracking give or take 0.1 gm

What I meant try several loading above 100 up to 500ohms. These are also more within the Lyra recommendation with low/standard capacitance tonearm cable.

IMS the Delos sounds best on 320ohms, Kleos 500ohms and Atlas 500ohms.

Cheers, have fun.

Shane do you find the same loading recommendations on the PASS and TW Akustic phono stages?

XV-1
March 7, 2015, 05:38 PM
Shane do you find the same loading recommendations on the PASS and TW Akustic phono stages?

Hi Myles

With the Kleos and Atlas - yes. The TW goes from 220ohms to 500 ohms. Above that I have no further benefits with upper frequency extension/air but the bass loses a bit of control vs 500ohns.

With the Delos, Pass 320ohms and TW 220ohms.

The Lyra's seem to be consistent with loading whereas with some of my other carts, like the Dl-S1 the tube phono is consistently loaded a bit higher than the Pass.

I guess you prefer the Atlas loaded down, which seems a bit different to Lyra recommendations. The transformer input of the Doshi perhaps makes loading slightly different?

Cheers

Myles B. Astor
March 7, 2015, 05:59 PM
Hi Myles

With the Kleos and Atlas - yes. The TW goes from 220ohms to 500 ohms. Above that I have no further benefits with upper frequency extension/air but the bass loses a bit of control vs 500ohns.

With the Delos, Pass 320ohms and TW 220ohms.

The Lyra's seem to be consistent with loading whereas with some of my other carts, like the Dl-S1 the tube phono is consistently loaded a bit higher than the Pass.

I guess you prefer the Atlas loaded down, which seems a bit different to Lyra recommendations. The transformer input of the Doshi perhaps makes loading slightly different?

Cheers

No the Doshi uses a JFET input not that different from Curl did. No transformers involved.

Thing is once you get above 10X internal impedance, certainly at 100X, the cartridge is for all intents and purposes unloaded.

XV-1
March 7, 2015, 06:26 PM
No the Doshi uses a JFET input not that different from Curl did. No transformers involved.

Thing is once you get above 10X internal impedance, certainly at 100X, the cartridge is for all intents and purposes unloaded.

Ah, misread your review. Thought is was like the K&K audio phono with fet and SUT in the gain stage to help the tube gain.


.Nick opted for a JFET input a la John Curl and a custom designed interstage coupling transformer (made by Brian Sowter (UK) wound with PCOCC wire) to convert from balanced to single-ended operation.

Myles B. Astor
March 7, 2015, 06:31 PM
Ah, misread your review. Thought is was like the K&K audio phono with fet and SUT in the gain stage to help the tube gain.

Guess I didn't consider that a SUT. :)

Harris4crna
March 7, 2015, 08:16 PM
Thanks for all the replies. The salesman dialed it in at 2.2g and stated the suspension can handle it. I dialed back to 2.0g and sounds great. As suggested i changed to 420ohms (500ohms is not an option). Wow, bass has arrived. I may try to change the tracking weight to the suggested 1.75g now and see if it makes a difference. Just curious, having it at 2.0 cause any damage to the suspension over time? Im looking to the experts on this one, thank you.

XV-1
March 7, 2015, 08:28 PM
Thanks for all the replies. The salesman dialed it in at 2.2g and stated the suspension can handle it. I dialed back to 2.0g and sounds great. As suggested i changed to 420ohms (500ohms is not an option). Wow, bass has arrived. I may try to change the tracking weight to the suggested 1.75g now and see if it makes a difference. Just curious, having it at 2.0 cause any damage to the suspension over time? Im looking to the experts on this one, thank you.

Excellent. I was pretty sure loading it higher was going to improve things quite a bit.

2 gms is outside of the cartridges tracking force specs and Lyra spend a lot of time fine tuning that - you will notice in the manual that they have an exact recommendation of tracking force. You will see the Lyra is a pretty low rider anyway, so in time it may be an issue.

I would definately change it back to within the recommended settings.

btw, your dealer sounds almost incompetent.

mep
March 7, 2015, 08:52 PM
Excellent. I was pretty sure loading it higher was going to improve things quite a bit.

2 gms is outside of the cartridges tracking force specs and Lyra spend a lot of time fine tuning that - you will notice in the manual that they have an exact recommendation of tracking force. You will see the Lyra is a pretty low rider anyway, so in time it may be an issue.

I would definately change it back to within the recommended settings.

btw, your dealer sounds almost incompetent.


Agreed, but I think it passes "almost."

audioarcher
March 7, 2015, 09:28 PM
Agreed, but I think it passes "almost."

+1 2.2 grams is nuts for a Lyra. Always go with the tracking force recommended by the manufacture. 2 grams is still way too much.

Harris4crna
March 7, 2015, 09:51 PM
Roger that, i will change to its recommended TF, thanks.

Harris4crna
March 7, 2015, 10:44 PM
FWIW, I preferred the Delos and Etna on the 56 db setting.

I currently have the Kleos gain set at 66db. Tried higher, but just sounded grainy.

Myles B. Astor
March 7, 2015, 10:58 PM
I currently have the Kleos gain set at 66db. Tried higher, but just sounded grainy.

Yes can be a trade off between gain and additional gain stages. What is the gain of your line stage?

Harris4crna
March 7, 2015, 10:59 PM
Forgive my incompetence, line stage?

puroagave
March 7, 2015, 11:02 PM
I currently have the Kleos gain set at 66db. Tried higher, but just sounded grainy.

ugh...i have yet to hear any phonostage, SS or tube that sounds good and remains transparent pushing 60+ db of gain. the total equation involves your line stage gain, input sensitivity of your amp and efficiency of the speakers themselves.

puroagave
March 7, 2015, 11:03 PM
whats the line stage gain of your 740p?

puroagave
March 7, 2015, 11:06 PM
i looked it up, 9 db...that's really low.

Harris4crna
March 7, 2015, 11:08 PM
I set it at 66db per the recommendation of the Simaudio 810lp manual. It states the following: When you are using a moving coil cartridge, you will need to increase the gain level setting. This is a general rule for determining the gain of a MC cartridge: For a low output MC cartridge (0.7mV and lower), set the gain level to at least 66dB; medium output MC (0.7mV to 1.5mV) set the gain level to 60dB; for a high output MC (> 1.5mV) set the gain level to 54dB. Since every audio system is different, these are just approximated values.

This why i set it at 66db. I can try a lower setting and see.

Harris4crna
March 7, 2015, 11:10 PM
i looked it up, 9 db...that's really low.

Puro, so what does this mean? Ill need to use more gain since my line stage is set at 9db? I am using transparent XLR for my IC through out if this makes a difference. Decreasing to 60db, i need to increase volume on the 740p to 65 which is 10 higher than i usually play it.

puroagave
March 7, 2015, 11:27 PM
i'll revise my statement and say the 740p is on the low side. the standard kleos (.5mv) is a med output cart it doesn't sound like you're necessarily lacking gain. i would go with the lowest phono gain setting you can get away with and make up the difference with the line stage, it will mitigate excess noise coming from your phono set up. 9 db of line stage gain dosen't give much to play with, my system likes 15 db at minimum, my CAT has a whopping 27 db.

Harris4crna
March 7, 2015, 11:43 PM
Thanks Puro, i got Tf at 1.72g, 420ohms and gain of 60db. Turned up the line stage to make up difference and its sounds purely magnificent. Time to play some tunes.

XV-1
March 7, 2015, 11:45 PM
Puro, so what does this mean? Ill need to use more gain since my line stage is set at 9db? I am using transparent XLR for my IC through out if this makes a difference. Decreasing to 60db, i need to increase volume on the 740p to 65 which is 10 higher than i usually play it.

Some preamps with lower resolution volume steps have a "sweet" spot on the volume control which is not a good thing imo, as the sound quality should be the same whether the volume is on 10 or 85. The volume number on the pre amp should make no difference to the sound quality and that would be true with your Sim pre amp as it is well designed.

Just select the phono gain that sounds the best, whether that be at 60db or 66db. Since you have done all your listening at 66db, I would leave it there until you get a handle on the changes you have made with loading and tracking weight.

cheers

Harris4crna
March 7, 2015, 11:57 PM
Guess this is what makes this hobby fun. The art of fine tuning. I will say the Delos made the fine tuning easy. The Kleos is much more sensitive for sure. Love to see some of your guys setup. Thanks.

mep
March 8, 2015, 11:04 AM
i looked it up, 9 db...that's really low.

Not as low as the 6dB gain of my ARC Ref 5 SE. I don't know what phono stages you have heard that don't sound good or transparent when set at 60dB of gain, but that has to be in the context of your system. The worst combination you can have is a very low output cartridge and a phono stage without enough gain to drive it properly. Yeah, it will be quiet without enough gain and your volume turned down low, but it will be dead sounding. But then, you are hooked on SUTs aren't you?

puroagave
March 8, 2015, 01:24 PM
Puro, so what does this mean? Ill need to use more gain since my line stage is set at 9db? I am using transparent XLR for my IC through out if this makes a difference. Decreasing to 60db, i need to increase volume on the 740p to 65 which is 10 higher than i usually play it.

the 740p uses a DVC of some sort to control volume. your manual should state the numerical value on the display that translates to unity gain. if your usual listening volume is at or below unity gain then you have plenty of head room. an experiment you can try is lowering the phono gain another step, you'll need to raise the level to a higher numerical value on the 740p for the same volume but it may yield a slightly better (or worse ) s/n of your phono setup.

today's line stages are mostly low-gain and optimized for digital sources, its part of the current obsession with improving specs. high gain line stages really benefit phono user most. my pet peeve of current SOTA gear is the lack of adjustable line stage gain and adjustable input sensitivity (power amps).

puroagave
March 8, 2015, 01:32 PM
Not as low as the 6dB gain of my ARC Ref 5 SE. I don't know what phono stages you have heard that don't sound good or transparent when set at 60dB of gain, but that has to be in the context of your system. The worst combination you can have is a very low output cartridge and a phono stage without enough gain to drive it properly. Yeah, it will be quiet without enough gain and your volume turned down low, but it will be dead sounding. But then, you are hooked on SUTs aren't you?

Have you heard the same phono stage that sounds better at 60 db of gain than 45? I never have. with the CAT I have the option of using a SUT or not. with the Koetsu at .4mv I have enough clean gain. I've rewired my SUTs and lowered them to 10 db for my Clavis DC (.25mV), the CAT will still take the Clavis straight in w/o the SUT and the noise floor is still bearable.

mep
March 8, 2015, 02:51 PM
Have you heard the same phono stage that sounds better at 60 db of gain than 45? I never have. with the CAT I have the option of using a SUT or not. with the Koetsu at .4mv I have enough clean gain. I've rewired my SUTs and lowered them to 10 db for my Clavis DC (.25mV), the CAT will still take the Clavis straight in w/o the SUT and the noise floor is still bearable.

First of all, I haven't owned any MC cartridges in the last 100 years or so that would work with only 45dB of gain without a boatload of noise so I really can't answer your first question. I owned a CAT preamp before, and I didn't find it's performance with LOMC cartridges to be the joy that others who love CAT do. I can't imagine that the CAT will be quiet with a .25mV cartridge because I know from experience it won't. I never thought the phono section in the CAT was all it was touted to be. I also never liked the course steps on the volume pot. Unlike Goldilocks, it's damn near impossible to find 'just right' on the volume control. I was happy to move the CAT on down the road and never look back.

I am hoping to get a chance to hear the Zesto phono stage in my system and it does use SUTs. I heard a full Zesto system at RMAF 2014 and was mightily impressed.

puroagave
March 8, 2015, 03:14 PM
Mark, i take it you never owned a high-gain line stage or owned an ARC SP-11. I had one in the house recently, one of the best full-featured preamps I've had the pleasure of owning: only 46 db of phono gain and 29 db of line stage gain - it was optimized for carts down to .3mV or so. Which version of the CAT did you own? the Mk I & II was a different animal. the MK III is essentially the same circuit as the current Ultimate sans the defeatable internal SUT, adjustable line stage gain and dual mono pots.

I owned the Zesto andros, it wasnt bad but the Rouge Ares I compared it to out-boogied it for a lot less coin.

mep
March 8, 2015, 03:31 PM
Mark, i take it you never owned a high-gain line stage or owned an ARC SP-11. I had one in the house recently, one of the best full-featured preamps I've had the pleasure of owning: only 46 db of phono gain and 29 db of line stage gain - it was optimized for carts down to .3mV or so. Which version of the CAT did you own? the Mk I & II was a different animal. the MK III is essentially the same circuit as the current Ultimate sans the defeatable internal SUT, adjustable line stage gain and dual mono pots.

I owned the Zesto andros, it wasnt bad but the Rouge Ares I compared it to out-boogied it for a lot less coin.

Depends on what you want to call high-gain. I owned the CAT and it was the MKII. I owned a fully tricked out Counterpoint SA-5.1 preamp which had selectable gain from 12dB to 18dB. Tell me more about the Rogue phono section. In what meaningful way did it sound better than the Zesto?

Harris4crna
March 8, 2015, 06:34 PM
740p manual states: The rotary “volume” control determines the gain setting, which ranges from ‘0.0dB’ (no output) to ’80.0dB’ (full output). This control does not function like a typical volume: When you rotate the dial, either clockwise to raise the volume or counter- clockwise to lower the volume, you are actually engaging a precision optical encoder which selects very high quality metal-film resistors that the audio signal passes through. The result is a proprietary
gain circuit, called M-eVOL2 that doesn’t degrade the audio signal regardless of the setting, unlike all potentiometer based circuits. Since this circuitry operates in a fully balanced differential mode, no noise is introduced to the audio signal. Furthermore, there are no actual moving parts, so this technology has a minimum life expectancy of one million rotations.

So, having an optimal loudness (no need to go louder) of the volume control set at 65 at current gain at 60db set in the phonostage should be fine.

Harris4crna
March 11, 2015, 11:48 PM
After tweaking loading, gain and changing TF i am convinced Kleos is better than my old Delos. Just sensitive and need to be tweaked to get it right.

BobM
March 12, 2015, 03:23 PM
In the process of purchasing a Kleos. Thanks for all the detailed setup info guys. It will come in handy.

Mike
March 12, 2015, 03:29 PM
In the process of purchasing a Kleos. Thanks for all the detailed setup info guys. It will come in handy.

http://www.needledoctor.com/Lyra-Kleos-Media-Image.jpg

Sweet!!! Congrats Bob.

Harris4crna
October 26, 2015, 04:47 AM
Here i am again with the new Accuphase C-3850 line stage with adjustable gain settings. The C-3850 has adjustable gain to 24db with a recommended gain setting of 18db. Have the simaudio 810lp connected with balance cables to the bal(ad) inputs of the c-3850. Not sure what the significance of the AD on the c-3850, but the manual recommends to utilize the inputs for a phono stage. I have A/B the C-3850 with the simaudio 740p which has a fixed gain setting of 9db. I will say playing vinyl with the current phono stage settings set for the moon does not do as well with the C-3850. Sounds a little muddied through the C-3850. I am thinking i may need to decrease the gain of the phono stage to match the c-3850. Perhaps the simaudio phono stage dont play well with other brands other than their own, who knows. Thought?


Harris4crna. Accuphase A-70 class a amp and C-3850 preamp. Franco Serblin Ktema speakers. VPI Classic 1 TT with Simaudio 810LP phono stage and VPI SDS. Transparent Reference Speaker cable and IC. Quadraspire racks and much more.