Any Shindo 604 AlNiCo owners here?

[briguy]

I was planning to buy some DeVore 0/96's to pair with a Vosne Romanee and Lafon GM70 monoblocks. After an extensive listening session, we pulled out the 604's to give a listen.

I thought they were pretty amazing. That said, we only had a chance to listen to small range of music and I definitely didn't run them through the paces. I heard enough that I'm leaning toward the 604's now, but I'd like to hear any feedback on strengths and weaknesses of this particular speaker form longtime owners.

The dealer isn't local, so I doubt I'll have a chance to give them another in-person listen.

[joeinid]

I bet they sound really nice ...


http://pitchperfectaudio.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/shindo-604e-v21.jpg?w=497&h=790

[Cucumber_jones]

Yes, kev has a pair of 604's. Briguy, you should post your pitch perfect visit thread on the shark as well. I read it at Hoffman and it was great.

[KeithR]

I thought the Shindo and Devore speakers sound a bit different. Devore a bit more modern, while the Shindo was bigger and more effortless. I heard the O96 and the Latours- clearly the Latours are a much bigger speaker.

[dlb2]

So that being said, they really shouldn't be compared.

Sent from my HTC One.

[KeithR]

not really- the Shindo speakers have a more vintage house sound. They also are higher efficiency.

[briguy]

Yes, kev has a pair of 604's. Briguy, you should post your pitch perfect visit thread on the shark as well. I read it at Hoffman and it was great.
Sure thing... here's my report that I originally posted on the Hoffman forums:



I've come to realize that Bill Hart gives me some of the best advice of anyone out there. He understands the sound I'm looking for (I think) and has never steered me wrong. I always wish I had taken his advice earlier. And so it is with my visit to Pitch Perfect.

I don't think Bill knows Matt at Pitch Perfect personally since he is based on the East Coast, but he knew of them by reputation and told me 4+ months ago that I should seek them out. I finally made that happen this weekend and, of course, wish I'd made the trip earlier.

As many of you may know, Matt is the Shindo dealer for the West Coast. He owns Pitch Perfect and also carries the really amazing Line Magnetic stuff along with a few other brands. He's all about high efficiency speakers and tubey goodness. He was based in San Francisco (my home) for years, but now runs his shop out of Los Angeles.

About the shop... it's pretty much Disney World for audiophiles. I didn't take many pics, but you can find plenty online. The shop is perfect. It's intimate, but large enough to hold a ton of good stuff. There's really only one listening room. This makes sense since Matt is by appointment only (as all good shops should be). You get total distraction-free one-on-one attention. This certainly isn't a high volume, high pressure, move-'em-in/move 'em out kind of shop.

The loft is the perfect size with very comfortable and homey furnishings. It isn't set up like a professional listening room. I think this is absolutely key. It's one thing to make a system sound good in a professionally treated music-only room. But the reality is that a lot of people also need to live in their listening room. You can listen with a lot more confidence when you're listening to a system in a room that looks and feels like your living room at home. If you have the benefit of a professional listening room, well, you can just imagine that you'll probably get even better sound than what you hear in the shop. That's a big plus.

There's Shindo, DeVore and Line Magnetic equipment everywhere, but nothing feels cluttered. It's more like visiting an art gallery. If you go anytime soon, you'll likely need to wipe my drool off half the stuff. ;)

Matt has great taste in music. By that I mean he listens to a lot of what I like. ;) There was a lot in the record collection. This was nice because I didn't want to bring any LP's with me since I wanted to hit up Amoeba Records before my visit which is only a few blocks away ($4 Uber ride as it turned out). I arrived and Matt had a ton of beer, wine and whiskey ready for me along with lots of sandwiches and snacks. We had an espresso first and I picked out some LP's to get started with.

I went down thinking I'd be getting the DeVore 0/96's, so we started with those. I'm very intrigued by the Line Magnetic 219ia SET integrated. We started there, but used one of the lower level Shino's as the pre-amp.

Even before anything had warmed up, you could immediately hear the Shindo sound everyone talks about. It's hard to describe until you hear it yourself. I guess the best way I can describe it is that it has this certain harmonic goodness where everything just sounds pleasing to the ears. Others call this "musical".

I realize this is probably an annoying description, especially if you haven't heard the Shindo stuff and makes it easy to dismiss Shindo fans as cultists. It certainly felt a bit like that before I made the trip. But it's hard to describe in audiophile terms precisely because it seems to eschew the typical audiophile approach of exaggerating stuff (soundstage, detail, bass, etc).

There does seem to be a certain coloration, almost like an Instagram photo filter. The Shindo filter somehow manages to color everything in this very harmonic way where EVERYTHING just seems to have this unified harmony. I realize I'm using that word a lot. It's just the only thing that seems like a good description.

The only negative I felt about the sound was that vocals sounded different. Not bad at all. Just different than I'm used to. It didn't take long at all for the vocal presentation to seem totally natural and "right", but it was the first thing that jumped out where I was wondering if there was too much coloration going on.

We spent 3-4 hours with the DeVore 0/96's and various Shindo pre-amp and amp combos. It's quite difficult to describe differences between the various components for two reasons. First, time was limited and so there were only a few tracks we listened to on multiple components (mostly stuff of Ziggy Stardust). Second, we hooked up the Vosne Romanee pre-amp pretty quickly and just stuck with that for the rest of the day. The pre-amp is amazing and definitely exerts a strong "sound" onto the other components.

I'm sure differences would have been more readily apparent if I had more time to do direct comparisons. Here's what I can tell you though... they are all amazing. You know that zone you can get in when the music is so good that you just close your eyes and almost nod off like you're a little stoned from the music? Well, I can tell you that was happening on just about every track and I was most certainly not stoned. I was hypnotized and mesmerized by the tone. It just really draws you in. I've rarely had that experience auditioning other equipment and never had it so consistently over such a vast variety of music. We pretty much settled into the Vosne Romanee and the Lafon GM70 monoblocks. They are gorgeous and delivered the punch I was hoping for in spades.


After 3-4 hours, we moved on to the big field-coil Latours. These are out of my price range right now, but I really wanted to hear what they're about. Matt played some percussion from an Indian drummer recorded in the 60's to warm the speaker up. Holy cow. It sounded like the musicians were in the room with us! The tone was amazing and you could really feel the music.


I didn't spend as much time with the Latour's as I would have like. There just wasn't enough time and I knew that I could afford the Latour's right now. It was pretty clear after 4 or 5 tracks that the Latour's are something more than special. Maybe one day.

The reason that we didn't have enough time to spend with the Latour's is that I eyeballed the pair of Shindo 604 AlNiCo's that Matt had in another room. They were as big as the Latour's, but with a very different approach. There's not a lot out there about this speaker, so I hadn't thought about it much and hadn't even planned to listen to them. I'm glad I did.

The 604's definitely share the Shindo sound. I'm lazy, so I'm going to borrow what I wrote about these in another thread earlier today...

It does a lot of what the Latour does at less than half the price. I'm leaning toward this speaker at this point, but I was only able to spend about an hour listening to the speaker and didn't get to throw a full barrage of musical genres at it.

We started with some Chet Atkins and the tone was incredible. I was immediately intrigued. Since we didn't have a lot of time, I wanted to test the 604's with some "thicker" more thumping music. We put on some Depeche Mode. Honestly, I wasn't impressed at first. It was way too relaxed, distant and polite.

Matt went behind the 604's and made some adjustments. Apparently, you're able to tune the speakers to your room and preference. We played the same Depeche Mode tracks and... holy smokes... it was like a totally different speaker. All of a sudden, it felt like Depeche Mode was playing right in front of me.

We threw on some Kraftwerk and it was like getting punched in the gut. Exactly what I was looking for. We finished up with some tracks off Ziggy Stardust which were the only tracks we played on every speaker/amp combo as our baseline. Frankly, that album sounded AMAZING on everything we tried, a testament to the Shindo pre-amp as well as the quality of the recording. It's one of my favorite albums of all time, but it's never sounded as good as it did on the Shindo stuff.

The 604's most definitely aren't 2-3x as good as the Devore 0/96's. There's definitely diminishing returns and I'd totally be happy with the DeVore's. That said, the Shindo 604's felt "worth it" for the amazing stuff they could do that the 0/96's just couldn't muster at quite the same level. You just feel the music more and the 604's seemed to get even better at the volumes I like to listen to music. They were effortless and airy.


So... I left Pitch Perfect to catch my flight. Matt drove me in his crazy tricked out Jeep. This is no small endeavor in Los Angeles. It seemed to take forever to navigate the Saturday evening rush hour traffic. I left tired, but wishing I had more time to evaluate the big Shindo speakers.

The next morning I woke up and kinda just said "eff it". I want the big Shindo's. The Latour's just aren't gonna happen right now, but the 604's are oh so sweet.


I'll be putting the entire system together over the next 6 months as budget allows. Right now the plan is to get the 604's and use my PrimaLuna to drive them. I'll get the Vosne Romanee in Jan/Feb and the Lafon GM70 monoblocks around March/April if things go as planned. My only regret is that I really want to live with that Line Magnetic 219ia for awhile. That things is NICE, especially for the price. I really wish I had another room to put it in. :)


Note: Apologies for the formatting. Apparently I don't have enough posts here to be able to post images. :(

[Jerome W]

Great and interesting write up !
Thanks a lot ! And big Congrats for the steep diving in the Shindo world !


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[mep]

So what's special about how Shindo mounts a pair of Altec 604s inside of a box vice buying/building Altec 604 boxes? Does Shindo change something on the actual Altec drivers?

[Mike]

How much are these speakers?


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[Paul]

how much are these speakers?


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34k. ( by cnet )

[Petro85]

I bet they sound really nice ...


http://pitchperfectaudio.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/shindo-604e-v21.jpg?w=497&h=790

ok i gotta ask. are these the speakers or the crate that the real $34k speakers come inside?? cause they look like diy with wood dowels for legs to me. must be something real special inside!! :hey: they might sound incredible as i never heard them but boy are they as basic looking as it comes. sorry if anyone feels insulted but i had to say it. been bugging me all day. tannoy dc10a's are 1/2 that price and also use alnico driver and are gorgeous. im just sayin.lol.

[Jerome W]

I find the Shindo gorgeous.
They have a " form follows function" appearance and they look like art to me.

[Mike]

I find the Shindo gorgeous.
They have a " form follows function" appearance and they look like art to me.

They sound how they look? ;)

I had a chance to listen to Paul's Shindo amp/preamp this past weekend. It's very very pretty sounding and what astonished me was how quiet the backgrounds were (for tube amps). But at the end of the day, I found the Shindo gear rolled off on the top and struggling with complex/dynamic music (example: Mahler). If you listen to female vocals and acoustic guitar and that sort of thing, then they sounded oh so romantically delightful. I now better understand the love for these little green boxes.


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[Cucumber_jones]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I think they look fantastic. I also think most modern speakers look like a pile of shit.

Mep - ken does more then cram some altec drivers in a box.

For those who don't care for the look of shindo or have never heard a shindo system why not keep your negotiate opinions to yourselves.


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[Cucumber_jones]

Great review briguy! It's like we were in the room with you and Matt!


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[Cucumber_jones]

They sound how they look? ;)

I had a chance to listen to Paul's Shindo amp/preamp this past weekend. It's very very pretty sounding and what astonished me was how quiet the backgrounds were (for tube amps). But at the end of the day, I found the Shindo gear rolled off on the top and struggling with complex/dynamic music (example: Mahler). If you listen to female vocals and acoustic guitar and that sort of thing, then they sounded oh so romantically delightful. I now better understand the love for these little green boxes.


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Hey mike what speakers was Paul using?


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[Mike]

Hey mike what speakers was Paul using?


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Tannoy WestMinisters.

8339

8340


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[Cucumber_jones]

Mike while no doubt some of the greatest speakers ever both to the eye and the ear Jonathan I suspect would say they are not an idea pairing with shindo amps.

I have no doubt they would be better suited to the mc275's.



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[briguy]

I actually had the same concern (that Shindo would work well on simple music and struggle on complex/dynamic music). That's why I spent my limited time auditioning with rock and more synth-based electronic music with artificial tones and less natural bass. I was really impressed by how good Kraftwerk sounded and it was definitely gut punching. Can't comment on complex Classical music though.

The Shindo 604's apparently have some adjustment knobs on the back to allow you to tune the bass and treble to the room/personal preferences. Like I said in my review, I didn't really ask about the adjustments but boy did they make a difference. The sound on the exact same tracks went from laid back, dark and romantic to punch-you-in-the-gut. And it never lost that feeling of effortless airyness.

[Jerome W]

They sound how they look? ;)

I had a chance to listen to Paul's Shindo amp/preamp this past weekend. It's very very pretty sounding and what astonished me was how quiet the backgrounds were (for tube amps). But at the end of the day, I found the Shindo gear rolled off on the top and struggling with complex/dynamic music (example: Mahler). If you listen to female vocals and acoustic guitar and that sort of thing, then they sounded oh so romantically delightful. I now better understand the love for these little green boxes.


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Mike,

Shindo is precisely about the ability to deliver all the texture and details of very complex and dynamic music.
If this kind of music did not sound good at Paul's place, imho the reason is simple. The Montille is completely unable to drive the Westminsters. You are not hearing Shindo as it was meant to sound.


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[NOLG4EVR]

Tannoy WestMinisters.

8339

8340


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That explains your impressions. Montille plus Tannoy. Not the best way to experience Shindo.


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[Mike]

Mike while no doubt some of the greatest speakers ever both to the eye and the ear Jonathan I suspect would say they are not an idea pairing with shindo amps.

I have no doubt they would be better suited to the mc275's.



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To clarify, his system sounds incredible and the Westies are world class speakers - right up there with Strads and a handful of others IMHO. As for the rolled off slightly, Paul believes that could be due to his CD player, and I don't disagree. As to complex dynamic music, that's the reality of most tube amps with tiny PSU's. My Pass XS amps have 300 pounds of PSU's. They laugh at Mahler and anything - anything - I can throw at them. Just no comparison.

That being said, I still can't get over how black the backgrounds were on the Shindo gear for tube amps.


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[Cucumber_jones]

Mike if it was the montille then that little guy had his work cut out for him. Also the fact that you both think it was the CD player would have been a helpful comment in your first post...


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[Petro85]

I also think most modern speakers look like a pile of shit


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hmmm i see its ok for you to express your negative opinion but others cant? im just giving my opinion on these. like i do any other product on this forum. doesnt matter the manufacturer. only in this shindo forum, people take it personally. even when they dont even own the product in question.
its funny you think only the people who dont like shindo are ones who never heard shindo.
very very untrue.
lighten up some will ya , i hate my speakers too, and alot of others that i comment about .
these speaker look like a diy joke to me. sorry.

[briguy]

To clarify, his system sounds incredible and the Westies are world class speakers - right up there with Strads and a handful of others IMHO. As for the rolled off slightly, Paul believes that could be due to his CD player, and I don't disagree. As to complex dynamic music, that's the reality of most tube amps with tiny PSU's. My Pass XS amps have 300 pounds of PSU's. They laugh at Mahler and anything - anything - I can throw at them. Just no comparison.

That being said, I still can't get over how black the backgrounds were on the Shindo gear for tube amps.


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On the black background... we always had to wait until the music started playing to adjust the volume. Even turned up loud, there was no telling humming from the speakers that let's you know you've set the volume way too high. I think this is partly responsible for why everything sounds so airy. There's just more/better space between the music.

[Cucumber_jones]

Tannoy recommends 50w to 225 watts for these speakers. The montille is well below this. I think it is 18 watts at the most.


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[Mike]

On the black background... we always had to wait until the music started playing to adjust the volume. Even turned up loud, there was no telling humming from the speakers that let's you know you've set the volume way too high. I think this is partly responsible for why everything sounds so airy. There's just more/better space between the music.

I agree. I was simply amazed at the blackest black backgrounds. I don't remember reading that about Shindo gear before. It also tonally sounded so beautiful - but I'm sure the Westies had something to do with that too.

As I said, color me green, I was impressed. Paul has a real keeper system. I do think a pair of CCQ's or the SET 300b amp would be the icing on the cake.


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[Paul]

I will chime in since Mike mention my system.

I had these in my system .

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5590/14745632295_005b9a27e6_z_d.jpg

I have both speakers in the system with DeVore O/96

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3929/15312626837_8829f2bb73_z_d.jpg

and Yes they do shows some struggle with complex and dynamic music. I had more gears come and go last 6 months ( more than Mike LOL)

I heard better amps on my Westies and O/96 in terms of dynamics,punch and speed (i.g : The Tenor and Allnic ) but no other brand produced the vocal better than Shindo period.

P.S; All the spec is a joke I don't believe in that. Sorry.

[Cucumber_jones]

hmmm i see its ok for you to express your negative opinion but others cant? im just giving my opinion on these. like i do any other product on this forum. doesnt matter the manufacturer. only in this shindo forum, people take it personally. even when they dont even own the product in question.
its funny you think only the people who dont like shindo are ones who never heard shindo.
very very untrue.
lighten up some will ya , i hate my speakers too, and alot of others that i comment about .
these speaker look like a diy joke to me. sorry.

Actually I don't roam threads insulting things other people like. I am not suggesting that you do. People just seem to pop up in shindo threads expressing negative opinions and they have never even need a shindo system that is properly set up and put together.


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[Face]

I find the Shindo gorgeous.
They have a " form follows function" appearance and they look like art to me.
It's a plywood box with dowels attached at the sides. I wouldn't call them ugly, but IMO, they don't look like anything special either. How about a fancy veneer, or something to lessen diffraction such as roundovers, etc...

[Cucumber_jones]

I will chime in since Mike mention my system.

I had these in my system .

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5590/14745632295_005b9a27e6_z_d.jpg

I have both speakers in the system with DeVore O/96

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3929/15312626837_8829f2bb73_z_d.jpg

and Yes they do shows some struggle with complex and dynamic music. I had more gears come and go last 6 months ( more than Mike LOL)

I heard better amps on my Westies and O/96 in terms of dynamics,punch and speed (i.g : The Tenor and Allnic ) but no other brand produced the vocal better than Shindo period.

Yeah vocals are insane. These amps are not over 50w either. They are awesome though.


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[KeithR]

They sound how they look? ;)

I had a chance to listen to Paul's Shindo amp/preamp this past weekend. It's very very pretty sounding and what astonished me was how quiet the backgrounds were (for tube amps). But at the end of the day, I found the Shindo gear rolled off on the top and struggling with complex/dynamic music (example: Mahler). If you listen to female vocals and acoustic guitar and that sort of thing, then they sounded oh so romantically delightful. I now better understand the love for these little green boxes.

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Sounds underpowered. Seems like most Tannoy guys say 50 watts for a reason.

[NOLG4EVR]

Mike if it was the montille then that little guy had his work cut out for him. Also the fact that you both think it was the CD player would have been a helpful comment in your first post...


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If the CD player is still the Mac player that definitely was a serious detriment to the experience. As a transport it is ok but the DAC is awful IMO.

Just looking at the volume knob set to 11 o'clock on the VR is very revealing.

My room is nearly four times the size and ten foot ceilings. Playing at that volume level for more than a few minutes would blow me out of the room.


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[Paul]

If the CD player is still the Mac player that definitely was a serious detriment to the experience. As a transport it is ok but the DAC is awful IMO.

Just looking at the volume knob set to 11 o'clock on the VR is very revealing.

My room is nearly four times the size and ten foot ceilings. Playing at that volume level for more than a few minutes would blow me out of the room.


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FYI, I tried several CD players and Turntables .

Some can be better or worse than Shindo sounds. IMO its just what you prefer. Some will never like the Shindo some do so let's leave at that.

[Mike]

Sounds underpowered. Seems like most Tannoy guys say 50 watts for a reason.

Well, FWIW, I thought the Tannoy's sounded way better than the O/96's with the Shindo gear. The Tannoy's really sounded in beautiful musical harmony with the Shindo gear. Damn, I didn't want to stop listening.

As for the O/96's and Shindo, was very underwhelming. Combining gear that struggles with dynamics with speakers that do too was a bad mix IMO.

Paul had another amp there (forget the name) that sounded better with the O/96's and when I heard the O/96's at RMAF with whatever gear they were using there, they sounded better.

The thing that I find about the O/96's in general is that they sound good with female vocals, guitar, etc. But they don't seem to handle complex/dynamic music well. Maybe it's just me - but that's what I hear anyway.


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[Cucumber_jones]

Well, FWIW, I thought the Tannoy's sounded way better than the O/96's with the Shindo gear. The Tannoy's really sounded in beautiful musical harmony with the Shindo gear. Damn, I didn't want to stop listening.

As for the O/96's and Shindo, was very underwhelming. Combining gear that struggles with dynamics with speakers that do too was a bad mix IMO.

Paul had another amp there (forget the name) that sounded better with the O/96's and when I heard the O/96's at RMAF with whatever gear they were using there, they sounded better.

The thing that I find about the O/96's in general is that they sound good with female vocals, guitar, etc. But they don't seem to handle complex/dynamic music well. Maybe it's just me - but that's what I hear anyway.


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It would b interesting to know what type of music ken preferred. I cannot imagine that boutique producer like ken would not lean towards personal preferences.


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[NOLG4EVR]

Well, FWIW, I thought the Tannoy's sounded way better than the O/96's with the Shindo gear. The Tannoy's really sounded in beautiful harmony with the Shindo gear. Damn, I didn't want to stop listening.

As for the O/96's and Shindo, was very underwhelming. Combining gear that struggles with dynamics with speakers that do too was a bad mix IMO.

Paul had another amp there (forget the name) that sounded better with the O/96's and when I heard the O/96's at RMAF with whatever gear they were using there, they sounded better.

The thing that I find about the O/96's in general is that they sound good with female vocals, guitar, etc. But they don't seem to handle complex/dynamic music well. Maybe it's just me - but that's what I hear anyway.


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John would be surprised to hear that. He voiced the 0/96's with Shindo.

We all have our opinions I guess.


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[Mike]

John would be surprised to hear that. He voiced the 0/96's with Shindo.

We all have our opinions I guess.


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I've wanted to love the O/96's ever since I first heard them....and when I hear them with something like Shelby Lynn Just A Little a Loving, I think "oh man, these sound sweet". Then I put on something complex and blah...

As for Shindo and Devore, John said he uses lots of different amps at home - including SS amps which is what he likes to demo with. I can see the SS amps giving some control and needed dynamic punch to the O/96's.


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[omodo]

So what's special about how Shindo mounts a pair of Altec 604s inside of a box vice buying/building Altec 604 boxes? Does Shindo change something on the actual Altec drivers?

Sure, you could buy a pair of 604C/D/E from eBay and put them in any number of Altec cabinets/alignments or follow the advice of a multitude of forum experts, but I guarantee you won't get the results much less the live character that Shindo's tuned (& somewhat unique) cabinets and crossovers will deliver.


It's a plywood box with dowels attached at the sides. I wouldn't call them ugly, but IMO, they don't look like anything special either. How about a fancy veneer, or something to lessen diffraction such as roundovers, etc...

That veneer is Tamo Ash I believe, which is quite a "fancy" veneer. If diffraction, resonances, or such things affect your ability to connect to the music then Shindo speakers probably aren't for you.

[Mike]

Ok...we are off topic (my fault).....back to the 604 AINiCO speakers.


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[Cucumber_jones]

Kevin where are you?


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[mep]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I think they look fantastic. I also think most modern speakers look like a pile of shit.

Mep - ken does more then cram some altec drivers in a box.

For those who don't care for the look of shindo or have never heard a shindo system why not keep your negotiate opinions to yourselves.


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Instead of getting defensive, why not answer the basic questions I asked? Does Shindo modify the 604 drivers? What sets the Shindo cabinet apart from the cabinet that Altec designed to house the 604 drivers for recording studios to be used as monitors? I'm not attacking the Shindo 604 speakers, just asking some basic questions. Cripes.

[Cucumber_jones]

Mep. I neither own them or work in the business. I do know that ken modified every thing he built. I would love to see what is in the cabinet but I bet I never will.


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[kev313]

hmmm i see its ok for you to express your negative opinion but others cant? im just giving my opinion on these. like i do any other product on this forum. doesnt matter the manufacturer. only in this shindo forum, people take it personally. even when they dont even own the product in question.
its funny you think only the people who dont like shindo are ones who never heard shindo.
very very untrue.
lighten up some will ya , i hate my speakers too, and alot of others that i comment about .
these speaker look like a diy joke to me. sorry.

8353

A diy joke...that's an interesting phrase. DIY perhaps in the sense that Shindo diy'd it probably 30 years ago if not more and refined the design until his death. I suppose beauty is in the eye of the beholder. These are mine, but they are field could not alnico and at a $25,000 premium over the alnico pictured, I suppose I had a wide range of looks to choose from in speakers. I think the Shondo are beautiful. I came from Tannoy prestige series and the Shindo do feel crafted as opposed to the "produced" feel of the Tannoy. Take out of that what you will.

And the sound....please. It's amazing. Like the op, I've got a VR with the GM70. The 604 in my room is like a tailor made speaker in an electronic system designed for it. It's amazing. To me, and to most Shindoists, music reproduction and system building is not an art, it is art. Many do not appreciate this approach. That's ok. There is a dark corner for everyone in this hobby.

One of my favorite pieces on this topic - by Herb R. And actually currently posted at Enjoy the Music - touches on this approach:

"To be successful at building an amp or speakers, I maintain you must PICTURE, in your mind, how you will look and how you will feel playing discs. I mean how it will feel to put the disc on/in the player. I mean how you think you will look in the room lighting, standing in front of the player and between the speakers. I mean try to imagine how you will feel putting on the disc and sitting in the chair, dreaming and carrying on, in the new world you have created. This is your time machine, your sanctuary. This is your religion. You are the wizard, the movie director, the conductor, the mad scientist! When you create your own music system, you create you own new music culture. I really like the feel of playing 78s. It takes me somewhere."

Shindo as a DIY joke. It's a somewhat coarse statement. A sentiment poorly expressed, perhaps. Yes, they look like a wooden box and, yes, probably most people assume that they can build a wooden box. No, they are not made of space age material and, no, they don't come in Lamborghini paint colors. To those who are familiar with and appreciate a Japanese aesthetic and to those who understand the multi decade artisanal approach to the craft employed by Shindo, they are near the pinnacle of what can be achieved in this approach to the hobby.

[kev313]

Instead of getting defensive, why not answer the basic questions I asked? Does Shindo modify the 604 drivers? What sets the Shindo cabinet apart from the cabinet that Altec designed to house the 604 drivers for recording studios to be used as monitors? I'm not attacking the Shindo 604 speakers, just asking some basic questions. Cripes.

I cannot speak to the alnico. On mine Shindo converts the drivers to field coil and builds a custom power supply. There is also a customer crossover. As to the cabinet, bracing, porting and internal stuffing and wiring are unique as they are with anyone who builds their own enclosure. It's like his Garrard plinth. Anyone can build one...he refined his over the course of nearly 4 decades.

Look, really, if you don't like it, but some GPA drivers and stuff em in a home brew box. I've done that too and it ain't half bad. No one needs 30 to 60k speakers, but they sure sound nice.

Here are the standard veneers taken by Matt showing accurate color. 8354

[kev313]

Kevin where are you?


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Don't come around much...for reasons plainly obvious in the thread. I mean, buy the freaking westminsters... They are ok. Maybe not the match with Shindo electronics that Shindo speakers would be but not too shabby. I personally look at this and ask myself whether this speaker was designed and tuned over the course of a career to match my system. 8356

[kev313]

They sound how they look? ;)

I had a chance to listen to Paul's Shindo amp/preamp this past weekend. It's very very pretty sounding and what astonished me was how quiet the backgrounds were (for tube amps). But at the end of the day, I found the Shindo gear rolled off on the top and struggling with complex/dynamic music (example: Mahler). If you listen to female vocals and acoustic guitar and that sort of thing, then they sounded oh so romantically delightful. I now better understand the love for these little green boxes.


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Contrary to prior posts, this phenomenon may be able to be explained by .., specs. This is also why JH is constantly willing to take the heat from know it alls while advocating a system approach.

[Mike]

Don't come around much...for reasons plainly obvious in the thread. I mean, buy the freaking westminsters... They are ok. Maybe not the match with Shindo electronics that Shindo speakers would be but not too shabby. I personally look at this and ask myself whether this speaker was designed and tuned over the course of a career to match my system. 8356

Kev - any shots of the inside of the Shindo speakers?


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[kev313]

Kev - any shots of the inside of the Shindo speakers?


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Not from me, my friend. As you might guess, one of the side benefits of being a Shindo owner is dealing with the Shindo black marketeers who contact you looking for pictures, measurements, cap values etc for reverse engineering purposes. I don't claim to know anything about the experience of other participants here. But if you are familiar with this corner of audio - and by this I mean small volume tube producers who wade the same waters as WE, Altec, etc - you have been to the larger DIY forums where there is a robust international discussion devoted to discussing and copying Shindo circuits and designs.

[Paul]

Kev - any shots of the inside of the Shindo speakers?


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Mike, the pic shown on Kev's post is done by Jeff Day's pic - it only shows as high-frequency crossover—located in the bottom front of the loudspeaker—is to allow the high-frequency information from the music signal to pass through to the high-frequency compression horn driver unit, while filtering out the low-frequency information.

other one is role of the low-frequency crossover—located in the top of the cabinet above the Dual Concentric™ driver—is to allow the low-frequency information from the music signal to pass through to the fifteen-inch direct radiating low frequency driver while filtering out the high frequency information.( again Jeff's pic )

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue70/images/4%20WRSE%20LF%20XO.jpg

Also my Westminster GR is different cross over than Jeff's previous version. here is new one.

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb437/bluemcintosh/IMG_3452ss.jpg

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb437/bluemcintosh/IMG_3451ss.jpg

Yes I also like to see inside of shindo speakers as well.

[briguy]

I can understand why the Shindo sound might not appeal to some. I can also understand the underlying psychological resistance to a single brand system approach. Let's face it, the people attracted to this hobby are mostly of above average intelligence (or think of themselves that way), want something unique to their ears, and like to try different combinations.

A system approach kinda eliminates the thinking and tweaking part of the hobby. That can be hard for some to accept, particularly if they've invested in other stuff and mostly enjoy what they've built. You don't even roll the tubes in a Shindo!

It's not a criticism, just an observation of the type-A personalities (myself included) who are attracted to this hobby. To each his own, right?

For me personally, I don't want to take the time to audition everything under the sun trying to find the one combination that does everything I want it to do. I'm not Don Quixote dreaming the never-ending impossible dream. I'd rather spend my time seeking out good music.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that the Shindo system I'm putting together compromises much. But even if it isn't perfect, I think I can build once and be very happy for a decade or so before I start itching to try some other approach.

Criticism regarding price/value is probably fair, even if one hasn't heard a system like this. Let's face it, HiFi is art and art is subjective. Why is one Picaso more valuable than another? Who cares? It's worth what someone is willing to pay to get it. That said, good luck to anyone trying to re-sell your DIY version of this speaker. ;)

[kev313]

Mike, the pic shown on Kev's post is done by Jeff Day's pic - it only shows as high-frequency crossover—located in the bottom front of the loudspeaker—is to allow the high-frequency information from the music signal to pass through to the high-frequency compression horn driver unit, while filtering out the low-frequency information.

other one is he role of the low-frequency crossover—located in the top of the cabinet above the Dual Concentric[emoji769] driver—is to allow the low-frequency information from the music signal to pass through to the fifteen-inch direct radiating low frequency driver while filtering out the high frequency information.( again Jeff's pic )

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue70/images/4%20WRSE%20LF%20XO.jpg

Also my Westminster GR is different cross over than Jeff's previous version. here is new one.

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb437/bluemcintosh/IMG_3452ss.jpg

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb437/bluemcintosh/IMG_3451ss.jpg

Yes I also like to see inside of shindo speakers as well.

Why do you want to see the inside of a Shindo speaker?

[Mike]

Why do you want to see the inside of a Shindo speaker?

I'm curious as to what makes them different from Altec 604's. For $34,000, its a fair question.

Next time I visit CA, I will definitely give them a listen.


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[Paul]

Why do you want to see the inside of a Shindo speaker?

Never mind.

[Petro85]

Mike, the pic shown on Kev's post is done by Jeff Day's pic - it only shows as high-frequency crossover—located in the bottom front of the loudspeaker—is to allow the high-frequency information from the music signal to pass through to the high-frequency compression horn driver unit, while filtering out the low-frequency information.

other one is role of the low-frequency crossover—located in the top of the cabinet above the Dual Concentric™ driver—is to allow the low-frequency information from the music signal to pass through to the fifteen-inch direct radiating low frequency driver while filtering out the high frequency information.( again Jeff's pic )

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue70/images/4%20WRSE%20LF%20XO.jpg

Also my Westminster GR is different cross over than Jeff's previous version. here is new one.

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb437/bluemcintosh/IMG_3452ss.jpg

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb437/bluemcintosh/IMG_3451ss.jpg

Yes I also like to see inside of shindo speakers as well.
that is very cool Paul, which level do you sleep on? lol. seriously beautiful speakers.
nuff said!!!

[kev313]

Different from which altec 604? In what cabinet? With what type of crossover? The comparison is incomplete. For a pure value question, you could probably buy 604 drivers (maybe 2500 is going ebay rate for early 604), have cabinets built (2500 for similar cabinets), and buy a nice crossover for 1500? Maybe another 1000 to get it out together? I have no idea. I'm making some of these numbers up. So a competent diy version is 1/5 the retail cost. Maybe competent. Ebay drivers, ebay crossover, cabinet of uncertain quality. Or x5 for a unit custom made by a family who has been doing it for decades and tuning it to match my electronics. Or plus 52.5k for the FC version. I'll take the FC version.

[Paul]

that is very cool Paul, which level do you sleep on? lol. seriously beautiful speakers.
nuff said!!!

Thanks Steve. Sorry guys lets get back to original topic.

[puroagave]

I'm curious as to what makes them different from Altec 604's. For $34,000, its a fair question.

Next time I visit CA, I will definitely give them a listen.


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whoa...i didn't realize they were so dear. i've got to make it over to Matt's place when i'm in the area to hear what the fuss is about. I haven't had the pleasure of hearing a full-on 'tone imports' system.

[kev313]

that is very cool Paul, which level do you sleep on? lol. seriously beautiful speakers.
nuff said!!!

"Nuff said"?! NOW you're talking like a true horny! That's what I'm talking bout. Get my Klipsch blood boiling and I'm going back to my Cornwalls!! Ha. Miss those Cornwalls sometimes... A simpler time. A different audio America.

[Mike]

whoa...i didn't realize they were so dear. i've got to make it over to Matt's place when i'm in the area to hear what the fuss is about. I haven't had the pleasure of hearing a full-on 'tone audio' system.

Me too. I'm very curious. Shindo has pleasantly surprised me so far. So, let's see.


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[Petro85]

"Nuff said"?! NOW you're talking like a true horny! That's what I'm talking bout. Get my Klipsch blood boiling and I'm going back to my Cornwalls!! Ha. Miss those Cornwalls sometimes... A simpler time. A different audio America.
i love the klipsch thing. had cornwalls too for a bit. the 3's. i would have loved to upgrade them and get a little more refinement out of the mid and tweeter. but wow could they bring the house down with drums and bass. as good of a speaker for rock and roll as most ive heard. ive often though about the diy cornscalas. what a bargain.
im a woodworker and i can build a box, and a nice one at that. but i know nothing of crossovers and the electronics part.
i like to see the insides of any speaker to learn the different ways to build them.

[NOLG4EVR]

I've wanted to love the O/96's ever since I first heard them....and when I hear them with something like Shelby Lynn Just A Little a Loving, I think "oh man, these sound sweet". Then I put on something complex and blah...

As for Shindo and Devore, John said he uses lots of different amps at home - including SS amps which is what he likes to demo with. I can see the SS amps giving some control and needed dynamic punch to the O/96's.


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Very interesting concept.

Research and design a high efficiency, flat impedance curve box speaker to be displayed and shown with SS amps to really take control and showcase the dynamic punch of the design.

A niche market audience for sure.

[kev313]

John would be surprised to hear that. He voiced the 0/96's with Shindo.

We all have our opinions I guess.


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I agree. Interesting opinion. Many people have heard the o96 Shindo combo (disclaimer: I'm not familiar with the speakers) and this is the first I've heard that the combo - or as mike put it, the speakers and the gear both individually and together - struggles with complex music. Both brands are fairly well known for their handling of dynamics and the textural complexity of music. This has been well documented by professional reviewers especially as it comes to Devores which have been reviewed quite a bit.

Trying to bring accuracy to a subjective process is so difficult. Comparing this type of gear to systems with solid state amps will obviously result in vastly different experiences from which to draw your opinion. Struggles. Preferences. Accuracy. Specs. Recommendations. Bias. Backstory. Intrigue. Anger. Ego.

Tomato. Tomahto.

[Mike]

I believe this is John's listening room. Lots of different amps I see on the rack. Probably some pretty cool vintage ones too.

http://audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=8364&d=1413895939




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[kev313]

True. Lots of info on the Monkeyhaus out there. This pic of John's rack comes from Stereophile. 8367

[mep]

I suppose beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Don't "suppose" because it always is. Anyone who thinks the Shindo 604 speakers are beautiful might be married to a Russian wrestler and mistake her for a beauty queen. As the old saying goes, appearances can be deceiving and maybe there is much more beauty hidden under the surface than what we (meaning those that don't find these speakers to be outwardly physically attractive and rather look like something that came from a high school wood shop class from the 1960s ) can see.


To me, and to most Shindoists, music reproduction and system building is not an art, it is art.

Now we are starting to sound like a religion. "What faith do you belong to?" "Oh, I'm a Shindoist." :D


One of my favorite pieces on this topic - by Herb R. And actually currently posted at Enjoy the Music - touches on this approach:

"To be successful at building an amp or speakers, I maintain you must PICTURE, in your mind, how you will look and how you will feel playing discs. I mean how it will feel to put the disc on/in the player. I mean how you think you will look in the room lighting, standing in front of the player and between the speakers. I mean try to imagine how you will feel putting on the disc and sitting in the chair, dreaming and carrying on, in the new world you have created. This is your time machine, your sanctuary. This is your religion. You are the wizard, the movie director, the conductor, the mad scientist! When you create your own music system, you create you own new music culture. I really like the feel of playing 78s. It takes me somewhere."

Man, this sounds just like something Harvey Rosenberg would have said! Where are my grunty diapers?

The bottom line here is that the Shindo speakers don't have to please anyone but their owners. Whether they cost $300 or $30,000, as long as the person who shelled out the money is happy with them and feels they received good value for their money, everyone else can go pound sand. What I was interested in was how they were different than the original 604s installed in Altec 604 studio monitor boxes and did they sound better. I'm not sure if anyone has heard both versions.

[kev313]

Don't "suppose" because it always is. Anyone who thinks the Shindo 604 speakers are beautiful might be married to a Russian wrestler and mistake her for a beauty queen. As the old saying goes, appearances can be deceiving and maybe there is much more beauty hidden under the surface than what we (meaning those that don't find these speakers to be outwardly physically attractive and rather look like something that came from a high school wood shop class from the 1960s ) can see.



Now we are starting to sound like a religion. "What faith do you belong to?" "Oh, I'm a Shindoist." :D



Man, this sounds just like something Harvey Rosenberg would have said! Where are my grunty diapers?

The bottom line here is that the Shindo speakers don't have to please anyone but their owners. Whether they cost $300 or $30,000, as long as the person who shelled out the money is happy with them and feels they received good value for their money, everyone else can go pound sand. What I was interested in was how they were different than the original 604s installed in Altec 604 studio monitor boxes and did they sound better. I'm not sure if anyone has heard both versions.

Actually, my bottom line is that Shindo owners don't have to please anyone else, but why quibble about details. To your last point, I have obviously heard my speakers (604 field coil), I have owned original 604 in various enclosures, but I have never listened to the Shindo 604 Alnico, so I cannot comment on the comparison.

As Matt can attest, I was reluctant to go with the 604 based on my prior 604 diy experience and was leaning heavily towards the A23 Cinema Hommage. In the end, I went all in in the 604 and got a speaker that exceeded my expectations. So as to that comparison, I can represent that in my experience the field coil modification, supply, crossover etc make the speaker quite a bit different than a standard 604. Again, in your comparison, what 604 are you discussing? There are many many variations from original Altecs through current GPA models. All are quite different. What type of crossover? Original? DIY design? Which parts? These questions matter.

As to the remainder of your points, is it a faith? Not quite, but it is a different way of thinking. I don't roll shiny boxes. I don't seek out more precision, accuracy, soundstage depth, height, width, bass. I don't chase the current flavor - D'Agostino, Job. I don't worry about the latest revision or model from Arc or Wilson. Nothing. I've found a house brand that suits me. I enjoy the Shindo sonics. Does that mean I will stay static? Probably not. I can move around within Shindo and enjoy the different flavors without worrying about chasing some sonic goal as I'm certain that the basic brand strengths and presentation will remain the same. I enjoy every Shindo piece that I have as an artistic expression by Shindo in an of itself and, in some respects, independent from the sound it produces. I enjoy the process of building a system from these components.

Is that different that fretting about whether my old ARC amp can be upgraded to v2 to accept new tubes for greater !BASS SLAM!?

Yes it is. This is not a controversial approach in many circles, but it has a history of very vocal opposition in American audio forums.

Part of this, I suspect, was accurately pointed out by a poster above: most people who can afford this hobby don't like to be told that they are wrong and should "submit" to a system approach. Either that or they claim to enjoy the process of flipping gear and swinging from extreme to extreme on the sonic spectrum, never finding a home. Could be. I enjoyed that for a time. Not so much anymore.

One final point...the bit about the speakers looking like something from a high school wood shop class in the 1960s. That's a pretty insulting thing to say on what everyone loves to represent as the forum that was specially designed to be friendlier than the self proclaimed friendliest audio forum. The fact of the matter is, yes, Shindo speakers do look like wooden boxes and, yes, many have spent over 60,000 to buy them. Obviously I could've had my pick of Wilson or Magico shiny modern speakers in this price range. I happen to find them quite beautiful, but my taste runs, I suppose to the mid century modern over the...well...whatever you would call Wilson. In any event, it bears pointing out that this design works well in many living environments, not unlike the older speaker designs that have inspired Shindo. In contrast, a room full of shiny Burmester components in a rack between many 60k modern speakers looks quite garish by comparison. To my eyes anyway.

Hey, I suppose the Shindo approach inspires these types of witty criticism. That certainly was true in the last forum and it looks like nothing will change here. I would suggest that that ego of the posters is involved, but if I hold up the mirror I am no different. I think my approach is better than yours. Well, better than non-Shindoists, anyway.

[briguy]

As with pretty much all wood enclosures, they look WAY better in person. I'll admit, when I first saw these particular Shindo 604's I thought they looked a bit plain. But once I got them in natural light, I understood their understate beauty. And in a dimly lit room with some flickering candlelight (the way I most enjoy listening to music), the beauty is mesmerizing.

[Petro85]

kev i agree with some of your points and can somewhat see where you are coming from. especially the point of ,"this is what you like and thats all that matters". which is 100% true. anything you want to pay your hard earned cash for is up to you. no matter what you think this is a friendly forum. but also an honest forum. right upto the top boss on the forum who will buy $75k speakers, then tell us basically they suck. and sell them. its not a personal attack on you or your choices, its just that some dont agree with them. its like that for every piece of gear on this forum. and this place is not driven by advertising dollars or what the admin wants to sell. this place is about honest assessment of stereo gear .
now if you think shindo is in this business to make the world happy they are not, they are in this for the same reason everyone else is, to vent people with good size bank accounts of their money. period. its nothing against shindo or any other company, but they are just better at it than most because they have the "system approach" which keeps you coming back for more. bottom line its not what rack or cables is best with shindo gear, its what the importer imports. or distributor distributes. and it goes right back to the almighty dollar above all else.
with that said, i know people who went the shindo "system" route an love it, and i know people who did and couldnt sell it off fast enough. its a matter of taste and no one is right or wrong, but we do like to discuss it. and if some criticisms are harsh than so be it, gotta have thick skin to be on the internet.
every piece of gear i have has been criticized at one point or another . im ok with it, im not rich and i dont spend as much as most, and ive made alot of stupid purchases in the past . and im hating my speakers right now. but at the end of the day i can sit down and still enjoy a great album and thats all that really matters.
good luck to you

[kev313]

kev i agree with some of your points and can somewhat see where you are coming from. especially the point of ,"this is what you like and thats all that matters". which is 100% true. anything you want to pay your hard earned cash for is up to you. no matter what you think this is a friendly forum. but also an honest forum. right upto the top boss on the forum who will buy $75k speakers, then tell us basically they suck. and sell them. its not a personal attack on you or your choices, its just that some dont agree with them. its like that for every piece of gear on this forum. and this place is not driven by advertising dollars or what the admin wants to sell. this place is about honest assessment of stereo gear .
now if you think shindo is in this business to make the world happy they are not, they are in this for the same reason everyone else is, to vent people with good size bank accounts of their money. period. its nothing against shindo or any other company, but they are just better at it than most because they have the "system approach" which keeps you coming back for more. bottom line its not what rack or cables is best with shindo gear, its what the importer imports. or distributor distributes. and it goes right back to the almighty dollar above all else.
with that said, i know people who went the shindo "system" route an love it, and i know people who did and couldnt sell it off fast enough. its a matter of taste and no one is right or wrong, but we do like to discuss it. and if some criticisms are harsh than so be it, gotta have thick skin to be on the internet.
every piece of gear i have has been criticized at one point or another . im ok with it, im not rich and i dont spend as much as most, and ive made alot of stupid purchases in the past . and im hating my speakers right now. but at the end of the day i can sit down and still enjoy a great album and thats all that really matters.
good luck to you

While I find it hard to disagree with the sentiment of your post, I'd have to say it's a pretty sad commentary as applied to the instant matter. Trust me, I'm not a sensitive guy...I argue with people as a career choice. That said, I find some of the specific criticisms as to the appearance a bit low brow and as to the comments as to performance totally uniformed. Which is fine. That's what questions are for. However, when these questions are asked from the point of view that the working assumption is that Shindo is a poor value proposition, especially where the one asking the question is not providing enough information for an informed comparison with "original" Altecs.

Which is another way of me saying, it's hard for me to know whether those asking the questions are just ragging on the product or whether they have a working knowledge of Altec which provides a foundation for their question.

Which brings me to my main point(s). It's all in how you ask. I don't think anyone here is really that unsophisticated. So when you ask a question with an obvious tone, with an obvious bias, I assume it was not accidental. Criticism is one thing. Informed criticism is even better. Some of the questions and points raised here, don't quite fit with the "friendly forum" flag.

Just my opinion. And criticism.

[MDP]

Keep it civil boys !

[mep]

I for one think I'm keeping it quite civil. I have never stated that I don't think the Shindo 604 speakers can sound good as I obviously have no idea. I thought the question I asked with regards to how does the Shindo application of the 604 differ from how Altec implemented the 604 in their cabinet to be quite valid and i think Mike agreed. If Shindo has converted the 604 to a field coil speaker, that is a huge difference.

I didn't think this forum was all about just patting each other on the back and congratulating each other on every purchase we make and then saying "GLWS" as it moves on down the road a few weeks or months later. If someone is paying $30k+ for a pair of 604 speakers mounted in a plain looking box, I think it's only normal to wonder what is going on with how Shindo has implemented changes from the original design which can be had for under $4k including Altec enclosures.

[kev313]

To be clear, the speakers that are the subject of the post are not FC conversions. My Shindo speakers are 604 FC conversions.

Again, I don't disagree that the question is valid. I do take issue with the way some have presented the issue. Constructive discussion is more likely to be had where all parties remain respectful. Starting the discussion by referring the speakers as diy nightmares, or however it was worded, sets a nasty tone.

[mep]

To be clear, the speakers that are the subject of the post are not FC conversions. My Shindo speakers are 604 FC conversions.

Again, I don't disagree that the question is valid. I do take issue with the way some have presented the issue. Constructive discussion is more likely to be had where all parties remain respectful. Starting the discussion by referring the speakers as diy nightmares, or however it was worded, sets a nasty tone.

That wasn't me.

[briguy]

I for one think I'm keeping it quite civil. I have never stated that I don't think the Shindo 604 speakers can sound good as I obviously have no idea. I thought the question I asked with regards to how does the Shindo application of the 604 differ from how Altec implemented the 604 in their cabinet to be quite valid and i think Mike agreed. If Shindo has converted the 604 to a field coil speaker, that is a huge difference.

I didn't think this forum was all about just patting each other on the back and congratulating each other on every purchase we make and then saying "GLWS" as it moves on down the road a few weeks or months later. If someone is paying $30k+ for a pair of 604 speakers mounted in a plain looking box, I think it's only normal to wonder what is going on with how Shindo has implemented changes from the original design which can be had for under $4k including Altec enclosures.
As the original poster, I don't mind any of this. I'm fluent in Internet Snark and understand how to read between the nuanced lines. ;)

These particular speakers do look "plain" at first. That was also my initial thought. But natural wood is beautiful to me and the finish on these really shines in person. Photos just don't do them justice.

Are they as nice as the standard DeVore finish or the Rosewood finish of the Latour's? No. But they are gonna look HOT in the room I'm putting them in. :)

[KeithR]

Paul- i realize you're a tube guy, but have you considered FirstWatt amplification? Nelson uses Tannoy in their design.

[briguy]

So, did anyone ever step forward who owns, has owned or knows someone who owns Shindo's standard 604's (the owns I'm planning to get)?

I'd love to talk to someone who has lived with these speakers and run them through the paces. :)

[kev313]

My advice would be to ask Matt. He could probably hook you up with owners who could relay their experiences. Speaking from only my experiences, I don't know any other owners of the 604, save for myself and the person pictured on Matt's site and ours are both field coil.

If you go to audio asylum you can find a member who had Shindo build custom cabinets for his GPA 604, which are alnico obviously. It is my understanding that he later had Shindo convert the speakers to a full Shindo setup. Perhaps you can message him through AA.

[briguy]

Will do. Curious... are you using any wood under your speakers?

Matt recommended I put the speakers on wood (baltic birch plywood) to improve the bass since my floor is made of terracotta tiles. Wondering if you've experimented with any other woods and if you found that others were better in certain ways.

[Cucumber_jones]

Briguy if Matt suggested baltic birch plywood why would you second guess him.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/10/26/ef0f4873d67cd73d444f3eb465df5d4c.jpg




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[briguy]

Well, he didn't say "baltic birch and only baltic birch will do" and I'm not a lemming. ;)

Kev seems like the kind of guy who might have tried everything, too.

[kev313]

Well, he didn't say "baltic birch and only baltic birch will do" and I'm not a lemming. ;)

Kev seems like the kind of guy who might have tried everything, too.

Actually, I'm using nothing but my bamboo flooring. I did try Baltic birch ply, random stacked 2x4 and maple blocks from maple shade (finished and unfinished, if it matters). Not much of a difference. In theory, depending on your floor, it should make a difference given the speaker has ports on the bottom. Matt mustve thought your floors are probably too hard or reflective of a surface.

[briguy]

Definitely reflective. The room, in general, is going to take some work to tame. Lots of big windows, but I'm confident we'll get it sounding great.

[Bongo]

Just ordered Alnico 604's in full size Latour cabinets! Briguy's input via PM was helpful- the final push as it were.

[briguy]

Just ordered Alnico 604's in full size Latour cabinets! Briguy's input via PM was helpful- the final push as it were.
Nice! Which wood finish did you choose?

[Bongo]

Stock- the darker, walnut looking finish.

12221

[briguy]

Nice!!!

[KeithR]

what do those retail for Bongo-? i've only heard the full Latour. congrats on finding a speaker :)

[Loop4fun]

Stock- the darker, walnut looking finish.

12221

Pau Ferro

Nice!

[Bongo]

what do those retail for Bongo-? i've only heard the full Latour. congrats on finding a speaker :)

Thanks KeithR! I'm giddy like a little girl before her first dance.

They were $34k.

[Jerome W]

Briguy if Matt suggested baltic birch plywood why would you second guess him.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/10/26/ef0f4873d67cd73d444f3eb465df5d4c.jpg




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Now this is a real plywood stand for a Shindo component ! :
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/19/6cc446a603067462ea3ef3b9f539f4a0.jpg

[Bongo]

Pau Ferro

Nice!

That's it! Thanks.

[Jerome W]

ok i gotta ask. are these the speakers or the crate that the real $34k speakers come inside?? cause they look like diy with wood dowels for legs to me. must be something real special inside!! :hey: they might sound incredible as i never heard them but boy are they as basic looking as it comes. sorry if anyone feels insulted but i had to say it. been bugging me all day. tannoy dc10a's are 1/2 that price and also use alnico driver and are gorgeous. im just sayin.lol.

I tend to agree that 34k for such speakers seems a bit unsane.
I am not questionning the overall quality of the speakers and their sound. They must sound fabulous. But the price does not seem very logical to me.
Wilson / Magico and so on are extremely expensive to build. Owners can understand easily why.
But standard wood cases with Altec vintage drivers ???
Look at this thread :
http://ls3-5a-forum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=12508
This guy is not alone in France.
There are many talented people able to reproduce any old design.
The price to pay for such a pair of speakers is around 6k euros !
And they sound just uncredible.
Of course, they are not in the standard circuit of importator / distributor / dealer....

[Bongo]

I tend to agree that 34k for such speakers seems a bit unsane.
I am not questionning the overall quality of the speakers and their sound. They must sound fabulous. But the price does not seem very logical to me.
Wilson / Magico and so on are extremely expensive to build. Owners can understand easily why.
But standard wood cases with Altec vintage drivers ???
Look at this thread :
ALTEC 820 A ? LS3/5a le forum (http://ls3-5a-forum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=12508)
This guy is not alone in France.
There are many talented people able to reproduce any old design.
The price to pay for such a pair of speakers is around 6k euros !
And they sound just uncredible.
Of course, they are not in the standard circuit of importator / distributor / dealer....

It is a good question Jerome. I hope that the speakers are worth it. The guys with the much more expensive field coil speakers seem very satisfied.

I'm sure that many audiophiles have paid large sums for audio components, the relative value of which were suspect to others, especially their friends and family! I bet that some of those individuals also regretted their purchases and moved on to other equipment, perhaps repeatedly. I doubt that spinning their wheels was their goal, but that it was costly and frustrating, none the less. It is challenging to navigate one's way through the hyperbole and subjectivism and expense of audio gear. Am I paying too much for percieved peace of mind? Not sure yet. But my goal is to acquire a system that I can enjoy for a long time, not to assemble an expensive and impressive extension of my ego (perhaps psychologically unavoidable).

I also don't want to invest even $5000 in building speakers. I have a DIY slate Lenco turntable (in the Oswalds Mill style). The ingredients: my drawing of a plinth, an autocad done by an architect friend, a slab of Pennsylivania blue slate, a local shop to water jet cut the plinth, a PTP5 mounting plate, and a Schick tonearm. Now I have a great sounding turntable. But speakers are another thing, and I expect much more difficult to build successfully, given the specifications of Shindo amps. Believe me, I considered it. Long live Troels Gravesens!

http://audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12250&stc=1

I just wanted things to sound good and to work. In New Mexico, the land of adobe, viga ceilings, brick floors, and plaster walls, the understated Japanese aesthetic looks fantastic. I doubt that I'll dislike my system, since the components are designed to work together. Only time will tell.

[Jerome W]

It is a good question Jerome. I hope that the speakers are worth it. The guys with the much more expensive field coil speakers seem very satisfied.

I'm sure that many audiophiles have paid large sums for audio components, the relative value of which were suspect to others, especially their friends and family! I bet that some of those individuals also regretted their purchases and moved on to other equipment, perhaps repeatedly. I doubt that spinning their wheels was their goal, but that it was costly and frustrating, none the less. It is challenging to navigate one's way through the hyperbole and subjectivism and expense of audio gear. Am I paying too much for percieved peace of mind? Not sure yet. But my goal is to acquire a system that I can enjoy for a long time, not to assemble an expensive and impressive extension of my ego (perhaps psychologically unavoidable).

I also don't want to invest even $5000 in building speakers. I have a DIY slate Lenco turntable (in the Oswalds Mill style). The ingredients: my drawing of a plinth, an autocad done by an architect friend, a slab of Pennsylivania blue slate, a local shop to water jet cut the plinth, a PTP5 mounting plate, and a Schick tonearm. Now I have a great sounding turntable. But speakers are another thing, and I expect much more difficult to build successfully, given the specifications of Shindo amps. Believe me, I considered it. Long live Troels Gravesens!

http://audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12250&stc=1

I just wanted things to sound good and to work. In New Mexico, the land of adobe, viga ceilings, brick floors, and plaster walls, the understated Japanese aesthetic looks fantastic. I doubt that I'll dislike my system, since the components are designed to work together. Only time will tell.

Excellent post.
I just wanted to add that I understand the high price tag of field coil speakers.
For standard magnets ones, I have serious doubts.

[Bongo]

Excellent post.
I just wanted to add that I understand the high price tag of field coil speakers.
For standard magnets ones, I have serious doubts.


Thanks Jerome. I do feel a bit kooky for getting the 604's. I supposed that any audio purchase might be difficult to justify, when reality settles in.

But in the kooky context of un-reality, keep in mind that there is a $20k price premium for the field coil speakers! That could buy a good hifi system. Even the Shindo field coil owners are very supportive of the Alnico proposition. The decision to purchase field coils can boil down to getting a good second hand deal or simply having the money to pay for the ultimate in sound quality. It is fortunate for the owners in either case, but alas, neither applies to me.

[Schmitt]

The price tag on Shindo field coil speakers has very little to do with the price for their production. People who refer to other amateurs who are able to produce excellent replicas of famous speakers just dont get the point right.

In this chain of producer/importer/distributor/dealer the price for any given product has to be determined only to a maximum limit the market (the customer) is willing to pay for. Its the same with cars, watches or any other luxury products, the value behind the market price is negligible. So whether this speaker will be priced 20K or 40K is only a question what people are willing to pay for the luxury name of Shindo Labs and how well this brand is established in the marked in relation to other brands as a luxury product name.
So whatever Shindo has to pay for the second hand Altecs, their modification to field coils and the cabinet, it all boils down to a price tag that will be set by the importer after doing market researches and marketing in combination with the local dealers.

[kev313]

The price tag on Shindo field coil speakers has very little to do with the price for their production. People who refer to other amateurs who are able to produce excellent replicas of famous speakers just dont get the point right.

In this chain of producer/importer/distributor/dealer the price for any given product has to be determined only to a maximum limit the market (the customer) is willing to pay for. Its the same with cars, watches or any other luxury products, the value behind the market price is negligible. So whether this speaker will be priced 20K or 40K is only a question what people are willing to pay for the luxury name of Shindo Labs and how well this brand is established in the marked in relation to other brands as a luxury product name.
So whatever Shindo has to pay for the second hand Altecs, their modification to field coils and the cabinet, it all boils down to a price tag that will be set by the importer after doing market researches and marketing in combination with the local dealers.

yep...But that's pretty much how everything works. It seems especially bad in audio right now where high prices (extremely high) seem to dominate. On the other hand, the sound for dollar value equation is pretty much up to the buyer and, in my experience, much of the $$$ gear leaves me cold. At least with Shindo I get the sound I want in the manner in which the maker intended. Jerome derisively refers to the importer and dealers in a manner which surely suggests some evil intent to price gouge. I, on the other hand, cast my vote the other way and found the fee for the product and their service to be reasonable.

If one views the speakers as a simple box with an old driver and a solid state power supply and nothing more, then, yes, 65k is an insane price to pay. If one views it as a piece of artistic expression as a component of a Shindo system, and, of course, the sound suits your taste, then it may be for you.

There are other avenues, so keep an open mind. That said, at the end of the day the men and women behind Shindo are the best ambassadors of the brand if you are looking to optimize the gear and their advice is a professional service for which conpensation is warranted. I think a few have tried hard to prove they were smarter and learned the Harbeth way that they did not have all the answers.

Hard way. I meant hard way.

[NeilNZ]

I may have laughed out loud.
:congrats:

[Jerome W]

yep...But that's pretty much how everything works. It seems especially bad in audio right now where high prices (extremely high) seem to dominate. On the other hand, the sound for dollar value equation is pretty much up to the buyer and, in my experience, much of the $$$ gear leaves me cold. At least with Shindo I get the sound I want in the manner in which the maker intended. Jerome derisively refers to the importer and dealers in a manner which surely suggests some evil intent to price gouge. I, on the other hand, cast my vote the other way and found the fee for the product and their service to be reasonable.

If one views the speakers as a simple box with an old driver and a solid state power supply and nothing more, then, yes, 65k is an insane price to pay. If one views it as a piece of artistic expression as a component of a Shindo system, and, of course, the sound suits your taste, then it may be for you.

There are other avenues, so keep an open mind. That said, at the end of the day the men and women behind Shindo are the best ambassadors of the brand if you are looking to optimize the gear and their advice is a professional service for which conpensation is warranted. I think a few have tried hard to prove they were smarter and learned the Harbeth way that they did not have all the answers.

Hard way. I meant hard way.

Kev,

I am not pointing any responsability of importers / dealers in the very high price tag of Shindo speakers.
I am just saying that their price is not related logically to costs of production like for speakers as Wilson, Magico, Verity and so on.
Now the most important thing for a buyer is to be happy. The price paid is then forgotten.
I am happy the "hard way" with my set up ;) !
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/09/4e114ac9075a1219586e0a6cc566e5f7.jpg

[Smile]

A 30 yo design that looks like a $600 DIY speaker with limited resale value: it takes a lot of confidence to write that check!

*Now reading other posts in this thread, I see I am piling on. Still, you believe in your ears to go this route against the formidable and more mainstream offerings.

[kev313]

A 30 yo design that looks like a $600 DIY speaker with limited resale value: it takes a lot of confidence to write that check!

*Now reading other posts in this thread, I see I am piling on. Still, you believe in your ears to go this route against the formidable and more mainstream offerings.

I recognize that there are many paths to audio happiness but contained within this post is possibly the basis for compulsive need to roll gear. First of all, apprearance is in the eye of the beholder and I find the Shindo to be beautiful as they fit into my mid century home quite nicely. Wilson not so much. That said, it is totally unrelated to performance. Buying into this mentality allows companies to put a premium on flashy looking boxes. Appearance as performance? Perhaps in the case of speakers. Magico and Wilson, for example, certainly suggest that form follows function. At that point, though, we are comparing sound to sound, which is a bit easier. In the case of Magico and Shindo, it is very easy for me as I have owned speakers from both.

As to the point about it being 30 year old technology, it is a bit older than that. So what? If we are comparing sound, sound is what counts. Not age. Altec probably had 1000 engineers plugging away at those speakers for more time than Alon Wolf has had been building gear. Yes, technology improves, but does that necessarily equate to an improvement in sound *in a way which is personally meaningful and significant to the listener*? If you answer "yes," congratulations. You know what approach works for you. But assuming the answer is yes is the entry point to a lifetime of Audiogon ads.

I prefer the sound of a Shindo system to that of Magico. This does not mean that I need Shindo speakers. I could buy old Altec, for example. But to hear the system at its optimized best, I got Shindo speakers. The value proposition was quite easy. I don't really consider resale value as I do not approach the purchase of gear with an eye towards its sale. I realize that others differ. If I did, history tells me that the used market for Shindo is quite healthy with fans of this approach all over the world.

A final word on value, and without going into that much detail, my thoughts are somewhat aligned with those expressed by Jules C. in his original Shindo reviews on 6moons. When I purchased a Krell component, for example, I felt as if I purchased a piece of fancy consumer electronics. That is not a dig; I simply feel like I purchased a piece of gear. A nice one. When I purchase Shindo, I feel a bit different. If you approach system building as an art in and of itself, Shindo can be for you. This is highly subjective, highly personal and, I recognize, Myles and miles away from the typical US approach to hifi.

[Smile]

As to age, I believe, in many instances modern knowledge can lead to better outcomes at lower costs. To ignore that, and arrive at a different conclusion is bold.
Clearly, we all get emotional gratification beyond the sonic ones from our hobby. I am only saying your path is at the outer edge of an already niche hobby... and I enjoy reading your comments, for my expanded understanding. Thanks.

[Jerome W]

I recognize that there are many paths to audio happiness but contained within this post is possibly the basis for compulsive need to roll gear. First of all, apprearance is in the eye of the beholder and I find the Shindo to be beautiful as they fit into my mid century home quite nicely. Wilson not so much. That said, it is totally unrelated to performance. Buying into this mentality allows companies to put a premium on flashy looking boxes. Appearance as performance? Perhaps in the case of speakers. Magico and Wilson, for example, certainly suggest that form follows function. At that point, though, we are comparing sound to sound, which is a bit easier. In the case of Magico and Shindo, it is very easy for me as I have owned speakers from both.

As to the point about it being 30 year old technology, it is a bit older than that. So what? If we are comparing sound, sound is what counts. Not age. Altec probably had 1000 engineers plugging away at those speakers for more time than Alon Wolf has had been building gear. Yes, technology improves, but does that necessarily equate to an improvement in sound *in a way which is personally meaningful and significant to the listener*? If you answer "yes," congratulations. You know what approach works for you. But assuming the answer is yes is the entry point to a lifetime of Audiogon ads.

I prefer the sound of a Shindo system to that of Magico. This does not mean that I need Shindo speakers. I could buy old Altec, for example. But to hear the system at its optimized best, I got Shindo speakers. The value proposition was quite easy. I don't really consider resale value as I do not approach the purchase of gear with an eye towards its sale. I realize that others differ. If I did, history tells me that the used market for Shindo is quite healthy with fans of this approach all over the world.

A final word on value, and without going into that much detail, my thoughts are somewhat aligned with those expressed by Jules C. in his original Shindo reviews on 6moons. When I purchased a Krell component, for example, I felt as if I purchased a piece of fancy consumer electronics. That is not a dig; I simply feel like I purchased a piece of gear. A nice one. When I purchase Shindo, I feel a bit different. If you approach system building as an art in and of itself, Shindo can be for you. This is highly subjective, highly personal and, I recognize, Myles and miles away from the typical US approach to hifi.

There is no relation between price and sound satisfaction. To many, a VOT or a JBL 4312 sounds better than Wilson Alexias.
To me, the Harbeth 40.1 sounds also better.
But at least, the price tags of both speakers are justified by the technology involved.
The price tag of Shindo speakers is not.
Wood boxes and Altec drivers. Nothing very "sophisticated " there.

[kev313]

There is no relation between price and sound satisfaction. To many, a VOT or a JBL 4312 sounds better than Wilson Alexias.
To me, the Harbeth 40.1 sounds also better.
But at least, the price tags of both speakers are justified by the technology involved.
The price tag of Shindo speakers is not.
Wood boxes and Altec drivers. Nothing very "sophisticated " there.

There is a lot to unpack in the statement, but how is that not the same as a Harbeth? Or even a Magico in some sense. I'm not arguing that the Magico isn't more "high tech" (although many Magico speakers were "wood and drivers."). Magico sends some aluminum to the CNC. Shindo has to hand build speakers. There are limited "hands" at Shindo and those hands could otherwise be building electronics. Everything has a cost.

At the end of the day, it's not for you Jerome. That's ok. You found a sound you enjoy. But you get really worked up about Shindo - prices, distribution, recommended associated components, materials. Honestly - forums have blown up over this (rest in peace AA Shindo forum).




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Schmitt]

In most high end sound systems a rule could be applied:

Knowledge can not be fully compensated by money (even if its a lot of money). But money can often be fully compensated by knowledge. So thats what people should strive after. The more knowledge, the better as it can replaces money to a great degree.

A combination of powerful money and knowledge is unbeatable but crazy spend insane amounts of money without knowledge will often results in poor listening as people who know nothing must believe anything.

[Mike]

If the Shindo guys ever start talking about digital jitter, clocks and regenerators, I know I'll need a steady supply of Advil.

[Bongo]

I think that this discussion is very interesting and pertinent. The intersect of money and hobbies or soulful pursuits can be challenging to negotiate and raise important issues that are meaningful to consider.

To be honest, my Shindo speaker post-purchase feelings range from satisfaction and joy at finally allowing myself to get speakers that suit my system to guilt. That is a different issue, a subjective and personal one, versus a discussion of speakers' objective value. For the moment, I'm ignoring the value chain for audio products - distributors, dealers, etc.


I suppose that the dichotomy between personal and objective value is similar to and partially based-on the dichotomy between subjective impressions and objective measurements of audio equipment. I presume it's an ongoing debate precisely because it seems very difficult to develop measures for subjective auditory and psychological experiences. How do we align the two? I surely don't know, but I'm dubious of over-reliance on objective measures of what are, ultimately, subjective human experiences. I don’t mean to negate the value of measures at all, but they are designed to serve our enjoyment of music. In other words, our enjoyment isn't defined by or dependent on objective measures.

It occurs to me that the same applies to the relative worth of audio equipment. Some comments here indicate a belief in a linear relationship between the price of a component and costly production processes or perceived advances in technology and materials. However, it seems that most people agree that a product resulting from those things does not necessarily equal fantastic sounding gear.


It seems that the best gear results from innovation, which operates in the service of values and goals.


I'm reminded of a great Netflix series call Chef's Table, that focuses on some of the worlds greatest chefs and their restaurants. It shows the remarkable dedication and innovation that led to these chef's being recognized for food that people connect with deeply in their senses, their mind, and even their soul. It's almost impossible not to view their cooking is an embodiment of their souls, which is an amazing thing. They are somehow able to create amazing integrity among their beliefs, their tastes, their intellects, the quality of the ingredients, the presentation of dishes, etc. It's astounding how much work and thought and pain and joy goes into it all. It's about humanity, dedication, skill, self-expression, and a profound effort to create something that will bring pleasure to others. By the way, none of these restaurants are cheap...


Shindo fans recognize that Ken Shindo was a true innovator. His creative and production process created products that give great pleasure and somehow cause owners to become emotionally attached to the equipment. This, I like to think, is because Shindo integrated his values and humanity into his work. His work is a manifestation of his soul and our connection to the gear is a connection with the man himself and what he represented. I think that’s what kev313 means when he calls his work art.


Shindo gear aligns with my values and goals, which are kind of difficult to describe here. It involves beauty, humanity, pleasure, connectedness, sincerity, excitement, creativity, humility. Sure it’s intangible, but it’s not mumbo jumbo. It’s just difficult to objectify and to assign monetary value to. Still, I feel good about my investment. That’s not to say I’m totally comfortable with the cost. It would sure suck for it to get even more expensive, especially just to benefit distributors or dealers. I don’t need Shindo gear to have soulful experiences. But I may never sell my gear. My values don’t really change, and why “roll” equipment if it doesn’t align with my values?

[Schmitt]

Eletronic engineering is not art in itself as it is reproducable. Real art is a unique event or work which may be reproduced but not in its full quality.
Maybe the choice of components or working conditions of parts and circuit could be artistical from a point of personal tonal fondness and does not correspond to a normal engineering process (but even that way of creating has and is been done by dozens of other companies) in the case of Shindo Labs, so it is still clearly reproducable for production purposes.

And thats exactly what is done there, may it be in small numbers or larger quantity. It is a product that easily could be reproduced and duplicated for production. So at the end those Shindo products are still industrial products maybe created with a personal choice of sound by the Shindo guys. It could be duplicated by everyone who owns the parts and production process knowledge.

Thats one reason customers wouldnt receive any more information about the gear in terms of schematics or building and production facts. Its this knowledge that makes the products worthy and in combination with a clever marketing and a little bit audio guru wisdom and stories people are willing to pay the price. It has nothing to do with the real value of the product. But exactly thats what some customers want to know: is there a proven and accepted proportion between the production costs and the market value and price.

As this couldnt be the case with a modded old Altec speaker in a simple wood enclosure for a price of a Mercedes Benz 300E people need to use its emotional value alternatively and believe in the words who praises them as a unique master product and a work of art.

[kev313]

Eletronic engineering is not art in itself as it is reproducable. Real art is a unique event or work which may be reproduced but not in its full quality.
Maybe the choice of components or working conditions of parts and circuit could be artistical from a point of personal tonal fondness and does not correspond to a normal engineering process (but even that way of creating has and is been done by dozens of other companies) in the case of Shindo Labs, so it is still clearly reproducable for production purposes.

And thats exactly what is done there, may it be in small numbers or larger quantity. It is a product that easily could be reproduced and duplicated for production. So at the end those Shindo products are still industrial products maybe created with a personal choice of sound by the Shindo guys. It could be duplicated by everyone who owns the parts and production process knowledge.

Thats one reason customers wouldnt receive any more information about the gear in terms of schematics or building and production facts. Its this knowledge that makes the products worthy and in combination with a clever marketing and a little bit audio guru wisdom and stories people are willing to pay the price. It has nothing to do with the real value of the product. But exactly thats what some customers want to know: is there a proven and accepted proportion between the production costs and the market value and price.

As this couldnt be the case with a modded old Altec speaker in a simple wood enclosure for a price of a Mercedes Benz 300E people need to use its emotional value alternatively and believe in the words who praises them as a unique master product and a work of art.

Not an unreasonable position I suppose. Yet I wonder why the source has devoted so much time to the subject. Where lies the truth between marketing, claims of a guru and a cult, and an actual talent. Industrial art, visual art, functional art, what is the difference?

"It could be duplicated by everyone who owns the parts and production process knowledge." A statement that could be applied to anything from the baking of a cake to the creation of heaven and earth.

Consider the source of all statements, mine included.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bongo]

I think that there is an arguement to be made that Shindo equipment is like art. It isn't art, but it is valued in a way we value art, versus valuing diamonds because of the market value of diamonds. I think that some audio equipment is created to approximate diamonds - impressive shiny objects of our egos. It's easier for me to view these things as overpriced, since they seem more dressed to impress than to emerse their owners in musical pleasure.

Schmitt, art can be reproducable and also very valuable - think photography and music and printmaking. Uniqueness or rarity mean nothing on their own. Rare and original junk is still junk.

At the same time, some crudely created original art that seems like junk is priceless because of its originality and its conceptual and historical value. Marcel Duchamp signed a urinal "R Mutt" and declared it art. That changed the history of art by de-emphasizing the art object and proposing that the idea, the innovation, was the art. You might scoff at that, but if it came up for acution, it would stlll sell for millons.

I really doubt that many Shindo designs are strictly reproducible. They are hand made by the artisan that concieved of them. Even if they were copied, the innovation, care, and spirit contributing to their design can't be - and that's what I value. It's pretty clear that Shindo is considered innovative mainly because his gear sounds so good, not because of clever marketing.

Sure, if you were an insightful engineer, you could copy Shindo gear, but it wouldn't approximate the original and people wouldn't value it. You can masterfully cover Stairway to Heaven all you like, but who really cares? You didn't create it. When it comes down to it, we value the manifestation of innovation, not knock-offs.

[Schmitt]

Maybe Shindo products could have a status as "reproducable art" like prints of a photography which were reproduced in small numbers and people pay high prices for them.Their rarety should make them worth the money, this is a strategic decision the producer/ distributor has been done to stablilize and reach a special price point within the market. Otherwise they could be produced in larger numbers.

What I called a unique kind of art were works for example like paintings or music events. No one else could reproduce them in original style. The only method of reproduction is way cheaper than to be in the presence of the original painting or event. Someone can listen to a record or have a print from the original or a fake painting. But in all cases its not the original artwork and its content couldnt capture the fascination of the original for 100%. Thats a fundamental difference to reproducable products build by the industry. Every product of that category is fundamental reproducable once the parts and the way to build them is shown to the builder.
Only originals have their high value and that could be seen in many product categories. Fake products of any given quality are worth very little in most cases.
But those facts and fundamentals show the true nature of Shindo products: like a reprint they gain value only by their scarcity and the value as originals, not by the fact that they are unreproducable which they couldnt claim proven by their method of construction.

[Bongo]

Maybe Shindo products could have a status as "reproducable art" like prints of a photography which were reproduced in small numbers and people pay high prices for them.Their rarety should make them worth the money, this is a strategic decision the producer/ distributor has been done to stablilize and reach a special price point within the market. Otherwise they could be produced in larger numbers.

What I called a unique kind of art were works for example like paintings or music events. No one else could reproduce them in original style. The only method of reproduction is way cheaper than to be in the presence of the original painting or event. Someone can listen to a record or have a print from the original or a fake painting. But in all cases its not the original artwork and its content couldnt capture the fascination of the original for 100%. Thats a fundamental difference to reproducable products build by the industry. Every product of that category is fundamental reproducable once the parts and the way to build them is shown to the builder.
Only originals have their high value and that could be seen in many product categories. Fake products of any given quality are worth very little in most cases.
But those facts and fundamentals show the true nature of Shindo products: like a reprint they gain value only by their scarcity and the value as originals, not by the fact that they are unreproducable which they couldnt claim proven by their method of construction.


The value of scarcity is secondary to and dependent upon a poduct's quality. You overstate the role of rarity and fail to mention quality, probably because it's an easier argument to make in a forum than arguing that Shindo gear is of low quality. I agree that Shindo products are produced and marketed in a way that maintains high prices for new and used gear. Absent of high quality, though, the value (financial, emotional) of Shindo products evaporate.

[Schmitt]

OK, lets look at the value of quality in a given Shindo product, for example a loudspeaker.
We have seen that the price tag on the product could be far away from the production price. If the rarity, glamour and sought after factor of a product is high enough a high price makes it even more desirable for customers who regard status and name as important factors. People who claim the ratio of end user price vs. production price as important factor they have been long out of the game. They are the ones that declare a modded Altec speaker for 65K as insane.
So we have only this kind of customer left who is willing to spend high $$$ for a special sound quality, scaresity of product and fame and glory of a brand name.
As its common sense in many products, a car for the price of a house is overpriced for most customers.
Here we have the same situation in regard to its production price. Everyone could know easily what a used Altec speaker is worth on ebay. Given a company who will modd the chassis to field coil by removing the alnico ring magnet and putting a field coil into it (nothing kinda rocket science), having a carpenter doing a nice custom housing for the speakers and bringing a new frequency dividing and field power unit in the mix that shouldnt cost a fortune at all, even with low numbers of production units.
Bringing it all to a community who is keen for the word "Field Coil Speaker" in combination with the name of a famous company and you have the right mix to yield high $$$ profits if the quality is adequate. And the quality should be excellent, but thats not a mystical thing. Its real physics and anybody who knows how to do could do it that way. But when Mr. anybody have done it, its worth no high $$$, its only the brand name that pushes the product in that price league.
So its understandable that people who strive to quality should think about buying that product which is excellent first. In this case, its obvious that they have to pay a high obulus for the name and image of the brand, too. But as most high end companies did work out their marketing models this way its actual no exception.

[kev313]

What's your point, Uwe? You feel the price is high. Do you believe Shindo should charge less?

I should add that I agree with many of the things posted here. I find the price to be extraordinarily high for the "product" received. I've had these very same discussions in my head about the purchase! That said, at the end of the day, I can't build it myself. If I did, I'd probably lose $65,000 of my time. I also get the benefits of getting my speaker from a brand that's been tuning their approach for decades (using my same electronics) as opposed to a fly by night operation.

Also, and a point missing from your discussion, I could not reproduce the sound as Shindo intended. I put a purchase premium on that. Right or wrong doesn't apply to that value analysis. That's just my opinion. You might attribute such sentiments to marketing or false guru-ism. That's ok, and I can honestly appreciate the critique. I simply find the sound to be an enjoyable modern version of historical techniques.


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[Jerome W]

I think that Shindo electronics are priced in normal relation to the work they represent and the sound quality. A Shindo Giscours for example is actually better than a McIntosh C1000P preamp + an ARC REF phono 2. And it is much cheaper.
Well you loose a remote, balance controls, multiple EQ curves, various settings of load and capacitance. But you gain more music.
Shindo electronics are competitive.

I guess that Shindo speakers are also excellent. But being hand made does not justify their price imho. Their price is dis connected from reality.
As to the argument that the very few people who build them could be making electronics during that time, it just makes me laugh. Lots of speakers are hand made.
Like a lawyer who would justify his fees by " listen, I could be playing golf at this time or work for a big company that would pay me more ".

[kev313]

I think that Shindo electronics are priced in normal relation to the work they represent and the sound quality. A Shindo Giscours for example is actually better than a McIntosh C1000P preamp + an ARC REF phono 2. And it is much cheaper.
Well you loose a remote, balance controls, multiple EQ curves, various settings of load and capacitance. But you gain more music.
Shindo electronics are competitive.

I guess that Shindo speakers are also excellent. But being hand made does not justify their price imho. Their price is dis connected from reality.

As I've said, there are many good points and criticisms here. Ironically, I was just looking at the Stereophile site as they've posted about a visit to the new Magico factory. As far as I know, there can be no debate that Magico is in another dimension when it comes to materials and equipment expense. I may be wrong as to the material cost (and certainly there is a cost associated with having one of the Shindo employees building speakers), but by that standard the speakers prices cannot be compared.

I honestly cannot add to what I've posted. If one judges value by high tech production and materials by costly machines, yes, the Shindo price is odd. As I've said, the whole package suits my taste. Especially the sound. Of course I also find the price high. I remember being very surprised when Matt told me the premium for field coil as it had jumped quite a bit from the last price I had heard. Whether that increase was associated with currency (or what role currency plays in this) or materials, I do not know. I love my speakers very much and have no thought to sell them. But any sane individual - let me repeat: ANY SANE INDIVIDUAL - will pause and carefully consider whether a field coil modification in worth $30,000. I did. Any reasonably sane individual will also come to the conclusion that it probably doesn't cost $30,000 to modify the speaker. Given the high cost of the regular Shindo 604, it would be fair to see purchasing the FC 604 as doubling down on stupid as compared to the "value" offered by magico. That's a legitimate POV. Again, as I've said, it's a highly personal - read non objective - value analysis.


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[kev313]

I think that Shindo electronics are priced in normal relation to the work they represent and the sound quality. A Shindo Giscours for example is actually better than a McIntosh C1000P preamp + an ARC REF phono 2. And it is much cheaper.
Well you loose a remote, balance controls, multiple EQ curves, various settings of load and capacitance. But you gain more music.
Shindo electronics are competitive.

I guess that Shindo speakers are also excellent. But being hand made does not justify their price imho. Their price is dis connected from reality.
As to the argument that the very few people who build them could be making electronics during that time, it just makes me laugh. Lots of speakers are hand made.
Like a lawyer who would justify his fees by " listen, I could be playing golf at this time or work for a big company that would pay me more ".

To the last point, it's actually a lot closer to those clients who get billed at my hourly rate for travel. They pay the same for a drive to a far flung court as if I was sitting at my desk writing a brief or working on something else. Why? Because I otherwise would have been sitting at my desk writing a brief or working on something else.

Again, though, I'll admit that I'm speculating as to the basis for the price. I got a bill for my speakers, not an itemized bill.


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[Schmitt]

Again, though, I'll admit that I'm speculating as to the basis for the price. I got a bill for my speakers, not an itemized bill.
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The basis for the price you paid has been already described earlier.

[kev313]

The basis for the price you paid has been already described earlier.

Well, then...I'm glad that's settled!


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[Bongo]

What's your point, Uwe? You feel the price is high. Do you believe Shindo should charge less?

I should add that I agree with many of the things posted here. I find the price to be extraordinarily high for the "product" received. I've had these very same discussions in my head about the purchase! That said, at the end of the day, I can't build it myself. If I did, I'd probably lose $65,000 of my time. I also get the benefits of getting my speaker from a brand that's been tuning their approach for decades (using my same electronics) as opposed to a fly by night operation.

Also, and a point missing from your discussion, I could not reproduce the sound as Shindo intended. I put a purchase premium on that. Right or wrong doesn't apply to that value analysis. That's just my opinion. You might attribute such sentiments to marketing or false guru-ism. That's ok, and I can honestly appreciate the critique. I simply find the sound to be an enjoyable modern version of historical techniques.

Well put - that's the heart of it for me too kev313. I'm in the same place, which I expressed in an earlier post.

I considered building high efficiency speakers. But after months of learning about drivers, crossovers, cabinet construction and tuning, and the hit-or-miss process involved in creating a good sounding speaker, especially as a novice, I reached the same conclusion as kev313: that I'd rather not.

Also no argument from me that, on their own, the Shindo speaker value / price ratio seems lowish. It's certainly lower than the amps, which appear to involve the greatest level of innovation and engineering.

However, the speakers and amps are designed to sound best when used as a complete system. If that proposition is true, then perhaps its value / price ratio would seem more acceptable to many - me included.

Boy, I never thought I'd spend so much time on this thread discussing the rationale / validity of my purchase! I don't mind. It's a good conversation among civil gents.

[Jerome W]

To the last point, it's actually a lot closer to those clients who get billed at my hourly rate for travel. They pay the same for a drive to a far flung court as if I was sitting at my desk writing a brief or working on something else. Why? Because I otherwise would have been sitting at my desk writing a brief or working on something else.

Again, though, I'll admit that I'm speculating as to the basis for the price. I got a bill for my speakers, not an itemized bill.


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I get this point. Plain normal.

The difference being that Shindo makes much more money versus time needed when building a speaker than building an electronic gear !
Unless the wood of the cabinets come from their personal trees in the garden and songs by a cantor are needed in the morning and in the evening to make them grow ! ;)

But as I said, when you are satisfied with a purchase, and of course this is very subjective, you forget the price paid which is a good thing. You then did not pay "too much".

As to my personal views, there are as I said a few people in France able to build speakers according to your needs ( although not many are able to build field coils). If one day I decide to go with the High Eff route using Altec, LM, or GPA drivers, my choice will be to have them built for me.
But that will be rather unlikely. I never heard a high eff speaker that gave me enough density and weight at low volume.
Some high eff owners listened to my system and they agreed that at low volume, my speakers sound much more involving and full that their monsters.
High Eff speakers come to life at "real" levels. At domestic ones, they often sound thin and boring to my ears.
Still I an very curious to hear a Shindo speaker one day.

[Jerome W]

Kev,
Do you know the new price of the FC Latour ?
Must be close to 100k US no ?

[NeilNZ]

...

[Jerome W]

Nope not US$100k or near that... What's the point in asking?

You are right. There is no point for a potential customer to ask the price of a product.
Alrhough I will probably never buy them, there is still a possibility for me to fall in love with them and I have the means to afford them.
What kind of "dealer" are you exactly to be ashamed of a price and to hold customers in contempt ?

[NeilNZ]

...

[kev313]

Kev,
Do you know the new price of the FC Latour ?
Must be close to 100k US no ?

I do not know. My interest in hearing the Shindo version of the Altec 604 was longstanding as I first corresponded with Jonathan in 2005! A lifetime ago. As a longtime Altec user (I actually came into HiFi with Klipsch Heresies and Cornwalls so I have always leaned toward the high efficiency crowd) was never interested in the Latour, though I have heard it and it is wonderful.


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[Smile]

You are such a strange contentious individual.

This is how we are "not friendly". Speak to the point made, do not criticize the poster personally.

[Paul]

You are right. There is no point for a potential customer to ask the price of a product.
Alrhough I will probably never buy them, there is still a possibility for me to fall in love with them and I have the means to afford them.
What kind of "dealer" are you exactly to be ashamed of a price and to hold customers in contempt ?
Hi Jerome. :)

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/12/13e174284829ccd2fc10c51f63c5ef8a.jpg

[kev313]

Hi Jerome. :)

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/12/13e174284829ccd2fc10c51f63c5ef8a.jpg

Oh come on. I think this has been a good discussion. Let's not drag it down to the level of your expectations.


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[NeilNZ]

You are such a strange contentious individual.

This is how we are "not friendly". Speak to the point made, do not criticize the poster personally.

Right, so it's ok for me to be criticised, with the statement below, but not ok for me to point out a truism?



What kind of "dealer" are you exactly to be ashamed of a price and to hold customers in contempt ?

I have again proven to myself why forums are fraught with peril.
Over and out.

[Bongo]

I do not know. My interest in hearing the Shindo version of the Altec 604 was longstanding as I first corresponded with Jonathan in 2005! A lifetime ago. As a longtime Altec user (I actually came into HiFi with Klipsch Heresies and Cornwalls so I have always leaned toward the high efficiency crowd) was never interested in the Latour, though I have heard it and it is wonderful.

Interesting. When I heard Steven's Petite Latours in Santa Fe, I was surprised to hear aspects of their sonic signature shared to some degree with my now dead Altec 14's. The PL's were orders of magnitude more refined and dynamic but something about the sound stage and a certain forward presentation of aspects of the midrange were familiar - and not in a bad way. I've yet to hear the full size Latours - did you hear bits of the "heritage" of Altecs from your past?

BTW - feel free to keep it to yourself. I simply want to talk about the sound, not open that other can of worms about Shindo/Altec/cost/value.

[Jerome W]

Neil,
You are "criticized" because of your attitude.
What is the problem in asking the MSRP of a product ?
I asked because I was surprised at the 30k that was charged to Kev for the FC upgrade.
For any other brand than Shindo, this simple question gets clear answers. I know the MSRP of any McIntosh, ARC, Wilson, CJ, Dartzeel, Nagra....product. Shindo ?
The Big Secret !
For Shindo, you get this answer from a dealer : "what's the point of asking?"
Do you realize how weird you may appear with such attitude ?
If you do not want to give an information, then why not remain silent ??

[Schmitt]

<the top-of-the-line field-coil version but Latours are available in other iterations starting at $29,500/pr.> So there are options with this speakers and its FC uprades.

[kev313]

<the top-of-the-line field-coil version but Latours are available in other iterations starting at $29,500/pr.> So there are options with this speakers and its FC uprades.

That looks like a possible price for the petite alnico latour. I believe petite with FC were in the ballpark of 604 FC. Can't really recall.


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[Jerome W]

<the top-of-the-line field-coil version but Latours are available in other iterations starting at $29,500/pr.> So there are options with this speakers and its FC uprades.

Thanks.
And the Latour FC is at 60k ?

[kev313]

Thanks.
And the Latour FC is at 60k ?

I do not think that is accurate. I believe the Full FC Latour requires greater modification to the drivers and, hence, the price exceeds that of the FC 604.


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[Jerome W]

I do not think that is accurate. I believe the Full FC Latour requires greater modification to the drivers and, hence, the price exceeds that of the FC 604.


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That would be logical Kev.

[Bongo]

$65k. It's all so fascinating isn't it??

[Katoomer]

Chuckle

[Loop4fun]

That looks like a possible price for the petite alnico latour. I believe petite with FC were in the ballpark of 604 FC. Can't really recall.


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The field coil PL and field coil 604 are very close in retail cost. Or were a year ago.


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[Loop4fun]

The field coil PL and field coil 604 are very close in retail cost. Or were a year ago.


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I've never once regretted the purchase.


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[Jerome W]

The field coil PL and field coil 604 are very close in retail cost. Or were a year ago.


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So the FC Latour is 65k and the FC Petite Latour is at what price ?
If the FC604 and the FC Petite Latour are at the same price, could you elaborate a bit on the differences in sound ? Petite Latour is more suited for small rooms ?
Last question on FC speakers and please excuse my ignorance :
Is there an on / off switch on the rear of the speaker or does the FC circuit stays under tension all the time ?
Thanks a lot !

[Loop4fun]

I keep the field coil on all the time. If I take a two week trip maybe I'll unplug them, or just turn off the Mr T that powers them if I remember to do it. The PL and the 604 are in the $55 to $60 range. The Latour is about $70. I can't elaborate on the sound since I've never heard the 604, but you can also get the 604 in the PL size cabinet. The PL itself is a good sized and hefty speaker. The Petite woofer is a 12 inch rather than the 15 of the Latour and 604, I'd have no chance of fitting the Latour or in my room. The Petite can be used in a big room, the Latour in a really big room. Petite is kind of a misnomer, It's not really very petite.

I will say that I spent an evening not long ago with a really really nice high end Focal system. I asked to pay a record that I remember Matt playing at his Greenhaus. When Matt played the record on the big Latour all 20 people stopped talking dead in their tracks and just listened. When the same record was played on the Focal system everyone just kept right on visiting as usual. The Shindo/Latour had that special "it" factor.

[Jerome W]

I keep the field coil on all the time. If I take a two week trip maybe I'll unplug them, or just turn off the Mr T that powers them if I remember to do it. The PL and the 604 are in the $55 to $60 range. The Latour is about $70. I can't elaborate on the sound since I've never heard the 604, but you can also get the 604 in the PL size cabinet. The PL itself is a good sized and hefty speaker. The Petite woofer is a 12 inch rather than the 15 of the Latour and 604, I'd have no chance of fitting the Latour or in my room. The Petite can be used in a big room, the Latour in a really big room. Petite is kind of a misnomer, It's not really very petite.

I will say that I spent an evening not long ago with a really really nice high end Focal system. I asked to pay a record that I remember Matt playing at his Greenhaus. When Matt played the record on the big Latour all 20 people stopped talking dead in their tracks and just listened. When the same record was played on the Focal system everyone just kept right on visiting as usual. The Shindo/Latour had that special "it" factor.

Thanks a lot !!!
Very useful information !

[kev313]

I keep the field coil on all the time. If I take a two week trip maybe I'll unplug them, or just turn off the Mr T that powers them if I remember to do it. The PL and the 604 are in the $55 to $60 range. The Latour is about $70. I can't elaborate on the sound since I've never heard the 604, but you can also get the 604 in the PL size cabinet. The PL itself is a good sized and hefty speaker. The Petite woofer is a 12 inch rather than the 15 of the Latour and 604, I'd have no chance of fitting the Latour or in my room. The Petite can be used in a big room, the Latour in a really big room. Petite is kind of a misnomer, It's not really very petite.

I will say that I spent an evening not long ago with a really really nice high end Focal system. I asked to pay a record that I remember Matt playing at his Greenhaus. When Matt played the record on the big Latour all 20 people stopped talking dead in their tracks and just listened. When the same record was played on the Focal system everyone just kept right on visiting as usual. The Shindo/Latour had that special "it" factor.

The 604 can be very nice in smaller rooms. Matt and Jonathan are *very* helpful with speaker and room discussions.

**important edit**
I actually just reviewed my prior correspondence to confirm price and see if I had info on the big Latours. While I do not have any info on the full size FC Latour, I believe I have mistakenly referenced my price as 65k where it was actually 60k in 2013. The standard non FC 604 is 35k. Sorry for any confusion!

Again, this probably highlights either early onset dementia on my part or my inner belief that I love my speakers so much I'd have paid the extra $5000. Or both. It definitely shows that interested parties should consult their dealer.

Let me leave everyone with one other piece of advice (unsolicited): IF you are actually interested in Shindo speakers in this range, do yourself a favor and ask Matt or JH to give you the run down on the new A23 models as well. They are gorgeous and give many more speaker and price options. I could've easily gone with 4 different A23 speakers. (homage Ken, cinema, whatever they call the WE type speaker about Cornwall sized with the LM tweeter on top, or the giant LM horns). Gorgeous gorgeous speaker which to my eye aesthetically outdistance the Shindo cabs by a wide margin.


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[Jerome W]

The 604 can be very nice in smaller rooms. Matt and Jonathan are *very* helpful with speaker and room discussions.

**important edit**
I actually just reviewed my prior correspondence to confirm price and see if I had info on the big Latours. While I do not have any info on the full size FC Latour, I believe I have mistakenly referenced my price as 65k where it was actually 60k in 2013. The standard non FC 604 is 35k. Sorry for any confusion!

Again, this probably highlights either early onset dementia on my part or my inner belief that I love my speakers so much I'd have paid the extra $5000. Or both. It definitely shows that interested parties should consult their dealer.

Let me leave everyone with one other piece of advice (unsolicited): IF you are actually interested in Shindo speakers in this range, do yourself a favor and ask Matt or JH to give you the run down on the new A23 models as well. They are gorgeous and give many more speaker and price options. I could've easily gone with 4 different A23 speakers. (homage Ken, cinema, whatever they call the WE type speaker about Cornwall sized with the LM tweeter on top, or the giant LM horns). Gorgeous gorgeous speaker which to my eye aesthetically outdistance the Shindo cabs by a wide margin.


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Thanks !

I have to find some time to visit Keith.
His speakers receive great praise in the shows when he demonstrates them. Unfortunately he has no dealer in France for his speakers. ( one dealer sells the cables and the SUTs ).
I am not interested in aesthetics for my main set up. Only sound quality matters.

[Bongo]

If I were working with a budget that allowed for field coil Shindos, I would certainly give a serious listen to the Auditorium23 22A and Cinema Hommage. Those horns on the 22A's look anachronistic but I like them. Everything I've read about them are over-the-top positive. Being semi active speakers, they allow for bass tuning. Given the A23 and LM choices in my price range, I thought that the Alnico 604 was the best choice for a full range speaker.

The speaker made by auditorium 23 with the tweeter on top looks pretty intriguing, but I didn't think they were making it yet. I could be mistaken about that. They do look very interesting.

[Schmitt]

Thats the Line magnetic 597 tweeter. Its an excellent one.

[Bongo]

It seems that all of the drivers and horns made by LM are excellent. All-o-that technology is older than dirt sonny!

[Cucumber_jones]

It seems that all of the drivers and horns made by LM are excellent. All-o-that technology is older than dirt sonny!


The LM 755a is awesome. I would know.


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[Schmitt]

Is there anything how Shindo would have done to overcome the difficulties with 604?

[kev313]

Is there anything how Shindo would have done to overcome the difficulties with 604?

Yes? It starts with a recognition that audio is not a zero sum game.


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[Schmitt]

So what it comes to details, you become a philosopher? LOL
Timewaster...

[kev313]

So what it comes to details, you become a philosopher? LOL
Timewaster...

No. I've always been a philosopher. But a "Time waster"? That's interesting. I'm going to guess that I've said more about owning field coil 604s than anyone.

In. The. History. Of. The Internet.

Details: 604. Cabinet. Wood. Vented. Field coils. That's about it. Not terribly impressive on paper, I'm afraid.

If you want more details, call Shindo. They're a more reliable source for technical information. But my first answer will lead you down a better path.


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[Bongo]

The LM 755a is awesome. I would know.


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I'm very much looking forward to my first listen. Enjoy yours Chris!

[Bongo]

Is there anything how Shindo would have done to overcome the difficulties with 604?

Lots of speakers have difficulties - matching to certain amps, frequency extremes, cohesion among drivers, room matching. You imply that you know of the particular limitations of the 604 driver. If you care to be specific, it would be a more interesting conversation.

I don't plan to pry mine open to in search of the "special sauce" but apparently the drivers are heavily modified, the crossover is original, internal wiring is new, and of course the 604 is housed in and voiced for the largest enclosure I've seen used with 604's, which is down-ported.

Because I bought mine without getting to hear them first, I was keenly interested in the reviews and opinions of those with direct experience of them. Everyone that hears them loves them, so I'll assume that Shindo's modifications overcame most of the so-called difficulties. I'd be surprised if anyone with knowledge of the technical modifications would share specifics on forums. Those details would be less interesting (comprehensible) to the average person than Shindo 604 owners describing how the speakers sound when compared to stock 604's.

[kev313]

Lots of speakers have difficulties - matching to certain amps, frequency extremes, cohesion among drivers, room matching. You imply that you know of the particular limitations of the 604 driver. If you care to be specific, it would be a more interesting conversation.

I don't plan to pry mine open to in search of the "special sauce" but apparently the drivers are heavily modified, the crossover is original, internal wiring is new, and of course the 604 is housed in and voiced for the largest enclosure I've seen used with 604's, which is down-ported.

Because I bought mine without getting to hear them first, I was keenly interested in the reviews and opinions of those with direct experience of them. Everyone that hears them loves them, so I'll assume that Shindo's modifications overcame most of the so-called difficulties. I'd be surprised if anyone with knowledge of the technical modifications would share specifics on forums. Those details would be less interesting (comprehensible) to the average person than Shindo 604 owners describing how the speakers sound when compared to stock 604's.

Your crossover is original on the Shindo? I thought he had a custom crossover. In fact, it was my understanding that it was sold separately back when Shindo was more willing to sell components as opposed to only complete systems.


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[Cucumber_jones]

Your crossover is original on the Shindo? I thought he had a custom crossover. In fact, it was my understanding that it was sold separately back when Shindo was more willing to sell components as opposed to only complete systems.


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I would be shocked if it was the original crossover and not a shindo one.

[Loop4fun]

I would be shocked if it was the original crossover and not a shindo one.

Yes, I would be surprised as well.

[omodo]

Perhaps the poster meant "original shindo"

talk about jumping to conclusions...

[kev313]

Perhaps the poster meant "original shindo"

talk about jumping to conclusions...

True!


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[Bongo]

That's right, I meant that the crossover was an original Shindo creation and not the stock Altec one. The point being that, from what I've read, it was one of a suite of modifications that Shindo made to create a loudspeaker that transcended the performance of previous speakers using the 604 driver.

[Schmitt]

https://trashcomplex.wordpress.com/2012/04/05/book-review-the-timewaster-letters-by-robin-cooper/

[kev313]

Ahh Schmitty, you're perfect, I tell ya. Perfect. http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/07/35c29cd77b42c2cc2398990e2fdbf934.jpg


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[Bongo]

Awww. Young love...

[Schmitt]

ROFL

[briguy]

Apologies if this has been posted before (point me to it if it has), but has anyone heard the Auditorium 23 Hommage 22A yet?

It's a beautiful speaker for sure and I'm sure it would pair well with Shindo. Wondering if this speaker would be an upgrade from my Shindo 604's.

Anyone know the MSRP on the 22A?

http://audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12776&stc=1

http://audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12774&stc=1

http://audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12775&stc=1

[Cucumber_jones]

Apologies if this has been posted before (point me to it if it has), but has anyone heard the Auditorium 23 Hommage 22A yet?

It's a beautiful speaker for sure and I'm sure it would pair well with Shindo. Wondering if this speaker would be an upgrade from my Shindo 604's.

Anyone know the MSRP on the 22A?

[]

Email Matt.

I suspect they would sound different then your 604's. To some better and to some not.

If my memory serves me they are around 75k. The they are the best looking speakers I have ever seen. Keith is an artist. There is a dealer who has a pair. You would need to fly there to listen.

[Bongo]

I've been hoping that one of us Shindo guys would go for it and get them. Brian, could you be the one?

I haven't heard them. In Living Stereo keeps a pair on demo. Don Better has (had?) the Cinema Hommage on demo. Not sure about Matt.

Side trip: I did see them in 2013 on a visit to NYC at ILS, but they were in the lobby and I didn't get to hear them. When I walked over to the demo AlNiCo 604's, the sales guy said they were his favorite speakers. I asked if the FC versions were a lot better, and he said he didn't think so, and would order 604 AlNiCo's himself.

I agree that the A22's look fantastic. I believe that JH has them in his system, and he told my dealer that the Cinema and 22A may be his favorite speakers with Shindo gear. When I inquired about Shindo speakers, because of my listening room layout and the strong bass reinforcement provided by my walls, JH suggested that I look at the A22 and Cinema speakers since they have active adjustable woofers in the bottom enclosure, making it easier to tune lower frequencies. Budget prevented me from doing so, but if money were no object, they would be a top choice. Hopefully, the 604's will prove to be more manageable than rear firing speakers like the O/96s.

[Schmitt]

OK. Lemme show ya whats inside the box. You'll be surprised.12786

[kev313]

I can confirm that's not what the inside of mine look like


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[omodo]

yeah.. who knows

it's inside an old Bozak speaker, according to the forum post the photo was from...

New Years Eve find.... Bozaks, but..... - AudioKarma.org Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums (http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=342044)

lots of nice Kimsul paper though, that's probably worth something to WE guys

[kev313]

yeah.. who knows

it's inside an Bozak speaker, according to the forum post the photo was from...

New Years Eve find.... Bozaks, but..... - AudioKarma.org Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums (http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=342044)

lots of nice Kimsul paper though, that's probably worth something to WE guys

I knew it was bullSchmitt.


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[Cucumber_jones]

OK. Lemme show ya whats inside the box. You'll be surprised.12786

Sorry, but what the fuck does this have to do with shindo 604's? When did this thread become about some bozak speakers.

The problem with a stupid post like this is it is damaging to the brands being discussed. This photo has nothing to do with shindo or Auditorium.

[Loop4fun]

Sorry, but what the fuck does this have to do with shindo 604's? When did this thread become about some bozak speakers.

The problem with a stupid post like this is it is damaging to the brands being discussed. This photo has nothing to do with shindo or Auditorium.

Chris, I think Schmitt was trying to pass that picture off as being the inside of a 604. Kev and Omodo were just calling BS on his post. He lifted that photo off an old Bozak post. The subject hasn't changed... Unless I'm misreading this.

[Mike]

I can confirm that's not what the inside of mine look like


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Do you happen to have a picture of the inside?

[dlb2]

I knew it was bullSchmitt.




LMAO!!!

[kev313]

Do you happen to have a picture of the inside?

I do not


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[dlb2]

Do you happen to have a picture of the inside?

No need Mike. Those who appreciate the way the speaker (and please insert any and all gear here) sounds don't need pictures. Those who don't care for the sound will find something different and those who just wanna hate will just hate.

And those who want to stir up shit ask for pictures. :P

[Mike]

There isn't a whole hell of a lot to those old WE speakers or even some of the early Avantgarde speakers I've heard either and they sound incredible.

Sometimes less is more.

[Bongo]

For the first time ever, a picture of the inside of a Shindo 604:

http://audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12789&stc=1

[kev313]

For the first time ever, a picture of the inside of a Shindo 604:

http://audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12789&stc=1

Ok ok. Enjoy http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/15/56e51ddd1d48e06fcd55cb9d562ebeea.jpg


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[Mike]

Ok ok. Enjoy http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/15/56e51ddd1d48e06fcd55cb9d562ebeea.jpg


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LOL.

[Schmitt]

Kev,
Great snapshot of your Shindo!
Would be nice if you could do a pic of the exterieur of the speaker, too. Must look great.

No Kimsul, instead modern wiring inside. Frustration keeps growing..

[puroagave]

LOL.

MEP is gonna have a field day:hey:

[kev313]

MEP is gonna have a field day:hey:

Why? I took the carbon fiber off before the picture. Hahaha.


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[Mike]

MEP is gonna have a field day:hey:

Yeah, he was wondering where his shoelace went.

[Mike]

Why? I took the carbon fiber off before the picture. Hahaha.


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And the ceramic and the diamond? Now we need measurements to tell us if they sound good. LOL.

[kev313]

Yeah, he was wondering where his shoelace went.

Funny. I've had him pegged as a Velcro guy.


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[Bongo]

Ok ok. Enjoy http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/15/56e51ddd1d48e06fcd55cb9d562ebeea.jpg


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Yes, this is what I've been talking about, the artistry of the man - an embodiment of his righteous soul, his integrity and ingenuity. How can we, the devoted, behold such a sight and not fall to the floor and cry?

[kev313]

Right? Can't believe I'm letting out the secrets. http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/15/b164551d4c3db5d58b0f7a54ceb2f615.jpg


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[kev313]

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/15/7ca8d45a2234ff2550a6c4e4d0699258.jpg


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[Bongo]

Whoa there Nelly!

[Schmitt]

Great Kev, Im almost in a state of Shindoism trance. Whats next to your puzzle?

[Bongo]

A 30 yo design that looks like a $600 DIY speaker with limited resale value: it takes a lot of confidence to write that check!

*Now reading other posts in this thread, I see I am piling on. Still, you believe in your ears to go this route against the formidable and more mainstream offerings.


While Smile, Jerome, and good ol' Schmitt certainly contributed color to this post, the comments were pretty antagonistic about these speakers. I certainly didn't want to leave Schmitt the last word...

My 604's arrived a few weeks ago. The first thing that struck me was that they were flat gorgeous. Everyone that has seen them loved the woodwork and finish. They've assumed a warm and commanding presence in the room. DIY? Not by a darned sight.

I burned them in for some 150 hours before hopping back on this thread, mainly using an old NAD amp and my DirectStream DAC. They initially sounded like crap. Flat. Just flat. Good lower frequencies, but oh-my-god flat.

Over time, they opened up and sound something like a good speaker, but only for a few hours before returning to crap. Yes, it made me a bit nervous.

The week my speakers arrived, my dealer had visited to help me set up the system and he left a Masseto to demo. It was a nice step up from the Aurieges. This week I took delivery of a near perfect used Vosne Romanee purchased from a fantastic guy on Audiogon. The VR was a another pretty dramatic improvement, just as the speakers finally began to open up. The NAD went in the storage room and the VR and Haut Brion have been playmates ever since.

I'll leave it at this for now. I have no regrets about getting the speakers. It's nirvana so, suck on that! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I'M OUT OF HERE - SO LONG BITCHES!

Just kidding! (please don't ban me, Mike and Joe)

I really do love this system. I want to thank Brian and Bill for steering me (with confidence) in the right direction. I'll probably do a review once the speakers settle in a bit more. For now, the imaging, soundstage, sub woofer like bass, the tone, and holistic sound coming from these speakers is amazing. I'm very happy with them, even though they aren't fully burned in. For me, worth the cost.

http://www.audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=13815&stc=1http://www.audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=13816&stc=1http://www.audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=13817&stc=1

[Mike]

Bongo, thanks for sharing. Great looking pics. Gorgeous Shindo system. I love the Shindo sound.


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[Paul]

Craig, Love your system. I'm so glad it met your expectation. Enjoy it in good health.

I also loved my Shindo gear (VR,CC80,Montille CV391,Aurigies and Mr.T ) when I had them. I would still have them if I didn't have any issue with the dealer and distributor.

Keep us posted. :thumbsup:

[Loop4fun]

Craig, They are gorgeous! Congratulations! I'd love to hear them.

[briguy]

While Smile, Jerome, and good ol' Schmitt certainly contributed color to this post, the comments were pretty antagonistic about these speakers. I certainly didn't want to leave Schmitt the last word...

My 604's arrived a few weeks ago. The first thing that struck me was that they were flat gorgeous. Everyone that has seen them loved the woodwork and finish. They've assumed a warm and commanding presence in the room. DIY? Not by a darned sight.

I burned them in for some 150 hours before hopping back on this thread, mainly using an old NAD amp and my DirectStream DAC. They initially sounded like crap. Flat. Just flat. Good lower frequencies, but oh-my-god flat.

Over time, they opened up and sound something like a good speaker, but only for a few hours before returning to crap. Yes, it made me a bit nervous.

The week my speakers arrived, my dealer had visited to help me set up the system and he left a Masseto to demo. It was a nice step up from the Aurieges. This week I took delivery of a near perfect used Vosne Romanee purchased from a fantastic guy on Audiogon. The VR was a another pretty dramatic improvement, just as the speakers finally began to open up. The NAD went in the storage room and the VR and Haut Brion have been playmates ever since.

I'll leave it at this for now. I have no regrets about getting the speakers. It's nirvana so, suck on that! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I'M OUT OF HERE - SO LONG BITCHES!

Just kidding! (please don't ban me, Mike and Joe)

I really do love this system. I want to thank Brian and Bill for steering me (with confidence) in the right direction. I'll probably do a review once the speakers settle in a bit more. For now, the imaging, soundstage, sub woofer like bass, the tone, and holistic sound coming from these speakers is amazing. I'm very happy with them, even though they aren't fully burned in. For me, worth the cost.

http://www.audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=13815&stc=1http://www.audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=13816&stc=1http://www.audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=13817&stc=1
Congrats! I love my 604's with the Vosne Romanee. If you start looking at amps, the Cortese is shockingly good with lots of sweetness and refinement. I upgraded recently to the Lafon's and that's a whole other level of otherworldliness.

Planning to move up to the field coil Latour's next then probably a Giscours. Then I'm done.

I'd just leave the speakers playing something with some bass while you're at work for a few weeks. They'll open up just fine.

I'm not able to see your pics. Which finish dos you go with?

I've got some ideas for the Latour's I'll be getting that are probably unconventional.

How long was the actual wait from the time you placed the order until delivery?

[Cucumber_jones]

The whole system looks awesome. The room looks problematic though. All that glass behind the speakers can't be kind on he sound. Maybe some heavy curtains.

Next replace the demon with a Emt and a A23 sut and you will be in heaven.

[Bongo]

Congrats! I love my 604's with the Vosne Romanee. If you start looking at amps, the Cortese is shockingly good with lots of sweetness and refinement. I upgraded recently to the Lafon's and that's a whole other level of otherworldliness.

Planning to move up to the field coil Latour's next then probably a Giscours. Then I'm done.

I'd just leave the speakers playing something with some bass while you're at work for a few weeks. They'll open up just fine.

I'm not able to see your pics. Which finish dos you go with?

I've got some ideas for the Latour's I'll be getting that are probably unconventional.

How long was the actual wait from the time you placed the order until delivery?

I ordered the speakers July 16 and they arrived October 29. Didn't hear much about the order until it had shipped.

I got the Pau Ferro finish. Due to their placement in the room, I asked for them to veneer the back. They did - apparently a first for Shindo. Given how nice they turned out, I'm sure it won't be the last. I'll post a picture below, but the backs are very nice.

We have a southwestern adobe home, but we have modern walnut cabinetry throughout the house (a rustic modern style house), and the speakers blend in perfectly. We have some De La Espada furniture which is known for a high level of woodwork (the sofa is one, although it was recently slipcovered due to cat damage) and the speakers are in the same class of fine furniture finish.

Congratulations on the the plan to get FC Latours! Holy cow! I don't even know all of the finishes available for Shindo speakers, but l'll be interested to see what finish you choose. Like you, I have certainly caught the bug for this stuff, but I'm going to hold for now. Those Latours should be amazing.



http://www.audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=13857&stc=1

[Bongo]

The whole system looks awesome. The room looks problematic though. All that glass behind the speakers can't be kind on he sound. Maybe some heavy curtains.

Next replace the demon with a Emt and a A23 sut and you will be in heaven.

Well, I've got an EMT TSD15, although a friend's son dragged it across my mat one day and bent the cantilever a bit, so it needs a trip to EMT for repair. My dealer suggested the T2 Homage too. At some point, I'll probably go there. The biggest improvement facing my modified Lenco is the need to tame some rumble, despite a new Peter Reinders bearing. Did you modify your Garrard?

Yes, the room is unusual for a listening room, but it has some excellent acoustic qualities to start with - solid mud walls with slightly rough finish plaster (not diamond smooth which would reflect), wood ceiling, and even the concrete floors. The speakers are so commanding or flexible or something, that they sound fantastic without window treatments. The horns are directional so I'm not getting lots of side wall reflections of the HF. Outside of the room, the HF sounds muffled - until I go sit in front of the 604's again.
Still, I ordered curtain rods and today the linen curtains should be ready for the glass door (front wall) and the window behind the rear wall position. I hope to have all curtains up today. That should help tame HF reflections. The sofa and rug help a lot with this. Also, my ceiling is wood "viga" beams and planks, and it does an amazing job of absorbing HF reflections and also LF too.

Between the speakers and the glass door is a passageway and the two openings allow LF sounds to escape. This is important because the rest of the room is mud adobe walls (with concrete floors) and the LF reinforcement is unreal. The glass door helps with LF too, because because it allows LF to pass through without reflecting back into the room - keeps the LF sounds fast and effortless. All the more remarkable that these speakers sound like two subwoofers are in the room too. I'm surprised by the LF response which is much stronger than I'd imagined.

[Bongo]

Bongo, thanks for sharing. Great looking pics. Gorgeous Shindo system. I love the Shindo sound.


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Thanks Mike!

[Bongo]

Craig, Love your system. I'm so glad it met your expectation. Enjoy it in good health.

I also loved my Shindo gear (VR,CC80,Montille CV391,Aurigies and Mr.T ) when I had them. I would still have them if I didn't have any issue with the dealer and distributor.

Keep us posted. :thumbsup:

Thanks Paul - I may open another thread to describe them from unboxing through the break-in.

[Bongo]

Craig, They are gorgeous! Congratulations! I'd love to hear them.

Thanks Bill, and thanks again for the input. Of course you are welcome to visit if you're in the area!

[briguy]

I ordered the speakers July 16 and they arrived October 29. Didn't hear much about the order until it had shipped.

I got the Pau Ferro finish. Due to their placement in the room, I asked for them to veneer the back. They did - apparently a first for Shindo. Given how nice they turned out, I'm sure it won't be the last. I'll post a picture below, but the backs are very nice.

We have a southwestern adobe home, but we have modern walnut cabinetry throughout the house (a rustic modern style house), and the speakers blend in perfectly. We have some De La Espada furniture which is known for a high level of woodwork (the sofa is one, although it was recently slipcovered due to cat damage) and the speakers are in the same class of fine furniture finish.

Congratulations on the the plan to get FC Latours! Holy cow! I don't even know all of the finishes available for Shindo speakers, but l'll be interested to see what finish you choose. Like you, I have certainly caught the bug for this stuff, but I'm going to hold for now. Those Latours should be amazing.



http://www.audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=13857&stc=1

I see the pics now. Looks fantastic.

Funnily, I was just writing Matt to see if the rear of the Latour's can be veneered. Looks like the answer is yes, which is fantastic. How much extra did it cost to do the rears?

As much as I love the Pau Ferra finish, I might go in a slightly different direction to fit the aesthetics in my room. I also have this idea for getting the speakers finished to kinda match a the tobacco sunburst finish you'd find on a Les Paul, but still toying with the eye.

[Loop4fun]

I ordered the speakers July 16 and they arrived October 29. Didn't hear much about the order until it had shipped.

I got the Pau Ferro finish. Due to their placement in the room, I asked for them to veneer the back. They did - apparently a first for Shindo. Given how nice they turned out, I'm sure it won't be the last. I'll post a picture below, but the backs are very nice.





http://www.audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=13857&stc=1

I wish I had thought of that! The back of my PL is black.

[fjn04]

Congrats on your 604's Craig. They look gorgeous, and I'm sure they sound wonderful. We have to get you a rack ? (-:

[Bongo]

Congrats on your 604's Craig. They look gorgeous, and I'm sure they sound wonderful. We have to get you a rack ? (-:

Eventually, that might be a good idea. The table is old pine - a WPA table from the 30's. It is nice and stout. I had a cabinet company that does work for me create a bottom shelf out of dense hard plywood - maple, I think. I don't have any way of knowing the difference between this setup and a rack, but it sounds good to me.

[Bongo]

I wish I had thought of that! The back of my PL is black.

You know, my dealer said that when Ken was alive, he refused to veneer the backs. I didn't know that, and I asked if they could do it having recalled seeing ones that were painted black. I think that this is the first pair with veneered backs. It cost a few grand extra, but they certainly look like fully finished furniture.

[Bongo]

I see the pics now. Looks fantastic.

Funnily, I was just writing Matt to see if the rear of the Latour's can be veneered. Looks like the answer is yes, which is fantastic. How much extra did it cost to do the rears?

As much as I love the Pau Ferra finish, I might go in a slightly different direction to fit the aesthetics in my room. I also have this idea for getting the speakers finished to kinda match a the tobacco sunburst finish you'd find on a Les Paul, but still toying with the eye.


Brian - the veneers were $1800 extra ($900 per) with the Pau Ferro. I love the idea of getting innovative with the veneer! Can't wait to see that.

[briguy]

Brian - the veneers were $1800 extra ($900 per) with the Pau Ferro. I love the idea of getting innovative with the veneer! Can't wait to see that.
That's not too bad. I wonder why Ken refused to veneer the rear of the speakers. Seems pretty logical, especially at this price point.

[Jerome W]

Very nice job !
Congrats !


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[Bongo]

Very nice job !
Congrats !


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Thanks Jerome! They continue to break in, alternating between being shouty with not much HF response or sparkle to where they open up nicely for a few hours. Then they go back again. Yippie. Jonathan told my dealer that they'd take a while to sound their best. I think they are over 200 or so hours by now - he was right.

In other news, I repositioned the system against the former back wall, which is solid adobe. Chris would be pleased. Curtains are up on the sliding glass wall and the front wall window, so reflections are nicely muted. It's a better listening position - more in the room and not near a rear wall. The whole thing works better and I have more control over LF response, mainly by adjusting the speakers' turn-in. Strange, huh? No nasty LF nodes. Also, with the speakers closer to the amp, I ordered Shindo speaker cables. I attached a picture - the Haut Brion is in for a checkup, so the Sophia Electrics drive the 604's for now.

http://www.audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=14001&stc=1

[Jerome W]

What a beautiful room !

[Bongo]

Thanks Jerome. By the way, my heart goes out to you and your countrymen and countrywomen.

[Mike]

Thanks Jerome! They continue to break in, alternating between being shouty with not much HF response or sparkle to where they open up nicely for a few hours. Then they go back again. Yippie. Jonathan told my dealer that they'd take a while to sound their best. I think they are over 200 or so hours by now - he was right.

In other news, I repositioned the system against the former back wall, which is solid adobe. Chris would be pleased. Curtains are up on the sliding glass wall and the front wall window, so reflections are nicely muted. It's a better listening position - more in the room and not near a rear wall. The whole thing works better and I have more control over LF response, mainly by adjusting the speakers' turn-in. Strange, huh? No nasty LF nodes. Also, with the speakers closer to the amp, I ordered Shindo speaker cables. I attached a picture - the Haut Brion is in for a checkup, so the Sophia Electrics drive the 604's for now.

http://www.audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=14001&stc=1

Beautiful room. Gorgeous setup. I would love to hear this.

[Cucumber_jones]

The room is looking good! How are the 604's working out for you?

[Bongo]

Chris,
I think that I'd like to do a review of the 604's at some point. It took quite a while for them to burn-in, but they started hitting their stride consistently last week.

In my listening room, they produce a sound that is a beguiling mix of meaty and delicate. They convey wonderful tones. They create a huge soundstage and, with them placed as far apart as the room will permit, they image like crazy. Voices and instruments that occupy the mid and high frequencies tend to nestle nicely within a larger sound field of lower frequency sounds that really fills the room. The system has amazing drive, but it also sounds very detailed (in the HiFi sense), and some tracks create a very realistic sense of space or venue. I've also found that spreading the speakers out and moving the listening seat back as far as possible helps separate the instruments and sounds in more dense music. In short, they are really wonderful.

I meant to respond earlier. It was a crazy January for me. Among other things, my 23 year old son and his mom (my ex-wife) traveled to Cuba and on the first day, his appendix ruptured, requiring surgery. Luckily Laurel was an ER doc and they were with a group of doctors, so he had proper supervision. Unfortunately, the lack of medicine, post operative care, and (for some reason) food, led to his condition worsening, necessitating a medical evacuation by air ambulance to Houston. We stayed in Houston until he recovered enough to return to Portland, where he lives. Thankfully he's recovering well.

[fjn04]

Craig- Wish you all the best with your son. Sounds like it was a nightmare, which thankfully worked out.

[Bongo]

Thank you. He's doing well. My ex wife had to fight to get them to operate and then fight again for basic care - antibiotics and IV fluids. Everything paid for in cash to the hospital. He lost 30 pounds in 5 days and looked like a POW when he returned, but Laurel saved his life.

[Cucumber_jones]

Chris,
I think that I'd like to do a review of the 604's at some point. It took quite a while for them to burn-in, but they started hitting their stride consistently last week.

In my listening room, they produce a sound that is a beguiling mix of meaty and delicate. They convey wonderful tones. They create a huge soundstage and, with them placed as far apart as the room will permit, they image like crazy. Voices and instruments that occupy the mid and high frequencies tend to nestle nicely within a larger sound field of lower frequency sounds that really fills the room. The system has amazing drive, but it also sounds very detailed (in the HiFi sense), and some tracks create a very realistic sense of space or venue. I've also found that spreading the speakers out and moving the listening seat back as far as possible helps separate the instruments and sounds in more dense music. In short, they are really wonderful.

I meant to respond earlier. It was a crazy January for me. Among other things, my 23 year old son and his mom (my ex-wife) traveled to Cuba and on the first day, his appendix ruptured, requiring surgery. Luckily Laurel was an ER doc and they were with a group of doctors, so he had proper supervision. Unfortunately, the lack of medicine, post operative care, and (for some reason) food, led to his condition worsening, necessitating a medical evacuation by air ambulance to Houston. We stayed in Houston until he recovered enough to return to Portland, where he lives. Thankfully he's recovering well.

Oh my god. I am so sorry to hear this. I was always under the impression that the medical system in CUBA was good.

I am glad to hear your speakers are working to your satisfaction. I should have some mast muster made crossovers for my 604 to install this weekend. I will be interested to hear how they sound.

I am very pleased with my 604 (sadly not Shindo though).


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[Jerome W]

Oh my god. I am so sorry to hear this. I was always under the impression that the medical system in CUBA was good.

I am glad to hear your speakers are working to your satisfaction. I should have some mast muster made crossovers for my 604 to install this weekend. I will be interested to hear how they sound.

I am very pleased with my 604 (sadly not Shindo though).


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Chris,

Would you post a pic of your 604 speakers please ?
First horn or Mantaray one ?

[Cucumber_jones]

Chris,

Would you post a pic of your 604 speakers please ?
First horn or Mantaray one ?

Here is a photo of the 604E in 612 cabinets the day I got them. They are now in a different room. This was temporary to see how they sounded.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160127/39f79960b025b4da5300a89b5cba5855.jpg


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[Jerome W]

I like the design of the front plate.
Which 604 driver do you use ?
Stunning dog BTW !
He seems to be an audiophile.

[Cucumber_jones]

I like the design of the front plate.
Which 604 driver do you use ?
Stunning dog BTW !
He seems to be an audiophile.

Ha, yes my dog Winston is a big music fan. He loves it when we play music - he actually listens!

Those are Altec 612 studio monitor cabinets with Aletc 604E drivers. They look like this.

http://www.audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=14729&stc=1

My speakers came from a recording studio where they were used for mastering records for many years. Prior to that they were used in a record pressing plant. These were very popular cabinets for studio mastering as see here.
http://www.audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=14730&stc=1http://www.audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=14731&stc=1

New crossover from werner jagusch will be installed this weekend.

[Jerome W]

That is very cool Chris !
Thanks a lot.

[Cucumber_jones]

14761

Crossover soon to be installed.

[Katoomer]

14761

Crossover soon to be installed.
Crossovers look sweet! I'll be over on Sunday morning for a listen. Make sure you have them installed and the espresso machine on!

[Cucumber_jones]

Sounds like a plan dale.

[Katoomer]

Any excuse for me to go for a drive!

[Cucumber_jones]

Drywall will be ready and waiting...

[Katoomer]

I thought you did that last weekend?

[Bongo]

Chris,
Those speakers are awesome! I can't believe that you found something like that - vintage cabinets and so much history. I'd really like to hear your system. I think that I missed details about your crossover. Who is making it for you?

Those casters are super practical - really useful. Fellow Shindo owner, Steve from Santa Fe, is coming over for a listen Friday afternoon. I moved my system into my living room because it is so superior to my listening room acoustically. It made me realize that I need to build wood platforms with casters for my speakers (and maybe one for my equipment table) to make the move easier and more secure when I want to have people over for listening sessions.

Looking forward to hearing more from you about your new babies.

The living room with furniture thrown aside:http://www.audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=14977&stc=1

[Loop4fun]

Craig, Be sure and share Steve's impressions. He has been my role model for some years in putting my system together. I almost went with the Pass 30.8's after Jack's review, but went with the WE 300s since that was my goal from day one. He did go with the 30.8s. Plus he will give great feedback.

[kev313]

Shindo 300b or Pass? How is that even a choice?! I don't mean that how you think. I'm sure that Pass is wonderful. But the two seem like they could not be more different.


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[Loop4fun]

Shindo 300b or Pass? How is that even a choice?! I don't mean that how you think. I'm sure that Pass is wonderful. But the two seem like they could not be more different.


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Kev, That's exactly why I went with the WE300B. But, Stephen moved from the GM70s to the Pass 30.8 and Jack Roberts also moved from his Wavac 300B with WE tubes to the Pass 30.8. Apparently the 30.8 is really special, but I've never heard it.

I also was worried if I waited, Shindo might either quit it's production or drastically raise the price based on what's happened with the scarcity of tubes. Not to mention price. I purchased a spare set of NOS 300B tubes from the early 60's that REALLY sound good, but I want to at least use the tubes that came with it until my warranty runs out. (Just in case) Those two tubes alone were more expensive than the Pass 30.8.

So I agree wholeheartedly with your comment which is why I went with them, but it was a choice Stephen made with an all Shindo system similar to mine. And I respect his opinion. I don't plan to ever change. These were my final destination amps. And, they are amazing.

[Cucumber_jones]

Chris,
Those speakers are awesome! I can't believe that you found something like that - vintage cabinets and so much history. I'd really like to hear your system. I think that I missed details about your crossover. Who is making it for you?

Those casters are super practical - really useful. Fellow Shindo owner, Steve from Santa Fe, is coming over for a listen Friday afternoon. I moved my system into my living room because it is so superior to my listening room acoustically. It made me realize that I need to build wood platforms with casters for my speakers (and maybe one for my equipment table) to make the move easier and more secure when I want to have people over for listening sessions.

Looking forward to hearing more from you about your new babies.

The living room with furniture thrown aside:http://www.audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=14977&stc=1

Thanks I am really happy with them. That photo is what I first got them and tried them in my main system. They are now in my second system (which is a work in progress). The casters are super helpful but the must detract from the sound in some way. I have however read that getting them off the ground is good so maybe the casters help!?!

The crossovers are from Werner jagush (mast mutter). Thy have really transformed the speakers. They are much more balanced now. I am quite shocked how good these are. Now I have a small glimpse at what the shindo 604s must be like.

Your photo did not work...

[kev313]

Kev, That's exactly why I went with the WE300B. But, Stephen moved from the GM70s to the Pass 30.8 and Jack Roberts also moved from his Wavac 300B with WE tubes to the Pass 30.8. Apparently the 30.8 is really special, but I've never heard it.

I also was worried if I waited, Shindo might either quit it's production or drastically raise the price based on what's happened with the scarcity of tubes. Not to mention price. I purchased a spare set of NOS 300B tubes from the early 60's that REALLY sound good, but I want to at least use the tubes that came with it until my warranty runs out. (Just in case) Those two tubes alone were more expensive than the Pass 30.8.

So I agree wholeheartedly with your comment which is why I went with them, but it was a choice Stephen made with an all Shindo system similar to mine. And I respect his opinion. I don't plan to ever change. These were my final destination amps. And, they are amazing.

I haven't heard the Pass, so I'm obviously not qualified to comment on the sound. I have, however, heard that several people in the Shindo group have commented favorably. Frankly, I'm suspicious. No one would listen to this if Roberts hadn't reviewed it. I have no idea why anyone who is happy with an established system would make a change in response to his reviews. His system transition over the years makes no sense to me at all. He is on the road to hifi hell as Peter Q would say. Bouncing from sound to sound, approach to approach, with no direction. No sense of goals or priorities. For the love of god he uses the headings "treble, midrange and bass" for his reviews! What is he listening for? HOW is he listening. His room! His speakers!! Problems abound.

At the end of the day, I am simply not a good audiophile. I recognize this. I enjoy building systems (not only an all Shindo system) as much as the next guy, but my approach is different. I suspect that one could replace Pass in this situation with probably anything. One hears a change in the zip, tizz and boom. One sees it is endorsed by jack. An improvement is assumed.

Again, maybe the Pass is actually better than a Shindo amp in an all Shindo system. I'm obviously suspicious. Of at least the claim, but also the listening habits and priorities of one making the claim.

I realize that my thoughts here aren't fully flushed out. Hopefully I can do that in the future. Note that this has nothing to do with support of an all Shindo only approach. No. This is something more fundamental as an approach to the hobby and listening.


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[Loop4fun]

You are better at putting things into an intended context than I, and I agree with you. I wanted the all Shindo synergy and I am not interested in trying to modify this and that for incremental changes that I really couldn't probably tell whether better or not. Stephen. on the other hand, has been very Shindo consistent for a long time. It surprised me when he moved to the Pass. I don't enjoy and don't have the patience to A/B equipment.

I have faith in what I've heard at Matt's, and don't want to get off that track. Plus he has always taken good care of me. The Giscours, WE 300b, with the PL are my final system for this lifetime. Sources may change slightly. But, for now, I'm happy with them, too.

If I make any changes, it will be to the room layout. Not equipment.

I'm pretty much in line with your perspective.

[Bongo]

I'm looking forward to hearing Stephen's system soon. He still has field coil PLs, the 301, and the Giscours (and a Mr. T). We scheduled a listening session at his house for this Friday, but it's postponed because he decided to change his setup.

He came to my house for a listen last Friday. I'd moved the equipment to my living room which is about 25'x40'. I never got things dialed in and later realized that I needed to replace the Haut Brion's 6AW8A tubes - one was microphonic and ringing with no music playing. However, Stephen actually heard how the ringing affected the music. He described it as a bloom. He didn't know about the tube problem. I really couldn't discern it in the music. Good ears.

After he left, I replaced the tubes and nixed the ring/bloom. This cleaned up the sound noticeably. Shindo gear sounds so nice that it can be easy to overlook subtle but significant artifacts when they happen.

Still, the sound in the big room was rich and atmospheric since the speakers had room to breathe. Stephen was intrigued and decided to try the same, so he postponed the listening session until he gets things set. Knowing him, I'm sure that the X 30.8 is a wonderful amp.

Now my system is back in the listening room, the 604's eight feet apart (drivers on center) and toed in 15 degrees or so. It's more of a near field thing, and the 604's are good at this. Things are more focused than ever and the HB gives them wonderful impact in the midrange and low frequencies. Low level listening is really a pleasure too. Stephen loaned my his Mr. T. I haven't AB'd things much (against my wiremold strip), but it seems to light the sound up a bit and also give a bit more impact while making things sound a more effortless.

[Walter]

http://www.hifido.co.jp/KW/G0202--/P/A50/E/0-50/S0/M0/C16-03390-73445-00/ (http://www.hifido.co.jp/KW/G0202--/P/A50/E/0-50/S0/M0/C16-03390-73445-00/)

http://www.hifido.co.jp/photo/16/734/73445/a.jpg

[jazzmatazz]

Had a great time at Craig's listening to his 604's. Although there was a tube issue Craig addressed in his last post on this thread, I was very taken with the particular magic of these speakers. They effortlessly filled a large room with the typically-hard-to-nail-down but immersive Shindo sound. They were coherent and involving in a way those who own Shindo speakers/gear know so well. It was a great pleasure.

A word to Bill about my letting a non-Shindo amp into my all Shindo system: I was leaning towards going for the 300B Ltd Shindo amplifier for some time and tried the Pass XA30.8 as a lark, honestly never thinking I would keep it (I got a great deal and knew I could pass it on (ok pun intended). But the reason I even tried it is: I knew I could get more out of my Petite Latours in the bass department. I knew because once when my GM 70's were waiting for a tube replacement I inserted a 40W solid state amp called a Studio IV that I had kicking around. It took a hold of the bass in a completely new and gripping way. I've heard the 300B Ltd. does this as well. Anyway, that's what led me to try the Pass in the first place, thinking I could get that bass presence and control along with some of the GM 70's SE magic (according to Jack R.). Does the Pass do everything the GM 70's did and more? No, I have given up a degree of ambient air around acoustic instruments. But my hunch is your 300B Ltd. has all the ambient air and bass presence/control that one could ask for. If I take another step on my audio journey, it will be in that direction I'm sure. Right now I'm still enthralled with my heretic Shindo/Pass synergy.

[joeinid]

The "little" Pass amps are great. So glad you are happy. I miss my XA60.5's and still want to try the 60.8's at some point.

So much gear, so little time (or money actually :)).

[Jerome W]

Had a great time at Craig's listening to his 604's. Although there was a tube issue Craig addressed in his last post on this thread, I was very taken with the particular magic of these speakers. They effortlessly filled a large room with the typically-hard-to-nail-down but immersive Shindo sound. They were coherent and involving in a way those who own Shindo speakers/gear know so well. It was a great pleasure.

A word to Bill about my letting a non-Shindo amp into my all Shindo system: I was leaning towards going for the 300B Ltd Shindo amplifier for some time and tried the Pass XA30.8 as a lark, honestly never thinking I would keep it (I got a great deal and knew I could pass it on (ok pun intended). But the reason I even tried it is: I knew I could get more out of my Petite Latours in the bass department. I knew because once when my GM 70's were waiting for a tube replacement I inserted a 40W solid state amp called a Studio IV that I had kicking around. It took a hold of the bass in a completely new and gripping way. I've heard the 300B Ltd. does this as well. Anyway, that's what led me to try the Pass in the first place, thinking I could get that bass presence and control along with some of the GM 70's SE magic (according to Jack R.). Does the Pass do everything the GM 70's did and more? No, I have given up a degree of ambient air around acoustic instruments. But my hunch is your 300B Ltd. has all the ambient air and bass presence/control that one could ask for. If I take another step on my audio journey, it will be in that direction I'm sure. Right now I'm still enthralled with my heretic Shindo/Pass synergy.

Altec drivers are not different from most drivers : they will respond very differently in the bass with a good SS amp compared to tubes. That is the obvious advantage of SS amps over tubes, and it applies also to HE drivers : the bass is tighter, more controlled and with better dynamics with SS.
That is why I keep the Nagra MSA with my Altec speakers.

[Walter]

Theres not only one class of Altec drivers. Altec has build drivers that were different in many ways due to the fact that they have a long production history.
To achieve a high quality in bass with tubes may be more complex and a little more effort than with SS, but the qualities that are achievable are much more worth than that achievable with SS. Its not comparable in any ways.

[Bongo]

Stephen's system is really impressive. The Giscours and X30.8 pair very well in a hybrid way that you might expect - smooth, controlled, detailed. He also has Townshend super tweeters sitting on his Petite Latour field coils, and this contributed to an uncanny sense of space and atmosphere on certain recordings. I'll not soon forget the startling texture and tone of the vintage Starker chello record he spun on his Shindo 301 TT. Never heard anything like it.

My own 604's are now finally broken in and showing their own considerable abilities. After two years of the Haut Brion being in repair or not having the right speakers, and recently having burned in a new set of tubes, I'm finally able to hear what it's capable of. It's a wonderful match for the 604's, which convey amazing detail and a huge sound field, but also incredible tone and liquidity. The Milt Jackson's vibraphone on his recording of "These Foolish Things" is so realistic and lit from within - it really sounds like he's in the room.

[kev313]

Here you go. Horn search solved!

https://13audio.com/comission-build/



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