How do you select a turntable? What is the process?

[Boogieman]

Sorry in advance for the abstract question.

Don't care so much for specific recommendations, as our tastes and systems will differ. But I am interested in the process of how to select a high end turntable ($10-$15K), considering there are so many manufacturers, plus various combos of phono stages, arms, and cartridges. How do you disentangle the latter components from the sound of table itself?

Cheers!

[Petro85]

its very tough.lol. you really have to go listen and find whats right for you, and what works with your gear. ive owned 5 vpi tables and almost bought a 6th just to find out they were not what i was looking for. ive bought and sold several phonostages and pres with internal phonos. i drove around for 6 month listening to cartridges. took me 15 years to be very happy with both my table and cartridge. and not looking to upgrade anymore...... maybe. lol.
i wont recommend anything as you can find a billion recommendations in this forum alone.
its really a very personal matter and you must either take the time to find what right for you, or just buy and sell until you come across "the keeper" no one can truely recommend what the right table for you. with your budget you should be able to find something very nice.

[Boogieman]

its very tough.lol. you really have to go listen and find whats right for you, and what works with your gear. ive owned 5 vpi tables and almost bought a 6th just to find out they were not what i was looking for. ive bought and sold several phonostages and pres with internal phonos. i drove around for 6 month listening to cartridges. took me 15 years to be very happy with both my table and cartridge. and not looking to upgrade anymore...... maybe. lol.
i wont recommend anything as you can find a billion recommendations in this forum alone.
its really a very personal matter and you must either take the time to find what right for you, or just buy and sell until you come across "the keeper" no one can truely recommend what the right table for you. with your budget you should be able to find something very nice.

Thank you. Buying, trying, and selling may be the way to go.

[Mike]

Boogieman - unless its a simple table like a REGA RP3, buying, trying and selling a table is a major PITA. Start with a budget for table, arm and cart and we can try to give you some suggestions.

[Boogieman]

Thanks, Mike. My strategy is to spend closer to $15K on the table, and the absolute minimum possible on the cartridge and arm that will work with the table. In the next year, I can fairly easily upgrade the latter 2 to similar level as the table, to stay within budget.

[Mike]

Thanks, Mike. My strategy is to spend closer to $15K on the table, and the absolute minimum possible on the cartridge and arm that will work with the table. In the next year, I can fairly easily upgrade the latter 2 to similar level as the table, to stay within budget.

Can you tell me a little bit more about the rest of your system?

[asiufy]

And what kind of music you hear?


alexandre

[cmalak]

Do you have any local high end audio dealers that have turntables on demo?

[Petro85]

you know $15k is a huge turntable budget and you can get an off the hook good table for less than that new including the awesome vpi hrx a personal favorite of mine, or a classic 3 for alot less than that.or even a beautiful amg which would be a little more than that. but if your dead set on the most you can get for that money look at this baby, i bet $15k gets this bought. and a couple thou for a new ortofon cadenza bronze or black would be a great start.
this is about the best table i can think of for under $20k right now. and this is a great deal .its over $30k new.
https://app.audiogon.com/listings/turntables-spiral-groove-sg1-1-the-finest-in-analog-2014-07-23-analog-48073-royal-oak-mi

[CPP]

Boogie, Do you have or have you ever owned a turntable ?Turntables are so dependent on set up and compatibility with the tone arm, the cartridge and the pre-amp or stand alone phono pre-amp that a good table can sound horrid if not matched or setup correctly. Sure one cab spend $15k but unless you compare a say $1,000 or 5,000 table to a $15k table you will never know how good some lower priced tables are. Sure $15k tables look cool, have a lot of quality pretty materials in the build but looks alone does not make sound. I recommend, go listen and compare.

And like Mike noted ; Can you tell us a little bit more about the rest of your system? amp section or AVR, or pre-amp

[asindc]

Go listen to as many TT setups as possible and, if you are so inclined, take notes about what cartridges and tonearms are set up with what tables, how they differed in sound, ask the dealer/presenter/owner how easy/difficult it is setup, read up on the reputation of the companies, and ask about warranty service. You might find that a TT in the $5K range more than suits your needs and might allow you to splurge on a cartridge, which is where you get the most variance in sound among vinyl components, IMO, and a phono pre. Speaking of which, do not scrimp on the phono preamp. If you don't choose a phono pre that is up to the task, it will be a choke point and you'll be wasting the potential of the rest of your vinyl rig.

[Boogieman]

Appreciate the insights. The system is MBL 101 E driven by Bryston amps and CAT preamp, which has killer phono stage. I listen mostly to rock.

As I mentioned, I am interested in the process, as our tastes will vary. Also, as I mentioned, my strategy is to get the best table I can at this time. The other components will be upgraded to the level of the table in due time.

[Boogieman]

Out of curiosity, have people ranked tables on the continuum of euphonic to brutally honest/ analytic? I would want something in between.

[CPP]

Out of curiosity, have people ranked tables on the continuum of euphonic to brutally honest/ analytic? I would want something in between.

I have never heard or seen a ranking since there are TT that are being modified like the old Garrard 301 and 401 that rival todays $10K + tables , not to mention different cartridges can influence the tonal quality of even the best under $500 TT system.

[BobM]

IMO Boogie, a decent $5-6K table will get you 95% of the way there. Or closer if you buy one used at that price point. After that it's mostly about what looks good to your eye and style (classic, modern, acrylic, massive, etc.). The biggest gains after that point are to bre made in the phono stage and the cartridge matching with the arm.

[annapolis Raider]

IMHO Boogie, you'd be better served by starting off down the Analog trail at a lower level. As others have mentioned, there are some great values at the 5 to 6k price range. Any of these tables can be easily sold at a later date as your personal tastes develop. Starting off with a 15k turntable is a little like giving an 18 year old a 911 as his first car......you don't want to end up around a tree, lol.

[Dpod4]

I have the AMG v12 and the Spiral Groove SG1.1 and the Clearaudio Innovation Wood. All can be had for $16k or less (used for first two and new for innovation). Biggest bang for the buck is Clearaudio which is upgrade able (can add a second arm and can buy the master reference bottom platter). The prettiest including the sound is the AMG v12. The highest performing most brilliantly engineered (IMHO) is the SG 1.1. I could happily live with any one of them. Bigger differences occur based on cartridge, cable, isolation, and phono stage.

[Mike]

Out of curiosity, have people ranked tables on the continuum of euphonic to brutally honest/ analytic? I would want something in between.

I have a VPI Classic 3 with a Ortofon Cadenza Bronze.

7101

And a Kronos Sparta with a Benz Micro LP-S (thinking about getting a ZYX Universe II).

7102

To answer your question, its all about a synergy between the table, arm, cart - and let's not forget, the phonostage. I use a ARC REF2SE with upgraded tubes. In your budget, I would consider the AMG V12 with a Benz Micro LP-S or a VPI Classic 3 with a Ortofon or Lyra cart (and spend the rest on records).

I'm presuming you already have a phonostage? If the $16K needs to include the phonostage, then I would go with a VPI Classic 3, Ortofon Cadenza Black and a Manley Chinook or Zesto phonostage.

[Dpod4]

I have a VPI Classic 3 with a Ortofon Cadenza Bronze.

7101

And a Kronos Sparta with a Benz Micro LP-S (thinking about getting a ZYX Universe II).

7102

To answer your question, its all about a synergy between the table, arm, cart - and let's not forget, the phonostage. I use a ARC REF2SE with upgraded tubes. In your budget, I would consider the AMG V12 with a Benz Micro LP-S or a VPI Classic 3 with a Ortofon or Lyra cart (and spend the rest on records).

I'm presuming you already have a phonostage? If the $16K needs to include the phonostage, then I would go with a VPI Classic 3, Ortofon Cadenza Black and a Manley Chinook or Zesto phonostage.

I can attest to wonderful synergy of Benz LP-S and AMG v12 - with arc ref2se if is warm transparent and wide open.

[highEndguy]

I can attest to wonderful synergy of Benz LP-S and AMG v12 - with arc ref2se if is warm transparent and wide open.

New toy , Mike ?
Nice !!!!
How's the sound with your LPS?

[Mike]

New toy , Mike ?
Nice !!!!
How's the sound with your LPS?

Not sure yet. Need to get my new speakers to test it. ;)


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[FlexibleAudio]

I have the AMG v12 and the Spiral Groove SG1.1 and the Clearaudio Innovation Wood. All can be had for $16k or less (used for first two and new for innovation). Biggest bang for the buck is Clearaudio which is upgrade able (can add a second arm and can buy the master reference bottom platter). The prettiest including the sound is the AMG v12. The highest performing most brilliantly engineered (IMHO) is the SG 1.1. I could happily live with any one of them. Bigger differences occur based on cartridge, cable, isolation, and phono stage.

Dpod,

I would love to hear more detail on how the AMG and SG 1.1 compare....(hope I am not steeling the thread).

[FlexibleAudio]

Not sure yet. Need to get my new speakers to test it. ;)


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Are we talking D5's?????? I would love to hear about the Sparta as much as the LPS. Glad to see you pulled the trigger.

[Mike]

Are we talking D5's?????? I would love to hear about the Sparta as much as the LPS. Glad to see you pulled the trigger.

Not sure. Still scheduled to audition them August 21.

[Dpod4]

Dpod,

I would love to hear more detail on how the AMG and SG 1.1 compare....(hope I am not steeling the thread).

AMG is more romantic sounding (might be the Benz cartridge) - the spiral groove is perfectly resolving ... Every note extracted and a huge soundstage. Total extension and everything comes thru (might be the goldfinger cartridge).

[Petro85]

hey boogieman ive heard and love and dreamed about the internal phonostage in cat preamps. they are phenomenal its a great start. ive heard the phonostage run several tables and it can run with just about anythigng but it really shined with the grado statement and reference cartridges. like they were made for each other. my favorite combo was a grado statement on a vpi tnt hot rod 6 which would now be the vpi hrx. this was a setup made in heaven. search them out im sure you can get into that setup under your total budget. call Jeff at a/v solutions. hes a dealer for both.
great choice and one of my favorite preamps of alltime.

[VT Skier]

I agree with most of the comments (CA Inno Wood owner),and definitely with Steve and Mike (that setting up and breaking down TTs is a PITA). Of course I'm also not a DIY person, and if you are, more power to you.

If you're interested in used and live anywhere near David Michael Audio (Steve's link) or Bill Parrish (link below) or Jay (second link below), and can get the table, arm and cartridge set up included in the purchase price, that's what I would do. Bill and Jay are nice guys with lots of analog experience, and prices for used turntables, especially at the top of the food chain where you're shopping, can be crazy.

If you want new, I've found Jeff Whitlock, a sponsor here (third link below), to be unbelievably generous with his time and exceedingly knowledgeable in all things analog. Turntables are a rabbit hole, and having a guide you trust can make all the difference.

Brinkmann Audio Balance with 12.1 tonearm loaded to the max, latest - Reduced!!! | Turntables | Long Valley, New Jersey 07853 | AudiogoN - The High-end Audio Community (http://app.audiogon.com/listings/turntables-brinkmann-audio-balance-with-12-1-tonearm-loaded-to-the-max-latest-reduced-2014-08-04-analog-07853-long-valley-nj)

BRINKMANN OASIS TABLE w/ GRAHAM SUPREME ARM, HEAR PHENOMENAL MUSIC FROM YOUR FAVORITE LPs! | Turntables | Carlsbad, 92010 | AudiogoN - The High-end Audio Community (http://app.audiogon.com/listings/turntables-brinkmann-oasis-table-w-graham-supreme-arm-hear-phenomenal-music-from-your-favorite-lps-2014-07-14-analog-92010-carlsbad-ca)

Turntables Phono Cartridges - A/v Solutions (http://www.avsolutionsca.com/)

[KeithR]

Hate to drift from the crowd, but to be honest you need to assess more things than folks have mentioned.

You need to figure out if you want direct drive or a belt-driven table. You need to hear a light mass vs heavy mass setup (Rega vs VPI for example). And you need to hear a restored Garrard/Thorens as well as a modern table. You also need to figure out what arm works best for you (ie. do you mind the PITA uni-pivots).

Don't rush into a 15k setup due to others opinion is my best recommendation.

[Dpod4]

The Spiral Groove sg1.1 listed on audiogon by David Michael audio (great folks I have dealt with them...they are in audio biz for all the right reasons)...is a smoking deal on a 36k kit from a reputable dealer. It is end game level sonics and quality. Pitch stability of direct drive, prat of suspended, inky black depths of mass unsuspended. And the head of spiral groove is consumer focused always willing to help. He has given me exceptional service. Very personal and committed to his products. My local dealer who set up all my tables says it doesn't get better than Alan Perkins and the SG 1.1.

[BobM]

This one looks nice too ...

https://app.audiogon.com/listings/turntables-triangle-art-signature-turntable-revolutionary-metal-composite-design-gorgeous-a-2014-08-01-analog-46614-south-bend-in

[asiufy]

Hate to drift from the crowd, but to be honest you need to assess more things than folks have mentioned.

You need to figure out if you want direct drive or a belt-driven table. You need to hear a light mass vs heavy mass setup (Rega vs VPI for example). And you need to hear a restored Garrard/Thorens as well as a modern table. You also need to figure out what arm works best for you (ie. do you mind the PITA uni-pivots).

Don't rush into a 15k setup due to others opinion is my best recommendation.

Keith, I guess that's exactly what the OP asked for... I mean, when he talked about "what's the process"...
These are some of the variables you'll find in the turntable world, and you'll need to find the combination that pleases you. It's like speakers, with lots of variety (sealed box, open baffle, ported, paper cones, aluminum cones, etc.)
With that said, I think a "regular", belt-driven, heavy mass, non-suspended table, with also a regular arm (pivoted) will work as a start. Let's not forget he'll be able to "fine tune" the sound further with his choice of cartridge. The table, at this point, must not interfere too much.


alexandre

[highEndguy]

VPI classic +Lyra+REFPHONO2 = :)

[Boogieman]

Appreciate all the responses! Does anyone have a sense how much sonic difference the arm and the cartridge will make vs. the table?

[Boogieman]

IMHO Boogie, you'd be better served by starting off down the Analog trail at a lower level. As others have mentioned, there are some great values at the 5 to 6k price range. Any of these tables can be easily sold at a later date as your personal tastes develop. Starting off with a 15k turntable is a little like giving an 18 year old a 911 as his first car......you don't want to end up around a tree, lol.

Thanks. That's great advice. I know myself, and as soon as I settle in with a piece of gear I start itching to make things better. There is a Porsche driving school in Alabama that solves this problem for sports cars: https://www.porschedriving.com/sports-driving.aspx

And I would definitely have an experienced pro help with the table setup.

[Boogieman]

Can someone please recommend a good set of question to help make a decision and to help overcome the influence of a good salesman?

[Petro85]

to me the arm and cart are the table. find a good sturdy table and put a great arm and cart on it is always the way id prefer to go. look at the table in my sig and go to the website and read about it a little. its the ugly duckling but the read an theories are very interesting .
im not saying to buy one im just saying its good bit of info to learn.

from your above post id say call the honest and most knowledgeable turntable guy i know Jeff at a/v solutions. he wil at least make you a little smarter while table shopping

[Boogieman]

I have a VPI Classic 3 with a Ortofon Cadenza Bronze.

7101

And a Kronos Sparta with a Benz Micro LP-S (thinking about getting a ZYX Universe II).

7102

To answer your question, its all about a synergy between the table, arm, cart - and let's not forget, the phonostage. I use a ARC REF2SE with upgraded tubes. In your budget, I would consider the AMG V12 with a Benz Micro LP-S or a VPI Classic 3 with a Ortofon or Lyra cart (and spend the rest on records).

I'm presuming you already have a phonostage? If the $16K needs to include the phonostage, then I would go with a VPI Classic 3, Ortofon Cadenza Black and a Manley Chinook or Zesto phonostage.


Thanks. I have heard the AMG a couple of times. It is the most natural sounding product, however I am not sure if it were the setup, but it seemed lack explosiveness. Ohterwise it would make it to the shortlist. Also, I have found Lyra cartridges overly detailed for my taste.

How does the VPI compare to the Kronos?

[Dpod4]

Thanks. I have heard the AMG a couple of times. It is the most natural sounding product, however I am not sure if it were the setup, but it seemed lack explosiveness. Ohterwise it would make it to the shortlist. Also, I have found Lyra cartridges overly detailed for my taste.

How does the VPI compare to the Kronos?

Dynamics/explosiveness is usually tied to good set up on a good cartridge. My Benz LPS on my AMG doubled in dynamics and extension when someone good set it up. Having said that, the spiral groove is a more dynamic tell-all table.

[Petro85]

Dynamics/explosiveness is usually tied to good set up on a good cartridge. My Benz LPS on my AMG doubled in dynamics and extension when someone good set it up. Having said that, the spiral groove is a more dynamic tell-all table.
dont you have a goldfinger statement on your sg1.1?? that could help with the tell tale sound and dynamics.:D. lol have you experimented with your cartridges back and fourth on your many tables?? i would not be able to help myself and would move them around every week.

[MrAcoustat]

its very tough.lol. you really have to go listen and find whats right for you, and what works with your gear. ive owned 5 vpi tables and almost bought a 6th just to find out they were not what i was looking for. ive bought and sold several phonostages and pres with internal phonos. i drove around for 6 month listening to cartridges. took me 15 years to be very happy with both my table and cartridge. and not looking to upgrade anymore...... maybe. lol.
i wont recommend anything as you can find a billion recommendations in this forum alone.
its really a very personal matter and you must either take the time to find what right for you, or just buy and sell until you come across "the keeper" no one can truely recommend what the right table for you. with your budget you should be able to find something very nice.

Boogieman Steve will not recommend anything BUT after searching 15 years i think that his choice should be YOUR first choice, everything is in his signature unless he is deaf it should be a pretty good choice, as for me i'm sorry I have been pro cd since 1983. :)

PS: Some will say that i am deaf.:)

[CPP]

Thanks. I have heard the AMG a couple of times. It is the most natural sounding product, however I am not sure if it were the setup, but it seemed lack explosiveness. Ohterwise it would make it to the shortlist. Also, I have found Lyra cartridges overly detailed for my taste.

How does the VPI compare to the Kronos?

I've had numerous TT (VPI, Oracle, SME, Brinkman) at my home for comparison to my current TT setup and I have yet to find anything that changes the overall sound I get from my current setup except a cartridge, a Benz Micro S Class.

Like a lot of us have noted, it;s not just the turntable.. You need to ensure your cartridge is compatible with your phone stage ( the input impedance and the output voltage of the cartridge and how that matches to the phono stage. I don't care how expensive a TT you have, a poorly matched cartridge to phono stage will sound no better than a cheap $200 kiddy TT.

Here's a fun link on turntables First Turntable Buying Guide | The Art of Manliness (http://www.artofmanliness.com/2012/11/09/a-beginners-guide-to-buying-your-first-turntable/)

[Dpod4]

dont you have a goldfinger statement on your sg1.1?? that could help with the tell tale sound and dynamics.:D. lol have you experimented with your cartridges back and fourth on your many tables?? i would not be able to help myself and would move them around every week.

I wish I could but I paid $$ to have them perfectly mounted and aligned. Don't want to mess with the sound. Yes the Goldfinger accounts for a lot of the detail and dynamics - had it on my innovation wood. I think after a certain price point all the tables sound awesome and the cartridge makes a much bigger difference.

[Dpod4]

I have a friend who has a minty Avid Actus Reference SP with Triplanar arm. Close to a $40k setup. He will sell them for $17k. A steal. If I didn't have 3 TT I would write a check today. Anyone interested send me a PM.

[Steve]

IMO it's all about the cart. If the table fundamentals are right, the table is quiet & isolated & you haven't skimped on the all important phono cable, then pump the $$ into the cart. If your phono pre-amp can, then a better cart will deliver the resolution & dynamic range.

Just like a DAC, if implemented right, the cart will make all the difference. I will emphasise, right. The right implementation does not have to mean an over the top table that NASA engineered & built to withstand the sensitivities of a seismic event.

Clearaudio Goldfinger Statement lives here and I have no desire to change a thing! So yes, the cart is worth more than the stock MT10 that ploughs it. Notwithstanding, I have given attention to isolation plus the Furutech Flux Silver Arrows delivers to a synergistic C1000T with TFK ECC803S under its hood.

7169
7170
7171

Prior to upgrading to the GFS, I owned a Goldfinger V2 & a DaVinci V2. Also exceptional carts.

[Mike]

IMO it's all about the cart. If the table fundamentals are right, the table is quiet & isolated & you haven't skimped on the all important phono cable, then pump the $$ into the cart. If your phono pre-amp can, then a better cart will deliver the resolution & dynamic range.

Just like a DAC, if implemented right, the cart will make all the difference. I will emphasise, right. The right implementation does not have to mean an over the top table that NASA engineered & built to withstand the sensitivities of a seismic event.

Clearaudio Goldfinger Statement lives here and I have no desire to change a thing!

7169
7170
7171

Prior to upgrading to the GFS, I owned also owned a Goldfinger V2 & a DaVinci V2. Also exceptional carts.

Beautiful!

[CPP]

IMO it's all about the cart.


7169
7170
7171

.

+2 Yep

Cool photo

[Frank]

Gorgeous:heart:

Great pics too:coolyeah:

Frank

[AVjim]

You can't go wrong with the Linn LP-12 and at 12-15k it will be close to there upper end excluding the cart . Plus the linn upgrade path is an expeiamce all to it's own ;)

[Dpod4]

Goldfinger rocks!!!