Call me Julot, the ICOS guy

[Julot]

Hi everyone,

So glad to find a friendly audio forum!

I'm Julien, I live in Paris, France, and I'm trying to promote a little known French brand named ICOS, which I think is awesome (of course I do!). Icos has been making uncompromising systems since 1973 but stays on a local, artisanal scale, and I'm thinking we should spread the delights it delivers to a larger audience.

I have two questions in mind when joining the forum:

1/ Can any one help me find relevant business data, in the US or Europe? I can't seem to find macro (market size and potential, big trends) or micro (profit and business models, sales, etc.) information on high end audio, which makes it difficult to find investors, no matter how enthusiast they are when they listen to the product (indeed so far, most people I contacted for investing ended up buying a system).
Maybe someone knows a source, or some of the retailers or manufacturers on this forum would be willing to share some of what they know with a competitor to small and far away to be real competition?
I assume Industry News would be the right forum to post that question in?

2/ This is clearly a more classic search on this forum: what's the best digital source? My business model rests on the listening experience and we at Icos haven't designed a server or streamer yet (only CDs, DACs and whole systems, especially with active amplification), so in the meantime we are kind of looking for the perfect companion to our system.

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[Mike]

Welcome Julot. I can answer your second question. The Lumin Network Music Player.

[Julot]

Thanks, Mike. I knew you would say that, having browsed the forum (and the web) a bit. You do make quite the exciting case for it.

[Julot]

Where is the right place to continue that discussion? (the one about the digital source)

I haven't listened to the Lumin yet (only one retailer in France...) but one problem I have with it (or a Linn DS), on paper, is that I can't use the DAC inside for anything else (say, my bluray player, etc.), which is why one reason I'm contemplating alternatives such as Antipodes music servers (couldn't find anything on this forum about them, I sure like what they say on their website), or some combo with the SOtM sMS-100 for example.

The other reason being, we do our own converter (the Dactablette 4), and it does what you say the Lumin does: make digital sound as good as vinyl, so we'd like to use it, all the more since it includes/is also a stand for the digital source.

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[Mike]

Thanks, Mike. I knew you would say that, having browsed the forum (and the web) a bit. You do make quite the exciting case for it.

Well...admittedly, it took others buying it before the collective believed me! :). That's ok, I don't mind being the audio guinea pig. I love finding great audio values like the Lumin, Classe CP800, Pass XP15, etc.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Sir Lemon]

Hey Julot, welcome to the forum!


Given the amount of hype surrounding the Lumin streamer, you should probably take a step back and look at different options (not contesting the merits of the Lumin player, just remarking the fact that hype usually follows a Gaussian curve and you don't want to step in at the top :)), maybe look closer (TotalDac came out with an interesting server recently, Pathos Musiteca is quite nice as well), or maybe at a top notch ODM that builds such custom devices for others and could do the same for you (Rockna/Audiobyte).

ps. I've always found your gear quite appealing, your website not so much. :)

[Julot]

Thanks! I agree, the website is next on my list. Just after selling some of the new systems we aren't done developing... Notice how I did not actually communicate the address ;-)

[Sir Lemon]

;)

Indeed, the German site is somewhat better, still not great. Personally, I dislike the fact that opening a product page lands the full catalog on the same page. I do prefer the pages where the pictures of the products are minimized and grouped together in a separate window within the page, and you can maximize them in the same page if you so chose, but can open them in a different one as well. Also, I like the manufacturers who also put up pictures with the internals of their products, can be fairly illuminating for those of us that understand what they're looking at. :)

[Julot]

Thanks for the feedback, you're very obviously right.

As for the inside of our machines, you know that they're ridiculously simple, don't you? But the point is taken, and there will be more, and better pictures.

Here's the entry level CD-player:
4845
Here the top stereo amplifier (I know, real pictures will come soon).
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[Petro85]

welcome to the shark Julot!!!:audiophile:

[Sir Lemon]

Thanks for the feedback, you're very obviously right.

As for the inside of our machines, you know that they're ridiculously simple, don't you? But the point is taken, and there will be more, and better pictures.

Here's the entry level CD-player:
4845
Here the top stereo amplifier (I know, real pictures will come soon).
4846
No, Thank you! For your very open attitude. :)

I like simple because it leaves very little room for mystification and absurd literature, both of which are all too common in the high end ecosystem.

[the professor]

Welcome to AS!

If you want a great streamer that you can use the DAC with other digital inputs. Try the Naim NDS/555PS. It's very very good. Just 3 times the price of the Lumin here in the USA.

[Julot]

Thanks. You don't make it sound like such a good deal, though.

Anyone has experience with Antipodes? Their website makes me curious and I find their discourse makes a lot of sense. Plus, you know, they actually have one...

[the professor]

True. Here in the USA the NDS/555PS is the same price as the Linn Klimax DS. My guess is that over in Europe there isn't as much of a difference in price with the Lumin, but I have no knowledge either way.

All three streamers are very very good. I still own all three, but am selling the Naim and Linn. The Lumin sound wise sort of sits in the middle between the Naim and Linn which is perfect for me.


Thanks. You don't make it sound like such a good deal, though.

Anyone has experience with Antipodes? Their website makes me curious and I find their discourse makes a lot of sense. Plus, you know, they actually have one...

[Julot]

Indeed here in France the Naim is 9350€ vs 6000€ for the Lumin.

[NorthStar]

Salut Julien, et
----------- http://www.fortfiends.net/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/GroupWelcome.gif

C'est bien d'avoir des Parisiens dans l'aquarium. :cool: ...Ca fait des courants d'eau de diversification.

Bienvenu,
Robert

[sharkmouth]

Hey Julien, welcome to the shark!

[Toobs]

:hi:Julien
Welcome to the forum:woot::audiophile::audiophile:

[cmalak]

Julien (Julot)...Bienvenu a l'Audioshark :hi:

As for the list of brands that have produced servers/streamers that have received some critical recognition include:

1) Meridian
2) SOtM
3) Aurender
4) Lumin
5) TotalDAC
6) Weiss
7) Sony
8) Linn
9) Baetis

Some good sources for reviews of mostly digital equipment (DACs, streamers, media servers, CDs, SACDs, etc...): audiostream.com, computeraudiophile.com, digitalaudioreview.net

Hope this helps.

[socfan12]

I've just heard of the Ayon S5 that has garnered some poz reviews as well. A 2 chasis, tubed based streamer. Interesting stuff.

[Julot]

Trying the Ayon on Monday, vs Lumin...

[Julot]

Trying this one on Monday, vs Lumin...

[socfan12]

Please post back impressions, Julot, and welcome to AS!:hi:

[Sir Lemon]

I would like to add two more names to the above list:

DigiBit Aria
Wadax Hermes

[Julot]

I've just heard of the Ayon S5 that has garnered some poz reviews as well. A 2 chasis, tubed based streamer. Interesting stuff.

By the way, what's an A2 chassis, and why would you need tubes to process a digital signal?

[socfan12]

Apologies, should have been clearer. It's a 2 box (chasis) design, one for power supply and another for the DAC/pre. I believe tubes are used for the output stages.

You can read more about it here (http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue67/ayon_s5.htm).

[Julot]

It didn't go well. I spend over two hours at the store, but the buy never got his Lumin to work (couldn't see it from the iPad...). I listened to Ayon variations and none was quite convincing -- I'll write up in the Ayon board.

[Julot]

I didn't find said Ayon board, so I suppose I might as well write up here.

The room was underground, 40ish sqm, "regular" furniture, a big metal shelf with tons of heavy electronics and many loudspeakers.

The amplifier was an Airtight ATM-4 and the speakers were Tannoy Kensington GR.

The guy wanted me to listen to the combination of the NW-T streamer and Stealth DAC before (A 10+k€ source, seen from here). After many difficulties actually getting the NT-W to read whatever we were sending its way (we tried back and front USB and ethernet NAS, to apparently random results), we listened to that combination a little with some music I brought:
Dianne Reeves' New Morning live (CD format, Blue Note)
Schubert's Winterreise by S. Richter and P. Schreier (Philips, CD format)
Mozart's Mass in C by Louis Langrée (Erato, CD Format)
Jonas Kaufman's Wagner Recital (24/96 format, Decca)

The whole setup (A 30k system) did not quite convince me. The whole thing was impressive for sure, and not too tiring, but it was weird and boring. Weird because of a strange emphasis on vocal frequencies that made you feel like you were inside Diana Krall's mouth or pressed against Dianne Reeves bosom -- limited high harmonics, no feeling of the whole column of air the singer moves. Boring because the rhythm wasn't there.

On the plus side, there was almost no "sound" box, the scene was definitely larger than the speakers (you could still distinctly hear two sources, but few systems escape that problem, and it depends a lot on the room and on the placement of the speakers...). And the whole thing was very fast.

By comparison, I found the S3 to be more musical and natural. The price is the same as the Lumin (6,000€ here). The better spectral balance let every instrument play its part and let the structure of the music shine. The rhytm was still off, and there was a much smaller scene and some box sound. Using the outer DAC with the S3 brought back the issues from the NW-T, though to a lesser extent and with clearer sound. Still, if I had to chose between the two, I would take the S3 and maybe buy a few good meals with the differece.

The 24/96 file sounded much better, of course, but did not fix the spectral and rhythm issues.

Out of curiosity, I also connected my MacBook Pro (using Audirvana Plus as a player) to the Ayon Stealth DAC with a decent USB cable, and the results don't compare. It's comparatively poor sound, poor spatial representation.

To my ears, this system was no match in terms of musicality for the combination of Akurate DS (connected to a SSD NAS) + Euphya Alliance 280 and Power Supply + Fostex GX 103.