Suggestions needed for a vinyl newbie

[Matt715]

I think I am ready to jump into the wonderful world of vinyl, but I really have no idea where to start.

What I would like to find out is realistically, how much does it cost to get into a solid entry level setup?

Other than the obvious need of a TT, what else do I need? I am semi-temporarily using an AVR as a preamp, so I would also need a phono preamp. What about a record washer? Is it necessary to have one when you’re starting out?

As far as a budget goes, is it possible to get into something decent for $500 or less? If not, what do I need to spend? I have no issues buying new or used, current or vintage. In fact, I think some of the older tables really look great especially when they’ve been well taken care of. I am also very patient when it comes to waiting for the right deal.

I’ve been watching my local Craigslist for the last year or so and researching what few turntables come up for sale. So far everything that I’ve run across is either grossly overpriced or isn’t well reviewed. There always is the slight chance that I might run across something on there, but I'm not optimistic.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

[Mike]

The best guy to answer this is Rob (OhByTheBay) or Jeff (AVSolutions).

[NorthStar]

Matt, your AVR doesn't have a Phono input? ...Many do.

For $500 (or less) you can get a very decent turntable.
Brand new? ... Pro-Ject Debut III - Rega RP1 -
Used? ... VPI Aries Scout - Rega Planar 3-24 - Rega RP3 -

To clean your albums just get a cleaning brush and fluid; about $20. ...From Discwasher.

[dlb2]

Buy more than you can afford right off the bat. If you dig vinyl and think it's something you'll get into big time, you'll be looking to upgrade from a $500 budget quickly. I'm going through that right now! You don't need to go crazy to get good sound, but get something you'll want for a few years. Read reviews, scour forums, immerse yourself in all of it to get as educated as you can. THEN, go forward with your purchase.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

[Petro85]

Congrats for deciding to get back into vinyl!!
I just saw a couple tables in the $350 range on my daily
Scan through audiogon. Lol
Music hall mmf5
Rega rp3
Project 1.3(I think)
All were $350 I don't know much about any of em. Except I had a music hall for a few weeks to listen to and it was a good table for the money.
All you need is a table with a cartridge, small phono box, and some records!!!

[ohbythebay]

Hey..I heard my name...LOL

Let me offer this first...Define a budget.

You will need:
Turntable
Cartridge
Phone Pre

So based on the budget you give me, I can help. Base minimum (recommend) will be $500 - But you are talking low end - Above the Walmart Crosleys and such but definitely ENTRY ENTRY level.

Get a budget of say $1500 and we can really move up the chain. Get the idea ? LET US KNOW !!

[MusicDirector]

Matt, your AVR doesn't have a Phono input? ...Many do.

For $500 (or less) you can get a very decent turntable.
Brand new? ... Pro-Ject Debut III - Rega RP1 -
Used? ... VPI Aries Scout - Rega Planar 3-24 - Rega RP3 -

To clean your albums just get a cleaning brush and fluid; about $20. ...From Discwasher.

These days AVRs don't have phono stages until you get in the $1000 range on average. However, even at that the phono inputs on AVRs are mere after-thoughts just thrown on with no real planning and from my experience, are pretty bad and can severely limit one's choices of carts, etc. Sadly, because of that, a separate phono preamp is a must these days. It's nothing like it was in the early 70s and before when receivers were seemingly built around the phono stage.

[PMCH]

Matt, my suggestion would be to purchase everything used from someone who is moving up to a better TT or from someone that is getting out of vinyl. That way you won't have as much invested and when you sell (since you are moving up) or (getting out of vinyl because you don't like it) that you should be able to recap what you paid. I was out of vinyl for many years but I am back with a vengence and loving it.

[NorthStar]

Matt, are you following 'thru' with us?

[ohbythebay]

Matt ? Bueller ? Bueller ?

[NorthStar]

These days AVRs don't have phono stages until you get in the $1000 range on average. However, even at that the phono inputs on AVRs are mere after-thoughts just thrown on with no real planning and from my experience, are pretty bad and can severely limit one's choices of carts, etc. Sadly, because of that, a separate phono preamp is a must these days. It's nothing like it was in the early 70s and before when receivers were seemingly built around the phono stage.

True Eric; phono inputs are disappeaing real phast from modern AV receivers.
Only few budget ones still include a MM phono input.
And not all of them are created equal, like you just said.

There are alternatives for a phono stage preamp:
1. A vintage Stereo receiver that you can get at your local Thrift Store or Salvation Army, etc., for only $10 or less.
2. Get a separate phono preamp; some are very inexpensive, like $60 (street, for the Audio-Technica AT-PEQ3).
...And there are several more from Musical Fidelity, NAD, Pro-Ject, etc., in the $50-100 range (street).

3. Or a used one, like the Bellari VP129 (distributed by Music Hall) that you can get for roughly $100 only ($250 retail)!
The Bellari VP129 is made in the US by the Rolls Corporation. ...It's a MM phono preamp, and includes a headphone amp into a single chassis. ...Highest recommendation from Michael Fremer. ...Reviewed in Stereophile: Vol.29 No.2
-> This phono preamp is a Class B unit from Stereophile; in the same category as some which retail for $4,000+/- :audiophile:


When there's a true analog desire there's always a way.

[NorthStar]

Matt, my suggestion would be to purchase everything used from someone who is moving up to a better TT or from someone that is getting out of vinyl. That way you won't have as much invested and when you sell (since you are moving up) or (getting out of vinyl because you don't like it) that you should be able to recap what you paid. I was out of vinyl for many years but I am back with a vengence and loving it.

Totally agree with you Paul.

[MusicDirector]

True Eric; phono inputs are disappeaing real phast from modern AV receivers.
Only few budget ones still include a MM phono input.
And not all of them are created equal, like you just said.

There are alternatives for a phono stage preamp:
1. A vintage Stereo receiver that you can get at your local Thrift Store or Salvation Army, etc., for only $10 or less.
2. Get a separate phono preamp; some are very inexpensive, like $60 (street, for the Audio-Technica AT-PEQ3).
...And there are several more from Musical Fidelity, NAD, Pro-Ject, etc., in the $50-100 range (street).

3. Or a used one, like the Bellari VP129 (distributed by Music Hall) that you can get for roughly $100 only ($250 retail)!
The Bellari VP129 is made in the US by the Rolls Corporation. ...It's a MM phono preamp, and includes a headphone amp into a single chassis. ...Highest recommendation from Michael Fremer. ...Reviewed in Stereophile: Vol.29 No.2
-> This phono preamp is a Class B unit from Stereophile; in the same category as some which retail for $4,000+/- :audiophile:


When there's a true analog desire there's always a way.

Great suggestions Bob. I almost got the Bellari you mention, but decided against it for reasons I forget. The thing one needs to be careful of with the sub $100 phono preamps is the load. Of course, an adjustable load is the ultimate way to go but not found on sub $100 preamps. A decent vintage late 60s to mid 70s receiver is a great way to go if one desires. Those things were built for vinyl record playing. I never needed anything for my vintage system to play vinyl, just hook the TT up to the receiver and go. Sounded just as good as some $3k high-end phono preamps out there! Many of the receivers of that era could handle any cart without any dip switches, knobs or adjustments of any type. Not clear how they did it, but they did. Great stuff back in that day and built like a brick chicken house. (I love my Sansui 8080db)! However, I must also state that cost for one of those vintage jobs varies by state and town. If thrifts in your area have them then it can be as little as $10-$20. Where I live, vintage receivers are now rare and not below 3 digits and not found in thrift stores.

[NorthStar]

I live in Canada; I can get anything and at/for any price. :)

[Matt715]

I'm here! I've got to work to be able to find this hobby, you know. :P Great responses so far. $1500 is just more than I can afford at this point. I could probably up my budget to $750 but that's tops and that will probably push my purchase out a few months unless it's something that I can't pass up.

I would love to find someone who is upgrading their setup and pick their old equipment up at a decent price. That pretty much describes my whole system. I've been patient and pieced it together as funds allow and deals are found.

To answer Bob's question about my AVR, no it doesn't have a phono stage built in. I am still limping along on a oldish H/K until I figure out the direction of my system. So far I'm leaning toward 2 channel but I am still undecided.

I guess I have a bit of research to do before I make any decisions.

[NorthStar]

Hey no sweat Matt; we got all life living and working and waiting and retiring and talking and music listening. :)

* Just follow your heart. :heart: ... Here we're only good to give you the directions.
And some of us always have stuff for sale; it's only a question of finding out your own accommodation in your own price territory.

[ohbythebay]

I'm here! I've got to work to be able to find this hobby, you know. :P Great responses so far. $1500 is just more than I can afford at this point. I could probably up my budget to $750 but that's tops and that will probably push my purchase out a few months unless it's something that I can't pass up.

I would love to find someone who is upgrading their setup and pick their old equipment up at a decent price. That pretty much describes my whole system. I've been patient and pieced it together as funds allow and deals are found.

To answer Bob's question about my AVR, no it doesn't have a phono stage built in. I am still limping along on a oldish H/K until I figure out the direction of my system. So far I'm leaning toward 2 channel but I am still undecided.

I guess I have a bit of research to do before I make any decisions.

Okay, now that helps....I needed to know your budget.

So how about we keep it under $600 ?

3 turntable suggestions
Amazon.com: Music Hall MMF 2.2 Belt Driven Turntable with Cartridge, Gloss Black: Electronics (http://www.amazon.com/Music-Hall-Driven-Turntable-Cartridge/dp/B001FUF8FQ/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1384304674&sr=8-2&keywords=music+hall+turntable)

Amazon.com: Pro-Ject Debut - Carbon w/Ortofon 2M Red Cartridge - Black: Electronics (http://www.amazon.com/Pro-Ject-Debut-Carbon-Ortofon-Cartridge/dp/B007XTE6YW/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1384304820&sr=8-2&keywords=project+debut+carbon)

Amazon.com: Audio Technica AT-LP1240-USB Direct Drive DJ Turntable: Electronics (http://www.amazon.com/Audio-Technica-AT-LP1240-USB-Direct-Turntable/dp/B007R9B0UQ/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1384304848&sr=8-6&keywords=audio+technica+turntable)


First two have pretty decent cartridges..and should be your first look

As to phono stage...You cant beat this ($47) unless you go over $250 , so why do it ? This is an awesome phono stage ! I own one my self and have done significant testing. I also own a $600 phono stage which is better but never liked ANYTHING in between

http://www.amazon.com/ART-II-Preamplifier-Outputs-Switchable/dp/B000AJR482


If you go for table #3 (which requires a cart) then the cart I recommend for it is the At120
Audio-Technica AT-120E AT 120E AT120E,Audio-Technica AT-120E AT 120E AT120E cartridge,Audio-Technica AT-120E AT 120E AT120E phono cartridge,Audio-Technica AT-120E/T AT 120E/T AT120E/T phono cartridge,Audio-Technica AT-120E AT 120E AT120E phonograph c (http://www.lpgear.com/product/ATC06.html)

But even better the AT440Mla
Audio-Technica AT-440MLa,Audio-Technica AT 440MLa,Audio-Technica AT440MLa,Audio-Technica AT-440MLa cartridge,Audio-Technica AT 440MLa cartridge,Audio-Technica AT440MLa cartridge,Audio-Technica AT-440MLa phono cartridge,Audio-Technica AT 440MLa phono (http://www.lpgear.com/product/ATC05.html)

Finally, when you are ready to setup your turntable, watch my video
Basic Turntable Setup (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnskL8Pe6fk&feature=youtu.be)

[NorthStar]

Awesome Rob!

[ohbythebay]

Awesome Rob!

Thanks...If someone gives me a budget..I can build them a phono setup...Had he said the $1500, it would have been different...BARE minimum I can build is about $320...

sincerely ,

The Price Negotiator
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/William-Shatner-Slapping-Himself.gif

[Matt715]

Yes, thanks for the great suggestions. I did have a $500 budget in my first post but I can adjust it as needed; it just will take longer to get what I want. If that phono stage is basically the best I'm going to get on the cheap, what would be the next step up in terms of tables? As I said before, I have no problem buying used so I might be able to do better for less.

[Jack]

Rob

I am going to be different to a point. I would recommend your favorite the AT-120LP, the AT-120E/T and the ART. If he lived closer, then I could outfit him with better for less, but if he wants to buy new that is my pick. I would stay away from any of the lower priced belt drives that need an external speed controller and the 2M-Red in particular as it sounds to me like a poorly done CD.

[ohbythebay]

Rob

I am going to be different to a point. I would recommend your favorite the AT-120LP, the AT-120E/T and the ART. If he lived closer, then I could outfit him with better for less, but if he wants to buy new that is my pick. I would stay away from any of the lower priced belt drives that need an external speed controller and the 2M-Red in particular as it sounds to me like a poorly done CD.

LOL..I agree...but had to give him some choices...Thanks Jack..

Hey Matt,

To be honest..until you get to about the 1K price range, Jack is right. Go with the ATLP120, replace the cart it comes with the AT120E and get the ART DJ Pre...

Amazon.com: Audio-Technica AT-LP120-USB Direct-Drive Professional Turntable (USB & Analog): Electronics (http://www.amazon.com/Audio-Technica-AT-LP120-USB-Direct-Drive-Professional-Turntable/dp/B002S1CJ2Q)

So your total cost will be about 379 (232 table, 47 Pre, 100 cart)...The AT120 has 3 speeds, quartz lock direct drive and manual speed, strobe, very cool...

I have one as a secondary table ..(see pictures) ...Oh and throw in $25 to get a supermat (the AT comes with a felt mat but the supermat is better)

https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/557896_610941698921296_258148767_n.jpg

https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/223465_606549982693801_1025528652_n.jpg

https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/66627_605967436085389_387831990_n.jpg

[Jack]

Not a fan of lower end belt drives at all. Still have a mint Rega Planar 3 that was the top of the Rega line a decade ago and the darling of the Audiophile press, especially Fremer. After owning a B&O 8002 for almost 20years this was the biggest disappointment of my analog journey. Speed was never correct to my ears and to this day it sits on my spare TT shelf unit with less than 500hrs. I refuse to buy "extras" to make it sound correct. The Planar 3 is multiple steps above the current bottom of the line belt drive offerings, so to expect them to keep accurate speed without outside assistance would be a pipe dream.

[Matt715]

Ok, so you've got my interest in the AT-LP120, but what's the deal with the black one on Amazon? I really like the way it looks but that is the only one I've been able to find. A-T's site doesn't even list a black one. Any ideas?

The other thing I had a question about was that I have a Oppo BDP-83 SE Nuforce edition. It was one of those right place right time buys that I normally would have been only able to dream about. Are these entry level turntables going to sound awful compared to it?

[NorthStar]

The AT black on Amazon; you mean the DJ one?

* The 16 million dollars question! It's all relative; the BDP-83SE is a sweet digital player.
And with like anything in life, what you feed your cat with makes part of what he is. ;)

If you play bad LP recordings on a $500 analog rig; it will sound most likely real bad to your own ears.
And the same on your $1,000 digital rig with some bad CD music recordings.

The music (software) is more important than the gear (hardware). ...For me it is.

___________________

I can buy excellent digital music recordings (CD/SACD/Blu-rayAudio) from record labels like Channel Classics, Reference Recordings, ECM, AudioQuest, APO, DG, FIM, 2L, digital hi-res audio files (downloads), etc. for roughly between $20 and $40 (Canadian dollars).
But quality LPs would run me between $25 and $60 Cdn.
{Yeah, you can buy used CDs and records, but with used records usually come a penalty; dirt.}

And! For a roughly $1,000 digital stereo rig I can get further in sound quality than a $1,000 analog stereo rig playing similar quality music recordings. ...From my personal experience coming through my ears.
...Need further exploration though, to be totally/openly honest; in both analog and digital domain.

So many variables; maintenance, cleaning, calibrating, setting up, music playing, and long term effects and financial wisdom.
You can be plenty satisfy with both analog and digital. Best; get both and explore both worlds to the limit, your own limit.
And most important; have fun while doing it and listening.

I feel a bit stupid saying this because it seems to be quite obvious to most of us, and the music recordings you purchase is the most important investment of them all.
But that is your choice and yours only. Pick your weapon(s), and buy the best ammunition. ...The stuff that will hit its intended target.

Matt, just find a friend who has an analog rig, and bring a six-pack or bottle of wine over to his/her place, and chat with him/her while listening to few LPs from the music you love. ...That'll give you a better idea, I think.

Where's your main interest, relative to your music collection? Is it worthy to have both systems, or preferable to pursue one but one further?

I can easily write a book, but I won't. :D

P.S. For a car I prefer a black one over a silver one... ;)

[ohbythebay]

Just to clarify ...The ATLP120 is silver. The ATLP1240 is black BUT costs more however; it is considered a very good table (better specs, etc.) and considered a Super OEM table. Here is just one review.

Audio Technica AT-LP1240-USB Turntable Review (http://www.djbooth.net/index/dj-equipment/review/audio-technica-at-lp1240-usb/)

As to vinyl vs. CD ...you cant really compare. They are different sounds. CD is digital. Vinyl is pure analog. Noise and quality of the vinyl medium may not be as quiet as a CD. Its not so much about which sounds better, its about which you like, enjoying the hobby, etc.

It would be like asking which sounds better - Tubes or Solid State. Solid State may be precise. Tubes may sound warmer and natural. But in the end its what you like.

[Jack]

If you like the 1240 better you can still get the whole deal for about $550 with no shipping.

[MusicDirector]

Not a fan of lower end belt drives at all. Still have a mint Rega Planar 3 that was the top of the Rega line a decade ago and the darling of the Audiophile press, especially Fremer. After owning a B&O 8002 for almost 20years this was the biggest disappointment of my analog journey. Speed was never correct to my ears and to this day it sits on my spare TT shelf unit with less than 500hrs. I refuse to buy "extras" to make it sound correct. The Planar 3 is multiple steps above the current bottom of the line belt drive offerings, so to expect them to keep accurate speed without outside assistance would be a pipe dream.

Couldn't agree more. When I was doing vinyl I was using vintage TTs. There is a dealer near me that carries the Rega line and I was looking for another TT at the time. He demoed a few of them for me, but we did not go beyond $1000 initial cost. I was not so sure that my old Pioneer 510 was not better so the dealer had me bring it in for a head to head. Mind you, it was direct drive vs belt, but he had me do it anyway because he believes belt wins every time. The Regas lost to the surprise of both the dealer and myself. The old Pioneer just sounded a bit better and more stable than the entry level Regas. That's when I learned what you mentioned. I found that I could get a $700 Rega, but I would have to throw another $600 to $900 for a kit with an "upgraded" tonearm, cartridge and belts. (no regulator). So why spend $1300 to $1600 for an entry level belt drive TT? For that bread one can get a great vintage table and have enough left over for 50 to 60 new records or 200 to 300 used ones or something or perhaps an RCM at that amount of money!

[MusicDirector]

Just to clarify ...The ATLP120 is silver. The ATLP1240 is black BUT costs more however; it is considered a very good table (better specs, etc.) and considered a Super OEM table. Here is just one review.

Audio Technica AT-LP1240-USB Turntable Review (http://www.djbooth.net/index/dj-equipment/review/audio-technica-at-lp1240-usb/)

As to vinyl vs. CD ...you cant really compare. They are different sounds. CD is digital. Vinyl is pure analog. Noise and quality of the vinyl medium may not be as quiet as a CD. Its not so much about which sounds better, its about which you like, enjoying the hobby, etc.

It would be like asking which sounds better - Tubes or Solid State. Solid State may be precise. Tubes may sound warmer and natural. But in the end its what you like.

Yes, the whole vinyl vs CD argument has to be the stupidest of all time. Both have their merits and downsides. You can have great sounding and terrible sounding vinyl records and great sounding and terrible sounding CDs. Sure, records are warmer due to the fact they are analog and non-compressed sort of. CDs tend to sound more sterile, but can still sound good. Some stuff on vinyl is not available on CD. Some stuff just sounds better on CD and some sounds better on vinyl, there is no hard fast rule. It's all in the ears of the beholder.

[NorthStar]

Some Denon TTs are very good, Pioneer too, Technics as well, Dual, Concord, Astro, Fisher, Marantz, ...

* Some people at some audio forums are in epiphany preaching the beautiful merits of analog vinyl.
It is so much superior in emotional wisdom and in close relationship with the realistic world surrounding us.
I agree with them people. ...And digital was just a bad invention in trying to simplifying further our already simple and beautiful life.
That was all done in the interest of financial profit for Sony. ...We know the tune; CD is forever.

Yeah Matt, get the most expensive turntable you can afford (a black one) to spin your black records, and don't look back.
Don't forget a good mat. ;)

[MusicDirector]

* Some people at some audio forums are in epiphany preaching the beautiful merits of analog vinyl.
It is so much superior in emotional wisdom and in close relationship with the realistic world surrounding us.
I agree with them people. ...And digital was just a bad invention in trying to simplifying further our already simple and beautiful life.
That was all done in the interest of financial profit for Sony. ...We know the tune; CD is forever.

;)

CD a bad invention?....Not necessarily. More importantly, it's the music itself, no matter the media form that is the emotional wisdom and in close relationship with the realistic world that surrounds us.

[Bill13]

Hey..I heard my name...LOL

Let me offer this first...Define a budget.

You will need:
Turntable
Cartridge
Phone Pre

So based on the budget you give me, I can help. Base minimum (recommend) will be $500 - But you are talking low end - Above the Walmart Crosleys and such but definitely ENTRY ENTRY level.

Get a budget of say $1500 and we can really move up the chain. Get the idea ? LET US KNOW !!


I me myself take full credit for directing Rob here.

[NorthStar]

---- http://lifeloveandmusic.net/Content/2013/10/pat-on-the-back-300x300-scaled59511.jpg

[Matt715]

Bob, I wish I could go over to a friend's house and listen to their turntable but alas, I am the only person that I know who is into audio. The little bit that I have been exposed to listening to a nice turntable was two songs on a 10k TT in a showroom and the few rooms that were playing music from a TT at Axpona this last spring. I guess the good thing that I can take away from my short listening sessions is that I enjoyed the sound; and that's what this hobby is about for me more than format, ect..

As far as the elusive black one that a seller had on Amazon, I think I figured it out. It definitely wasn't a AT-LP1240 but I believe it was a Reloop RP4000M3D (http://www.reloop.com/reloop-rp-4000-m3d-1) which looks almost identical to the AT-LP120. I asked them if it indeed was a a 120 and they said it was and it was in a sealed box. I went back to check it out and they had pulled the listing down. The picture they had of it was playing a record so I couldn't see if the mat had the big Audio-Technica across it.

While on the subject of the mat, are you guys talking about the 1/4" Kab Supermat (http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/accesss.htm)?

I did manage to score a new Art DJPRE II last night for $34.50 shipped so I've got that part out of the way. :woot:

I'm going to keep an eye out for a sale on the AT-LP120 and in the meantime do some more research.

[ohbythebay]

Bob, I wish I could go over to a friend's house and listen to their turntable but alas, I am the only person that I know who is into audio. The little bit that I have been exposed to listening to a nice turntable was two songs on a 10k TT in a showroom and the few rooms that were playing music from a TT at Axpona this last spring. I guess the good thing that I can take away from my short listening sessions is that I enjoyed the sound; and that's what this hobby is about for me more than format, ect..

As far as the elusive black one that a seller had on Amazon, I think I figured it out. It definitely wasn't a AT-LP1240 but I believe it was a Reloop RP4000M3D (http://www.reloop.com/reloop-rp-4000-m3d-1) which looks almost identical to the AT-LP120. I asked them if it indeed was a a 120 and they said it was and it was in a sealed box. I went back to check it out and they had pulled the listing down. The picture they had of it was playing a record so I couldn't see if the mat had the big Audio-Technica across it.

While on the subject of the mat, are you guys talking about the 1/4" Kab Supermat (http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/accesss.htm)?

I did manage to score a new Art DJPRE II last night for $34.50 shipped so I've got that part out of the way. :woot:

I'm going to keep an eye out for a sale on the AT-LP120 and in the meantime do some more research.

Matt,

Your not going to see much lower than the Amazon price BUT there might be a thanksgiving sale. Honestly, for the money, you cant ask for better - Note - I said for the money. Its no $1000 turntable but it is a great started table for you without being a cheap thing.

I wrote a thread on another thread on some tweaks to make it better (the Super mat, extra weight on the counterweight, etc). Addresses what people would say is a drawback and eliminates them

A few things. To properly set it up you need two tools.

A gram scale
A protractor

The gram scale is so you set the tracking weight correctly (you cant just go by the dial)

The protractor is for the alignment. The cartridge comes pre-mounted but I can tell you for sure, it was wrong.

Gram scale sample
300g x 0 01g Mini Digital Jewelry Pocket Gram Scale LCD | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/300g-x-0-01g-Mini-Digital-Jewelry-Pocket-GRAM-Scale-LCD-/370546703910?pt=US_Pocket_Digital_Scales&hash=item56464dfe26)

Baerwald protractor
Amazon.com: Turntable Phono Cartridge Stylus Alignment Protractor Tool Mirror: Electronics (http://www.amazon.com/Turntable-Cartridge-Stylus-Alignment-Protractor/dp/B005KR15HU)

Bet you didn;t know the hobby required tools...LOL

[Jack]

This is the best scale you are going to find for the money and free s&h. Also has non magnetic platform and low profile platform. First is important for MC cartridges and the latter just lets you remove the mat and set it on the platter and you are at the height of an lp with the mat on.


Digital Precision Scale with Leather Case (5g Max / 0.01g Resolution) - Free Shipping - DealExtreme (http://dx.com/p/digital-precision-scale-with-leather-case-5g-max-0-01g-resolution-16269)

[NorthStar]

This is the best scale you are going to find for the money and free s&h. Also has non magnetic platform and low profile platform. First is important for MC cartridges and the latter just lets you remove the mat and set it on the platter and you are at the height of an lp with the mat on.


Digital Precision Scale with Leather Case (5g Max / 0.01g Resolution) - Free Shipping - DealExtreme (http://dx.com/p/digital-precision-scale-with-leather-case-5g-max-0-01g-resolution-16269)

She's real pretty Jack. :) ...And affordable.

[MusicDirector]

Bob, I wish I could go over to a friend's house and listen to their turntable but alas, I am the only person that I know who is into audio. The little bit that I have been exposed to listening to a nice turntable was two songs on a 10k TT in a showroom and the few rooms that were playing music from a TT at Axpona this last spring. I guess the good thing that I can take away from my short listening sessions is that I enjoyed the sound; and that's what this hobby is about for me more than format, ect..

I did manage to score a new Art DJPRE II last night for $34.50 shipped so I've got that part out of the way. :woot:

I'm going to keep an eye out for a sale on the AT-LP120 and in the meantime do some more research.

Wow! Same here, I'm the only one in my province that is into audio or even knows what a stereo is! The people in my local reach have never seen a system much less have any interest in audio at all. If it's not on a phone or a TV, they aren't interested.

Good job on snagging that ART DJPRE for that price! That is a great start in the preamp world.

[ohbythebay]

This is the best scale you are going to find for the money and free s&h. Also has non magnetic platform and low profile platform. First is important for MC cartridges and the latter just lets you remove the mat and set it on the platter and you are at the height of an lp with the mat on.


Digital Precision Scale with Leather Case (5g Max / 0.01g Resolution) - Free Shipping - DealExtreme (http://dx.com/p/digital-precision-scale-with-leather-case-5g-max-0-01g-resolution-16269)

I have one like that also...any will do for this purpose...I would not recommend an MC cart on the AT...LOL

[MusicDirector]

This is the best scale you are going to find for the money and free s&h. Also has non magnetic platform and low profile platform. First is important for MC cartridges and the latter just lets you remove the mat and set it on the platter and you are at the height of an lp with the mat on.


Digital Precision Scale with Leather Case (5g Max / 0.01g Resolution) - Free Shipping - DealExtreme (http://dx.com/p/digital-precision-scale-with-leather-case-5g-max-0-01g-resolution-16269)

Indeed. This is the one I was using only I got mine off amazon for around $14.

[Jack]

Rob

Your right anyone "will do", though this one has the advantage of the low platform. As to a MC on the AT, a DL-110 would fit compliance wise and would be a reasonable alternative to the AT cartridges for similar price. Needs to be loaded down though, but then in many systems so do the AT's.

[ohbythebay]

Rob

Your right anyone "will do", though this one has the advantage of the low platform. As to a MC on the AT, a DL-110 would fit compliance wise and would be a reasonable alternative to the AT cartridges for similar price. Needs to be loaded down though, but then in many systems so do the AT's.

Very True ! Not to overwhelm him though and not sure he can do cart loading with the ART DJ since (I think) it will force 47K even with resistor plugs...hmm..wonder what it would do in tandem...:weird:

[Jack]

Rob

You can load down with the ART. Just need plugs and splitters like on Daveyw's site. I use the solid body splitters as they have much lower capacitance. Many of the wire ones you find commonly are from 75-150pf themselves, which undo any good you did by loading with an AT.

Parallel Resistive Loading (http://daveyw.edsstuff.org/vinyl/loading/)

New RCA Y Splitter AV Audio Video Plug Converter 1 Male to 2 Female Adapter 1 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-RCA-Y-Splitter-AV-Audio-Video-Plug-Converter-1-Male-to-2-Female-Adapter-1-/310795421420?pt=US_Audio_Cables_Adapters&hash=item485cd9c6ec)

[ohbythebay]

Rob

You can load down with the ART. Just need plugs and splitters like on Daveyw's site. I use the solid body splitters as they have much lower capacitance. Many of the wire ones you find commonly are from 75-150pf themselves, which undo any good you did by loading with an AT.

Parallel Resistive Loading (http://daveyw.edsstuff.org/vinyl/loading/)


New RCA Y Splitter AV Audio Video Plug Converter 1 Male to 2 Female Adapter 1 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-RCA-Y-Splitter-AV-Audio-Video-Plug-Converter-1-Male-to-2-Female-Adapter-1-/310795421420?pt=US_Audio_Cables_Adapters&hash=item485cd9c6ec)

Awesome Jack...was not sure how that worked..so what I am now seeing (light bulb went on) is its really no different than when you load plugged in to phono jacks on an integrated amp..only difference is its external...

Cool...I made a set using Davey's method a while back. Since I have at AT440MLa, may try it again since he recommends 32k...

Again, many thanks !

[Jack]

Anytime Rob, just make sure those splitters you have are not high capacitance ones. The ones like I linked on Ebay are sold in sets by multiple sellars. When I measured them they only measured 6pf as opposed to 70pf for the wire splitters.

[Matt715]

Scale and protractor are on their way!

I were to keep an eye out for a better used table, what would be a few models worth pursuing?

[NorthStar]

Matt, your AVR doesn't have a Phono input? ...Many do.

For $500 (or less) you can get a very decent turntable.
Brand new? ... Pro-Ject Debut III - Rega RP1 -
Used? ... VPI Aries Scout - Rega Planar 3-24 - Rega RP3 -

To clean your albums just get a cleaning brush and fluid; about $20. ...From Discwasher.


Scale and protractor are on their way!

I were to keep an eye out for a better used table, what would be a few models worth pursuing?

Among some others; coming up ...

[Jack]

Matt

As much as I prefer Vintage TT's, if this is your first venture into the TT world I would suggest you just start with the AT and if you like what you hear then you can look for a good vintage turntable. Also remember what others recommend as available and with prices in their part of the world may not be possible in yours. For example if you lived closer to me or were willing to deal with shipping I have several spares that are probably better than the AT and in your price range, but again you have to deal with the maulers at UPS and FedEx and no warranty. So for starters, just buy the new AT which Rob and others have used and enjoyed and see what you think of the medium as a whole. As for looking for a "cheaper price or better deal" on the AT, I don't think you will find one and the Amazon return policy is worth more than a few dollars itself.

[Matt715]

I understand. I guess my biggest hangup is that I was expecting more of, well, an audiophile TT than a DJ table. Apparently I'm little superficial. :S It seems like there is a giant gap in the turntable industry between the entry level offerings and $900+ tables. Don't get me wrong, I like a deal as much as anyone else (ok, maybe even more) but I wasn't really expecting to buy this instant unless I ran across some great deal. That's why I was willing to wait a little while for a price drop.

[Matt715]

The listing for the black AT-LP120 (http://www.amazon.com/Audio-Technica-AT-LP120-USB-Direct-Drive-Professional-Turntable/dp/B002S1CJ2Q/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1384486370&sr=8-1&keywords=at-lp120) is back. I saved a picture of it this time in case it disappears again. Take a look:

3784

[MusicDirector]

I understand. I guess my biggest hangup is that I was expecting more of, well, an audiophile TT than a DJ table. Apparently I'm little superficial. :S It seems like there is a giant gap in the turntable industry between the entry level offerings and $900+ tables. Don't get me wrong, I like a deal as much as anyone else (ok, maybe even more) but I wasn't really expecting to buy this instant unless I ran across some great deal. That's why I was willing to wait a little while for a price drop.

Don't get into looking for an audiophile TT or preamp or any of it until you know whether or not you'll dig vinyl. Get what you can afford and do it for a while. It will take some time, not 2 weeks, more like months or give it a year if you can. The high-end/audiophile vinyl or analog world is not for the weak (like myself). In general, the vinyl world is a beautiful thing, but you have to be able to handle it. If you can get a good vintage table, I'd go that route. If not, that AT table looks nice (especially the black one).:) As for vintage tables, there are tons of them that are good. Some strong ones I can suggest for consideration are: Pioneer (any model that is not plastic), some of the Technics tables (I would not put too much credence into the DJ ones, they are built like a brick chicken house, but performance is so-so), Yamaha, Kenwood, Marantz (as long is it's not plastic), Thorens, almost any of the Denon DP-f series tables from the 80s to early 90s are great beginning tables (I'd stay in the DP45f to DP60l range. Don't bother looking at the new Denon tables, they are horrid and that includes the $1100+ anniversary one of about a year ago. In fact, many dealers returned them and won't sell them anymore because of all the issues they have). Those are just a few examples. With any vintage table just be sure it's in great working order and do research about known problems as well. For instance, the Denon DP-f or DP-l series tables are noted for the electronic gizmo (I forgot what it was called) going south and they are a royal pain to get fixed if at all possible. However, if you find one of those tables in excellent condition, you should not have any worries for some time to come.

[Matt715]

Don't get into looking for an audiophile TT or preamp or any of it until you know whether or not you'll dig vinyl. Get what you can afford and do it for a while. It will take some time, not 2 weeks, more like months or give it a year if you can. The high-end/audiophile vinyl or analog world is not for the weak (like myself). In general, the vinyl world is a beautiful thing, but you have to be able to handle it. If you can get a good vintage table, I'd go that route. If not, that AT table looks nice (especially the black one).:) As for vintage tables, there are tons of them that are good. Some strong ones I can suggest for consideration are: Pioneer (any model that is not plastic), some of the Technics tables (I would not put too much credence into the DJ ones, they are built like a brick chicken house, but performance is so-so), Yamaha, Kenwood, Marantz (as long is it's not plastic), Thorens, almost any of the Denon DP-f series tables from the 80s to early 90s are great beginning tables (I'd stay in the DP45f to DP60l range. Don't bother looking at the new Denon tables, they are horrid and that includes the $1100+ anniversary one of about a year ago. In fact, many dealers returned them and won't sell them anymore because of all the issues they have). Those are just a few examples. With any vintage table just be sure it's in great working order and do research about known problems as well. For instance, the Denon DP-f or DP-l series tables are noted for the electronic gizmo (I forgot what it was called) going south and they are a royal pain to get fixed if at all possible. However, if you find one of those tables in excellent condition, you should not have any worries for some time to come.


Thanks MusicDirector. It sounds like solid advice.

[MusicDirector]

Thanks MusicDirector. It sounds like solid advice.

Trust me, I'd hate to see you end up ditching it out of frustration. Spending a ton of money right out of the gate and ending up with something that does not sound good to you or just plain over-spending will kill it real fast. The best thing to do is take it slow and read, study it a bit. Pay no attention to the hyperbole over changing tone arm wiring and cables going from the TT or the preamp or all the RCM stuff and $12k preamps and the 24k gold incrusted cartridges and all that stuff. Just focus on learning the basics first, for now. The fluff can come later on. Once you understand the basics, you'll know what works and what will work for you. Always remember it's your ears, not what the reviewer says or anyone else. You do not have their ears and they do not have yours. (Your wallets are also different I would hasten to guess). You've picked up the basic tools and now to learn them. You will probably find that they will be all you need for a long time.

[A/V Solutions]

IMO I would visit a few dealers in your area if there are any and listen to some entry level turntables to see if this is a path you want to go down.....having a $500 budget for everything doesn't really represent the vinyl format well......and stay away from those DJ tables there garbage, also be aware of buying vintage tables unless you know what your looking at, many are worn out piles of junk in need of work. If I were you I would save a bit more, $1200-$1500 really allows for a broader range to choose from. Since your just starting out with vinyl there are a few things to watch for.....1. be careful buying a used table, there are good one's out there but also not so good. 2. DO Not buy used cartridges unless you know the history of the cartridge, people seem to have forgotten they put 2000 hours on the cartridge they advertised of having 50 hours on it 3. Phono Stage is the safest out out the bunch buying used but still use caution. Good luck in your journey!

[NorthStar]

And that is if there is an audio dealer in his area set up with a turntable rig. ...Not too many of those here in my area; Victoria and surroundings.

[A/V Solutions]

And that is if there is an audio dealer in his area set up with a turntable rig. ...Not too many of those here in my area; Victoria and surroundings.

Then it may be worth a road trip, I'm sure there something with in an hour or two from where he is at.....better than throwing money after something that doesn't float his boat. Sorry but about the only good advise in this thread was the mid line Music Hall, Project and Rega tables and of course saving a bit more :) Flame suit is on.

[Matt715]

Then it may be worth a road trip, I'm sure there something with in an hour or two from where he is at.....better than throwing money after something that doesn't float his boat.

The closest dealer to me is a little better than 2.5 hours away in Green Bay (http://hifiheaven.net). They do list quite a few entry level turntables on their website but I'm not sure of what they carry in stock. A big plus is that they do carry the same speakers I have so I could probably hear a really good representation of what it would sound like here at my house. I've been itching to go over there for years and now I have a reason.

One thing that is actually making me have second thoughts is that a few albums I've wanted to pickup are now out of print and bringing $75-100 on the used market. I could see spending that on one or two special albums but I can't see myself spending that kind of money on album after album.

I think I might take things a little slower and really think this decision over a little more before I buy anything else.

[Jack]

Jeff

The AT TT that Rob and I recommended is in my opinion a safer bet than the entry level TT's from Project, Rega and Music Hall as they at least keep accurate speed without add-on accessories and I own a Rega mid-line table that I never use and would love to sell. The Denon DP-300f is a better choice than them. I don't think Rob would own one and recommend it if it didn't work, plus if the OP doesn't like the format he can sell it on and not loose. As to vintage you are correct about that unless you buy from a trusted seller or can find one on CL that you can see and test in person. As a dealer I understand your perspective of buy new, but that is not always the best choice for people on a budget. If it was there would be no Audiogon. We all have different choices and opinion and that is why there are both kinds of markets.

[A/V Solutions]

The closest dealer to me is a little better than 2.5 hours away in Green Bay (http://hifiheaven.net). They do list quite a few entry level turntables on their website but I'm not sure of what they carry in stock. A big plus is that they do carry the same speakers I have so I could probably hear a really good representation of what it would sound like here at my house. I've been itching to go over there for years and now I have a reason.

One thing that is actually making me have second thoughts is that a few albums I've wanted to pickup are now out of print and bringing $75-100 on the used market. I could see spending that on one or two special albums but I can't see myself spending that kind of money on album after album.

I think I might take things a little slower and really think this decision over a little more before I buy anything else.

Yep take that road trip best thing you can do!!! Lp's range from about $25-$50 from the internet places....yes there are hard to find or limited or out of print that fetch higher prices. Lot's of private internet sellers and used records stores around and you can find ton's of stuff for a reasonable price. I have a dozen record stores in my area and find stuff all the time for a few bucks on up. Classic Rock and 50-60's Jazz fetch the most, Classical the least, Country or Western they will pay you to take LOL just kidding......Happy Listening

[ohbythebay]

The listing for the black AT-LP120 (http://www.amazon.com/Audio-Technica-AT-LP120-USB-Direct-Drive-Professional-Turntable/dp/B002S1CJ2Q/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1384486370&sr=8-1&keywords=at-lp120) is back. I saved a picture of it this time in case it disappears again. Take a look:

3784

Looks like you can order it in black now...wow...

EDIT - Upon further review, it does not look like its factory black..it looks repainted...but not sure how he maintained the lettering...Hmm...curious...

[dlb2]

...Country or Western they will pay you to take

:lol:

[A/V Solutions]

Jeff

The AT TT that Rob and I recommended is in my opinion a safer bet than the entry level TT's from Project, Rega and Music Hall as they at least keep accurate speed without add-on accessories and I own a Rega mid-line table that I never use and would love to sell. The Denon DP-300f is a better choice than them. I don't think Rob would own one and recommend it if it didn't work, plus if the OP doesn't like the format he can sell it on and not loose. As to vintage you are correct about that unless you buy from a trusted seller or can find one on CL that you can see and test in person. As a dealer I understand your perspective of buy new, but that is not always the best choice for people on a budget. If it was there would be no Audiogon. We all have different choices and opinion and that is why there are both kinds of markets.

Jack,

There are pros and cons with both (vintage and new mid level) and since Matt is just venturing into all this he is safer not having to go down that path, unless someone that knows sees and checks out the vintage piece, more than half of the vintage stuff you see is worn out junk and needs work so I see it as a bigger risk. With new he at least has a warranty and they sound nice. As a dealer my suggestion was not based on buying new and or recommending brands I sell. The brands I recommended were Music Hall, project and Rega which I do not sell.....I'm very aware of conflict of interest when posting in a forum and doubt you would ever find a post of mine recommending the gear I sell in case that crossed your mind.

[ohbythebay]

Then it may be worth a road trip, I'm sure there something with in an hour or two from where he is at.....better than throwing money after something that doesn't float his boat. Sorry but about the only good advise in this thread was the mid line Music Hall, Project and Rega tables and of course saving a bit more :) Flame suit is on.

Jeff my friend, I love you buddy...but this is one time I have to disagree with you. You mention some great tables for sure and good paths but only for someone who:

1) Has a bigger budget
2) Is already sure he is into vinyl

As we any hobby, its always best to dip your toe first, stay in budget and work from there...take the journey. We have all done it. Not many people go from nothing to say, a VPI Scout, Phonomena or better and so on.

I personally own the AT (as a secondary table) and I have to say, it is my #1 choice for entry level...even over entry Rega's, Pro-ject, Music Hall etc. which have known issues right out of the box (speed and motor issues for example).

As to used, I have purchased (on Ebay of all places) some really fine used tables..but then again, I sort of knew what to look for and vetted the sellers.

Examples I would entertain if I was doing the vintage
Marantz 6100 Turntable Auto Return Mint Works Perfect Record Player | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/MARANTZ-6100-TURNTABLE-AUTO-RETURN-MINT-WORKS-PERFECT-RECORD-PLAYER-/141112683070?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item20daf8aa3e)

Extremely Nice Pioneer PL 530 Direct Drive Turntable w Micro Acoustics 282E | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Extremely-Nice-Pioneer-PL-530-Direct-Drive-Turntable-w-Micro-Acoustics-282E-/331062849298?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item4d14e22f12)

JVC QL Y5F Direct Drive Quartz Lock Turntable Technics Headshell Automatic | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/JVC-QL-Y5F-Direct-Drive-Quartz-Lock-Turntable-Technics-Headshell-Automatic-/291010252676?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item43c1900f84)

[Jack]

Jeff

No that never crossed my mind as your reputation is not in question or an issue. My point as a vinyl user for almost fifty years is that what is well reviewed in magazines and e-zines is that way sometimes for a reason, advertising dollars. The OP is better served by taking the advise of actual users and not reviewers. I am well aware that you do not operate in vinyl in that price point or with those manufactures. That is why Rob and I recommended that for his "first" venture into vinyl he go safe with the AT, that Rob has tested extensively and if he doesn't like all the ritual it takes then he will be out very little. If he wants to take the trip and venture out then good for him. I also said that with Vintage TT's you need to know who you are buying from and as a "newbie" understand the dangers and only buy what you can see and touch.

[A/V Solutions]

Fair enough Jack.....hey Rob long time no talk, hope all is well :)

I'm sure we all know where we stand and its best to wish Matt a happy journey if he so chooses to go down this road. Happy Listening!!

[ohbythebay]

Fair enough Jack.....hey Rob long time no talk, hope all is well :)

I'm sure we all know where we stand and its best to wish Matt a happy journey if he so chooses to go down this road. Happy Listening!!

Hey dude !!! Still LOVING my Concept / Phonomena II / Concept setup...Cart only got better and better as it broke and now its SUPERB. Been really WORK busy (I work for Microsoft so if you read the news you know why) ...don't get to play as much as I like...But when I do...heaven.

Been having fun playing with new MS stuff !! Hope you are well too !!

So when do I move up to the VPI Classic III or VPI Direct ... ;)

[A/V Solutions]

Hey dude !!! Still LOVING my Concept / Phonomena II / Concept setup...Cart only got better and better as it broke and now its SUPERB. Been really WORK busy (I work for Microsoft so if you read the news you know why) ...don't get to play as much as I like...But when I do...heaven.

Been having fun playing with new MS stuff !! Hope you are well too !!

So when do I move up to the VPI Classic III or VPI Direct ... ;)

Hi Rob, glad to hear all is good with you, I've been busy too, time sure does fly!!.....I just might have a VPI in your color :)

Be well my friend and happy listening :audiophile:

[NorthStar]

Looks like you can order it in black now...wow...

EDIT - Upon further review, it does not look like its factory black..it looks repainted...but not sure how he maintained the lettering...Hmm...curious...

My first thought exactly.

P.S. Go VPI or bust! :D

[ohbythebay]

MATT !!! I forgot two you might like - full auto, in your range and maybe more your style..one is black..LOL

Newegg.com - Denon DP-300F Fully Automatic Turntable (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA3BY11J4030&nm_mc=KNC-MSNSearch&cm_mmc=KNC-MSNSearch-_-Home+Audio-_-Denon-_-9SIA3BY11J4030)

Amazon.com: DENON Full Auto Player System Premium Silver DP-300F-SP 100V 50-60Hz (Japanese Import): Electronics (http://www.amazon.com/Player-Premium-DP-300F-SP-50-60Hz-Japanese/dp/B000EQHY2M/ref=sr_1_21?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1384612273&sr=1-21&keywords=denon+turntables)

Denon DP-300F Turntable Review | Best Turntables (http://best-turntables.com/denon-dp-300f-turntable-review/)

[MusicDirector]

My take is in agreement with Rob. Since Matt is just wanting to get into vinyl I also suggest keeping within budget and starting easy. I would also agree to be careful not getting caught in making a bunch of lateral moves by going from a budget table to and entry level Rega, Music Hall, etc. If he ends up loving vinyl the better idea would be to use the budget rig while saving up for a nice $1300+ table and nice preamp or something to make the leap. That would be far more cost effective than spending a ton of money jumping from lily pad to lily pad moving sideways in the pond.
Since I am out of the vinyl scene now I think I've said about all I can on this.

[NorthStar]

Or, Matt can also ask advice over at WBF; they have several analog (TT) experts over there. ...And he's already a member. :)

[Matt715]

Last night I ran across a new company called U-Turn Audio (https://ben-carter-lye4.squarespace.com/) that got their start through Kickstarter. Their business model is making affordable, no frills turntables so everyone can afford to get into vinyl. So far they have two models: The Orbit Basic (https://ben-carter-lye4.squarespace.com/store/orbit-basic-turntable-black) which features a standard platter and Ortofon Omega for $179 and the Orbit Plus (https://ben-carter-lye4.squarespace.com/store/orbit-plus-turntable-black) which features an acrylic platter and Ortofon OM-5e for $279.

Since these tables have just hit the market, I couldn't find any meaningful reviews on them. I did run across a post saying that ToneAudio Magazine is going to have a review of the Basic in next month's issue and said that, "Its actually pretty good. We were all surprised at the final product."

What do you turntable gurus think?

[ohbythebay]

Last night I ran across a new company called U-Turn Audio (https://ben-carter-lye4.squarespace.com/) that got their start through Kickstarter. Their business model is making affordable, no frills turntables so everyone can afford to get into vinyl. So far they have two models: The Orbit Basic (https://ben-carter-lye4.squarespace.com/store/orbit-basic-turntable-black) which features a standard platter and Ortofon Omega for $179 and the Orbit Plus (https://ben-carter-lye4.squarespace.com/store/orbit-plus-turntable-black) which features an acrylic platter and Ortofon OM-5e for $279.

Since these tables have just hit the market, I couldn't find any meaningful reviews on them. I did run across a post saying that ToneAudio Magazine is going to have a review of the Basic in next month's issue and said that, "Its actually pretty good. We were all surprised at the final product."

What do you turntable gurus think?

DONT. I can't say this on ANOTHER board for fear of being chastised. Its a toy.

If you want a really nice legacy table, PM me. I'll shop you one on EBAY, give you the link , and you can grab it. I can't 100% guarantee but I am 95% sure I can get you one trouble free. And help you get it setup. EXAMPLE...

This puppy is a performer
Pioneer PL 600 2 Restored 1979 Quartz Locked Full Automatic Turntable M75 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pioneer-PL-600-2-Restored-1979-Quartz-Locked-Full-Automatic-Turntable-M75-/261322504794?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item3cd808fa5a)

Vintage Sansui Fr 3060 Turntable | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Sansui-FR-3060-Turntable-/251370728564?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item3a86dcec74)

Pioneer PL 530 1978 Turntable Optional Stanton Headshell 681 Eee Excellent | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/PIONEER-PL-530-1978-Turntable-Optional-STANTON-Headshell-681-EEE-EXCELLENT-/400609182353?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item5d462b0291)

Pioneer PL 115 Turntable Auto Return Belt Drive Reconditioned Original Box OM | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pioneer-PL-115-Turntable-Auto-Return-Belt-Drive-Reconditioned-Original-Box-OM-/121201112957?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item1c3826377d)

Marantz 6100 Turntable Auto Return Mint Works Perfect Record Player | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/MARANTZ-6100-TURNTABLE-AUTO-RETURN-MINT-WORKS-PERFECT-RECORD-PLAYER-/141112683070?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item20daf8aa3e)

Marantz 6300 Turn Table Professionally Serviced | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Marantz-6300-Turn-table-Professionally-serviced-/291015593954?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item43c1e18fe2)

BARGAINS

Vintage Pioneer PL 115D Turntable w Grado FC Cartridge Works Great Free SHIP | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Pioneer-PL-115D-Turntable-W-GRADO-FC-Cartridge-Works-Great-FREE-SHIP-/301017033801?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item4616036c49)

All Original Pioneer PL 518 Direct Drive Automatic Turntable No Reserve | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/All-Original-Pioneer-PL-518-Direct-Drive-Automatic-Turntable-NO-RESERVE-/111211399782?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item19e4b74a66)

JVC JL A40 Turntable Professional Direct Drive Japanese See Video | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/JVC-JL-A40-Turntable-Professional-Direct-Drive-Japanese-See-Video-/331054017862?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item4d145b6d46)

The list goes on and on...I love DUAL turntables but they can have issues that the average Joe should not have to deal with. Thorens makes AWESOME tables but again, that's a hit or miss thing...some are superpb...but if not, they can be pricey to work

[Matt715]

I appreciate the candid response. :) I thought the tonearm looked a bit suspect but I really have no clue. I like their idea of making a no frills TT for the masses but it seemed almost too good to be true.

There are some really nice TTs in those links on eBay. Honestly, I'd be happy to own any one of them. As I said in your other thread for me, I put a WTB ad up on CL and I'm going to see if I have any bites locally. If I don't in a week or so I'll probably take you up on your offer.

[NorthStar]

Matt, I would put my trust in Rob. :)

[Jack]

Rob

You might want to see if you spy anything over on BT.

[ohbythebay]

Rob

You might want to see if you spy anything over on BT.

:D I checked....LOL

[MusicDirector]

Bad idea buying a table off ebay in my opinion. I've read hundreds of accounts where the table arrives busted to pieces and that's for starters. Be very careful.

[NorthStar]

I'm kind of siding with Eric on that one; with special emphasis on "carefulness".

And without firm assurance that one cannot be careful enough, ....

[ohbythebay]

I understand the reticence on ebay...But I can honestly say out of 20+ purchased, I have only had 1 damaged in transit, 1 not as advertised. BOTH case, my money was recouped easily. I always tell them how it should be packed and like I said, I prescreen. You can often tell when you are dealing with someone who KNOWS versus the guy who thinks "throw it in a box with peanuts - or newspaper and it will be ffine".

:)

[NorthStar]

I understand the reticence on ebay...But I can honestly say out of 20+ purchased, I have only had 1 damaged in transit, 1 not as advertised. BOTH case, my money was recouped easily. I always tell them how it should be packed and like I said, I prescreen. You can often tell when you are dealing with someone who KNOWS versus the guy who thinks "throw it in a box with peanuts - or newspaper and it will be ffine".

:)

It's a big world (eBay world) out there Rob, and not everyone is as vigilant as you are.

[Matt715]

After some searching and luck, I managed to find a minty one owner Pioneer PL-530 on Craigslist. The owner also threw in 10 LPs to get my library started. The only downside is that it was a 5 hour round trip to go and get it, but I didn't mind the drive since it was a nice day.

I want to thank everyone for their input and give a special thanks to Rob (Ohbythebay), for his patience and expertise.

Here's a quick cellphone pic of it playing The Dark Side of the Moon:



3890

[NorthStar]

----- Wooooo... :lookatthat:

[dlb2]

Nice table Matt. Enjoy!

[ohbythebay]

SWEEEET Table...A classic with awesome specs and track record...With the right cart...definitely high end !

Pioneer PL-530 Owners Manual, Service Manual, Schematics, Free Download | Vinyl Engine (http://www.vinylengine.com/library/pioneer/pl-530.shtml)

[Mikado463]

Nice fine Matt, she's a beauty, enjoy spinning your 'black pizza' !!

[Jack]

Great find Matt. Looks like a Stanton or Pickering cartridge was included. Make sure that stylus is clean and in good shape before you play it too much. Since both branch's of that original company have been out of business for decades, finding new NOS NY styli is getting harder and more expensive. The only legitimate dealer I know of with stock left is in the UK and they are raising prices all the time. If you need help finding a new replacement stylus let me know.

[Petro85]

Nice!!! Congrats!!!

[Matt715]

Thanks for the compliments, everyone.

Jack, it has a Stanton 680 EE on it. Currently it doesn't sound so hot but I'm not going to be too quick to pass judgement until I have a chance to clean and check out the setup of the arm and stylus. From what I've been told, it has been sitting in a closet for a very long time. Unfortunately, I'm not going to have much of a chance to play with it this week due to the holiday. If I can't get the cartridge sounding decent, I'm just going to get something better which was my plan anyway. I just don't have the funds to do it right until after the holidays.

[Jack]

Matt

Go to the Dollar Store or similar and buy a plain original Magic Eraser and not any of the advanced or scented kind and cut out a square of it and dip the stylus gently down into it straight up and down. If several cleanings of that and an check of overhang and alignment don't make it sound any better let me know. That is a great legendary cartridge and a broadcast industry standard for decades. It will retrieve exactly what is on the LP if the stylus is good.

[NorthStar]

Thanks for the compliments, everyone.

Jack, it has a Stanton 680 EE on it. Currently it doesn't sound so hot but I'm not going to be too quick to pass judgement until I have a chance to clean and check out the setup of the arm and stylus. From what I've been told, it has been sitting in a closet for a very long time. Unfortunately, I'm not going to have much of a chance to play with it this week due to the holiday. If I can't get the cartridge sounding decent, I'm just going to get something better which was my plan anyway. I just don't have the funds to do it right until after the holidays.

Black Friday could be a good day perhaps to get that brand new shiny cartridge. :)

[Jack]

He would have to spend a pretty good amount to get better than the cartridge he has with a new OEM stylus.

[NorthStar]

Shape she's in; 30X magnifier to observe the stylus' condition.

[Matt715]

So what am I looking for?


3896

[ohbythebay]

Matt

Go to the Dollar Store or similar and buy a plain original Magic Eraser and not any of the advanced or scented kind and cut out a square of it and dip the stylus gently down into it straight up and down. If several cleanings of that and an check of overhang and alignment don't make it sound any better let me know. That is a great legendary cartridge and a broadcast industry standard for decades. It will retrieve exactly what is on the LP if the stylus is good.

Magic eraser is great (its what I use) but good for maintenance, not a cleaning if its gunked. He would need a real stylus cleaner (just ask Jeff...lol)

Even viewing under a microscope, he'd have to know what to look for in terms of stylus wear.

I recommended an AT440Mla (to bring out the detail) as he found the sound a bit pushed back (I found the same with the same Stanton,,,nice, warm, but not as detailed ). Not knocking the Stanton (please don't take it that way) but different carts please different people.
http://www.lpgear.com/product/ATC05.html

A Denon 110 HOMC might be nice also though I can only recommend it second hand, not personal experience.
http://www.lpgear.com/product/DENONDL110.html

[NorthStar]

Rob is dead on above.

* That stylus is quite dirty (looks more like dirt than heavy gunk though): Magic Eraser is an indispensable tool for TT lovers. ...There are other methods too to remove that sticky, gummy (gunk) stuff; stylus' carpet cleaner, isopropyl alcohol but you have to be extremely careful to no wet the boron cantilever (shank, or shaft). ...Liquid solution stylus cleaner.
{High concentrated isopropyl alcohol can dislodge the diamond from the cantilever by weakening the glue that holds it.}

The two cartridges that Rob just mentioned are two very good ones for the price. ...I believe that we did mention them before.

But clean that stylus now from that Stanton 680 EE. Be gentle, be patient, work methodically and carefully; but you should be able to reinvigorate life to it. Don't play any LPs till the job is well done.
Post a picture again when you think she's ready: => You're looking for a perfectly shaped and clean diamond, long and sharp.

Some' like this:


http://i797.photobucket.com/albums/yy252/jimreeves1/680c.jpg
http://i797.photobucket.com/albums/yy252/jimreeves1/680a.jpg
http://i797.photobucket.com/albums/yy252/jimreeves1/680b.jpg

[ohbythebay]

GREAT SHOTS BOB !!! Really a good example for someone on what their diamond and cantilever should look like. Personally for the deeper cleaning (regularly) I use the original discwasher stylus cleaner. Two drops of liquid on that brush, pull forward forward forward and CLEAN. :exciting:

I have this kit
Discwasher Zerostat Record Cleaning Kit Plus Bonus Carbon Fiber Brush | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/DISCWASHER-ZEROSTAT-RECORD-CLEANING-KIT-PLUS-BONUS-CARBON-FIBER-BRUSH-/271310330986?pt=US_Vinyl_Record_Cleaning&hash=item3f2b5b1c6a)

Only use the stylus cleaner and dust brush. I don't clean albums with it.

The new version
Discwasher Stylus Care System ? audiophile (http://www.audiophile.com/products/discwasher-stylus-care-system)

[Petro85]

Yes , really nice shots Bob!!!

[NorthStar]

I didn't take the shots; but they're still from a Stanton 680 EE cartridge and stylus; a clean one to help Matt in what he's looking for.

Rob is the one who gives all the right ingredients for proper maintenance of your TT and cart.
Me I'm just a supporter that's all.

_______________

>>> You have to be truly dedicated to maintain a proper running analog turntable rig; and all that jazz.
It's not for everyone; or everyone can do it but not everyone to the same higher level.
I have the greatest respect for analog music and turntables and records; they are deep in my blood, even if today I am more a digital man.
* Just don't tell me that one is superior to the other one because it ain't true; they're simply different, a different musical experience, no more no less.
Everyone smart enough knows that, and they have both systems so they can expand their musical chords.

[ohbythebay]

Hmm..Thanks Bob !!! Think I'll take some USB Microscope shots of a cart I am breaking in (AT440Mla) ..I'll do before and after shots...should not be that dirty though - If at all...Ah...wait...I received a Shure Premium cart with that spare table I bought ..That arrived dirty.

Oh and I am looking at a table to replace that already...Matt got me in the mood for wood ! (No jokes guys) . Not full auto but auto where I need it.

http://www.audioscope.net/images/marantz6100.jpg

[Jack]

Rob

Is that Shure Premium a 75,91 or a 95 body? Also if you are looking for a "wood" TT you might want to look for a JVC QL series, the Denon DP's or a Sanyo Q50.

[Matt715]

Thanks for the great info! Bonus points go to Bob for the pics! :coolyeah: I thought it looked pretty dirty but wow, that's really bad. I haven't played anything on it since the day I got it because I want to make sure everything is correct before I damage anything. It's not like the LPs I got are pristine, but I don't want to damage them any further.

I am going to pick up a Magic Eraser and I am also going to order some of that good stylus cleaner. I'm assuming that when I clean it that I take the stylus off or?

I'm heading out of town for the weekend so I won't get to play around with it until next week. On the plus side, I'll probably be able to hit up a record shop or two to see if I can't pick up a few albums and hopefully take advantage of some black Friday deals.

[MusicDirector]

After some searching and luck, I managed to find a minty one owner Pioneer PL-530 on Craigslist. The owner also threw in 10 LPs to get my library started. The only downside is that it was a 5 hour round trip to go and get it, but I didn't mind the drive since it was a nice day.

I want to thank everyone for their input and give a special thanks to Rob (Ohbythebay), for his patience and expertise.

Here's a quick cellphone pic of it playing The Dark Side of the Moon:



3890

Well done Matt!!! I have a PL530 as well. Nice and weighty, is it not? Weighty is good! Another nice thing about this table is that it's both automatic and manual. Not only is this a good first table,but will be satisfying a bit beyond that.

[MusicDirector]

Thanks for the great info! Bonus points go to Bob for the pics! :coolyeah: I thought it looked pretty dirty but wow, that's really bad. I haven't played anything on it since the day I got it because I want to make sure everything is correct before I damage anything. It's not like the LPs I got are pristine, but I don't want to damage them any further.

I am going to pick up a Magic Eraser and I am also going to order some of that good stylus cleaner. I'm assuming that when I clean it that I take the stylus off or?

I'm heading out of town for the weekend so I won't get to play around with it until next week. On the plus side, I'll probably be able to hit up a record shop or two to see if I can't pick up a few albums and hopefully take advantage of some black Friday deals.

No, you never take the cart off to clean it. Just a dip of the needle into the magic eraser before playing each side is all you need. What's really important as well is clean records. That's a whole separate subject.

[NorthStar]

Record cleaning machines come at several price points; anywhere from few hundred dollars to several thousand dollars.

The best one (imo) is the KLAudio machine ($4,000).

______________



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP3mzyx1TSQ
______________

If you are truly serious about spinning vinyl in a serious "spinning" way, you are simply not! ...If you haven't a KLAudio record cleaning machine; you're just having fun playing records. :)
That's just my own personal/humble and serious opinion though; me opinion.
{I don't have one, I just read about it; Analog Planet.}

[NorthStar]

Thanks for the great info! Bonus points go to Bob for the pics! :coolyeah: I thought it looked pretty dirty but wow, that's really bad. I haven't played anything on it since the day I got it because I want to make sure everything is correct before I damage anything. It's not like the LPs I got are pristine, but I don't want to damage them any further.

I am going to pick up a Magic Eraser and I am also going to order some of that good stylus cleaner.
I'm assuming that when I clean it that I take the stylus off or?

I'm heading out of town for the weekend so I won't get to play around with it until next week. On the plus side, I'll probably be able to hit up a record shop or two to see if I can't pick up a few albums and hopefully take advantage of some black Friday deals.

Nope.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xdxiB6rm2Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZWf6tlvVss

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1k3I_lgXOI

[ohbythebay]

What a great thread...by now MATT is overwhelmed and broke..LOL. Bob, the Shure Premium is yellow...that's all I know.

On a serious note, some tips and pics.

Get that stylus clean until it looks like the pics below (explained) see more at the end of this thread.

Record cleaning - like everything else in this hobby, goes from dirt cheap to Lexus. Dirt cheap method - they can be washed and dried.

Use only COLD water from the tap. Get a paint pad (the type you use for edging) and clean each side with water and put a drop or so of dawn on the paint pad. Go around the album with the pad(circular) and it will not hurt the vinyl. Rinse well, dry with lint free cloth. Now people will say don't use tap water, minerals and such..its okay...its a start. There are a million threads on the net on record cleaning. I even have a video on you tube of a machine I built ...LOL

Okay, stylus cleaning. I LOST the very first picture of just how dirty the Shure stylus was but it took two cleanings so I have the interim and then final. I also have two pictures of my AT440MLa very clean. You will see the difference in the SHURE (conical) versus the AT440MLa (microline square shank)

Still dirty
https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1459760_758910907457707_31109071_n.jpg

Clean
https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1465353_758910987457699_1025644876_n.jpg

AT440 - one view
https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/1474493_758910930791038_1397074849_n.jpg

Another view - gleaming AT440
https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/1453436_758910970791034_1639750281_n.jpg

[MusicDirector]

Record cleaning machines come at several price points; anywhere from few hundred dollars to several thousand dollars.

The best one (imo) is the KLAudio machine ($4,000).

______________


If you are truly serious about spinning vinyl in a serious "spinning" way, you are simply not! ...If you haven't a KLAudio record cleaning machine; you're just having fun playing records. :)
That's just my own personal/humble and serious opinion though; me opinion.
{I don't have one, I just read about it; Analog Planet.}

Sorry, but I'm afraid I must disagree. I know it's not your quote, it's Analog Planet, but that quote about spinning vinyl goes against everything this hobby is about. Listening to vinyl is supposed to be fun. If it isn't then what is it's purpose? Also, let's not scare Matt away from cleaning records by possibly letting him think that you have to get a $4k machine if you only have a handful of records or even 600 records. (If you have 4 digits of records a serious consideration of a KLAudio type machine would be in order). First of all, it is not proven that the $4k KLAudio machine is THE best RCM out there. It is, however one of a number of great RCMs, no doubt about that. What puts it's nose out front for me personally is the reports that it is quiet and fully auto, but I personally could never justify an extra $3300 for that. I can list off other RCMs just as good ranging from $650 to $4k. (I'd love to try a KLAudio for science purposes someday as I have zero interest in owning one, but I don't see that opportunity happening).

[dlb2]

I'm sure Matt will get around to RCM's in due time. Plus there are other threads on that topic already. We shouldn't cloud this one up as well...


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[Jack]

Rob

Does that Premier have a flat bottom or a rounded bottom. Either way you can put a JICO sourced EVG elliptical on if for less than $15 and have a pretty good rock or test cartridge.

[Mikado463]

The best one (imo) is the KLAudio machine ($4,000).
Bob, that thing seems ungodly slooooow ! I know I could easily do two records in that time span with my VPI.

[NorthStar]

You think so Dave, are you in a rush? :D

But the KLAudio, even if slow, does much more than just cleaning your records; it rejuvenates them like you've never heard them before (according to the masters of analog rigs). It is a totally new musical experience; a true concrete difference from before and after cleaning. ...And even compared to other record cleaning machines out there (VPI, etc.) that cost in the $1,000-5,000 range.
==> Just goggle KLAudio, and read reviews, and comments by real owners.

Yes, I know what you mean Dave; but isn't it all part of the rituals? Vinyl is for "slow" people (you know what I mean), and music servers are for ultra fast people.
Slow things are expensive, and fast things are cheaper. ...Except for cars, and women. :D ...Just a way of speech; here regarding RCM.

_______________

I've read Eric's earlier post, and I agree (in part) with what he's saying.
No way Matt is even considering such a financial extravaganza for his analog rig (cost more than ten times just to clean them albums).
The point was to simply mentioning what from my readings I consider the revolutionary record cleaning machine today, and that is all.
I could easily post some links to support my findings, but not here in this thread because Matt is most likely to clean his LPs the old fashion way, which is affordable to him; and Rob and Jack and Jeff are here to help him in that regard.
Me I never owned a record cleaning machine; I did it my own way by hand and it wasn't good. ...So I won't bother to explain my method.

Some affordable ways (free) are easily found online (youtube videos), and they simply use tap water from your regular kitchen sink.

Get it on, from what you can afford, and be in the Holidays spirit (less than a month to go). :)

[Mikado463]

Bob, I understand your point, but as someone who has been into vinyl for fifty plus years my VPI RCM suits me just fine, besides 4k can buy me a lot of new Lp's !! ……….. or perhaps a new shotgun !!

[Loop4fun]

Never in a million years would I have guessed that I would invest $4K for a record cleaning machine. I purchased the Audio Desk a year ago and have never had a moment of buyer's remorse. It's just a pleasure to use. I'm sure the KLaudio unit is as good or better.

Prior to that I had a Spin Clean unit that did a good job, was inexpensive, somewhat slow, but I never used it. The Audio Desk is so convenient and does such a good job, I use it all the time. Push one button and it's cleaned and completely dried a few minutes later.

[NorthStar]

Bob, I understand your point, but as someone who has been into vinyl for fifty plus years my VPI RCM suits me just fine, besides 4k can buy me a lot of new Lp's !! ……….. or perhaps a new shotgun !!

Dave, are you familiar with Michael Fremer's website, Analog Planet, I bet you are.
Also are you in the known of WBF website? ...And some of its high caliber members? ...Mike Lavigne for example. ...Christian.
If you already are I won't provide any links, and if not I'll post some links in that other KLAudio RCM thread I started not too long ago.

Fifty years into vinyl is serious music listening.

* My main interest in life is to discover all the mysteries contained in it, and my hobbies are valid and rewarding (music, cinema, nature, and people).
So that's mainly why we are talking you and I right now; it's a forum that reunites us because of similar hobbies we share in life.
And there are many more people like us, and what each one of us does personally in his life (true reality) is restricted by what we don't do.
And that part of "what we don't do" is the part I'm mainly interested in because some other people they do. I learn from them people, irregardless of if I do or don't do.

Money is not important for me; I'm at a point where I'm way beyond that. I respect equally people who are rich, and people who are poor.
I just want to share with everyone what I learned from life regarding the same hobbies we developed and cherished over our lifetime . ...The music in its best emotional reproduction possible.
...And for all the classes; rich, poor, middle.

See, I'm totally neutral; no bias, no ego. My life is part of everyone's life (we all live on the same planet).

- Your VPI RCM, how much did she cost you? ...Just to check if it's a viable option for Matt. :)

__________

Matt is going to need a phono stage too (phono preamp).

[ohbythebay]

I don't think the VPI is in Matt;s Wheelhouse right now (not after I get through with him anyway...lol)

VPI's run about 400 used, 600+ new...

I would lean Matt toward the spin clean for now...with 10 albums and just shucking out some cash, it might be a good option...

Vinyl Record Cleaner and Washing System | Spin Clean Record Washing System (http://www.spincleanrecordwasher.com/)

[Jack]

I agree, that will work fine for starters.

[MusicDirector]

Bob, I understand your point, but as someone who has been into vinyl for fifty plus years my VPI RCM suits me just fine, besides 4k can buy me a lot of new Lp's !! ……….. or perhaps a new shotgun !!

Same here on the VPI. Oh dear! what would the shot gun be for? The stubborn records that don't clean up? LOL!

[MusicDirector]

I don't think the VPI is in Matt;s Wheelhouse right now (not after I get through with him anyway...lol)

VPI's run about 400 used, 600+ new...

I would lean Matt toward the spin clean for now...with 10 albums and just shucking out some cash, it might be a good option...

Vinyl Record Cleaner and Washing System | Spin Clean Record Washing System (http://www.spincleanrecordwasher.com/)

Absolutely, with just 10 LPs a spin clean is the best choice for now. I'd wait until reaching around 300 to 400 albums before investing in a VPI or what have you. Meanwhile, a spin clean with maybe a homemade vacuum rig will do nicely. It's not the machine that cleans, it's the method and fluids and of course the elimination of said dirts.

[MusicDirector]

Dave, are you familiar with Michael Fremer's website, Analog Planet, I bet you are.
Also are you in the known of WBF website? ...And some of its high caliber members? ...Mike Lavigne for example. ...Christian.
If you already are I won't provide any links, and if not I'll post some links in that other KLAudio RCM thread I started not too long ago.

Fifty years into vinyl is serious music listening.

* My main interest in life is to discover all the mysteries contained in it, and my hobbies are valid and rewarding (music, cinema, nature, and people).
So that's mainly why we are talking you and I right now; it's a forum that reunites us because of similar hobbies we share in life.
And there are many more people like us, and what each one of us does personally in his life (true reality) is restricted by what we don't do.
And that part of "what we don't do" is the part I'm mainly interested in because some other people they do. I learn from them people, irregardless of if I do or don't do.

Money is not important for me; I'm at a point where I'm way beyond that. I respect equally people who are rich, and people who are poor.
I just want to share with everyone what I learned from life regarding the same hobbies we developed and cherished over our lifetime . ...The music in its best emotional reproduction possible.
...And for all the classes; rich, poor, middle.

See, I'm totally neutral; no bias, no ego. My life is part of everyone's life (we all live on the same planet).

- Your VPI RCM, how much did she cost you? ...Just to check if it's a viable option for Matt. :)

__________

Matt is going to need a phono stage too (phono preamp).

I follow the philosophy of don't believe everything you read on the internet. I prefer to verify things for myself as best I can given the opportunity. If I can't verify it, I don't go any further. Of course, I'm also very skeptical with a few drops of cynical. I have to be, it's protection.
In my view, the only importance of money unfortunately, is for things like rent, bills, healthcare, food, etc. With things the way they are one does need to be careful about what one invests in. For those of us outside the audiophile circle, money is hard to come by and we must be wise with it.
As to an RCM for Matt, with only 10 albums, a VPI or any other three digit or more RCM would not be a good investment right now.
As for needing a phono stage, that depends on what he is hooking the table up to. If he is using a good vintage/legacy receiver, he won't need a phono preamp. Otherwise, an ART will suit nicely for now until he can upgrade.

[NorthStar]

Eric, some people you can trust, like Mikey Fremer, Mike Lavigne, Christian (rockitman); with a little bit of salt & pepper.
... And others, you read, still respect, but keep on riding.

With hundred albums or so in one's collection, the KLAudio machine ain't for them.
But for someone with a serious LP collection (5,000-20,000), and with several masters and remasters (best versions; 45rpm, 200gr, 24k gold vinyl, etc.) the KLAudio machine is for them. Them people have a serious analog rig as well.

Matt definitely doesn't fit that last category, neither you, neither I (I still have about 5,000 LPs though), and that, it is what it is. :) ...You assess your target, aim, and pull the trigger in hope of your best shot.

[Mikado463]

Oh dear! what would the shot gun be for?

Other than small game hunting I spend a fair amount of time shooting clay pigeons (Sporting Clays)

[ohbythebay]

Other than small game hunting I spend a fair amount of time shooting clay pigeons (Sporting Clays)

why do they call them sporting clays if they can't fly ? LOL

Happy Thanksgiving...

[Matt715]

I don't think that a $4,000 RCM would ever be in my future! What is in my future is a $4,000 furnace. :( I woke up yesterday and my house was a crisp 51 degrees. After a quick service call, the repair tech said that my furnace is on it's last legs. Oh well!

I would eventually like to get something like a Spin Clean, but right now I'm more interested in getting everything up and running correctly. Baby steps, you know!

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

3925

[ohbythebay]

Oh no !!! Sorry to hear Matt !!! That sucks. Well, on the bright side, new furnaces are VERU efficient and you can get rebates from your gas company and taxes toward efficiency...I know...doesn't help...But hope all works out ok !

[dlb2]

Definitely stinks putting money into that, but on the bright side you won't need to worry about it anymore.


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[MusicDirector]

Eric, some people you can trust, like Mikey Fremer, Mike Lavigne, Christian (rocketman); with a little bit of salt & pepper.
... And others, you read, still respect, but keep on riding.

With hundred albums or so in one's collection, the KLAudio machine ain't for them.
But for someone with a serious LP collection (5,000-20,000), and with several masters and remasters (best versions; 45rpm, 200gr, 24k gold vinyl, etc.) the KLAudio machine is for them. Them people have a serious analog rig as well.

Matt definitely doesn't fit that last category, neither you, neither I (I still have about 5,000 LPs though), and that, it is what it is. :) ...You assess your target, aim, and pull the trigger in hope of your best shot.

I don't know who Mike Lavigne or Christian is, but I may not need to know I would imagine as I am just not into gear beyond what I need and what I have learned as an aside. For me, this hobby is about the music at least 95%. I do not trust Mike Fremer when it comes to purchasing advice. At least he actually takes a hands on approach to reviewing the gear, unlike some other folks. I just tend to disagree with his conclusions. Everything else he's alright in my book, but not the last word.

With 5000 LPs Bob, you do fit into the catagory of a KLAudio machine! I have had unquestionable, fabulous success with my methodology, fluids and VPI, but if I had anywhere near 5000 records I would not want to clean them that way. I'd be dying for a KLAudio or similar.
~Eric

[MusicDirector]

I don't think that a $4,000 RCM would ever be in my future! What is in my future is a $4,000 furnace. :( I woke up yesterday and my house was a crisp 51 degrees. After a quick service call, the repair tech said that my furnace is on it's last legs. Oh well!

I would eventually like to get something like a Spin Clean, but right now I'm more interested in getting everything up and running correctly. Baby steps, you know!

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.



Sorry to hear this Matt. Well, just know for future that used records are very inexpensive as is a Spinclean, so you'll eventually get such items. If you celebrate xmas, you can always throw a Spinclean on your wishlist.
Yes, baby-steps and slow are the best way to do audio! (That way you don't make any or too many lateral moves wasting money).

[NorthStar]

I don't think that a $4,000 RCM would ever be in my future! What is in my future is a $4,000 furnace. :( I woke up yesterday and my house was a crisp 51 degrees. After a quick service call, the repair tech said that my furnace is on it's last legs. Oh well!

I would eventually like to get something like a Spin Clean, but right now I'm more interested in getting everything up and running correctly. Baby steps, you know!

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

3925

Matt, :what: :locked: :offtopic: ...Just kidding; you'd better get into it quick. ...Forget that TT, forget that RCM, forget your hi-fi stereo system, forget everything, just get warm!

Happy Thanksgiving! --- ...to you and all your family.

[NorthStar]

I don't know who Mike Lavigne or Christian is, but I may not need to know I would imagine as I am just not into gear beyond what I need and what I have learned as an aside. For me, this hobby is about the music at least 95%. I do not trust Mike Fremer when it comes to purchasing advice. At least he actually takes a hands on approach to reviewing the gear, unlike some other folks. I just tend to disagree with his conclusions. Everything else he's alright in my book, but not the last word.

Mikey is Mikey; he's a funny guy, and an analog expert. I like Mikey, just the way he is; he's not perfect, but so nobody else. ...And he's got a great sense of humor, and he's not afraid of speaking his own mind. I accept him all off him the way he is, and I respect him of course.
I've been reading him since he first started writing. :)

* Mike Lavigne and Christian are two members from WBF, and are highly calibrated in the turntable domain. ...Everything related. Their analog rigs are top-notch, and all the ingredients surrounding them to make them sound better are there!
I have great respect for them both too. Mike is a very friendly person, generous in his hospitality, very knowledgeable (I learn/learned quite a few from him), and Christian has also an amazing analog rig, and he's a more direct person (doesn't shy of speaking his mind directly). Mike is more diplomatic, more polite, and he's also into digital, big time.
But I love them both equally, that's just the way I am.
...Same for Mikey (Fremer).


With 5000 LPs Bob, you do fit into the catagory of a KLAudio machine! I have had unquestionable, fabulous success with my methodology, fluids and VPI, but if I had anywhere near 5000 records I would not want to clean them that way. I'd be dying for a KLAudio or similar.
~Eric

My albums Eric are the regular type, not the remastered versions (45rpm and all) that some of them cost $50 to $100.
And half of them are used ones (not purchased brand new). ...They are the ones actually who would benefit the most from the KLAudio machine.
Perhaps in the future, when I'm fully retired and have all the time in this world to clean my LPs, lol.
By that time I'll have a World Music Server of the Highest Audio Resolution. ...And I'll be smoking crack! :D

[MusicDirector]

Mikey is Mikey; he's a funny guy, and an analog expert. I like Mikey, just the way he is; he's not perfect, but so nobody else. ...And he's got a great sense of humor, and he's not afraid of speaking his own mind. I accept him all off him the way he is, and I respect him of course.
I've been reading him since he first started writing. :)

* Mike Lavigne and Christian are two members from WBF, and are highly calibrated in the turntable domain. ...Everything related. Their analog rigs are top-notch, and all the ingredients surrounding them to make them sound better are there!
I have great respect for them both too. Mike is a very friendly person, generous in his hospitality, very knowledgeable (I learn/learned quite a few from him), and Christian has also an amazing analog rig, and he's a more direct person (doesn't shy of speaking his mind directly). Mike is more diplomatic, more polite, and he's also into digital, big time.
But I love them both equally, that's just the way I am.
...Same for Mikey (Fremer).



My albums Eric are the regular type, not the remastered versions (45rpm and all) that some of them cost $50 to $100.
And half of them are used ones (not purchased brand new). ...They are the ones actually who would benefit the most from the KLAudio machine.
Perhaps in the future, when I'm fully retired and have all the time in this world to clean my LPs, lol.
By that time I'll have a World Music Server of the Highest Audio Resolution. ...And I'll be smoking crack! :D

I also don't know what WBF is, but again, it's irrelevant.
All my albums are used, regular versions and nothing over $5, but granted I only have about 300. Being handy at cleaning/restoring them provides for more music and having a VPI 16.5 for that amount of records is slightly overkill and about as far as I'll ever need to take it.

[NorthStar]

What's Best Forum (WBF Forum) (http://www.whatsbestforum.com/forum.php)

[Matt715]

Over the weekend I cleaned the stylus the best I could with a magic eraser and a small brush. I would say that it's 75% clean now; not quite as good as Bob's pictures, but at least I can see metal and a sharp point. I finally received my gram scale today and was able to check the rest of the settings. It appears to me that everything is set properly; so why does this thing sound so disappointing? I have no soundstage, no separation, and no treble. It really sounds lousy to my ears.

I am still planning on picking up some Last stylus cleaner so I can thoroughly clean the stylus. I can't imagine it's going to make the difference I need to be happy.

Any ideas?

[ohbythebay]

Time for a new cartridge...or at least a new stylus...clean does not mean its good...

Tell me your budget...I'll list you carts :exciting:

[NorthStar]

Matt, how can you be certain that your stylus is not fully clean? ...It takes only few seconds. ...And not all styluses have the same shape; some are elliptical, others conical, others longer, others shorter, some have more cuts, others less.
But the picture I previously provided is from the same cartridge than yours, so the stylus should also be the exact same.

* With a brand new cartridge (roughly $200), a decent Pioneer vintage turntable (belt drive and in very good condition; about $500-600), a phono preamp section from a decent preamp, all my adjustments from years of knowledge (tracking force, arm adjust, level, speed accurate, etc.), and a brand new album (regular price, and decent music recording); there is simply no way that I can get close to my digital CD player (about $1,200). ...For a good music digital recording, not a bad one from the eighties.

But! I'm no analog expert. I just know enough to set things up enough and running, even by being anal sometimes.
And I've been spinning albums since I was thirteen (45 years). And spinning CDs since 1985 (28 years).

But that's me! And my own life with my own set of ears attached to my own head. :)

[Matt715]

Can I use a safety pin as a new stylus? :skeptical:

I was kind of thinking of the AT-440MLA. Going by what people say about it, it sounds like it might be right up my alley. I tend to like a slightly forward presentation. I wish it was still around $100 like it was a few years ago, but such is life.

Let's say a budget of $200 and see where that gets me. I am hesitant to spend more because again, this is more or less an experiment. I also have to save my pennies for a new furnace.

[Jack]

Matt

If you want to stay with the Stanton/Pickering family of cartridges let me know as I may be able to help. I can point you in the direction of a new NOS replacement or if you want help you from my "rainy day stash" of NOS styli. There are plenty of options out there if you have a budget in mind. Just today I mounted an Acutex 312STR with a Shibata stylus that I bought NIB for under $80 shipped from Italy. It sounds great and a lot like the Stanton/Pickering sound. What you are describing is a clean but worn out stylus. Also check the wiring from the headshell to the cartridge and make sure it is not wired out of phase.

[Matt715]

Matt, how can you be certain that your stylus is not fully clean? ...It takes only few seconds. ...And not all styluses have the same shape; some are elliptical, others conical, others longer, others shorter, some have more cuts, others less.
But the picture I previously provided is from the same cartridge than yours, so the stylus should also be the exact same.

* With a brand new cartridge (roughly $200), a decent Pioneer vintage turntable (belt drive and in very good condition; about $500-600), a phono preamp section from a decent preamp, all my adjustments from years of knowledge (tracking force, arm adjust, level, speed accurate, etc.), and a brand new album (regular price); there is simply no way that I can get close to my digital CD player (about $1,200).

But! I'm no analog expert. I just know enough to set things up enough and running, even by being anal sometimes.
And I've been spinning albums since I was thirteen (45 years). And spinning CDs since 1985 (28 years).

But that's me! And my own life with my own set of ears attached to my own head. :)

That brings me back to the whole "CD vs vinyl" argument. I'm not supposed to compare the sound to a CD, so what is it supposed to sound like? FM radio? AM radio? Again, I've never really heard a budget TT setup besides the Rega room at Axpona; it sounded wonderful for what it was.

I would be happy if I could get it to sound like what I hear from my Squeezebox but ecstatic if it had the detail and huge soundstage that my Oppo has.

Am I expecting too much?

[NorthStar]

Yeah, a clean but worn stylus won't do you any good Matt; time to acquired a brand new spic-and-span one.

Still, there is so much to do; vibrations (keep the TT away from your speakers), install it on a solid platform, the tracking force, the anti-skating, the arm balance, the arm azimuth, the vertical tracking, the horizontal field, the start, the end stop, the middle of the tracking stylus into the grooves, the speed, the speed, the speed, ...
...A new turntable, a new cartridge, a new phono stage, a new pair of phono interconnects, a new RCM, a new remastered LP (180-200gr), a new ready you! ...With a bigger bank account too! :)

Buy some tickets (horse races, lottery, ...), play bingo, play poker, pray god, and get a VPI TT & Lyra cart.

[Matt715]

Matt

If you want to stay with the Stanton/Pickering family of cartridges let me know as I may be able to help. I can point you in the direction of a new NOS replacement or if you want help you from my "rainy day stash" of NOS styli. There are plenty of options out there if you have a budget in mind. Just today I mounted an Acutex 312STR with a Shibata stylus that I bought NIB for under $80 shipped from Italy. It sounds great and a lot like the Stanton/Pickering sound. What you are describing is a clean but worn out stylus. Also check the wiring from the headshell to the cartridge and make sure it is not wired out of phase.

Thanks for the offer- I guess I'm not sure if I should stay with it or not. Is there any way to check to see if my cartridge is any good? I did check the wiring against the info I found over on AK forum; it is correct.

[NorthStar]

That brings me back to the whole "CD vs vinyl" argument. I'm not supposed to compare the sound to a CD, so what is it supposed to sound like? FM radio? AM radio? Again, I've never really heard a budget TT setup besides the Rega room at Axpona; it sounded wonderful for what it was.

The entire analog rig (including amp, preamp, and speakers); how much?


I would be happy if I could get it to sound like what I hear from my Squeezebox but ecstatic if it had the detail and huge soundstage that my Oppo has.

You're dreaming Matt; for that you need to go back to your bank and make a bigger withdrawal.


Am I expecting too much?

It depends. How much do you have left in the bank.

[NorthStar]

Thanks for the offer- I guess I'm not sure if I should stay with it or not. Is there any way to check to see if my cartridge is any good? I did check the wiring against the info I found over on AK forum; it is correct.

With a magnifying jewelry lens (30X), the stylus diamond should be real pointed (sharp as a sewing pin). It should also be in excellent shape; any less than that and time for a replacement, and pronto as it will deteriorate your LPs*.

* That's only one of the issues when buying used LPs.

[Matt715]

The entire analog rig (including amp, preamp, and speakers); how much?



You're dreaming Matt; for that you need to go back to your bank and make a bigger withdrawal.



It depends. How much do you have left in the bank.

Snipped from Stereophile's website:

3965

In Room 806, one word said it all: Rega. Demming the Rega RP8 turntable with Rega Exact 2 cartridge ($3400), Rega Apollo R CD player ($1095), Rega Brio R integrated amp with phono stage ($895), and Rega RS3 floor-standing speakers ($1395/pair), the nattily bow-tied Barnaby Fry of The Sound Organisation was having a ball playing Johnny Adams' From the Heart. The system did best on Adams' voice—the voice was great—but when the blues artist sang, "I can't control the vibrations," I'm afraid he was talking about the limitations of the system's bottom reach and bass control. (For starters, I don't believe power conditioning or special equipment supports were in use.) But on voice and piano, Rega x 4 = very nice.

----

I don't remember them using the TT on the top; I thought it was the one on the second shelf but I could be wrong. When I entered the room, they were playing a CD and, to be honest, it sounded pretty awful. Then the salesman switched to the TT and it became a totally different system. I came away really impressed with what those little speakers could do. The guy sitting in front of me even turned around and commented to me how great it sounded.

[NorthStar]

That's the dose! If you liked it so much so as like a memorable addiction, then you are in the pursuit of that replication (musical experience). :)

You'll go as far as you truly want to go, and the closest is to get the same gear. Some people don't go far enough, and others go way beyond.

* Pretty good you came up as quick as you did with a perfect picture and all the audio components comprising that rig from that event. :cool:

[NorthStar]

One SUPER important thing: The music recording itself (that LP you listened to). ...And then the perfect 'timbre' between all component's synergy at the time and space (that room). ...And your overall mental disposition. ...Not so subtle after all.

* He had a very decent analog rig, and a good LP, and a happy smile.
I bet most people don't have such a nice analog rig. ...Certainly not me, even with roughly 5,000 LPs.

[Jack]

Matt

If you have a DMM you can check the cartridge to see if it meets spec's by testing the positive and negative posts on each side. For the Stanton 68x series you should get a reading of approximately 1300 ohms on each pair. It is rare for a cartridge to go bad unless is has been abused. More than likely the stylus is just worn out. If so you need to decide based on your other equipment what sound profile you like. The Stanton's, which are the Broadcast Industry Standard, are pretty much dead neutral. Other brands have their own flavor. What flavor appeals to you only you know. I like neutral, but others on this forum like Rob, like forward. So in the end it is your call. A properly set up TT will always in my opinion beat a digital source. If you like the more forward sound of the AT's and don't want to spend for their current price then buy a 120E/T for less and you get the same sound profile.

[NorthStar]

Matt, that guy (Barnaby Fry) with the Rega table; was he using a MC or MM cartridge (Exact 2)?
... $3,400 just for the TT & cart? ...That's pretty cheap; just the interconnects can cost more than that.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- :)

[NorthStar]

Matt

If you have a DMM you can check the cartridge to see if it meets spec's by testing the positive and negative posts on each side. For the Stanton 68x series you should get a reading of approximately 1300 ohms on each pair. It is rare for a cartridge to go bad unless is has been abused. More than likely the stylus is just worn out. If so you need to decide based on your other equipment what sound profile you like. The Stanton's, which are the Broadcast Industry Standard, are pretty much dead neutral. Other brands have their own flavor. What flavor appeals to you only you know. I like neutral, but others on this forum like Rob, like forward. So in the end it is your call. A properly set up TT will always in my opinion beat a digital source.
If you like the more forward sound of the AT's and don't want to spend for their current price then buy a 120E/T for less and you get the same sound profile.

I used that one (last) myself. ...And a Pioneer TT (decent one, PL-sometin'), ...and did not rock my boat like my Rotel CD player. Not even half way.

[ohbythebay]

Can I use a safety pin as a new stylus? :skeptical:

I was kind of thinking of the AT-440MLA. Going by what people say about it, it sounds like it might be right up my alley. I tend to like a slightly forward presentation. I wish it was still around $100 like it was a few years ago, but such is life.

Let's say a budget of $200 and see where that gets me. I am hesitant to spend more because again, this is more or less an experiment. I also have to save my pennies for a new furnace.

You will either

Love the AT440Mla
or
forget vinyl

There is really nothing unlikeable about it (unless you are a high end guy into 3k carts...lol)
https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/1476254_762453247103473_41761438_n.jpg

or the 120/E fro quite a bit less
Audio-Technica AT120E/T 1/2" Mount Cartridge .3 x .7 mil | 240-5536 (http://www.parts-express.com/audio-technica-at120e-t-1-2-mount-turntable-phono-cartridge-3-x-7-mil--240-5536?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=pla)


1) Vinyl and CD - not a valid comparison
2) The quality of the album you are testing..there are good recordings and so so recordings

When properly setup and a working cart, I never met anyone that didn;t like the sound though SOME might prefer digital...

Hate to send you down a rabbit hole (in terms of money)..if you don't like vinyl you can EASILY get what you paid for the PL530

[Matt715]

Matt

If you have a DMM you can check the cartridge to see if it meets spec's by testing the positive and negative posts on each side. For the Stanton 68x series you should get a reading of approximately 1300 ohms on each pair. It is rare for a cartridge to go bad unless is has been abused. More than likely the stylus is just worn out. If so you need to decide based on your other equipment what sound profile you like. The Stanton's, which are the Broadcast Industry Standard, are pretty much dead neutral. Other brands have their own flavor. What flavor appeals to you only you know. I like neutral, but others on this forum like Rob, like forward. So in the end it is your call. A properly set up TT will always in my opinion beat a digital source. If you like the more forward sound of the AT's and don't want to spend for their current price then buy a 120E/T for less and you get the same sound profile.

I tested my cart with my trusty Fluke and the right side has a resistance of 1242 ohms and the left side 1238 ohms. I think I agree with everyone's diagnosis of a worn out stylus.

I guess I have a decision to make; try one of the AT cartridges or fix what I've got. I guess I have some reading to do. :skeptical:

[NorthStar]

Fix what Matt? ...The fix is simply to get a new cart.

[Jack]

Bob

Why would you buy a new cartridge if that one tests fine and just needs a stylus. If he wants another sound profile then that is another matter. That cartridge was an industry standard for decades along with the V-15. Very few modern MM's will touch it with a new OEM stylus.

[Matt715]

I made some progress! :woot:

After busting out my magnifying glass and really inspecting the stylus under some good light, it doesn't look all that bad, or dirty, for that matter. I wish I had a super magnifying glass so I could take an even closer look at it.

As an experiment, I popped the brush out of the cartridge redid all of the setup. The second that needle hit the record I could tell it was different; I actually have a decent soundstage, good separation, and some top end. Comparing (here I go again) Pink Floyd's Money to the CD version, the top end detail is recessed and my bass is loose and tubby sounding; midrange and vocals are pretty close.

I set the tracking force at 1.25 grams and anti-skate at the same. I also removed the extra counter weight that was at the end of the arm, which I'm guessing was there to help compensate for the brush. Do these settings sound correct? What effect would adjusting the tracking weight higher or lower have on the sound? How about anti-skate? Do small adjustments make big impacts?

[NorthStar]

Bob

Why would you buy a new cartridge if that one tests fine and just needs a stylus. If he wants another sound profile then that is another matter. That cartridge was an industry standard for decades along with the V-15. Very few modern MM's will touch it with a new OEM stylus.

Ok, but Matt said he wants a little more forwardness in the sound.

[Jack]

Matt

Try bumping the VTF up to 1.5 and drop the AS to 1 and see if that helps. If you are still having problems on the frequency extremes then that stylus is probably toast. None of my Stantons sound like you are describing.

[NorthStar]

I made some progress! :woot:

After busting out my magnifying glass and really inspecting the stylus under some good light, it doesn't look all that bad, or dirty, for that matter. I wish I had a super magnifying glass so I could take an even closer look at it.

As an experiment, I popped the brush out of the cartridge redid all of the setup. The second that needle hit the record I could tell it was different; I actually have a decent soundstage, good separation, and some top end. Comparing (here I go again) Pink Floyd's Money to the CD version, the top end detail is recessed and my bass is loose and tubby sounding; midrange and vocals are pretty close.

I set the tracking force at 1.25 grams and anti-skate at the same. I also removed the extra counter weight that was at the end of the arm, which I'm guessing was there to help compensate for the brush. Do these settings sound correct? What effect would adjusting the tracking weight higher or lower have on the sound? How about anti-skate? Do small adjustments make big impacts?

Just follow the manufacturer's recommendation Matt. ...Tracking force.
- For anti-skate, adjust by look (arm resting in position horizontally suspended/balanced).

Let's see what Jack, Rob, and Jeff say.

* Get a 30X magnifier, cost only couple dollars. I got mine at a dollar store.

[ohbythebay]

Yup...I thought that model Stanton was 1.75 no brush, 2.2 with ?

Matt, also make sure your arm is level (cart level) if it sits ASS up or ASS down, that is a problem (called VTA)

[NorthStar]

I wish I was living close by Matt.

[Jack]

Rob

The VTF is 1.25 to 1.75 with no brush and plus 1g with the brush. I have never had to run the AS on a Stanton or Pickering at equal to the VTF. Using a blank LP, it usually comes out to about 75% of VTF. If he has a "Flabby Bottom and No Top" then the stylus while now clean probably has the facets worn off and is flat spotted on the sides. Kind of hard to tell if he likes the sound under those conditions. But if he wants more forward then the choices are out there for a price. The AT's, the Denon DL-110 or the Ortofon OM-10. I own all of them and the best of the bunch, if loaded correctly is the Denon. If Matt doesn't want to get into "loading" then the other two are better choices.

[Matt715]

I tried a VTF of 1.5 and 1.75; the latter tightened up the bass a lot but it is still a lot more loose than what I am used to. The treble is still recessed but that might also just be the record or just the cartridge itself. The funny thing is that at the end of Money, I can hear the lady talking about the cruisin' for a bruisin' quite well; maybe even better than my CD...

I tried the anti-skate at a few different spots but I couldn't hear any difference at all.

[Matt715]

I was reading about the Denon quite a bit. It seems that people either love the sound or hate it. The way people describe the sound as being warm has scared me away from it a bit; the thing is, being bright, warm, neutral, as everyone knows, is a matter of opinion. I wish I had someone close by to compare with. I guess I can always wait and see what my dad's system sound like at Christmas once we get it up and running.

[ohbythebay]

I tried a VTF of 1.5 and 1.75; the latter tightened up the bass a lot but it is still a lot more loose than what I am used to. The treble is still recessed but that might also just be the record or just the cartridge itself. The funny thing is that at the end of Money, I can hear the lady talking about the cruisin' for a bruisin' quite well; maybe even better than my CD...

I tried the anti-skate at a few different spots but I couldn't hear any difference at all.

I wish I had an AT cart to send you ...on the Pioneer....BLISS. You seem to have the hang of aligning, etc. now so with a new cart, I think that would do it. There is NO WAY to know how many hours are on the Stanton.

Heck, I could send you a SHURE (offered to Doug but he didn't need it) pre-mounted just for you to hear..

Interested ? PM me your full name and address

Rob

[Jack]

Matt

With the Denon if you try to run it at 47k you will either love it or hate it. At the standard 47k I hated it, but when I loaded it down to 10k I liked it. So the bottom line is that not all cartridges work at 47k no matter what the manufactures say. In fact most don't. A good Stanton/Pickering stylus will sound a lot different than what you are hearing now with a worn out one, but it will not be forward. If that is what you want and are working on a budget then look for the best price you can find on an AT-120 E/T or an Ortofon OM-10. Both are slightly forward with the Ortofon being less so. If you want to try the Denon let me know as I have a spare NIB that I would part with.

[Matt715]

I just took a crash course in loading. :) I'm not so sure that is something that I want to tackle at this point in time, but I don't see any reason why I couldn't.

If I am understanding how loading works, you either found that the Denon was too bright or too weak in the low end? The article I read didn't really say how changing the impedance changes the sound (frequency response?). Does lowering the impedance boost the lower frequencies or cut the high frequencies?

[ohbythebay]

Sigh...another site is guilty of this too..

Let Matt walk please. Forget loading and record cleaning machines. He is not even sure he wants to be in vinyl. Forget ancient Stanton's and cart loading.

let him get a decent new cart, get things aligned and see where he goes from there....we all started somewhere..

[NorthStar]

Amen.

[Jack]

Of course, let's just point him to something with the Audio Technica name brand on it and all will be right in the vinyl world. At least from some perspective. Matt, I will respond to your pm shortly.

[ohbythebay]

Of course, let's just point him to something with the Audio Technica name brand on it and all will be right in the vinyl world. At least from some perspective. Matt, I will respond to your pm shortly.

Jack,

Please don't take offense. It doesn't have to be AT ..it needs to be new. Based on discussions with Matt, the sound he likes is more forward and detailed. That says AT or Shure. I could recommend a $99 Sumiko Pearl but that is closer to the Stanton sound. As I don't have much experience with Denon's, I could not honestly point him to those with first hand knowledge. Honestly, this was not about "I know better than Jack". I respect your input. But having owned a variety of these and listening to what Matt is looking for, I would steer him away from the stantons/pickering or sumiko.

I sent him this and he LIKED the sound
https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=D25B243EF6E53584!854&authkey=!AG0jzZEHPTZfjlg&ithint=file%2c.wav

That's an AT440MLa

So its not about don't listen to Jack. Its about what I think Matt will enjoy.

And lest anyone think I talk out my a$$ - Carts of mine tested in just the past 20 months - in newest to oldest order and you will note that the majority of newest are AT for a reason.
https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/1000463_674209665927832_229964493_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/7793_646860721996060_1479213085_n.jpg

https://scontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/936932_641075242574608_73395827_n.jpg

https://scontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/935456_639229796092486_783828248_n.jpg

https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/67856_627751697240296_563516315_n.jpg

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[Jack]

Rob

No offense taken. I know before I enter into any vinyl related thread you are involved in on either forum what your tastes and bias' are and that you will eventually recommend based on that. In that post you "sighed" at I mentioned four cartridges. Three of which were new and gave him "my opinion" of how each one sounded and options for changing that sound if he liked or leave it alone if he liked. I have yet to recommend what I prefer, as I understand he wouldn't like it and to do it correctly would cost more than he wants to spend. Your personal favorite is also more than he wants to spend by almost double. With the Shure M97xe out of the equation and AT's huge price increases over the past year the under $100 market is very sparse. Hell even the Sanyo/Fisher MG-29(Red Ed) would meet his needs, but I couldn't find a place with one in stock. Many of these under $100 cartridges have faults and many of them are just rebadged versions of the same thing, ie. the MG-29 is being sold as a Goldring Elecktra and a Music Hall Tracker for $100 instead of the $18 on Ebay.

As to your list of previously owned cartridges, I still own everything you showed except for the AT LOMC's and the Pearl. The descriptions of the Pearl don't suit me and I didn't consider the AT-OC9, because I wont buy from LP Gear.

If Matt likes the 440mla he would like the DL-110 at standard loading too, as they are very similar. In both cases his budget will have to expand.

[ohbythebay]

Thanks Jack...didn't want to offend at all.

And the DL-110 sounds like a good deal - Less expensive than the AT, HOMC and VERY well regarded. I wish in my searches I had tried one..

Just so you know, my sigh was not on your recommendations...I just think we sometimes overwhelm newbies ..LOL

Happens MUCH more elsewhere if you know what I mean.

Glad we are at peace (and I am not biased, I just show favorites...LOL)

[NorthStar]

* AT-120E = roughly $100
* Shure M44G = roughly $70
* AT-95E = roughly $40

* Shure M97XE
* Grado Black

-> Matt can do some research into those above.

[Matt715]

If you check out post #136, I actually said I was willing to spend $200 if I needed to. :)

Jack is sending me a generic stylus to try on my Stanton so I can at least try a known good stylus and get an idea of if I like the general Stanton sound. I realize it's not going to sound the same as the real deal, but at least I'll have an idea.

I haven't knocked any cartridge out of the running yet, but that audio file that Rob posted really has affirmed what my research has suggested as a nice detailed cartridge. I played the file through my system using my AVR's DAC and it sounded really nice to my ears. It's pretty much the sound I was looking for, and I would be happy if I heard similar coming from my own system.

At this point I would like to keep things simple. I do enjoy experimenting and trying new things; after all that is part of what this hobby is about to me, but I would like to start off slow and simple before I start modifying or trying exotic things.

On another note, would it be in my best interest to pick up a test LP? From what I gather, it sounds like it would help me get things dialed in better than what I am doing now.

[Jack]

Matt

The stylus is on the way. If you decide to use the brush, use the NOS one as it is horsehair and the new ones are some plastic material like a cheap paintbrush. Also add one gram to account for the brush. These styli from my testing need more VTF anyway than the OEM ones, so start at 1.5/2.5 and work up from there.

[NorthStar]

I've never used a brush in front of my cart myself; I don't feel good about it. Others might though, it's their prerogative.

* It looks to me that with all the minutiae adjustments, such a brush will counteract. ...But I might be wrong; it's just a feeling.

[NorthStar]

If you check out post #136, I actually said I was willing to spend $200 if I needed to. :)

Oh yeah, I remember. :)


..., but that audio file that Rob posted really has affirmed what my research has suggested as a nice detailed cartridge. I played the file through my system using my AVR's DAC and it sounded really nice to my ears. It's pretty much the sound I was looking for, and I would be happy if I heard similar coming from my own system.

The AT440MLa cart. :)


On another note, would it be in my best interest to pick up a test LP? From what I gather, it sounds like it would help me get things dialed in better than what I am doing now.

I let Jack, or Rob answer that one.

[Matt715]

Thanks Jack! I'll try it without the brush and I'll report back as soon as I get it.

[NorthStar]

Just for fun. :audiophile:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ky54966ZqI

[Matt715]

Baby Elephant Walk.. that's great. :lol: Thanks for posting it, Bob.

[Jack]

Matt

I know my opinion of the 2M Red and the reviewers, but to me it is one of the worst cartridges I have heard in almost 50 years of vinyl. If you like the AT sound then either the 120E/T or the 44mla would be a good bet for you. They are both the same body and the styli are interchangeable so you can start with the 120 E/T and just buy a different stylus later. I load the AT's from current production down to 38kohms, but leave the older ones from the 70-80's alone as they are more neutral. The only other cartridge that I have heard or have in my possession that sounds similar to the AT's at standard loading is the Denon. It is priced retail between the other two so you could save a couple of bucks that way. I am pretty sure if you search at AK or check here you can find a clip to listen to. Parallel Resistive Loading (http://daveyw.edsstuff.org/vinyl/loading/). On Davey's site the clip is of the DL-160 which sounds almost the same.

[ohbythebay]

@ Bob, okay due...that was crazy...I didn't know at first if they were going to play at the same time, lol...

The 2M was recorded at 1 to 2db higher. The AT handled the brassy sounds better where it broke up and was actually nerve racking on the Red. I think the AT had better soundstage too but its also comparing a $99 cart (RED) to a $200 very well made AT cart.

@Matt...as to test albums...whew..I don't think you need to be there yet dude. I have several that I use for several things. But we are talking tweaking (for me) the last 1% after I am 99% there. We need to get you 99% there first..LOL

Here is another needle drop for you (James Taylor) ... Not the same kind of test as the last I sent you but should sound great when Carley joins in at 1:45 and the guitars separation at the bridge...

https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=D25B243EF6E53584!969&authkey=!ABHwLcc4vvFgzfQ&ithint=file%2c.wav

[Jack]

Rob

Even though I am not a "fan" of current production AT's, the 400mla is in a completely different class than the 2M Red. To my ears even the AT-95 is better for half the price. As to test LP's never owned one. You can do the setup you need with your ears and a decent protractor. Many swear by Conrad's Arc Protractor on VE and I can see where it would work the best if you know or measure the spindle to pivot distance for the tonearm.

[ohbythebay]

Jack..agree. The test records I have are cool..BUT...found them to be little use although I did do "some" fine tuning here and there. Especially dial in anti-skate...but yeah, don't want to send Matt down that path...LOL :rolleyes:

[Jack]

Yes simple is better. If he could find a Technics Sl-1100 headshell which has the fixed Stevenson alignment and you just move the sled to the proper overhang then that would be the best solution. I have bought about a dozen of them over the last two years as it was easier on me with my "old age eyesight." This is an example.

Vintage Audio 8 6g Technics SH 98 Headshell Shell | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-AUDIO-8-6g-Technics-SH-98-Headshell-shell-/261330204545?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276)

[ohbythebay]

Yes simple is better. If he could find a Technics Sl-1100 headshell which has the fixed Stevenson alignment and you just move the sled to the proper overhang then that would be the best solution. I have bought about a dozen of them over the last two years as it was easier on me with my "old age eyesight." This is an example.

Vintage Audio 8 6g Technics SH 98 Headshell Shell | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-AUDIO-8-6g-Technics-SH-98-Headshell-shell-/261330204545?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276)

That's cool !!! Does it have marks for overhang ?

Only issue..sometimes overhang specs are wrong !!! Drives me nuts. My Pioneer PL-500 says 49mm...Set it there, its wrong...set it at approx. 51mm and check alignment....right there.

As I don't switch tables or carts much anymore(yeah right) , not much of an issue, but I think those headshells are cool !!! May try one...Thanks !!!

[Jack]

Rob

No marks, have to use a ruler or some other device. I use a marked 3x5 card that I have cut with a T-Square.

[Matt715]

I finally received the stylus today and...:exciting:huge improvement! I lost the loose/tubby bass and I have gained a very nice soundstage. The highs are much improved but still a tad tame for my taste. All in all, I agree with Jack's statement of it being neutral sounding. I currently have it set at a 1.5g VTF with no brush and 2 for anti-skate. The one thing I noticed as soon as the needle dropped was now I hear a rumble on the lead in (the very outer part of the record) and some noise during a silent part. Is this what is referred to as rumble?

[NorthStar]

The pickup head registers the running motor.

[Jack]

Matt

Glad you finally got it, damn that took a long time, and yes what you are hearing is basically the Stanton/Pickering sound to a point. A NOS stylus will get you a little more high end and no sibilance, but it will never sound like an AT or even a Denon Dl-110. In the end you have to decide which sound profile suits you, but at least you see to a point what the Stanton could be capable of. Let it run in a little more and see if it opens up some. I don't think that stylus has much more than a dozen hours on it if that. If you haven't you might look into whether or not the main bearing needs lubricating and if so buy some sewing machine oil from Walmart.

[Matt715]

4451

[ohbythebay]

Hahahha..You went with the 440Mla...How do you like it ?

You can see whats sitting on my Pioneer...

https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t1/1551751_787842401231224_1502406160_n.jpg

[Matt715]

It has a much larger soundstage and the top end is extended with lots of detail. However, the bass, while tight, is a lot less than the Stanton cart. I literally put it on about an hour ago and have run just a few tracks from various LPs to see what it sounds like. I am curious to hear what it sounds like after I get some hours on it.

Random question about aligning it: Do I align it by the needle guard or the cart body? I used the needle guard but I'm not so sure that is the best thing to use. I'm not sure how I would be able to see the front of the body with the guard on it, or am I going about it all wrong? :skeptical:

[ohbythebay]

It has a much larger soundstage and the top end is extended with lots of detail. However, the bass, while tight, is a lot less than the Stanton cart. I literally put it on about an hour ago and have run just a few tracks from various LPs to see what it sounds like. I am curious to hear what it sounds like after I get some hours on it.

Random question about aligning it: Do I align it by the needle guard or the cart body? I used the needle guard but I'm not so sure that is the best thing to use. I'm not sure how I would be able to see the front of the body with the guard on it, or am I going about it all wrong? :skeptical:

You are on the right track...use the cart body and if the stylus guard (which should be straight) lines up ..good. Remember, it doesn't have to align ON a line, just parallel to a line. So for example, if it is 1mm BEFORE a line, that is fine as long as it is straight

The bass will bloom..AT440Mla takes about 40 to 60 hours of breakin...The highs smooth out and the bass blooms...Congrats

Picture of how alignment works. Dot in the center is stylus tip...cart body is thicker and thin lines show you how you can be parallel but not ON the line. As long as it is square at BOTH null points.

4452

[Matt715]

Ok, cool. It lined up pretty easily without any problems.

So on a semi-related note, since the stylus sits so much further down in the grooves (so I've read) vs my Stanton, I get a lot more noise since I'm sure my records have never been cleaned. Should I look at getting some things to clean what I have? Do the carbon brushes make any difference, or is that to mostly remove surface dust on already clean records?

I experimented with some microfiber cloths and recommended DIY cleaning solutions on one record but it didn't seem to make a difference or remove any dirt for that matter.

[ohbythebay]

Well...Just so you know...cleaning will make improvements but it depends on the condition of the album. If its in MINT condition but dirty, yes. If its a thrift store album, chances are you will always hear noise. Find something ne (180gr vinyl) or mint vintage just so you can get an idea.

As to cleaning, an inexpensive and good first solution...The Spin clean...about $80 new.

Vinyl Record Cleaner and Washing System | Spin Clean Record Washing System (http://www.spincleanrecordwasher.com/)

[Matt715]

So far all I have is used/thrift store LPs. I did pick up 8 really clean looking albums on Monday from the thrift store. Someone must have donated their collection and I managed to find a few that were interesting before they all got picked over. I keep eying a few new titles but I just haven't had the motivation to spend the money yet. It's hard for me to spend $25+ on an album that I'm not sure I'm going to like. :S

[ohbythebay]

what music do you THINK you would like on vinyl ? Old school rock ? country ? Polka ? LOL

[Matt715]

I pretty much like everything but country, well most country, and I'm not big into polka. I'm actually drooling over the coming release of Johnny Cash's American IV next month on vinyl. I've been finding that the longer I've been in this hobby, the more my music tastes have changed. What I thought was ultra boring or unlistenable a few years ago has started to become ok. I guess it's part of "maturing" LOL. If I had to choose my main genre, it would be rock, more so alternative rock.

I have no problems buying used vinyl all day long for a couple bucks a piece. If I don't like it, no problem; spending big dollars on something that can be had on CD for 1/4 the cost is a little hard for me to swallow at this point. I know, I know, this is just how it is, especially if you start getting into audiophile pressings ect. but honestly, as much as I would like to, I just don't have the disposable income to spend on album after album. I went into this with the mindset that I would mostly be buying second hand LPs with the occasional new album if it was something special.

I guess I just need to do some listening and research, then find what I want and wait for deals. After all, this isn't a race, but a long journey. :)

[ohbythebay]

To be honest MOST of my albums cost between 12 and 25 dollars...In pristine shape or new...

Okay, BUY This album
Herb Alpert "Magic Man" Original LP Vinyl Album | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/HERB-ALPERT-MAGIC-MAN-NM-ORIGINAL-LP-VINYL-ALBUM-/111242933977?pt=Music_on_Vinyl&hash=item19e69876d9)

It wont be your usual music style, but it will certainly tell you just how good your system sounds...and the music just gets to you ...

remember I did a needle drop on one track ? Like I said for this price...TEST you system

Sample - needle drop long -AT440MLa cart
https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=D25B243EF6E53584!854&authkey=!AG0jzZEHPTZfjlg&ithint=file%2c.wav

[Matt715]

It's on the way.

[ohbythebay]

It's on the way.

Good deal..if it is in the condition it says then you are in for a treat. I can put that album on, close my eyes and feel like I am at a resort in the tropics...more important, I get to hear the detail and separation in my system. If that album doesn;t sound good, there is a PROBLEM....

Again congrats

[Matt715]

I received the album today and it's in nice shape and very clean with no pops or ticks. However, your recording sounds better than what I'm hearing out of my system. The bass is on par, possibly even a touch better, but your recording has a better soundstage and way more air to it. Where do I go from here?

[NorthStar]

To the bank? ...For a better turntable. ...Phono stage. ...Cartridge. ...Tonearm. ...Record Cleaning Machine. ...Tra-la-la ♫ :)

[Matt715]

Well, that's not going to happen. I do like the tra-la-la part though. :)

[ohbythebay]

Well, that's not going to happen. I do like the tra-la-la part though. :)

Hi Matt..well, mine was recorded straight in so that eliminates system difference. So we go to three things:

1) Setup - ALIGNMENT ALIGNMENT ALIGNMENT - and I don't mean with just a protractor. I mean VTF (tracking weight) VTA (arm angle - is the arm ass up or down - neither is good...it should be pretty damn straight while on the LP with perhaps a tad cart down tail up and I do mean just a tad..) Azimuth - is the cart parallel to the album when you look face on. Table is dead level. Anti-skate is set right.

2) Cart needs to break in

3) Phono stage - Mine was recorded using a $50 phono stage (believe it or not) but that thing is a little miracle, the ART DJ Pre II...not sure if I mentioned before
Amazon.com: ART DJPRE II Phono Preamplifier RCA Type Input and Output Switchable Low Cut Filter: Musical Instruments (http://www.amazon.com/ART-II-Preamplifier-Output-Switchable/dp/B000AJR482)

I would start with option 1...but please remind me, what are you playing through ?

[Matt715]

Thanks for the ideas. I already have a DJ Pre as a preamp which I have hooked up to my H/K AVR 247. I haven't checked the level of my table; I'll have to try and find my small level and see how far off it is. I set the VTF at 1.4g which is optimal according to the instructions with the anti-skate the same. I don't hear any distortion, so I'm guessing the anti-skate is pretty good. I'll go back this weekend and check out the alignment when I have daylight to aid my accuracy.

I also got a NOS Stanton stylus from Jack, which in my limited usage, has the same sound characteristics that I'm experiencing with my AT. While not as bright on the top end, it has the same lack of a holographic soundstage that I hear in your needle drop or when I listen to the digital side of my system.

[Jack]

Matt

If you have the same symptoms from both cartridges then the problem is somewhere else as Rob said. Could be alignment or overhang. Simple thing though, are you running the HK on Direct Mode when you are using the TT? Make sure there is no processing going on. I had a 645 for years and if I wanted to just play a CD with the Oppo in stereo I had to remember to turn the processing off.

[Matt715]

Jack,

Yep, no processing going on but it doesn't change anything if I do turn it on. I set the overhang of both cartridges to 49mm, which is where the stock one was set when I got it, and coincides with the info I've found in various places.

For an experiment, can I hook my preamp directly to my amp and control the volume with the gain? That would at least tell me if it's a problem with my AVR or not. My gut feeling is that I have a problem with the way my TT is setup.

With all the albums I've collected, including the Herb Alpert one, I've yet to have one where I've even been close to happy with the sound of it. Even though they are all used, I would think some of them should sound ok. :S

[Jack]

Matt

From looking at the back panel diagram of the 247, I don't see anyway to do that. Unlike Rob, I am not a huge fan of the ART. While it is better than the phono section of most receivers, it will not sound like the Phonomena. If you have the capacitance switch at 100pf and the gain level at or below 0db gain, it should sound o.k. unless the alignment is out. Try downloading a Stevenson protractor from Vinyl Engine and see if that helps. Set the overhang at 49mm and square and then check the alignment with the protractor. You may have to adjust the cartridge off of the shortcut.

[Matt715]

Jack,

I don't use the internal amps in my 247. I have a Emotiva XPA-5.

As far as the Pre goes, I have been running it on 100pf with a gain of 3-4db. At 3-4db, depending on the album, the clip light occasionally changes from green to red if it's a extremely dynamic passage; 99% of the time it's green. If I run it at 0, it's too quiet to get moderate volume out of with either cart.

[ohbythebay]

Okay, the doctor is in. Now I see the issue.

Forget about DIRECT, I assume you have it in STEREO mode ? ( I looked at your user manual (http://www.harmankardon.com/resources/Brands/harmankardon/Products/ProductRelatedDocuments/en-US/OwnersManual/AVR247om%20lores.pdf))

And then it mentions other modes, I suppose that's like concert hall, etc etc..

Bottom line, its an AVR. I am not disparage AVR's but they are not always designed to act as a stereo system. Just not their nature and forte. The same way adding two more speakers to a stereo does not make it a surround sound DTS IMAX...LOL

I don't know enough about the settings to get it just right but I don't know if you are going to get that soundstage you seek. Yet, I am trying to think this through.

I recorded that with a cheap tt, the At440MLa and the Art DJ pro...all into a computer. A needle drop. So no amp involved. Then you played it back...through your system ? And it has staging, yes ?

Okay...need to think ...

[Jack]

Rob

Even in the Stereo Mode there is a setting for "Analog Bypass", which on other units is called Pure Direct. That is what it needs to be set on. That takes all processing functions out. (page 16 of the manual) That is how I ran my HK to just use the mains in the HT setup. While it may not be the same as a dedicated two channel setup it will still be fine in that setting. The soundstage after that will be based on the setup of the speakers in terms of distance from each other, from the back wall and from boundary walls.

[Matt715]

I've tired it in the direct mode (and different connections) and currently just have it plugged into one of the free stereo jacks, in stereo (no DSP) mode. It sounds the same when hooked up either way.

Rob, your needle drop sounds great to me. I hear lots of detail, soundstage, and layering (for the lack of a better audiophile word). With mine, the detail is ok but I don't get the nice three dimensional soundstage. When I'm playing the needle drop, I have it running into my AVR via HDMI, so I'm using the AVR's crappy DAC.

My AVR is really just a "temporary" component. I'm just waiting for the right preamp to come along that will fit my needs while in my price range before I change things up. For what it is, it doesn't sound too bad when I'm not using the internal amps, but it's what I have to work with right now. I do have a old Pioneer AVR with a built in phono stage that I could get out and hook up if need be. It doesn't have any preouts so I'm not sure it would be a fair comparison.

When I get a chance on Sunday, I'm going to take a close look at how everything is setup in regards to my TT. I have serious doubts about it being level and I know that the VTA is not level. Since the VTA is not adjustable on it, I might be able to get satisfactory results with the addition of a mat.

[ohbythebay]

Ah..yes, that could be it...the more likely...Looking at your equipment, you have NICE STUFF MAN...LOL. SO you should NOT have to switch...especially if the digital file sounded good..

It never hurts to go back to basics..

[ohbythebay]

MATT..I had an ephinay ...Okay, maybe not so bold but thought of something...

Have you played other albums ? How do they sound..?

On the Herb alpert, what if we have different pressings !!! That could account for the difference..not all pressings/countries, etc .are alike...see if you can post a picture of yours

[Matt715]

Here's a pic of the label:

4574

The handwritten numbers are: A&M SP03728A-P3

Honestly, every album I've played so far as been really underwhelming. The only one so far that I've played that rivals Magic Man is my clean copy of Chicago X that I picked up at the thrift store. I did score a TON of records from a lady down the road for nothing. They really aren't the type of music I listen to and I have yet to go through them and see how badly they are beaten, but the few I've spun sound ho hum too.

I really need to buy a new, known good sounding album to really say whether or not something is going on.

I'm currently in the process of going through my table, and it was pretty are out of level. I stuck a few pennies under one of the legs and it's pretty level now. I'm also trying to setup my Dad's PL-41 so I can compare what his sounds like with his cart compared to mine. I'm having a heck of a time trying to figure out how to balance the tonearm, though. It's not working the way the instructions indicate the way it should work. :(

I'm off to find a tutorial on that thing...

[Matt715]

Scratch the PL-41 for now. The bottom thrust washer for the spindle is kaput and it looks like I'll have to make something to fix that issue.

[Matt715]

I spent a few hours adjusting and rechecking everything to find....

It actually sounds good! I was able to achieve and then improve on the sound of Rob's needle drop. My table is now level, the alignment ever so slightly tweaked, and VTF set slightly heavier. I was actually surprised at the difference leveling my table made.

I borrowed the mat off of the PL-41 and stacked it to correct my VTA as an experiment. I found that it improved the overall detail, but killed my bass. Would buying a proper mat bring the bass back or should I just stick with the stock mat?

[ohbythebay]

Ahh...I knew it had to be setting.

You never watched my video ?

Level table is absolutely a first step in doing your other alignments ,,,GLAD IT WORKS

And BTW..I have the same herb alpert....:hi:

[MikeCh]

I borrowed the mat off of the PL-41 and stacked it to correct my VTA as an experiment. I found that it improved the overall detail, but killed my bass. Would buying a proper mat bring the bass back or should I just stick with the stock mat?

That is opposite of what should happen. Adjusting VTA tail-up usually results in more detail with less bass. Adjusting VTA tail-down usually sacrifices detail for more bass. Adding the additional mat on your turntable inherently adjusts the tonearm to be more tail-down and should increase the amount of bass, not kill it. Strange....

Mike

[ohbythebay]

Matt..best bet...get that think almost dead level at the cart body.

Now that all else is fixed, try the original mat..tail up slightly ? And see how that sounds...

[Matt715]

Rob- I watched your video twice! I guess I just didn't spend enough time adjusting. I think leveling the table and adjusting VTF made the most improvements; the cartridge was barely out of alignment but it did also make a difference.

Mike- I'm not sure why it changed the way it did then. I honestly didn't do any research into the ramifications of having the VTA either way; it's just what I experienced. When I added the second mat, the arm was level; I didn't experiment with adding more height to make it tail down.

With that being said, does anyone think a different mat would make a difference or should I just stick with what I have?

[NorthStar]

Most likely an incomplete video. ;)

[Jack]

Matt

You can stick with the stock mat and buy different thickness cork sheets from Home Depot, Lowes, Michaels and put them under the mat to adjust the VTA.

[Jack]

Matt

Also in determining correct VTA, don't use the arm tube or the headshell as a guide. Use either the top or bottom of the cartridge body. Easy way to check is with a lined index card.

[Matt715]

Thanks Jack. I was just reading about cork or shelf liner to increase height and the index card is a great idea; I never would have thought of it.

[MikeCh]

Matt

Also in determining correct VTA, don't use the arm tube or the headshell as a guide. Use either the top or bottom of the cartridge body. Easy way to check is with a lined index card.

Depends.....what cart are you using right now Matt?

[Matt715]

I'm currently using a Audio Technica AT440MLa but I do also have a Stanton 680ee

[MikeCh]

I'm currently using a Audio Technica AT440MLa but I do also have a Stanton 680ee


When you mounted the AT440MLa cart to the headshell, did you follow the AT instructions to remove for safe keeping (and then replace) the stylus assembly? Maybe remove and replace the stylus assembly again and make sure you hear the recommended, "click" from the instruction manual. If the stylus isn't correctly seated in the cart body, no matter the arm adjustment, the sound isn't going to be right for this kind of MM cart/stylus.

Maybe just back up this one step and redo to make sure you've started off correctly....?

Mike

[ohbythebay]

Most likely an incomplete video. ;)

Ouch..how do you know ? did you watch it all the way to the end, through the credits, the music and the sequel teaser...LOL

[NorthStar]

Ouch..how do you know ? did you watch it all the way to the end, through the credits, the music and the sequel teaser...LOL

---- ;) ... I might have missed that video all together; what was it about Rob? :D

[dlb2]

Ouch..how do you know ? did you watch it all the way to the end, through the credits, the music and the sequel teaser...LOL

LMAO!!!

[NorthStar]

At least we're having fun; that's what this hobby's all about. :cool:

[ohbythebay]

At least we're having fun; that's what this hobby's all about. :cool:

EXACTLY ! Its amazing how fun AS has stayed...very peaceful..and damn funny too !

[Matt715]

I was out of town over the weekend and was able to pick up a few new LPs to give my system it's first real chance to show what it could do. The verdict? It's nice! I have two out of three albums on CD and it's interesting to hear how different they sound on vinyl. The only downside is that one of the LPs had a small piece of vinyl stuck on it, which when removed, left a spot on the record. It produces a slightly audible tick when the needle comes across it so I'm not sure if I'm going to bother trying to ship it back and swap it for another copy.

[ohbythebay]

So you are enjoying it better now ? Got things worked out ?

[Matt715]

Yeah, I think I'm good for now. :audiophile: