Mezzo XD presentation of orchestral music

[pdub]

While small ensembles (jazz or classical) sound like they're in the room with me, I haven't been able to get seats in the 10th row or closer for orchestral music with the Mezzo XDs. Seem to be stuck with a midhall presentation, which was not at all the case with Salon2's in approximately the same position.
Details:
room is 17x38
speaker fronts are 6.5' from front wall; toed in so I can see just a smidge of the inner sidewall (eg pointing approx at shoulders)
speakers and seat approx 10' triangle, but I once tried moving the sofa back 4' without much improvement
peak db when listening to orchestral typically no more than 95 -- multi-purpose room, so while there's till plenty of headroom in the amps I'd say the limiting factor is the energy in the room

Any Mezzo-owning classical listeners having a different experience?

Parker

[Paul]

First all, congrats on your Mezzo XD.

Are they even broken in ? Also may I see the pic of your set up and gear ? Thanks in advance

[Mike]

When I listen to large scale classical on the AG’s, I hear much more of the hall than I do with any other speaker. This is in large part due to their very high efficiency which produces a lot more of the micro details in the recording, even down to people whispering at a concert like some of the “Live at the Sands” recordings. So hearing more of the hall, could give one the impression of 10th row instead of 1st row.

That being said, although I don’t listen to a lot of large scale classical music, I have never felt like “first row” with any recording or system - only actually being there at the symphony did I experience that. YMMV.

[pdub]

They're broken in

http://www.audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=23889&stc=1

http://www.audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=23890&stc=1

[joeinid]

Very nice!

[pdub]

Thanks.

[Al M.]

I had the same problem, too recessed images on a lot of music. While I have taken many acoustic measures to get to a more involving presentation, I would initially suggest a large wool carpet (not synthetic fiber) in the front half of the room, from speakers to front wall where your TV/rack is located. You want to have a dead end/live end situation in your room, with the dead end being the front half, and the live end the rear half, where you sit. Since at 10 feet distance you sit not close to the speakers, the carpet might stretch even further toward your listening position. You could also play with a wool carpet speakers to front wall, and then an additional wool carpet between speakers and your seat (if I judge correctly from the images, you already have a carpet in front of the speakers; you could play with the material as well, i.e. wool instead of synthetic if that is not already the case).

Currently you have a quite reflective surface with all the exposed wood floor, which leads to a live front end and thus recessed imaging.

It is good when a system reveals a lot of hall information; adjustment of room acoustics help in shaping the desired presentation. Better than when all the acoustic low-level information is not revealed in the first place, and the system sounds upfront just because of a lack of this information.

[pdub]

Thanks Al. The carpet is wool, stretching from just below the speakerfront to under the couch -- so the floor between speaker and listening position is covered. The back of the room is 20 feet behind the listening position -- this 20 feet is basically the breakfast area and kitchen, so it's live.
As noted, Salon2's -- cone'n'dome -- gave a more involving, enveloping experience of large-scale music. Mike has suggested I try sitting closer, which seems counter-intuitive with horns, but we'll see ... I don't want to lose the sense of "they-are-here" realism I currently get with smaller ensemble music in the room.
This is a multi-purpose room, so typical acoustic treatments really aren't an option. I have a suspicion that with horns in a better acoustically controlled environment I could play at more realistic SPL's, thus getting 10th row or closer effect. (And I could go deaf if not careful ...) But the sound in this room tends to start getting ragged around the mid-90s, well below true orchestral peaks. I didn't measure the Revel's SPL's when I was getting the more satisfying experience, but my guess is the cone and domes did a better, or different (?), job of translating the recording venue ambiance into my room.
Parker

[Al M.]

Thanks Al. The carpet is wool, stretching from just below the speakerfront to under the couch -- so the floor between speaker and listening position is covered. The back of the room is 20 feet behind the listening position -- this 20 feet is basically the breakfast area and kitchen, so it's live.
As noted, Salon2's -- cone'n'dome -- gave a more involving, enveloping experience of large-scale music. Mike has suggested I try sitting closer, which seems counter-intuitive with horns, but we'll see ... I don't want to lose the sense of "they-are-here" realism I currently get with smaller ensemble music in the room.
This is a multi-purpose room, so typical acoustic treatments really aren't an option. I have a suspicion that with horns in a better acoustically controlled environment I could play at more realistic SPL's, thus getting 10th row or closer effect. (And I could go deaf if not careful ...) But the sound in this room tends to start getting ragged around the mid-90s, well below true orchestral peaks. I didn't measure the Revel's SPL's when I was getting the more satisfying experience, but my guess is the cone and domes did a better, or different (?), job of translating the recording venue ambiance into my room.
Parker

You're welcome, Parker. Sitting closer might help, playing at higher SPL long-term is probably not great for your ears. You might want to think about moving the wool carpet between speakers and listening seat towards the front wall, and instead having a synthetic fiber carpet where you now have the wool carpet, so that the acoustics there are more live. Having a more pronounced dead end/live end version of room acoustics will only help with they-are-here" realism with smaller ensemble music as well.

The current configuration of carpet/bare wood floor is almost certainly one reason -- if not the main reason -- for the more recessed presentation that you do not like.

[Paul]

Thanks for the pics. Great looking room.

I would suggest toed in bit more ( tweeter pointing to your ears ) mine I don’t see the inner side speakers.

How is your Dsp settings look alike ?

[pdub]

Thanks for the pics. Great looking room.

I would suggest toed in bit more ( tweeter pointing to your ears ) mine I don’t see the inner side speakers.

How is your Dsp settings look alike ?

Thanks Paul. I'll give it a try. I've been using preset "11 -- full bass (+3 db) with rich sound (+30 Hz)".
If you don't mind: if you listen to orchestral, what sort of perspective do you get with your Mezzo's? First row? Tenth? 30th? What are your distances tweeter-tweeter and tweeter-ear? Is your room completely enclosed -- eg, can you get room-lock?
Parker
btw, massive power outages around here when storm passed. Though my street was spared, not going to fire the system back up until I'm sure there won't be surges as other neighborhoods come back on line.

[Paul]

Thanks Paul. I'll give it a try. I've been using preset "11 -- full bass (+3 db) with rich sound (+30 Hz)".
If you don't mind: if you listen to orchestral, what sort of perspective do you get with your Mezzo's? First row? Tenth? 30th? What are your distances tweeter-tweeter and tweeter-ear? Is your room completely enclosed -- eg, can you get room-lock?
Parker
btw, massive power outages around here when storm passed. Though my street was spared, not going to fire the system back up until I'm sure there won't be surges as other neighborhoods come back on line.

I will measure them this evening and get back to you :)

[Willco]

While small ensembles (jazz or classical) sound like they're in the room with me, I haven't been able to get seats in the 10th row or closer for orchestral music with the Mezzo XDs. Seem to be stuck with a midhall presentation, which was not at all the case with Salon2's in approximately the same position.
Details:
room is 17x38
speaker fronts are 6.5' from front wall; toed in so I can see just a smidge of the inner sidewall (eg pointing approx at shoulders)
speakers and seat approx 10' triangle, but I once tried moving the sofa back 4' without much improvement
peak db when listening to orchestral typically no more than 95 -- multi-purpose room, so while there's till plenty of headroom in the amps I'd say the limiting factor is the energy in the room

Any Mezzo-owning classical listeners having a different experience?

Parker

While my reference is only the AG XD Mezzo's ( and before that the AG Grosso's), and I can't comment on the Revel's, I think the Mezzo's do pretty well with orchestral. But I think it's generally asking a lot for any system to capture large orchestral music.

I gravitate toward smaller work and I agree that with the AG's, on a good recording, it sound's like the musicians are in the room. Saxophone translates incredibly well with these speakers. Piano also.

And they are ruthlessly revealing of bad recording, which is a drag but not the speakers fault. :).

You have a large space, which is great for these speakers.

I have an unusual listening room which doubles as a work studio: 15x60' total, with the listening area 15x45' and heavily treated with almost equal amounts absorption and diffusion. Because it's so long it has few bass problems and gives me flexibility to where I listen. I'm often 40' from the speakers when I'm working and this is sometimes my favorite position as it has a very live, reverberant quality. The Room is playing at this depth.

I used to be allergic to near-field listening (11' in my case) but it's starting to grow on me. I haven't settled on a particular sweet spot and may never. For concentrated listening, I try between 11 and 18 feet and the bass is good throughout this range. So, with my chair on rollers I'll listen somewhere in this zone, depending on the particular music and my mood. I haven't had the speakers very long so I'm still experimenting.

[pdub]

But I think it's generally asking a lot for any system to capture large orchestral music.

-- I couldn't claim that the Revel's "captured" large orchestral so much as they presented a more satisfying, albeit miniaturized, facsimile of the performers on stage. I assume this means that the cone'n'dome presentation of ambiance cues is different than that of horns. I should still probably make my next audio investment a visit from Jim Smith. I just need to decide which room to put the speakers in: the larger multi-purpose room with limited seating and acoustic treatment options or the 1/3 smaller basement room with superior seating/acoustic options.


I'm often 40' from the speakers when I'm working and this is sometimes my favorite position as it has a very live, reverberant quality. The Room is playing at this depth.


--often sounds like a real jazz band in a real jazz club when I'm on the far end of the room at the kitchen sink. Pretty cool for fixing dinner and doing dishes ... I should cook more ...

[Paul]

Thanks Paul. I'll give it a try. I've been using preset "11 -- full bass (+3 db) with rich sound (+30 Hz)".
If you don't mind: if you listen to orchestral, what sort of perspective do you get with your Mezzo's? First row? Tenth? 30th? What are your distances tweeter-tweeter and tweeter-ear? Is your room completely enclosed -- eg, can you get room-lock?
Parker
btw, massive power outages around here when storm passed. Though my street was spared, not going to fire the system back up until I'm sure there won't be surges as other neighborhoods come back on line.

I'm using the custom preset which is same as what Mike is uses since our rooms are very similar in size and works great.
If I have to answer to your question regards to seat postion in concert I would say it will be close to 10-15 th row. The T-T are 10 fts and to my ears are about 13 fts and the room is not dead end one goes to hally way.

[Jim Smith]

Thanks for the pics. Great looking room.

I would suggest toed in bit more ( tweeter pointing to your ears ) mine I don’t see the inner side speakers.

Guess I disagree with Paul's toe-in suggestions slightly.

There are certain issues can that affect it. IMO/IME, it depends somewhat on distance from speaker, L&R speaker separation, distance from side walls, first reflection treatment, and speaker rake angle as it is related to your seat height. Not to mention tonal balance of source and electronics.

Of course, none of that matters at all if you didn't carefully locate the optimum seating position before doing anything about speaker adjustments or positioning.

Again, IMO/IME...

[pdub]

Thanks to everyone for the comments and suggestions. Real life has intruded this last week and prevented me from trying anything. Will report when time allows.
Parker

[pdub]

Sorry to have left this thread hanging. Turns out my volume levels on the subs had somehow been set to -7.0 dB. Apparently that'll take the heart right out of big music and stick the listener in the back rows.

Parker

[Paul]

Sorry to have left this thread hanging. Turns out my volume levels on the subs had somehow been set to -7.0 dB. Apparently that'll take the heart right out of big music and stick the listener in the back rows.

Parker

So glad to hear that you sorted out Parker. Enjoy them in good health. Amazing speakers. :).


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