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Thread: Top Tier Amps
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January 29, 2022, 02:38 PM #351My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481
"We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."
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January 29, 2022, 03:11 PM #352
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Re: Top Tier Amps
Speakers: Adyton Imagic 2.0 TC (line source), Subs: Audio Physic Minos x2, Amp: Adyton Cordis 1.7 Silver Signature, Pre: Burmester 077, RIAA: Burmester 100, Kondo GE-1, Consolidated MU-metal stepup Phono: Acoustic Signature Invictus Jr, Avid Acutus Ref. SP, Bergmann Galder, Technics sl-1000r, Michell Gyrodec, Arms: Acoustic Signature TA9000Neo, SME V with NO cabling, Bergmann Odin, SME 309, Thomas Schick 12´, FR64S, PU´s: Lyra Atlas SL, Kiseki PH, DS Audio W2, SPU 85th ann., VdH Colibri XGW Master Sig. Strad. Cables: Nordost Valhalla2, Odin1 and Odin2, Power: Adyton 6kw trafo, Burmester 948, Isotek Supertitan, Nordost QRT QX2, QX4, Qv2, Rack: Aavik titanium rack, Absolare, Kanso wall-shelf, NO Sort Kones TC, BC, Sort Fut, Ansuz Darkz B:TC, Grounding: Nordost QKORE6
System 2: Kondo Overture PM2,, Michell Gyrodec, Naim NDX streamer, Burmester 113 DAC, Avantgarde Uno XD, Nordost Valhalla, Audio Insight Isovolt 3 kw trafo.
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January 31, 2022, 01:17 PM #353
Re: Top Tier Amps
Thoughts on where current Mark Levinson and Krell gear fit into this hierarchy?
Kevin
Main: VPI Aries 3/Grado Reference3, and Aurender N200 > PS Audio DS DAC. Luxman L-509Z integrated amp. Sonus Faber Elipsa SE speakers. PS Audio P10 power. Transparent Audio, Cardas and Audioquest cables.
Bar: EAT C-sharp/Hana MH, and exaSound s82 > Luxman L-595SE amp. GolderEar One.R speakers. Shunyata power, Audioquest cables.
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January 31, 2022, 01:26 PM #354My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481
"We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."
Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.
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February 1, 2022, 01:42 PM #355
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Re: Top Tier Amps
I'm late to this tier party but perception is everything and price point, looks, and reviews matter tremendously. Just ask those in the wine industry.
We own a BMW sedan, a mercedes crossover, and drove almost every SUV out there. Genesis was easily amongst the best. Easily. Sitting at the cramped Hyundai dealership with 50 customers and salespeople smoking at the door did move it down a few tiers however....Aurender > Weiss > Audio Research > SoundField
Oppo > Lexicon > Hegel > SoundField
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February 1, 2022, 08:12 PM #356
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Re: Top Tier Amps
Agree! Perception is subjective. In audio, folks will hear/perceive whatever they think they hear. However, the higher the price the most likely it is that it will influence their perception of what they hear (higher price = better). It has been studied; it is called confirmation bias. This whole thread (over 350 post by now) has been about perception (i.e., subjective). But if perception/subjective satisfies a person's wants/needs, it is all good!
If you do your homework and go beyond the subjective, hyped/pricey stuff, and audio myths (!) you can find excellent audio options without overpaying.
That also applies to cars and wines.
With cars, for example, the Nissan GT-R made Porsche get their act together. In 2008/2009, for half the price, the GT-R ate P-Turbos for lunch on the track. A year or so later, it pushed Porsche to add PDK transmissions to their cars. Another example, when the Lexus LX 400 first arrived, it was priced much cheaper than the equivalent Mercedes and it was looked down upon by Mercedes owners. Your comment about Genesis is valid, and with time, they may be able to achieve something similar to what Lexus has achieved. It takes time.
Regarding wines, many brands benefit from name recognition and pricing. In many ways, wine connoisseurs (some may call the them snobs) are like certain audiophiles: they hate blind testing. They do not want to admit that a cheap wine can taste better than their pricey bottle. When you go to a restaurant with a fancy wine list, you usually get the best value with wines that are not well known. They are also usually priced much lower (like 2X street price versus 3X or 4X multiplier).
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February 2, 2022, 12:19 AM #357
Re: Top Tier Amps
PDK transmissions are not new to porsche, as they used them at leman as far back as 1984, so very unlikely Nissan forced Porsche to do didley crap , much less eat Porsche's at the track ..
That would be leading from behind* An Audiophile is only as old as his latest Class D incarnation *
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February 2, 2022, 05:05 PM #358
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Re: Top Tier Amps
Topics like this are always both interesting -- and frustrating -- to read. My primary complaint about a topic like "Top Tier Amplifiers" is its extraordinary subjectivity. We all know that what we hear is not an individual component; rather, it is a system -- which means its output is impacted not only by each component's individual performance but also by the manner in which each interacts with all of the system's other components. In fact, the only way there would be any validity to an assessment of a particular component's quality of performance would be to establish a "control" system as the baseline standard and then introduce (in this case, the subject amplifier) the component being assessed and then replacing, one by one, that amplifier with the amplifiers of its assumed competitors.
The secondary problem, of course, is that it is, in fact, absurd to assume (1) that the performance of one model of a manufacturer's line of amplifiers is equaled by the performance of all of its other amplifiers and (2) that the performance of the subject amplifier in the control system would be equaled by its performance in all other systems -- insofar as how the output from that system's loudspeakers actually sounds.
This is the basis of my underlying gripe in all subjective-based reviews where a component is inserted and audibly evaluated without any comparison to similar components of its primary competitors or how it impacts the sound in any other system. I wish that the leading reviewers maintained a "control" system and then did a comparison of a number of, say, DACs. All we consumers have now is a cacophony of individual opinions of individual components over a period of time. I have to also say that, while I don't think that objective instrumentation-based reviews are the definitive answer, I do think that John Atkinson's tests in Stereophile are of some indisputable value.Jonathan
_______________________
Age is a mental construct.
System: Theta Casablanca V preamp/processor/DAC; Wadia 8 transport; Wadia 2000 DAC; Theta Compli SACD transport; Lumin T2 streamer/DAC; Roon Nucleus+; Luxul AGS-1024 switch; SOTA Sapphire turntable w/Premier FT3 arm & Hana SL cartridge; PS Audio Stellar phono preamp; SweetVinyl SC-2 noise/click remover; Oppo 203 4K player; Magnum Dynalab FT-101A tuner; McIntosh MC611 mono amplifiers (3); Revel Ultima Studio/ Voice/Embrace speakers (L/C/R and sides); Arendal 1723 speakers (surrounds); SVS SB-16 (2) and 3000 Micro (2) subwoofers; Stax SR-L300 headphones; TeddyPardo 19/3 linear power supply; Richard Gray's Substation; Shunyata 6000/S, 2000/T (2), Venom PS10, Hydra (2), and Defender (2) power conditioners; Wireworld Silver Eclipse 8 speaker cables; Audioquest, Cardas, Kimber Kable, MIT, and Wireworld interconnects; Cullen, and Shunyata power cords.
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February 2, 2022, 05:46 PM #359
Re: Top Tier Amps
Your wine analogy is not correct. I was in the business and I can tell you that oenophiles usually like to taste blind. It does two things, it exposes overpriced wines and sharpens the palate. Regarding wine lists, lesser known wines usually carry a higher markup since it's harder to price shop them. Santa Margarita PG for example is on every Italian list at every crummy restaurant. The patrons know exactly how much it costs at retail and determine whether or not it's worth it based on what they can buy it for in a store. Higher priced wines (collectibles) generally carry a lower % markup due to the overall price tag. Generally restaurants have a formula, markups are usually 2 1/2 times the wholesale price and on by the glass programs the first glass will usually cover the cost of the bottle and the rest is profit. There is a lot of waste so in their minds it justifies the higher margin.
Toolshed Amplifiers 300b DHT amp, Supratek Cabernet DHT preamp, Weiss 502 DAC, Spatial Audio X3 open baffle speakers, Pro-ject RS2T transport, Silversmith speaker cables, Grover Huffman ICs.
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February 2, 2022, 06:32 PM #360
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Re: Top Tier Amps
When i dated a lot in NYC 100 years ago, i would always bring a bottle of Santa Margarita PG. Good to see its still cruising along, albeit at crummy restaurants....
Aurender > Weiss > Audio Research > SoundField
Oppo > Lexicon > Hegel > SoundField
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February 2, 2022, 06:47 PM #361
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February 2, 2022, 10:09 PM #362
Re: Top Tier Amps
The racing world adopted PDK/SMG, etc well before amateur wanna-be's would accept anything with less than 3 pedals from the assembly line because the racing world realized that "automatic" manuals provided split-second advantages over the old-fashioned heel-toe dance. Upon it's debut in stock form in the late aughts, Nissan claimed some Porsche-beating times at the Nordschleife for their GT-R. I'm sure it's just a coincidence that Porsche and a bevy of other performance car manufacturers started trending away from manual clutch soon thereafter ...
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February 2, 2022, 10:46 PM #363
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Re: Top Tier Amps
Porsche had developed PDK transmissions but only used them for their race cars. They only started using it in their street cars after Nissan brought the GTR to the USA in 2008 with a dual clutch transmission. And regarding the Porsche Turbo not being able to catch up the stock GTR, I actually saw that (in 2009 at VIR).
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February 2, 2022, 11:45 PM #364
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Re: Top Tier Amps
Thanks for the edification on the blind testing habits of oenophiles.
Unless you are in the business or are only considering fairly well known wines, most non-oenophile patrons (myself included) do not know the street value of wines. I actually rely heavily on apps such as Vivino to help me explore the wine lists at restaurants. Recently, I was at a Spanish restaurant that had a very large selection of wines. The had some very expensive wines on the list (including several vintages of Vega Cecilia some priced at several thousands dollars a bottle). I ended up enjoying a 2015 Xi'Lpal Syrah (rated 4.3 at Vivino). Never had heard of that brand; so I have to thank Vivino for helping me find a highly-rated wine for less than half of similarly rated wines on the wine list.
Since you were in the business, one request, if you don't mind. About 10 years ago, I was at a Restaurant that had this item (see picture) on the list. I always wondered what was the actual value of that 3 Liter bottle and what markup they actually had on it.
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February 3, 2022, 07:43 AM #365
Re: Top Tier Amps
Im sure its more than coincidence , its customer demand , clutchless (actually it’s pedal less ) always changing Nordi laptimes had nothing to do with their decisions, in fact in the past most porsche customers demanded analog because they actually like to shift gears , like myself and have very little interest in paddle shifting , so while i do both my preference is to pull a stick and shift , nothing to do with a flash in the pan GTR times ..
1. Recent story we took a early GT3 race car to shake down after a restoration and asked one of our associated pro drivers to give it a few laps he got in and 5laps later came in to report all felt well we checked it over and he then requested if he could put in some more laps , well 15 laps later we flagged him in again and he was all smiles he hadnt driven an analog car in awhile and was having fun ( his words ) it was fantastic to use all 3 pedals again and pull a stick ..!
Long and short we had 3 other pro drivers beg the owner for a few laps before we ended it all to put the car away .
More Porsche owners will do laps or will be involved actively in driving clubs than GTR owners , the demand for shifting their cars are high its not non existent pressure from a Nissan GTR..
2. The move to paddle shifting has more to do with advancements in the electronics and safety control , its much easier to program traction and launch control , auto downshift blips and sequential flat shifting, without the additional clutch pedal , especially as the cars become faster and more difficult to drive for budding weekend racing Audiophiles at the control..
We have and are also adding these systems to older race cars including prototypes , because our weekend racers find them easier to drive fast and have control , auto throttle blip, traction control with flat shift cut blah blah require , no demand all this tech not an arbitrary GTR laptime Safety is tue main reason its trickling out unto street cars , So Nissan owners can safely speed along and rejoice ..!
You couldn't drive that tank of a car at speeds its capable of without it ..!
Its an apples to oranges compare , cheese to chalk really ...!
Regards* An Audiophile is only as old as his latest Class D incarnation *
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February 3, 2022, 07:45 AM #366
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February 3, 2022, 08:17 AM #367
Re: Top Tier Amps
So much for the topic of top tier amps…
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Mike
Amplification: MBL 6010D, MBL 9008A Monos
Analog: Kuzma R, Kuzma 4Point (11”), MSL Ultra Eminent EX
Phono Pre: Pass XP-27
Digital: Esoteric N01XD Esoteric K05
Speakers: MBL 101E MKII
Subwoofers: REL Carbon Specials
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ICs and SCs: Wireworld Platinum 8
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February 3, 2022, 08:22 AM #368
Re: Top Tier Amps
Top tier Amps , cars , wines, boats and planes all flow Mike
* An Audiophile is only as old as his latest Class D incarnation *
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February 3, 2022, 08:38 AM #369
Re: Top Tier Amps
Specially wine…
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Mike
Amplification: MBL 6010D, MBL 9008A Monos
Analog: Kuzma R, Kuzma 4Point (11”), MSL Ultra Eminent EX
Phono Pre: Pass XP-27
Digital: Esoteric N01XD Esoteric K05
Speakers: MBL 101E MKII
Subwoofers: REL Carbon Specials
Conditioner: Shunyata Triton 3
Power Cables: Shunyata Sigma 1 & 2, Alpha 2, Delta and Venom
ICs and SCs: Wireworld Platinum 8
Rack: Artesania Exoteryc
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February 3, 2022, 09:08 AM #3702chl : Vincent Sp331MkII, W4S STP-SE Stage 2, Kef 201/2, KEF 140, Vapor Breeze, Lumin, Bryston CD, BHA-1, Quicksilver Headamp, HD650, HD800s, HD820's, Dan Clark 1.1, Focal Stellia, OPPO 203, 105. ( Boxed up: Pass Xa-30.5, VPI Classic, Dynavector DV-20XL, Manley Chinook, Cadenza Bronze)
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February 3, 2022, 10:39 AM #371
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February 3, 2022, 08:00 PM #372
Re: Top Tier Amps
A 3 liter La Tache is VERY rare. Anything larger than a 750 gets bottled by hand so they're expensive to produce. Right now a 3L would probably run 50k or so at retail. If you can afford it, it's an amazing wine from a great vintage in Burgundy. I don't know the retail of hand from 10 years ago but it was high and the markup isn't multiples of the base price, it's percentage points. I would never personally. I think there's plenty of great juice for less but some people feel they're on the earth for a short time and want to experience everything they can.
Toolshed Amplifiers 300b DHT amp, Supratek Cabernet DHT preamp, Weiss 502 DAC, Spatial Audio X3 open baffle speakers, Pro-ject RS2T transport, Silversmith speaker cables, Grover Huffman ICs.
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February 3, 2022, 09:09 PM #373
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Re: Top Tier Amps
a double magnum 1990 la tache these day would be sold most likely via auction and be over 100k.
i had (unfortunately drunk and cocked with it) multiple romanee contis from the 90s. la tache was a dissapointment, loved the richebourgs and grand echezeauxs.
these days, DRCs are investments and for collectors, not meant to drink. they get stored, get undrinkable and more expensive.
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February 4, 2022, 10:31 AM #374
Re: Top Tier Amps
My point of this thread was to show that brands have a certain “status” associated to them in the marketplace. If someone says “Ferrari”, they think a higher status than “Kia”. That was the whole point I was trying to make. I was not discussing sound, but rather customer and market perception of a brand name.
I put my own amps (NAIM) as tier 3, so…
It’s not a commentary on one particular amp Vs another. That’s a whole other subject. And yes, there are names that can move up or down based on markets, segments and individual perceptions.
As for wine, I’m sure there are certain vineyards which when you say the name, conjures up a perception of a higher quality wine. Take Caymus for example. This particular batch in stores now is not good. But it probably won’t change the overall status of the name.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ProMy Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481
"We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."
Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.
https://suncoastaudio.com/
Phone: 941-932-0282
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/
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AudioShark forum is a leading forum site for High End Audio Discussion, Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater System Discussion, Best Home Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater Installation Discussion etc.
The AudioShark forum was created for sharing the passion of high-end Audio. We have Audiophiles from all over the world participating and sharing their knowledge. From novice to experts, you will find a friendly environment for discussing about High End Audio, Stereo System, Home Theater System, Home Stereo System, Home Theater Installation, Amplifiers, Speakers, Subwoofers, Integrated System, Acoustic treatments & Digital Room Corrections and many more.
At AudioShark, we also have incorporated an exciting Marketplace where members can peruse terrific buys on used gear, as well as meet dealers and discuss the purchase of new gear.
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Industry Participation Disclosure : The owner and administrator of Audioshark is the owner of Suncoast Audio LLC in Sarasota Florida. Suncoast Audio has a full brick and mortar presence in Sarasota with several great show rooms with many world class brands. More information can be found at http://www.suncoastaudio.com
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