Top Tier Amps

**u-sound** · April 2, 2021, 04:40 AM

Originally Posted by Kuoppis

Hi Mike, one more observation regarding your tier list.

I see you have split Pass between two tiers, with XS in tier 2 and X in tier 3.

After hearing again the latest AudioNet scientist series, I think a similar split could be possible here with the Scientist series in tier 1 and the earlier models in tier 2.

The Humboldt, Stern, and Heisenberg are really special IMHO.

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yes!! scientist series top of the table in tier 1

what was the system you did hear them with?
only heard them with wilsons so far and like to hear how it works with other speakers.

**Randy Myers** · April 2, 2021, 08:33 AM

I am not a huge fan of splitting various models within a brand to different tiers. It is almost like you are saying that Brand X makes this one amazing model that they use for brand reputation but then sell these other off shoots off the big boy's reputation.

I personally believe a brand is only as good as its lowest offerings; otherwise I feel that they are being deceiving with their lower models, since the obvious outcome is that they may sell a few of the high models and a ton of the low lines off the big model. I know there are some out there who have really top notch gear but also sell cheap knock offs which is not the same gear. A brand's reputation should be by its lowest models not its highest. The other method does eventual gain the company a bad reputation.

Lets use T+A as an example. Their HV series is absolutely amazing and deserves the praise it gets but the Series 8 is quite outstanding on its own and deserves the praise it gets. The DAC 8 DSD once again gained an A+ rating in the latest Stereophile magazine even though it is their "low" model. To me that is a stellar manufacture. You may give up some features or absolute highest level and power, but you get the same quality of construction, same house sound; you are indeed buying the same reputation and quality. This can not be said for many manufactures out there.

**Mike** · April 2, 2021, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by Randy Myers

I am not a huge fan of splitting various models within a brand to different tiers. It is almost like you are saying that Brand X makes this one amazing model that they use for brand reputation but then sell these other off shoots off the big boy's reputation.

I personally believe a brand is only as good as its lowest offerings; otherwise I feel that they are being deceiving with their lower models, since the obvious outcome is that they may sell a few of the high models and a ton of the low lines off the big model. I know there are some out there who have really top notch gear but also sell cheap knock offs which is not the same gear. A brand's reputation should be by its lowest models not its highest. The other method does eventual gain the company a bad reputation.

Lets use T+A as an example. Their HV series is absolutely amazing and deserves the praise it gets but the Series 8 is quite outstanding on its own and deserves the praise it gets. The DAC 8 DSD once again gained an A+ rating in the latest Stereophile magazine even though it is their "low" model. To me that is a stellar manufacture. You may give up some features or absolute highest level of performance and power, but you get the same quality of construction, same house sound; you are indeed buying the same reputation. This can not be said for many manufactures out there.

That’s a fair comment. Too many Johnny-Come-Lately brands too to even have a ranking. This isn’t performance. If someone wants to start a thread on performance, have at it. This is about market perception. If I ask 20 people about some of these new brands, I assure you, 19 or 20 will say “who?”

I’ve heard Block Audio is outstanding for example. But again, this isn’t about performance, it’s about perception of the brand.

**mdp632** · April 2, 2021, 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by Mike

That’s a fair comment. Too many Johnny-Come-Lately brands too to even have a ranking. This isn’t performance. If someone wants to start a thread on performance, have at it. This is about market perception. If I ask 20 people about some of these new brands, I assure you, 19 or 20 will say “who?”

I’ve heard Block Audio is outstanding for example. But again, this isn’t about performance, it’s about perception of the brand.

Any chance the thread title can be edited to include that?

**Kuoppis** · April 2, 2021, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by u-sound

yes!! scientist series top of the table in tier 1

what was the system you did hear them with?
only heard them with wilsons so far and like to hear how it works with other speakers.

I heard them with B&W speakers, but even with those they sounded great

.

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**Bobvin** · April 2, 2021, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Mike

You may want to update your signature. You will be displaying these in your home now right?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Hi Mike, I’ll work on the signature. This all came about as a result of my wife rupturing her appendix when in NYC for some training 2 years ago. I got tired of watching her be sick (9 days in intensive care) and went to visit the woman who did my acoustic remodel (based in Manhattan), and then to some shops to hear music. I stopped by Rhapsody Audio (a bunch of AudioSharks had met there several years back) for a social visit and was gobsmacked by the Diesis speakers he was playing. I wanted a pair in my house (!) but didn’t have the budget.

Fast forward about a month ago, my sweet wife asks do I want new speakers? Sure, I answered, but what makes sense? Easy would be upgrade to Alexia v2, or Alexx V, but at Alexx V pricing I need to hear many others, including Diesis. I called Bob @ Rhapsody wrt Diesis, and he also has Alsyvox which got a lot of positive press the last couple RMAF shows. But how to audition? The topic comes up of Bob’s idea of remote showrooms, or as he calls them Remote Listening Rooms. I take the bait because how else can I audition several killer speakers in my own room, really getting to know them to make a choice for myself. Along the way I decide to get new electronics as well—as you say my lifetime favorite Audio Research really is a solid Tier 3 brand (though the synergy in my room has been spectacular.)

Enter Pilium. (Pilium Audio - Audio Components) Like you say some risks with these less-well-known brands but they might be the next “big thing.” That Alon Wolfe has chosen them to drive the M9s told me they must be the real deal. (Certainly reference prices, but not so high as many.)

So, yes, I will be the Portland version of the Rhapsody RLR. Not quite sure that puts me in dealer category, I won’t be doing any selling, negotiating, contracting with manufacturers. All that is done by Rhapsody—I’m just a remote location to audition some gear.

Mono & Stereo had a press release: https://www.monoandstereo.com/2021/0...ooms-rlrs.html

Pilium kit...

MODEL - TYPE - RETAIL PRICE

ALEXANDER PREAMP Double Chassis $49,900usd

ARES PREAMP Single Chassis $34,9000usd

ACHILLES STEREO AMP 300W - 8ohm $49,000usd

IASONAS STEREO AMP 200W - 8ohm $29,000usd

Apollo Monos 200W8ohm $59,000 usd

Poseidon Monos 250W8ohm $79,000 usd

HERCULES MONO AMPS 350W - 8ohm $99,900usd

Odysseus 180W 8 ohm $29,900usd

LEONIDAS INTEG AMP 200W - 8ohm $39,900usd

ELEKTRA Digital to Analog Converter $39,900usd

Amps & integrated double down into 4 ohms, again into 2 ohms, stable @ 1 ohm. (I think thats the same as Dagostino amps)

**Randy Myers** · April 2, 2021, 11:52 AM

That is awesome Bob. I also assume that everything is by appointment and around your schedule. It is a way of you auditioning some of the models that you are interested in and being able to try others that you may not have previously been interested in

. Of course you need the physical space to allow for this

...

Congratulations on your new adventure!

By the way, what are those speakers that you use as your avatar? They are Alsyvox are they not? They look very interesting (certainly way out of my range).

**Bobvin** · April 2, 2021, 12:11 PM

Thank you Randy. Yes, appointment only kind of a thing. My wife has been wanting me to retire but I’ve been reluctant. She saw this as a lever. Its an opportunity I never would have imagined for myself, but I already host folks from the local audio club, this just extends that a bit.

The speakers in the avatar are Alsyvox Botticelli. I am getting those with the external crossovers, so the “X” model. Several RMAF reviews in 2018 and 2019 had those “best of show”. But this is amp thread I’ll stop there.

**Randy Myers** · April 2, 2021, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by Bobvin

Thank you Randy. Yes, appointment only kind of a thing. My wife has been wanting me to retire but I’ve been reluctant. She saw this as a lever. Its an opportunity I never would have imagined for myself, but I already host folks from the local audio club, this just extends that a bit.

The speakers in the avatar are Alsyvox Botticelli. I am getting those with the external crossovers, so the “X” model. Several RMAF reviews in 2018 and 2019 had those “best of show”. But this is amp thread I’ll stop there.

Totally understand... I admit to being jealous, especially of the Alsyvox... but as you say... wrong thread

... again, congratulations and enjoy!

**FishStalkerGuy** · April 2, 2021, 12:58 PM

Found this review on the Block's date June 2020: My top 5 cost-no-object power Amplifiers - YouTube

**a.wayne** · August 3, 2021, 09:18 AM

Nothing new Tiering up ..!

Regards

**u-sound** · August 3, 2021, 09:29 AM

we always could change the criterias again

**aKnyght** · August 3, 2021, 09:39 AM

how about doshi audio?

**bluegrassphile** · August 3, 2021, 11:59 AM

Based strictly upon my audition of seven of the amp brands you have listed I would move those into the first tier. I'm speaking of Luxman, VAC, Pass, Hegel, Gryphon, SimAudio and Naim. IMHO, these are exemplary brands with exemplary sound quality worthy of a top tier ranking. As I've said many times, it's mostly about preference. My personal preference is predictably for Pass Labs as I purchased a Pass INT 250 which I love. I did so after auditioning amps from the seven brands listed above. Not that the others listed in the top tier are not deserving. Purchasing any of them would be a wise move. But I would add the brands I've already mentioned. Part of my problem is my limited exposure to both amps and speakers. There are so many amps and speakers that I've never heard. And I don't live near any high end audio shops. The closest high end audio shop to me is a 4 hour drive. I'm just grateful that Mike opened his store for me so I could check out some of the best of the best. It did make my decision at least a little easier. It also made my weekend trip to Sarasota well worth the time and expense.

**stereogeek** · August 3, 2021, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by Randy Myers

I am not a huge fan of splitting various models within a brand to different tiers. It is almost like you are saying that Brand X makes this one amazing model that they use for brand reputation but then sell these other off shoots off the big boy's reputation.

I personally believe a brand is only as good as its lowest offerings; otherwise I feel that they are being deceiving with their lower models, since the obvious outcome is that they may sell a few of the high models and a ton of the low lines off the big model. I know there are some out there who have really top notch gear but also sell cheap knock offs which is not the same gear. A brand's reputation should be by its lowest models not its highest. The other method does eventual gain the company a bad reputation.

Lets use T+A as an example. Their HV series is absolutely amazing and deserves the praise it gets but the Series 8 is quite outstanding on its own and deserves the praise it gets. The DAC 8 DSD once again gained an A+ rating in the latest Stereophile magazine even though it is their "low" model. To me that is a stellar manufacture. You may give up some features or absolute highest level and power, but you get the same quality of construction, same house sound; you are indeed buying the same reputation and quality. This can not be said for many manufactures out there.

This post made me think about the components in my system. My Ayon CD player, my Ayon preamp, my Pass amp and my Volti speakers are the "entry level" models by these 3 manufacturers. The sound and build quality is most excellent, there is no buyers remorse here. Also, I feel pretty comfortable putting the entry level models by Fyne in this group also.

**calloway** · August 3, 2021, 08:04 PM

I have not heard all the above amps but I have heard many of them and I would not trade any of them for my Chalice Audio 'Grail' SET monoblocks...The other owner of these amps would also not trade his either.He thinks they are not only the best tube amps but the 'best amps'..

**Dizzie** · August 3, 2021, 08:17 PM

I think for an amplifier to be rated as "top tier", the company that makes them also has to be top tier. i.e. still in business and providing excellent customer service.

**calloway** · August 4, 2021, 07:50 PM

If you're talking about Chalice Audio and their 'Grail' monoblocks, they are still in business and will gladly make anyone a pair of their Grail amps or a pair of their soon to be finished 'Talisman' SET monoblocks.And by the way..the company's customer service is superb..By the way..how do you post a picture..?

**Dizzie** · August 4, 2021, 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by calloway

If you're talking about Chalice Audio and their 'Grail' monoblocks, they are still in business and will gladly make anyone a pair of their Grail amps or a pair of their soon to be finished 'Talisman' SET monoblocks.And by the way..the company's customer service is superb..By the way..how do you post a picture..?

Please post a link to the Chalice Audio website. Google can't find them.

$80,000/pair (in 2008 dollars).

**a.wayne** · August 4, 2021, 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by calloway

If you're talking about Chalice Audio and their 'Grail' monoblocks, they are still in business and will gladly make anyone a pair of their Grail amps or a pair of their soon to be finished 'Talisman' SET monoblocks.And by the way..the company's customer service is superb..By the way..how do you post a picture..?

In the mail with a stamp ....!

Regards

**bluegrassphile** · August 5, 2021, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by Dizzie

I think for an amplifier to be rated as "top tier", the company that makes them also has to be top tier. i.e. still in business and providing excellent customer service.

You just described Pass Labs. Among the best of the best.

**calloway** · August 5, 2021, 07:16 PM

....in the mail....."....How old are you???

**calloway** · August 5, 2021, 07:21 PM

First of all..I didn't think you had to have a 'website' to be in business.If you do want to know more about the amps read Alan Goldfine's review of them in PFM.....Keep in mind, the amps he reviewed were the prototypes..The final product was significantly improved .

**Rob181** · August 6, 2021, 02:24 AM

Originally Posted by calloway

First of all..I didn't think you had to have a 'website' to be in business.

Please - how many successful business's do you know who don't have a web site - or a technological exposure through a hosting website - eg a sole trader who is a plumber for example.

**bzr** · August 6, 2021, 03:06 AM

Originally Posted by Rob181

Please - how many successful business's do you know who don't have a web site - or a technological exposure through a hosting website - eg a sole trader who is a plumber for example.

What are these plumber amps you talk of Robert???

**Rob181** · August 6, 2021, 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by bzr

What are these plumber amps you talk of Robert???

They plumb to 20 hz - they reproduce music as clear as crystal water - the tempo has a rhythmic flow - they tap into my sub conscious - I'm flushed with excitement from what I hear - they render (bag) pipes beautifully : - )

**bzr** · August 7, 2021, 12:33 AM

well played

**The Sandman** · August 7, 2021, 10:27 AM

Strange thread.

I’m well satisfied with my “3rd tier” amps.

**nc42acc** · August 7, 2021, 01:10 PM

I don’t think this “tier” system has anything to do with sound quality. I am happy with my bargain basement tier amp.

Originally Posted by The Sandman

Strange thread.

I’m well satisfied with my “3rd tier” amps.

**Mike** · August 7, 2021, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by nc42acc

I don’t think this “tier” system has anything to do with sound quality. I am happy with my bargain basement tier amp.

My entire system will be Tier 3, so there you go. No, it’s not about sound, it’s about perception of the brand in the marketplace. Porsche or Ferrari is more highly regarded in the automotive world as top tier brands than Kia or Hyundai.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

**nc42acc** · August 7, 2021, 01:26 PM

Removed

Originally Posted by Mike

My entire system will be Tier 3, so there you go. No, it’s not about sound, it’s about perception of the brand in the marketplace. Porsche or Ferrari is more highly regarded in the automotive world as top tier brands than Kia or Hyundai.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

**bzr** · August 8, 2021, 06:23 AM

Originally Posted by Mike

My entire system will be Tier 3, so there you go. No, it’s not about sound, it’s about perception of the brand in the marketplace. Porsche or Ferrari is more highly regarded in the automotive world as top tier brands than Kia or Hyundai.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Still totally amazes me where the realisation of the concept went with this thread

**bluegrassphile** · August 8, 2021, 09:23 PM

This is not aimed at anyone in particular. Unless the shoe fits. It does with me. Just an observation...it's interesting how some people are drawn to components made by one man, two man, or otherwise small shops often for no other reason than it's different. For some it's financial. I suspect some are drawn to obscure name components only because they are new and, well, obscure name components. Or, because they're the flavor of the month. It seems to be a psychological kind of phenomena, I don't know.

As I mentioned above, I've occasionally been guilty of this, with guitar amps, electric, and acoustic guitars, mandolins, and banjos. But, you have the larger companies that have researched, designed and built audio components often for decades, and spending thousands of dollars on R&D. And along comes a small shop that, all of a sudden, makes the greatest component ever designed and the best sounding piece of equipment ever, "hands down." OTOH, you might have a highly trained and experienced person that perhaps worked in a large corporation designing audio components and they've designed and built something truly remarkable in their one man shop.

I guess if there is any take home message to this rambling post it's...just because it's new and obscure doesn't necessarily equal good. It has to perform and compete successfully with any company, large or small. And that can be a pretty tall order. Especially if you have to compete against well established companies like Pass Labs, Luxman, Harbeth, Klipsch, Bowers and Wilkins, etc. OK, that is all. Like I said...just an observation.

**Randy Myers** · August 11, 2021, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by Dizzie

Please post a link to the Chalice Audio website. Google can't find them.

$80,000/pair (in 2008 dollars).

This is the closest thing I found:
Chalice Audio
104 Mt. Laurel Drive
Lynchburg, VA 24503
Phone: (434) 258-5278
web address: www.chaliceaudio.com

But the website no longer exists. I did not try calling them since I have no interest in their products, however if I were interested in their $80,000 amplifiers I would sure proceed with extreme caution.

**CPP** · August 11, 2021, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by bluegrassphile

This is not aimed at anyone in particular. Unless the shoe fits. It does with me. Just an observation...it's interesting how some people are drawn to components made by one man, two man, or otherwise small shops often for no other reason than it's different. For some it's financial. I suspect some are drawn to obscure name components only because they are new and, well, obscure name components. Or, because they're the flavor of the month. It seems to be a psychological kind of phenomena, I don't know.

As I mentioned above, I've occasionally been guilty of this, with guitar amps, electric, and acoustic guitars, mandolins, and banjos. But, you have the larger companies that have researched, designed and built audio components often for decades, and spending thousands of dollars on R&D. And along comes a small shop that, all of a sudden, makes the greatest component ever designed and the best sounding piece of equipment ever, "hands down." OTOH, you might have a highly trained and experienced person that perhaps worked in a large corporation designing audio components and they've designed and built something truly remarkable in their one man shop.

I guess if there is any take home message to this rambling post it's...just because it's new and obscure doesn't necessarily equal good. It has to perform and compete successfully with any company, large or small. And that can be a pretty tall order. Especially if you have to compete against well established companies like Pass Labs, Luxman, Harbeth, Klipsch, Bowers and Wilkins, etc. OK, that is all. Like I said...just an observation.

I buy based on two things, company longevity and after the sell support.

**Feanor** · August 18, 2021, 01:58 PM

This thread is a source of bemusement to me. What really are the criteria for Tier placement?

Shear performance?
Subjective musicality?
Potential longevity?
Elegance of appearance or construction?
Brand prestige?
Resale value?

I suppose any of these could be Tier criteria but the relative weighting is going to vary hugely from person to person.

I'd love to have an amplifier that was high on all these criteria -- such as those suggested as some in the OP and various other postings. However for me the ain't going to happen. Accordingly I'm constrained to be select one or two of these potential criteria: for me they are performance, i.e. ultra-low distortion, stability, and sufficient power for my need. For now I'm content with my Purifi-based amp and consider it "Tier 1" in the category that matters to me.

**a.wayne** · August 18, 2021, 02:11 PM

All of the Above to be a top tier amp, so no Class D at any price will make the top tier category , as well as many others of course ...!

Regards

**Feanor** · August 18, 2021, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by a.wayne

All of the Above to be a top tier amp, so no Class D at any price will make the top tier category , as well as many others of course ...!

Regards

Well like I said, criteria for Tier inclusion is vary by person.

Some but not all class D amps are very high performance. So for instance Halcro is probably the lowest distortion amplifier in the world. Then again, detail, transparency, dynamics, and controlled bass aren't everyone's cup-of-tea.

**a.wayne** · August 18, 2021, 03:02 PM

Correct , just as Real, natural timbre and non hifi sound is not everyones cup of tea ..!

Sound preference is just one of the limited criteria for top Tier

Regards

**Mike** · August 18, 2021, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by Feanor

This thread is a source of bemusement to me. What really are the criteria for Tier placement?

Shear performance?
Subjective musicality?
Potential longevity?
Elegance of appearance or construction?
Brand prestige?
Resale value?

I suppose any of these could be Tier criteria but the relative weighting is going to vary hugely from person to person.

I'd love to have an amplifier that was high on all these criteria -- such as those suggested as some in the OP and various other postings. However for me the ain't going to happen. Accordingly I'm constrained to be select one or two of these potential criteria: for me they are performance, i.e. ultra-low distortion, stability, and sufficient power for my need. For now I'm content with my Purifi-based amp and consider it "Tier 1" in the category that matters to me.

Brand prestige. Not sure why so many people have a problem understanding it.

Ferrari - brand prestige
Kia - not so much

Not a commentary on the products as the Kia is likely more reliable than the Ferrari. But what has a higher brand prestige?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

**The Sandman** · August 18, 2021, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by Feanor

This thread is a source of bemusement to me. What really are the criteria for Tier placement?

Shear performance?
Subjective musicality?
Potential longevity?
Elegance of appearance or construction?
Brand prestige?
Resale value?

I suppose any of these could be Tier criteria but the relative weighting is going to vary hugely from person to person.

I'd love to have an amplifier that was high on all these criteria -- such as those suggested as some in the OP and various other postings. However for me the ain't going to happen. Accordingly I'm constrained to be select one or two of these potential criteria: for me they are performance, i.e. ultra-low distortion, stability, and sufficient power for my need. For now I'm content with my Purifi-based amp and consider it "Tier 1" in the category that matters to me.

Top-tier isn’t hard to define: of the highest level or rank with regard to quality, reputation, or importance.

That said, it will mean different things to audiophiles, reviewers, dealers, manufacturers and designers… they each have their own perspective.

**Feanor** · August 18, 2021, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by a.wayne

Correct , just as Real, natural timbre and non hifi sound is not everyones cup of tea ..!

Sound preference is just one of the limited criteria for top Tier

Regards

Of course, chacun à son goût as they say.

But personally I think my Purifi beats the Pass I owned for several years in natural timbre. Preferring the "body", etc., delivered by tubes or many s/s amps is a personal thing.

**a.wayne** · August 18, 2021, 09:53 PM

Anything Audio is a “personal “ thing ....!

Regards

**RDSChicago** · August 18, 2021, 11:12 PM

100% subjective! All that matters is how YOU like and enjoy the sound.

**Sujay** · August 19, 2021, 01:02 AM

Agree with you Mike......it’s fairly easy to comprehend. The only thing I would add to that is the perception of prestige generally differs from people to people and region to region. For instance, Mercedes as a car brand is held as prestigious in Asia and more specifically Singapore but probably not so much in Germany where a Mercedes is a commonplace brand. Now I do caveat that statement by saying the top end Mercs to hold prestige value..... the same kind of holds true for audio to a large extent.

Hope it’s making sense....

**brodricj** · August 19, 2021, 08:22 AM

There is only one amplifier ever to be credited with the headline banner on Stereophile magazine "Best Amplifier Ever!".

Halcro.

**Mike** · August 19, 2021, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by brodricj

There is only one amplifier ever to be credited with the headline banner on Stereophile magazine "Best Amplifier Ever!".

Halcro.

Maybe in 2002 it was.

**brodricj** · August 19, 2021, 08:30 AM

Nothing since then has earned similar acclaim on any mainstream audiophile magazine.

I've owned what was their top dog mono for 10 years. Then they went one better, and I had that on loan here for about a month. It doesn't really matter the price when you see no need to replace it after so long.

**Rob181** · August 19, 2021, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by brodricj

There is only one amplifier ever to be credited with the headline banner on Stereophile magazine "Best Amplifier Ever!".

Halcro.

Halcro - the surgeons knife

My Choice - the surgeons wife

The only alternative ever to be credited with - a full body - a feel for of rhythm - three dimensional - a sculptured exterior - an orgasmic experience - sadly no WFA

**Mikado463** · August 19, 2021, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by a.wayne

so no Class D at any price will make the top tier category , as well as many others of course ...!

and that I suppose is because the mid-range is not 'chocolatey' enough ?

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