Top Tier Amps

Ok, there it is. Now that changes things.

So, you say this is a list based on price and perception. Products being more expensive are more highly regarded. As simple as that. Fair enough.

What would be interesting though, is a list based on performance and value. Then the most interesting components are the category killers IMHO. I.e. products that punch above their price point.


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I’ve been saying “price & performance” since the OP. Some people will get some serious butt hurt if their beloved Halcro amp isn’t Tier 1. That isn’t the point of my post. I’m trying to gauge whether we can put personal biases aside and show what we believe the market (general high-end audio population) perceives a particular brand as.

Value would be a whole different topic! That’s where our personal biases and experiences come into play. Maybe you can start one?
 
Back to the original question...

While a tier listing will always be contentious, as the truth is in the eyes or the ears of the beholder, a different question is how the market will evolve.

A general take from an economic point of view is, that usually in a constrained market (Covid induced depression) people tend to stick to their guns. I.e. are looking for already established value positions. That would would in principle speak for established players.

However, the same effect creates room for challengers focusing on performance-based value. I.e. people are looking for better offers from either established players or challengers. But then again new entrants will struggle to establish a reputation. This creates an opportunity space for renewal at established players.

One approach is looking at the market from price & perception point of view like Mike did. But a ranking/ tier list Is always subjective and hence difficult. Another perspective would be looking at established and new players from a performance & value point of view.

This is just an excerpt of selected players’ performance and value positions from personal experience perspective (I do not have a comprehensive view):

Traditionals:
- Constellation: Highly acclaimed sound performance, but products don’t move and hence prices have strongly deteriorated - performance ++/ value - -
- Boulder: Acclaimed, but also partly perceived dry, very high price points prohibitive for most of the market, also demo units highly discounted - performance +/ value - -
- Gryphon: Acclaimed sound, particularly in class A biased models, but design is an acquired taste and price points are very high - performance +/ value -
- CH & Spectral: Very highly acclaimed sound for those who like it, but it’s an acquired taste, CH keeps innovating while Spectral is pretty much dead, esp. CH with prohibitively high price points - performance (+)(+)/ value +/-
- Pass: Solid performers throughout the range, continuous innovation, but not the leader in any area - performance +/ value +
- Dart: Top performers in highest tier, but on integrated level only average, prohibitive price points for anyone - performance ++/ value +
- Soulution: Highly acclaimed, while too dry for some, great first years, but little innovation in nearly a decade and prices deteriorating strongly - performance ++/ value -
- MBL: High-end bling bling golden rims etc, strictly system play - performance +/ value +/-
- T+A: Keep innovating, full product range, but never quite the best-of-the-best, reputation problem - performance +/- / value +/-
- Dag: High priced, high performing, a bit blingy design - performance ++/ value +
- ARC & Octave: Do have their following with toob aficionados, but need to keep all focus on getting tubes to perform appropriately - performance +/ value -

Movers & shakers:
- Classé (superb value with high performance): For me one of the current top value providers, almost mere hi-fi heritage. But with the new Delta series shifting from high power to high current on high impedance level, and achieving really good results - performance +/ value +++
- AudioNet (superb performance with relatively high value): Breaking new ground with the scientist series, but like CH, Spectral you need to like the sound signature (previous gen. very different), and accept rather high price points - performance +++/ value +

Also ran:
- AVM, ASR, Accustic Arts, VTL, Bryston, SimAudio, Naim, Ayre, Hegel, Macintosh, Symphonic Line, Aavik, Parasound, Bel Canto, Wyred, Cambridge, NAD (and a lots of others I’m not interested in either)


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Interesting observations.
 
This is an interesting thread with the expected diversity of views. From a personal ownership perspective, I'm quite interested in the value component. It helps to protect me if I make a mistake or change course. Things like a high end brand's reputation for quality and performance, Bryston's 20-year transferrable warranty are important. I bought a new Mark Levinson No. 331 about 25 years ago at a small discount. It was the best that I could afford at the time. This was back in the day that ML was definitely a Tier 1 brand. I loved the sound. Sold it several years ago (never broken/re-capped) for about 1/3 of what I paid for it. A fine product, and the new owner is reportedly very happy. For me this is the kind of ownership experience I look for.
 
I don’t know about you guys, but I see the amp market currently in basically four tiers:

Tier 1: Gryphon, Boulder, Soulution, CH, D’Ag, Dart, Constellation, Goldmund, FM Acoustics, Vitus, MSB, Kondo, Wavac, etc.
Tier 2: T+A, Pass XS, Sim 888, Naim 500, VAC, MBL, VTL, Nagra, Spectral, Esoteric Grandioso, AudioNet, Rowland, Air Tight, etc.
Tier 3: Luxman, Sim, Pass, Naim, Classe’, Bryston, Hegel, Accuphase, ARC, Ayre, Mcintosh, etc.
Tier 4: Parasound, Bel Canto, Wyred, Cambridge, NAD, etc.


The marketplace for top tier amps is more crowded than ever with newcomers like Pillium, Block and others.

What are your thoughts on the current amp market?

Will we see a resurgence from brands like Ayre, Accustic Arts (an amp/preamp I had in the store and was floored by their performance) or Zanden or Ypsilon?

Will we see newcomers like Block and others gaining interest or will the stranglehold from the big boys continue to hold?

The only brand that I would seriously argue was misplaced was VAC ... I get that because they offer some lower priced components too that might have moved them down to Tier 2 but everyone that I know ... when we talk about VAC Statement ... consider it amongst the very best at any price and I think its price qualifies for Tier 1 pricing for sure! Of course "the best" will differ for each of us based on our own preferences which is great and opens the door for lots of competition.

George
 
The only brand that I would seriously argue was misplaced was VAC ... I get that because they offer some lower priced components too that might have moved them down to Tier 2 but everyone that I know ... when we talk about VAC Statement ... consider it amongst the very best at any price and I think its price qualifies for Tier 1 pricing for sure! Of course "the best" will differ for each of us based on our own preferences which is great and opens the door for lots of competition.

George

Fair enough. Adjusted!


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hey mike, do you think the hegel h 30 is tier 3 ? or just hegel in general. john

I loved my H30, but I think it’s in the same group (from a price/consumer perspective standpoint) as the Luxman m900u, Sim 860v2, Classe Delta Stereo, Pass X350.8.

Thoughts?


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where is something like a Lamm?

We talked about Lamm above. It’s an odd one. MSRP is high, but resale is abysmal (for reasons I can’t say publicly). I recently had a customer in Atlanta trying to trade in over $120k MSRP worth of Lamm gear on either Soulution, Boulder or Gryphon. Dealers (including me) were giving him $15k on the Lamm gear. None of us wanted it.

What do you think? Tier 2? Their low powered SET amps do sound wonderful.

5066aefa3d35e2757f70bdcad05cec46.jpeg



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I’ve been saying “price & performance” since the OP.
can you elaborate on that?
does the relation count? is high or low price better?

love this tread but it would be easyer to do if it was about the performance & perception of the manufactors topmodels.
mixing the price in is like water and oil imho.
 
can you elaborate on that?
does the relation count? is high or low price better?

love this tread but it would be easyer to do if it was about the performance & perception of the manufactors topmodels.
mixing the price in is like water and oil imho.

That’s a fair point. Price can often drive perception. If you see monoblocks for $175k from a well known brand, you may think “tier 1”. Sonically, you think tier 4! But I’m not talking about personal opinion of sonics. Check our biases at the door and look at the market as a whole. How is that amp brand perceived?

I’m used to speaking with 50 or more audiophile folks a week and it’s interesting to see what they consider “top tier”. There is a general consensus (which I posted above in the first post). What I’m trying to figure out is whether you guys agree (there does appear to be some general consensus) and whether there are brands that maybe were tier 1, 5 years ago, but have fallen from grace. Jock mentioned some above.


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Obviously I have little experience in most of these brands but a couple things come to mind. Are we talking over all brands or just individual models? Most of these manufactures make multiple lines of gear. Would the Goldmund models also include Job (they were manufactured side by side, and yes I know they are now discontinued). Just trying to gain a perspective.

Another example, would the T+A Amp 8 be included in the T+A on your list? We compared it to several amps and it always came out on top.

How about historical perspective? Many people feel classic McIntosh's would compare with many of these, but would not put current Mc's with any of these. As an example I prefer my classic McIntosh's over any amplifier I have owned, which have been a decent amount.

Resale may also be considered a factor. Many of these brands would be extremely hard to resell while, McIntosh, ARC, etc., sell extremely easy and for top dollar.
 
This is an interesting thread with the expected diversity of views. From a personal ownership perspective, I'm quite interested in the value component. It helps to protect me if I make a mistake or change course. Things like a high end brand's reputation for quality and performance, Bryston's 20-year transferrable warranty are important. I bought a new Mark Levinson No. 331 about 25 years ago at a small discount. It was the best that I could afford at the time. This was back in the day that ML was definitely a Tier 1 brand. I loved the sound. Sold it several years ago (never broken/re-capped) for about 1/3 of what I paid for it. A fine product, and the new owner is reportedly very happy. For me this is the kind of ownership experience I look for.

I’m also commenting from an ownership point of view.

Current thoughts:
- I think the Classé monos are a bargain for what they do. The pre is somewhat gadgety, but I think I could live with it
- at the same time, I do like the Boulder 1110/ 2160 combo, in demos and also in Mike’s videos they do sound great

But:
- while the Classé set is a great offer for what they do, but would I stick with them a while
- alternatively, it’s that I just would have to sink in three times the money to get the Boulders, but when I later sell, the re-sale value is maybe only 1/3 higher than the Classé combo

Caveat emptor.


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We talked about Lamm above. It’s an odd one. MSRP is high, but resale is abysmal (for reasons I can’t say publicly). I recently had a customer in Atlanta trying to trade in over $120k MSRP worth of Lamm gear on either Soulution, Boulder or Gryphon. Dealers (including me) were giving him $15k on the Lamm gear. None of us wanted it.

What do you think? Tier 2? Their low powered SET amps do sound wonderful.

5066aefa3d35e2757f70bdcad05cec46.jpeg



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What top Tier speakers are those ..?
 
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