Top Tier Amps

Tier 1 adding - Spectral , Esoteric Grandioso and Nagra

Never heard it - but, what about MSB amps?

mdp632 said:

Tier 1 adding - Spectral , Esoteric Grandioso and Nagra

Never heard it - but, what about MSB amps?

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Good points! I made the list from memory...you can see how reliable that is! I forgot MSB and even have their amp in the store! DOH. I’ll add MSB to Tier 1/2.

Cue everyone on the forum who thinks they have a “giant killer” amp that should be in tier 1 in 3,2...

MPW said:

Cue everyone on the forum who thinks they have a “giant killer” amp that should be in tier 1 in 3,2...

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Yes,

Spectral SV amps specifically, their highest end tier.

Although not cheap but, their value is they compete with the best Switzerland (low distortion, high resolution and extreme neutrality)

Might not be everyone's cup of tea or subjective preference.

But, when you consider in US MSRP , many of these Swiss Tier 1 monoblocks are 100k ish a pair.

Spectral is value in this regard.

I like Spectral, but I don’t consider it in Tier 1. It’s solid in Tier 2 with a great group of performers, including my own personal amps!


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Mike said:

I don’t know about you guys, but I see the amp market currently in basically four tiers:

Tier 1: Gryphon, Boulder, Soulution, CH, D’Ag, Dart, AudioNet, Constellation, Goldmund, FM Acoustics, Vitus, MSB, etc.
Tier 2: T+A, Pass XS, Sim 888, Naim 500, VAC, MBL, VTL, Nagra, Spectral, Esoteric Grandioso, etc.
Tier 3: Luxman, Sim, Pass, Naim, Bryston, Hegel, Accuphase, ARC, Ayre, etc.
Tier 4: Parasound, Bel Canto, Wyred, Cambridge, NAD, etc.


The marketplace for top tier amps is more crowded than ever with newcomers like Pillium, Block and others.

What are your thoughts on the current amp market?

Will we see a resurgence from brands like Ayre, Accustic Arts (an amp/preamp I had in the store and was floored by their performance) or Zanden or Ypsilon?

Will we see newcomers like Block and others gaining interest or will the stranglehold from the big boys continue to hold?

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opcorn:

maybe based on cost, but I really think amps come down to circuit and speaker match moreso than other components. for instance, Ayre on the right speaker sounds better than amps with tons of negative feedback like Soulution/Audionet to my ears. super duper 1000w SS behemoths don't sound good on horns. in tubeland, same problem - many would argue SET sounds better than any of the massed tetrode amps from the big 3.

i also think there are very few good SS amps, so there's that.

ps. I just read that Halcro's back lol

I have not had the opportunity to spend much time with several of the amps so for the most part I'll defer to your experience. I will say that in many instances the Tier an amp may fall into will depend on ther associated speaker. For example if you have MBL speakers then MBL 9 series amps would we Tier 1. With some speakers (larger Focals) Accuphase easy moves up a Tier or two in your list. The one "I" believe you missed was McIntosh. With most speakers they belong above everything besides Accuphase in Tiers 3 and 4.

EMM in the top tier?


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Phishphan said:

EMM in the top tier?


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In price, I would say yes. In performance, I haven’t had enough exposure to the amps. What’s your thoughts?


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Mike said:

I don’t know about you guys, but I see the amp market currently in basically four tiers:

Tier 1: Gryphon, Boulder, Soulution, CH, D’Ag, Dart, AudioNet, Constellation, Goldmund, FM Acoustics, Vitus, MSB, etc.
Tier 2: T+A, Pass XS, Sim 888, Naim 500, VAC, MBL, VTL, Nagra, Spectral, Esoteric Grandioso, etc.
Tier 3: Luxman, Sim, Pass, Naim, Classe’, Bryston, Hegel, Accuphase, ARC, Ayre, Mcintosh, etc.
Tier 4: Parasound, Bel Canto, Wyred, Cambridge, NAD, etc.


The marketplace for top tier amps is more crowded than ever with newcomers like Pillium, Block and others.

What are your thoughts on the current amp market?

Will we see a resurgence from brands like Ayre, Accustic Arts (an amp/preamp I had in the store and was floored by their performance) or Zanden or Ypsilon?

Will we see newcomers like Block and others gaining interest or will the stranglehold from the big boys continue to hold?

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Mike,
Interesting list. I am in no way challenging your conclusions -- after all you have by far the most experience in terms of actual detailed audition of electronics from top notch brands and at the end of the day, this is a subjective list. I just have a couple of comments. First of all, in my opinion, some of this is driven by the advertising and the "reputation" of various brands. If it is a boutique manufacturer coming out of a small European company, it must be great -- case in point is CH Precision. I do not have much of an opinion on it since I have only heard their electronics once at RMAF but you have commented on more than 1 occasion that you think the sound is too dry and analytical. Yet, you still put the brand in Tier 1.
The second pertains to Accuphase -- we all rag on Accuphase because of the crazy US pricing strategy by the distributor (I would include myself in that category) but I have been amazed by my Accuphase A70 amp and would feel confident in putting it up against any brand on this list (not in terms of sheer power but for quality of sound). If there was a way you could have the top of the line Accupase A250 monoblocks in your store, I would be curious to see where you put them.

Anshul

Looks as if most expensive amps are on tier I so the list is based on amp cost, not necessarily on sound quality?

nicoff said:

Looks as if most expensive amps are on tier I so the list is based on amp cost, not necessarily on sound quality?

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Fair question: I was thinking “market perception” and price since our favorites will always be tier 1 for us!


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Mike said:

In price, I would say yes. In performance, I haven’t had enough exposure to the amps. What’s your thoughts?


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Have only heard them via FaceTime with Ed’s son on a pair of Wilson Alexx he had in the shop.

There was a pair here in Minneapolis at some reviewers house last year, and I was going to get connected with him for a listen to perhaps buy them after his review. Covid hit, so I never got over there, and it sounds like he decided to keep them.. so they never made the journey over to my house in route back to EMM.

We’re looking at moving back to West Palm for 6 months of the year, so I’m either going to build a 2nd system.. or create 2 smaller ones from some of my existing gear. EMM amps will most certainly come into the discussion when I start that process.


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apdoc2004 said:

Mike,
Interesting list. I am in no way challenging your conclusions -- after all you have by far the most experience in terms of actual detailed audition of electronics from top notch brands and at the end of the day, this is a subjective list. I just have a couple of comments. First of all, in my opinion, some of this is driven by the advertising and the "reputation" of various brands. If it is a boutique manufacturer coming out of a small European company, it must be great -- case in point is CH Precision. I do not have much of an opinion on it since I have only heard their electronics once at RMAF but you have commented on more than 1 occasion that you think the sound is too dry and analytical. Yet, you still put the brand in Tier 1.
The second pertains to Accuphase -- we all rag on Accuphase because of the crazy US pricing strategy by the distributor (I would include myself in that category) but I have been amazed by my Accuphase A70 amp and would feel confident in putting it up against any brand on this list (not in terms of sheer power but for quality of sound). If there was a way you could have the top of the line Accupase A250 monoblocks in your store, I would be curious to see where you put them.

Anshul

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Fair question. I wasn’t thinking of “what is my favorite’s and ranking accordingly”, but rather market perception. CH might not be your cup of tea, but does the market consider it a top tier brand? I think so. No? For example, to use a car analogy, I would never buy a Mercedes Benz because I can still envision my music teacher from the 1970’s driving away in her noisy, black smoke billowing out the back end power blue Mercedes. Sometimes, you just can’t those visions out of your head you know. Does this mean it’s not a “tier 1” luxury car brand? No. Which brings us to a whole other topic of FIRST IMPRESSIONS. If I had a dollar for every time someone walked in the store and said “oh, I will never consider a Magico, I heard them once 10 years ago, I think it was a Q5 and I didn’t care for it”, I would could take a nice vacation. No matter how many times you say, “but...but...but...Magico’s today have evolved tremendously”, they have that stuck in their head. It’s my job then to play them the M2’s and I have to tell you, many of those folks listened in disbelief, no kidding, some even had to get up and get the back of the speaker to make sure I didn’t put in some other brand. No kidding. And some even bought them. We are all guilty of first impression bias. Myself included.

I wasn’t sure on Audionet. I know their new Heisenberg is getting some attention, but maybe it’s more tier 2?

(Adjusted)

Mike,

Is this list based on prices alone or is it subjective?

If subjective, would you mind elaborate a bit on your thought process please?

Thanks!

I think some company's line-ups vary considerably, others might be consistent across their range

For instance, Soulution 700 series are highly regarded, the 500 stuff (which I owned) pretty pedestrian. So here 700 series Tier 1, 500 series Tier 4

Also what about DartZeel?

Kingsrule said:

I think some company's line-ups vary considerably, others might be consistent across their range

For instance, Soulution 700 series are highly regarded, the 500 stuff (which I owned) pretty pedestrian. So here 700 series Tier 1, 500 series Tier 4

Also what about DartZeel?

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Fair point. I wasn’t thinking too much about the product (although I did split pass and one or two others), I was thinking more about perception. Soulution, I think, is perceived as tier 1. They do make the 3 series, which is maybe tier 3 level, but I think Soulution is regarded as top tier.


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