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Thread: Top Tier Amps

  1. #201
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    You already heard the McIntosh... ... Just kidding ... I really do like my classic McIntosh though. I could never afford a Tier 1 amplifier anyway.
    Yeah...unfortunately me too Randy. Tier 2 would be a a long stretch as well. Along with a Tier 1 or 2 amp would be the preamp.
    Paul

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  2. #202
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    The way I understand this tier thought is - a tier manufacturer 4 amp might very well out perform a tier manufacturer 1 amp that's any where close to the same cost

    There is a sweet amp / speaker / anything in any manufacturers line up.
    Jock

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  3. #203

    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucidear View Post
    Mike
    Caelin Gabriel in this thread:
    What's a component you just love
    Seemed to rate the Ayon Crossfire much higher than tier2.
    I recently purchased an Ayon preamp. I was so impressed with it, went ahead and bought the Ayon Epsilon Evo monoblock amps. I had narrowed it down to Arc, Vac and Ayon and mostly due to personal preference chose the Ayon. I am sure I would be ecstatic with any of these brands having listened to all of them at different times. I found the Ayon build quality and attention to detail is right there with my experience with Rowland equipment I have owned. One of my concerns with Ayon was all the ads on Audiogon, I am not a fan of gear that people constantly offload. However I found finding used Ayon gear was not readily available in the US and the abundance of ads where from a dealer selling new gear. I ended up buying new. Based on my experience I'd put Ayon in tier 2 but this is limited to my experience with 3 pieces of Ayon gear. I agree with Mike when he says Ayon does not have a big presence in the US.

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  4. #204
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Audiophilehi View Post
    Yeah...unfortunately me too Randy. Tier 2 would be a a long stretch as well. Along with a Tier 1 or 2 amp would be the preamp.
    Well used is about the only way for me to to obtain Tier 1. And at my age, I couldn't pick it up anyway LOL
    2chl : Vincent Sp331MkII, W4S STP-SE Stage 2, Kef 201/2, KEF 140, Vapor Breeze, Lumin, Bryston CD, BHA-1, Quicksilver Headamp, HD650, HD800s, HD820's, Dan Clark 1.1, Focal Stellia, OPPO 203, 105. ( Boxed up: Pass Xa-30.5, VPI Classic, Dynavector DV-20XL, Manley Chinook, Cadenza Bronze)

  5. #205
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    Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGemState View Post
    I recently purchased an Ayon preamp. I was so impressed with it, went ahead and bought the Ayon Epsilon Evo monoblock amps. I had narrowed it down to Arc, Vac and Ayon and mostly due to personal preference chose the Ayon. I am sure I would be ecstatic with any of these brands having listened to all of them at different times. I found the Ayon build quality and attention to detail is right there with my experience with Rowland equipment I have owned. One of my concerns with Ayon was all the ads on Audiogon, I am not a fan of gear that people constantly offload. However I found finding used Ayon gear was not readily available in the US and the abundance of ads where from a dealer selling new gear. I ended up buying new. Based on my experience I'd put Ayon in tier 2 but this is limited to my experience with 3 pieces of Ayon gear. I agree with Mike when he says Ayon does not have a big presence in the US.

    Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk
    Ayon could be a great brand here in the U.S., but unfortunately they fall into another category mentioned above.


    Speaking of that distributor, did you see the shit show they caused here in the US for Avantgarde (and why I’ve been so quiet on Avantgarde lately)?

    Read the bottom part (in bold):

    Avantgarde UNO XD | Full-Range | Audiogon

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  6. #206
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    It sucks when a well regarded brand has issues such as these with distributers.

    From my understanding something similar happened with T+A, and the bad distributer actually told Stereophile as a revenge act, that a particular model was discontinued, when it wasn't, and it was removed from their A+ ratings (it was later added back in when the real scoop was told to Stereophile). This distributer really hurt the brand in the US, which is hopefully now gaining back its reputation.
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  7. #207

    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGemState View Post
    I recently purchased an Ayon preamp. I was so impressed with it, went ahead and bought the Ayon Epsilon Evo monoblock amps. I had narrowed it down to Arc, Vac and Ayon and mostly due to personal preference chose the Ayon. I am sure I would be ecstatic with any of these brands having listened to all of them at different times. I found the Ayon build quality and attention to detail is right there with my experience with Rowland equipment I have owned. One of my concerns with Ayon was all the ads on Audiogon, I am not a fan of gear that people constantly offload. However I found finding used Ayon gear was not readily available in the US and the abundance of ads where from a dealer selling new gear. I ended up buying new. Based on my experience I'd put Ayon in tier 2 but this is limited to my experience with 3 pieces of Ayon gear. I agree with Mike when he says Ayon does not have a big presence in the US.

    Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk
    Hmmmm!
    I should have paid attention to Mike’s OP, that it’s mostly about Perception and not necessarily Performance...
    The two Ps don’t always correlate, that is IMHO...

  8. #208
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Ayon could be a great brand here in the U.S., but unfortunately they fall into another category mentioned above.


    Speaking of that distributor, did you see the shit show they caused here in the US for Avantgarde (and why I’ve been so quiet on Avantgarde lately)?

    Read the bottom part (in bold):

    Avantgarde UNO XD | Full-Range | Audiogon

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    That really sucks, a good brand can easily be destroyed by bad distributors.
    Pre amp: Ocatve Phono Module Power amps: Octave MRE130 Turntable: SAC Girati Grande. Tonearm: Dynavector 507mkII Cartridge: Dynavector Ikeda 9TT Streamer: Aurender A10 Power Distributor: Anzus Mains D8 Speakers: Raidho X-3 Speaker Cables: AudioQuest Rocket 88 XLR Interlink: Ansuz A2, [B]XLR Interlink: [B]Phono interlink: Cammino Serie 1.0 - PH 1.0s Power cables: Anzus Mains Ceramic, two Pom, Aluminium, X series Audio Rack: Rack of Silence 4 and 2.

  9. #209
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordante View Post
    That really sucks, a good brand can easily be destroyed by bad distributors.
    My experience with distributors has convinced me to now only buy made in the US products. Lots of excellent manufacturers to choose from. No service hassles. More dealers or buy direct options. Good resale. Its my patriotic duty to spend lots of money on audio equipment.

  10. #210
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzie View Post
    My experience with distributors has convinced me to now only buy made in the US products. Lots of excellent manufacturers to choose from. No service hassles. More dealers or buy direct options. Good resale. Its my patriotic duty to spend lots of money on audio equipment.
    I think in Europe even if the dealer is next to the manufacturer it often still goes through a distributor. I'm not aware of any brand that does direct sales. Direct sales are good for the customer but the death of dealers.
    Pre amp: Ocatve Phono Module Power amps: Octave MRE130 Turntable: SAC Girati Grande. Tonearm: Dynavector 507mkII Cartridge: Dynavector Ikeda 9TT Streamer: Aurender A10 Power Distributor: Anzus Mains D8 Speakers: Raidho X-3 Speaker Cables: AudioQuest Rocket 88 XLR Interlink: Ansuz A2, [B]XLR Interlink: [B]Phono interlink: Cammino Serie 1.0 - PH 1.0s Power cables: Anzus Mains Ceramic, two Pom, Aluminium, X series Audio Rack: Rack of Silence 4 and 2.

  11. #211
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordante View Post
    I think in Europe even if the dealer is next to the manufacturer it often still goes through a distributor. I'm not aware of any brand that does direct sales. Direct sales are good for the customer but the death of dealers.
    I purchased my Hattor gear straight from Arek. I know that Goldmund used to sell their Job line direct. I would think there are others but I could not name anynow.
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  12. #212
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordante View Post
    I think in Europe even if the dealer is next to the manufacturer it often still goes through a distributor. I'm not aware of any brand that does direct sales. Direct sales are good for the customer but the death of dealers.
    I purchased my Hattor gear (Pre-amplifiers, amplifiers, tube active stages, etc. - Poland) straight from Arek. I know that Goldmund use to sell their Job line direct (Amplifiers - Switzerland), Rothwell (Attenuators, phono stages - UK). I would think there are others but I could not name any now.
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  13. #213
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordante View Post
    That really sucks, a good brand can easily be destroyed by bad distributors.
    A bad distributor usually means you are going to get poor service as well. Said.
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  14. #214
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by CPP View Post
    A bad distributor usually means you are going to get poor service as well. Said.
    and a good dealer knows to be mindful and stay away from bad distributors ………...
    Cheers ! …. Dave

  15. #215

    Re: Top Tier Amps

    It's bad enough when the distributor isn't very good

    It's worse when distributor doesn't even have inventory to distribute.

    It's even worse when the distributor is also a dealer (like Audionet). Why would a dealer get involved with a line when the distributor is also a dealer that steps on the line twice? No wonder arrangements like Audionet have in NA make the line a nonstarter that basically has no fundamental support with quality dealers.

    Add to it that many of these distributors are dicks and you have a plate of no good.

    Ultimately these arrangements limit us audiophiles to these brands.....
    "We all know real when we hear it"

  16. #216
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikado463 View Post
    and a good dealer knows to be mindful and stay away from bad distributors ………...
    Got that right.
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  17. #217
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikado463 View Post
    and a good dealer knows to be mindful and stay away from bad distributors ………...
    True... but again that really hurts good brands... after finding out a distributer is bad it may take the company a long time to gain back well deserved confidence and reputation. Unfortunately this almost always hurts resale value which in turn damages a companies reputation even more. Again T+A is a really good example. Tremendous equipment... in Europe extremely highly rated... but as The Music Room told me it is extremely hard to sell. So, additive effects make it hard to find pre-owned and dealers.
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  18. #218
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    wow, great thread, amazed to see Spectral, up there, by some as tier 1, as a spectral owner love the sound, but agree can't get my head around their distribution, and worldwide thinking, still no thread on here though, mike and i, had a talk a few years ago, Spectral is a volatile subject, great gear but name calling was apparent, by many, in England, we seem not to be as driven as the usa, into hifi, but still have understanding of A+ brands even if we can't afford them or even listen to them, heard FM acoustics at a show waited all year to hear this brand, i know it was a show but the sound was UMM ok, with their own speakers, price was shocking, would not touch them, dealers in England want to sell you something every time you walk through the door, NO come for a talk or listen, hard sell or don't bother me, some exceptions obviously, and they are the ones that get my money, can't buy new anymore as the price is truly shocking, and used, is still a painful experience, even more so now we are out of the EU, but we can dream,

  19. #219

    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by greystoke4 View Post
    wow, great thread, amazed to see Spectral, up there, by some as tier 1, as a spectral owner love the sound, but agree can't get my head around their distribution, and worldwide thinking, still no thread on here though, mike and i, had a talk a few years ago, Spectral is a volatile subject, great gear but name calling was apparent, by many, in England, we seem not to be as driven as the usa, into hifi, but still have understanding of A+ brands even if we can't afford them or even listen to them, heard FM acoustics at a show waited all year to hear this brand, i know it was a show but the sound was UMM ok, with their own speakers, price was shocking, would not touch them, dealers in England want to sell you something every time you walk through the door, NO come for a talk or listen, hard sell or don't bother me, some exceptions obviously, and they are the ones that get my money, can't buy new anymore as the price is truly shocking, and used, is still a painful experience, even more so now we are out of the EU, but we can dream,
    What about Chord Electronics? How are their amps? Certainly probably UK's answer to Swiss precision and very similar to Spectral. Switching amp, low distortion, high resolution and extreme neutrality.

  20. #220
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordante View Post
    That really sucks, a good brand can easily be destroyed by bad distributors.
    Siltech in Canada. Prices instantly went up 30%...off topic sorry.

  21. #221

    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by greystoke4 View Post
    wow, great thread, amazed to see Spectral, up there, by some as tier 1, as a spectral owner love the sound, but agree can't get my head around their distribution, and worldwide thinking, still no thread on here though, mike and i, had a talk a few years ago, Spectral is a volatile subject, great gear but name calling was apparent, by many, in England, we seem not to be as driven as the usa, into hifi, but still have understanding of A+ brands even if we can't afford them or even listen to them, heard FM acoustics at a show waited all year to hear this brand, i know it was a show but the sound was UMM ok, with their own speakers, price was shocking, would not touch them, dealers in England want to sell you something every time you walk through the door, NO come for a talk or listen, hard sell or don't bother me, some exceptions obviously, and they are the ones that get my money, can't buy new anymore as the price is truly shocking, and used, is still a painful experience, even more so now we are out of the EU, but we can dream,
    I would agree that Spectral, having heard it many times is not Tier 1. I would struggle to put it at Tier 2.
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    What do you guys think of Block amps?



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  23. #223
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by FishStalkerGuy View Post
    What do you guys think of Block amps?



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I want to hear them!


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  24. #224

    Top Tier Amps

    Block

    >> Me too Top Tier Amps


    Gesendet von iPad mit Tapatalk
    Last edited by Elztalbiker; March 28, 2021 at 03:21 PM. Reason: Block

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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by FishStalkerGuy View Post
    What do you guys think of Block amps?



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Czech?


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  26. #226
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Phishphan View Post
    Czech?


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    Yes. I heard them once, but the speakers were lousy, so can’t make a fair judgement.
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

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  27. #227
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Yes. I heard them once, but the speakers were lousy, so can’t make a fair judgement.
    Eastern Europe is not where I think of engineering prowess... and these are not inexpensive.


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  28. #228
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Phishphan View Post
    Eastern Europe is not where I think of engineering prowess... and these are not inexpensive.


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    When you go to Munich, you’re surprised by great stuff from all over.


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  29. #229
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    Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Phishphan View Post
    Czech?


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    Here I thought they were German. I have a friend in Germany that raves about the amp.


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  30. #230
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    When you go to Munich, you’re surprised by great stuff from all over.


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    German is my thing. I'm 98% German. Drive BMW. But this isn't German


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    Preamp/Digital: Meitner MA3
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  31. #231
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Phishphan View Post
    German is my thing. I'm 98% German. Drive BMW. But this isn't German


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Correct, not German......all Czech.......My wife is German though, I thinkTop Tier Amps


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  32. #232

    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGemState View Post
    I recently purchased an Ayon preamp. I was so impressed with it, went ahead and bought the Ayon Epsilon Evo monoblock amps. I had narrowed it down to Arc, Vac and Ayon and mostly due to personal preference chose the Ayon. I am sure I would be ecstatic with any of these brands having listened to all of them at different times. I found the Ayon build quality and attention to detail is right there with my experience with Rowland equipment I have owned. One of my concerns with Ayon was all the ads on Audiogon, I am not a fan of gear that people constantly offload. However I found finding used Ayon gear was not readily available in the US and the abundance of ads where from a dealer selling new gear. I ended up buying new. Based on my experience I'd put Ayon in tier 2 but this is limited to my experience with 3 pieces of Ayon gear. I agree with Mike when he says Ayon does not have a big presence in the US.

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    Ayon certainly builds quality pieces, no doubt about that.

  33. #233

    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Interesting, but how is this actionable?

  34. #234

    Re: Top Tier Amps

    And why so few tube gears?

  35. #235
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Phishphan View Post
    Eastern Europe is not where I think of engineering prowess... and these are not inexpensive.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    its not that simple. Czechoslovakia is central Europe not Eastern, a large slice of the Czech population are considered ethnic Germans. if you like Porsche cars you'll know Dr Ferry was Bohemian which was part of Austro-Hungarian Empire but is now Czechoslovakia.

  36. #236
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by puroagave View Post
    its not that simple. Czechoslovakia is central Europe not Eastern, a large slice of the Czech population are considered ethnic Germans. if you like Porsche cars you'll know Dr Ferry was Bohemian which was part of Austro-Hungarian Empire but is now Czechoslovakia.
    But Ferdinand Porsche was an Austrian-German ... for what it actually matters .
    McIntosh C49, MC152, MR85, R778 | T+A DAC 8 DSD | KEF LS50 Meta w/S2, KC62 (x2) | Rega RP8, Ania Pro, NEO PSU | Technics SL-1500C | Audio Technica VM750ML | Hexmat Eclipse, Yellow Bird, Molekula, Molekula Mini | Pro-Ject VC-E | Falcon NW PC Server (Roon Core & HQPlayer) | Microsoft Surface Pro 6 (Roon Controller) | Abyss Diana Phi | Schiit Jotunheim 2 | Astell&Kern SE200 | Oppo BDP105

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  37. #237

    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Mike, I do not see Accoustic Arts on your list. Didn’t you mention that you had a set in the store at some point?


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  38. #238
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    Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuoppis View Post
    Mike, I do not see Accoustic Arts on your list. Didn’t you mention that you had a set in the store at some point?


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Yes. I put them in group 3 for now, NOT DUE TO PERFORMANCE, but rather, because of market perception. Not a lot of people have heard them and those who have rank them with Pass, maybe a notch above. Let’s see if we have any comments here.

    Got to say, I really don’t think PS Audio is in group 3. Truly group 4 IMO. But I’ll leave it unless others agree. Again, not a knock on performance, but rather perception.
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  39. #239

    Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Yes. I put them in group 3 for now, NOT DUE TO PERFORMANCE, but rather, because of market perception. Not a lot of people have heard them and those who have rank them with Pass, maybe a notch above. Let’s see if we have any comments here.

    Got to say, I really don’t think PS Audio is in group 3. Truly group 4 IMO. But I’ll leave it unless others agree. Again, not a knock on performance, but rather perception.
    I do not own any PS Audio gear, but I auditioned the BKS amp and two DACs and would concur.

    Not on par with Pass or Accustic Arts IMHO.

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  40. #240
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    I think the new Pilium is knocking the door of tier 1, if not firmly seated at the table. At the Magico showroom the M9s are driven by four Pilium Hercules monos and Alexander pre-amp. This might be performance more than perception as the word isn't out fully on Pilium yet.

    Not the last word in aesthetics, but it appears you can pay a premium for custom color. Picture is Leonidas integrated.


  41. #241
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Got to say, I really don’t think PS Audio is in group 3. Truly group 4 IMO. But I’ll leave it unless others agree.

    PS Audio is definitely not Tier 3... at best Tier 4... compared with Wyred 4 Sound and Bel Canto...
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  42. #242

    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Phishphan View Post
    German is my thing. I'm 98% German. Drive BMW. But this isn't German


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Neither are any of your system components. ;-)

    I guess German is your thing only for cars?
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  43. #243
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    PS Audio is definitely not Tier 3... at best Tier 4... compared with Wyred 4 Sound and Bel Canto...
    Agreed


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  44. #244
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobvin View Post
    I think the new Pilium is knocking the door of tier 1, if not firmly seated at the table. At the Magico showroom the M9s are driven by four Pilium Hercules monos and Alexander pre-amp. This might be performance more than perception as the word isn't out fully on Pilium yet.

    Not the last word in aesthetics, but it appears you can pay a premium for custom color. Picture is Leonidas integrated.

    What’s the prices of this line ?
    Did you listen to it ?


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  45. #245
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    The Alexander dual chassis pre-amp is US $49,900 (separate power supply)
    The Hercules monos are US $99,900/pr. (107kg per mono chassis!)
    Achilles stereo amp: US $49,900 (120kg!)

  46. #246
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobvin View Post
    The Alexander dual chassis pre-amp is US $49,900 (separate power supply)
    The Hercules monos are US $99,900/pr. (107kg per mono chassis!)
    Achilles stereo amp: US $49,900 (120kg!)
    You may want to update your signature. You will be displaying these in your home now right?


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  47. #247
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobvin View Post
    The Alexander dual chassis pre-amp is US $49,900 (separate power supply)
    The Hercules monos are US $99,900/pr. (107kg per mono chassis!)
    Achilles stereo amp: US $49,900 (120kg!)

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  48. #248
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by no32 View Post
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Thank you


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  49. #249

    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Hi Mike, one more observation regarding your tier list.

    I see you have split Pass between two tiers, with XS in tier 2 and X in tier 3.

    After hearing again the latest AudioNet scientist series, I think a similar split could be possible here with the Scientist series in tier 1 and the earlier models in tier 2.

    The Humboldt, Stern, and Heisenberg are really special IMHO.


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    Small rig: Naim UnitiServe/ Curious USB/ Tidal/ Linn Klimax DS3/ Shunyata Power cable/ Pass Labs INT-60/ Acoustic Zen Silver Reference II/ HiD Diamond 8/ Harbeth 30.2 40th Anniversary/ Shunyata Venom EU7 & Venom 3 HD.

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  50. #250
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    Re: Top Tier Amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobvin View Post
    I think the new Pilium is knocking the door of tier 1, if not firmly seated at the table. At the Magico showroom the M9s are driven by four Pilium Hercules monos and Alexander pre-amp. This might be performance more than perception as the word isn't out fully on Pilium yet.

    Not the last word in aesthetics, but it appears you can pay a premium for custom color. Picture is Leonidas integrated.

    very cool!!

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